"What's Hidden In The Vatican?" FACE-Off Bishop Barron Vs Michael Knowles

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What's Hidden In The Vatican?" FACE-Off Bishop Barron Vs Michael Knowles

The Michael Knowles Show by The Daily Wire hosted a compelling episode titled "What's Hidden In The Vatican?" released on August 10, 2025. This episode featured a spirited FACE-Off between Michael Knowles and Bishop Robert Barron, delving into the mysteries and lesser-known facts about the Vatican. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Introduction to the FACE-Off

The episode kicked off with Michael Knowles introducing the FACE-Off segment, where he competes against Bishop Robert Barron in a Vatican-themed trivia game. Facilitated by Michaela, their daughter, the showdown aimed to test their knowledge about Vatican City, its history, and its secrets.

Notable Quote:

Michael Knowles [02:09]: "Ben, thanks for having me on my own show. How does a Protestant know about the third secret of Fatima? I didn't know you knew what that was Google."

2. Vatican Trivia Challenge

Michaela presented a series of trivia questions related to Vatican City. The questions ranged from the time required to walk around the city's borders to the contents of the Vatican Library. The competition was lighthearted, with both participants showcasing their expertise and occasional humor.

Key Moments:

• Walking Around Vatican City:

  • Michaela [03:30]: "If you walked around the full border of Vatican City, how long would it take you to walk at a brisk pace?"
  • Bishop Barron [04:16] chose option B (40 minutes), which was correct.

• Construction of St. Peter's Basilica:

  • Michaela [04:55]: "How long did it take to build the current St. Peter's Basilica?"
  • Bishop Barron [05:03] correctly answered D (120 years).

• Vatican Library Holdings:

  • Michaela [05:37]: "Roughly how many printed books and manuscripts are housed in the Vatican library and Apostolic Archive combined?"
  • Both Michael and Bishop Barron selected D (1.1 million), which was accurate.

• Grand Colonnade Design:

  • Michaela [30:06]: "Which artist designed the grand colonnade that surrounds St. Peter's Square?"
  • Both correctly identified Gian Lorenzo Bernini.

3. Unveiling Vatican Conspiracy Theories

A significant portion of the discussion centered around popular but unproven conspiracy theories related to the Vatican Archives. Questions included myths about the Vatican housing a time machine, evidence of extraterrestrials, the Lost Gospel of Jesus, and the Ark of the Covenant.

Notable Quotes:

Michaela [02:21]: "Which of the following is a popular but unproven conspiracy theory about the Vatican archive?"

Bishop Barron [10:16]: "I think it's the Ark of the Covenant."

Michael and Bishop Barron debated these theories, ultimately focusing on the most plausible—the Ark of the Covenant. Bishop Barron expressed skepticism about the alien theory, stating, "The Vatican does not have aliens, correct? There's no."

4. The Significance of Relics in Catholicism

The conversation transitioned to the importance of relics within the Catholic tradition. Michael shared personal anecdotes about receiving relics of St. Jerome and St. Thomas Aquinas, highlighting their role in spiritual growth and prayer life.

Key Insights:

• Historical Reverence for Relics:

  • Bishop Barron [16:39] emphasized the ancient practice: "It's an extension of the incarnational principle. Right. That God really became one of us."

• Modern Perceptions:

  • Michael observed a decline in the reverence for relics among modern Catholics, contrasting it with historical practices.

• Personal Experiences:

  • Both participants shared experiences related to relics, underscoring their enduring significance.

5. Promotion of Upcoming Content: "The Pope and the Secret Vatican Files of World War II"

Michael took the opportunity to promote a new docu-series titled "The Pope and the Secret Vatican Files of World War II," slated to premiere on August 13 exclusively on The Daily Wire. The series aims to rehabilitate the reputation of Pope Pius XII by uncovering truths from the recently opened Vatican wartime archives.

Notable Quote:

Michael Knowles [21:04]: "With unprecedented access to the Vatican's wartime archives, we uncover what really happened and why the truth was buried for so long."

Bishop Barron expressed support for the series, acknowledging the "great calumny against Pius XII," and underscored the importance of presenting a balanced historical narrative.

6. Theotokos and Catholic Doctrine

The discussion delved into the theological title "Theotokos" (Mother of God) bestowed upon Mary, addressing common Protestant misunderstandings. Bishop Barron clarified the doctrine established at the Council of Ephesus, emphasizing its foundational role in Christology.

Notable Quotes:

Bishop Barron [26:26]: "Mary says, from this day, all generations will call me blessed. That's the biblical witness that she's predicting, encouraging all generations to call her blessed."

Michael Knowles [26:26]: "There’s no way to resolve modern debate. If we can't even resolve debates from the Council of Ephesus, for goodness' sakes, how are we gonna get to the modern stuff?"

7. Continued Vatican Trivia and Light-Hearted Banter

The trivia segment continued with questions about the Vatican's art collection, popes' burial sites, and the Vatican's modern amenities. The friendly competition highlighted Bishop Barron's extensive knowledge and Michael's humorous attempts to keep up.

Key Moments:

• Vatican Art Collection:

  • Michaela asked about the number of artworks housed in the Vatican Museums.
  • Both underestimated the vastness, with Bishop Barron guessing 1 million and Michaela revealing the actual number to be around 70,000.

• Paul VI Auditorium:

  • Discussed the modern design and seating capacity of the Paul VI Auditorium, with Bishop Barron sharing his personal experiences during synods.

8. Final Reflections and Closing Remarks

As the episode neared its conclusion, Michael encouraged listeners to engage with Catholic traditions, sacraments, and resources like Bishop Barron's Word on Fire. The friendly exchange underscored mutual respect and the shared goal of enlightening the audience about the Vatican's rich history and ongoing influence.

Notable Quote:

Michael Knowles [36:02]: "I can very sincerely say that you should all... go to church and you should avail yourself of the sacraments."

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Conclusion

"What's Hidden In The Vatican?" provided listeners with an engaging blend of trivia, theological discussion, and insider insights into the Vatican's storied past and present. The dynamic between Michael Knowles and Bishop Robert Barron offered both educational value and entertaining banter, making complex subjects accessible and intriguing. Whether unraveling conspiracy theories or exploring deep-seated Catholic doctrines, the episode served as a comprehensive guide for anyone curious about the secrets and truths housed within the Vatican.

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Additional Resources:

• Upcoming Docu-Series: The Pope and the Secret Vatican Files of World War II premieres on August 13, 2025, exclusively on The Daily Wire.
• Word on Fire: Follow Bishop Robert Barron for more insights on Catholic teachings and traditions.

Transcript

[Ben Shapiro]

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[Michael Knowles]

These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer. During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.

[Michaela]

How do I balance all of this? Grief, responsibility?

[Michael Knowles]

How do you repair this kind of damage? My daughter Michaela guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives. Everyone has their own destiny. Everyone.

[Michaela]

Which of the following is a popular but unproven conspiracy theory about the Vatican archive? That they house a time machine. They contain proof that aliens existed on Earth. They hold the lost Gospel of Jesus. They house the Ark of the Covenant.

[Michael Knowles]

I've never heard the alien. That's kind of funny. That there's the Area 51.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The best is the Ark of the Covenant. If they really have the Ark of the Covenant, which is some plausibility.

[Michael Knowles]

The Vatican does not have aliens, correct? There's no.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Not that I know of.

[Michaela]

Yeah. In preparation for the Pope and the the Secret Vatican Files of World War II. Streaming exclusively on Daily Wire. Plus August 13th. We're stepping inside the smallest country in the world with some of the biggest secrets. Vatican City, our competitors. In one corner, Michael Knowles, who's here to uncover the real third secret of Fatima and promote his new documentary. And he's all out of promo scripts. And in the other corner, Bishop Robert Barron, a man who knows the Vatican and its secret archives so well, he might just break news and reveal lost secrets right here on this very show. Hopefully. Maybe. Please. I hope so. Let's get into it. This is Face Off Vatican Mysteries. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here.

[Michael Knowles]

Ben, thanks for having me on my own show. How does a Protestant know about the third secret of Fatima? I didn't know you knew what that was Google.

[Michaela]

You know, there's some wild, wild theories about it. And hopefully Bishop Barry can fill us in on, you know. How did you feel?

[Michael Knowles]

How did you feel? Before we get started, I have to ask about the premise here. The premise was you're gonna bring me on for Vatican trivia, and I have to play against His Excellency Bishop Robert Barron, not only a member of the episcopate, one of the most knowledgeable and scholarly men of the church today. Is that right?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah, but not about Vatican City. So I've been to Vatican City, but all the details of it. I don't know how good I'll be.

[Michael Knowles]

Which subway line goes to. I don't know.

[Michaela]

Actually, you may have an event. I don't think Michael's been there. Michael, have you actually been to Vatican City?

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, I have. Thank you very much. But you may have. Not recently.

[Michaela]

All right, so the rules. I'll read a question. You'll have 30 seconds to write down your response at the end. Whoever loses will do a commercial for the other person.

[Michael Knowles]

All right?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Okay.

[Michaela]

Are you ready?

[Michael Knowles]

What is the commercial for? A bishop? I don't know. Like I'm going to promote the succession from the apostles.

[Michaela]

Well, the various books, the fantastic books that Bishop Baron has written.

[Michael Knowles]

Fire. Okay, fair enough.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

We'll figure it out.

[Michaela]

Yeah. All right, here we go. Question 1. How many of the 95 theses can you write? Let's go. I'm just kidding.

[Michael Knowles]

How many do I choose to write? How about that?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

We have to write them down.

[Michaela]

I don't know any of them. So, anyway, how many do I choose to burn? Here's the real one. Okay, question one. If you walked around the full border of Vatican City, how long would it take you to walk At a brisk pace?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Go ahead. I rode my bike around Vatican City at the end of a trip from Paris to Rome with this friend of mine. And we did a victory lap around Vatican City. So I can answer by. So this is by foot, though, huh?

[Michaela]

At a brisk pace.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

By foot, we have multiple choices. Go ahead.

[Michaela]

A, 10 minutes, B, 40 minutes. C, 90 minutes. D, two hours. All right.

[Michael Knowles]

And you know, I'm a New Yorker, so you gotta shave. I'm doing it in New York time. That shaves off 10%.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

You ready?

[Michaela]

I'm ready. Still riding. All right, Mike, what do you have?

[Michael Knowles]

I would say 90 minutes around, Mr. Barrett.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I said B.

[Michaela]

B is correct.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right.

[Michaela]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

This is not a good start.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, I did ride my bike around.

[Michaela]

I can tell you that.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

It took about 10 minutes maybe.

[Michaela]

Yeah. Actually, Vatican City is only about 0.6 miles around. Smaller than most. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Is it really?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right?

[Michael Knowles]

Huh? Okay, that's bad.

[Michaela]

All right, number two. How long did it take to build the current St. Peter's Basilica? A, 151 years. B, 59 years. C, 88. D, 120. What did you write, Michael?

[Michael Knowles]

Well, it's the letter. No, I didn't do a number. You gave letters.

[Michaela]

What is it?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I said a. I said D.120.

[Michaela]

Bishop Barron's running away with this. It is D.120.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, man, that was my second choice. Do I get partial credit?

[Michaela]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

This is bad.

[Michaela]

Construction began in 1506 under Pope Julius II.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah. And then early, what, 1600s, they finished it.

[Michaela]

Yeah. 1626.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. I'm going to be demoted to whatever is below laity. I don't know if there's anything. But I might. I don't know. I don't have any.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Altar boy.

[Michaela]

Altar. All right, Roughly.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Go ahead.

[Michaela]

Roughly how many printed books and manuscripts are housed in the Vatican library?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, my gosh.

[Michaela]

This is roughly. A, 40,000. B, 250,000. C, 800,000. D, 1.1 million. Well, Bishop Berry, what do you have?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I had D. I chose the highest one.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, thank goodness. Yeah. All right, so we rise or fall together on this one.

[Michaela]

I said D. That was smart, Michael, because you're both correct.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, all right.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I figured the highest number.

[Michaela]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael, I don't know why you're doing so. I think you should have really, like, prayed before we started doing this.

[Michael Knowles]

Personally, I do. I pray a lot. Not enough. Not enough.

[Michaela]

Certainly, you know, it would help you pray more.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, that was a good segue that I totally missed. Go check out Hallow right now. You gotta go to hallow.com knowles, this August, I want you to join me for the St. Michael's Lent Challenge on Hallowed. That doesn't refer to me. It refers to the Archangel, actually, who boots the devil down to hell. It's a 40 day journey of prayer, fasting, and real spiritual growth inspired by Saint Francis of Assisi's devotion to Saint Michael the Archangel. Now, this is not a typical self help program. St. Michael's Lent is an ancient tradition that calls us to virtue, sacrifice, and sanctity. You will tackle the seven deadly sins head on. Pride, anger, lust, envy, sloth, gluttony, and avarice. With insights from Fulton Sheen's Victory over Vice, read by Chris Stefanik and Father Isaiah. You will hear honest, sometimes hilarious stories from people like comedian Shane Smith about battling vice in real life. Plus, you will journey with the real St. Francis, not the sanitized hippie version with little birds, you know, chirping in his ear. We're talking about the bold, radical saint who was completely in love with God. The challenge includes the Litany of St Michael Gospel reflections and a powerful closing novena as we approach Michaelmas on September 29th. This is your chance to armor up spiritually. If you're tired of soft, secular, squishy approaches and ready to grow in grace through real spiritual discipline, join St. Michael's Lent. It starts August 13th. On the Hallow app, get three months [e-mail] knowles.

[Michaela]

All right, number four. In miles. In miles. Okay, how long is the shelving space inside the Vatican Library and Apostolic Archive combined? This would be the closest without going over.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

In miles.

[Michaela]

In miles. Closest without going over.

[Michael Knowles]

There's no multiple choice. It's just.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

And the Apostolic Archive is what we used to call the secret. The Secret Archive.

[Michaela]

That's correct. Well, have you seen it, Nate? Oh, Bishop Aaron. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

No, I haven't. They don't let me into.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I've been into the parts of it. Yeah.

[Michaela]

So he'll probably have a better guess on this than you.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No, but that's a total guess.

[Michael Knowles]

How many miles?

[Michaela]

You were, like, counting up the shells, like. All right, if we could see how.

[Michael Knowles]

Many miles is the entire Vatican Library and Apostolic Archive combined. How many times around Vatican City does he go? I guess is the question.

[Michaela]

All right, ten seconds.

[Michael Knowles]

Ten seconds. By the way, DW's budget has to be pretty weak. You didn't even get me a marker with ink in it.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah, my marker's very good here at Ward On Fire.

[Michael Knowles]

I think we need to hire some of the producer from Word on fire.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I know.

[Michael Knowles]

3.1.

[Michaela]

He said 3.1.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, I said five total.

[Michaela]

Guess the correct answer is over. 50 miles takes it again.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I win. Okay, 50 miles. Seriously?

[Michaela]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, how high are they stacking them? You said all the way around is 0.6 miles, so how high are those walls?

[Michaela]

There must be so many shells running through there. In the archives.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All that matters is that I won.

[Michael Knowles]

That's anything that anyone's gonna remember. I'm glad I got one point that Bishop Barron also got. That's good.

[Michaela]

That's good.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah.

[Michaela]

What's the current score?

[Michael Knowles]

A billion to one five one?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No, it's three to one four one, Bishop. Okay, who's counting?

[Michaela]

Yeah, here we go. Which of the following is a popular but unproven conspiracy theory about the Vatican archives? A, that they house a time machine. B, they contain proof that aliens existed on Earth. C, they hold the Lost Gospel of Jesus. D, it has the Ark of the Covenant? Or E, all of the above.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

So a popular but unproven conspiracy theory.

[Michaela]

Yes, Popular but unproven.

[Michael Knowles]

It has to be popular, though.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Okay, I think I'll say d the.

[Michael Knowles]

Ark of the Covenant.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I'm gonna say all of the above.

[Michael Knowles]

Don't do this to me, Ben. Don't do this to me.

[Michaela]

And it's e all of the above.

[Michael Knowles]

No, it's not. What are you talking about? No.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Cause I've heard at least a couple of those. That's why the Ark of the Covenant for sure. And the Abraham alien life and all that. So I figured, why not all the above?

[Michael Knowles]

I've never heard the alien. That's kind of funny. That there's the Area 51 of Italy.

[Michaela]

Okay, Bishop Baron, can you spill some tea on the time machine? Because this one actually has some legs and some stories behind it. Have you looked into this at all? Yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No, I must say, that one I don't really know. The time machine.

[Michaela]

Yeah. There was like a cardinal that left, and then he wrote, drew what it looked like and claims that they had this time machine down in the basement. It was wild. This is wild story.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The Vatican hasn't.

[Michaela]

Yeah, that the Vatican hasn't. There's a drawing of it.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The best is the Ark of the Covenant. If they really have the Ark of the Covenant, which is some plausibility.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Yes.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

If it was still around the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. And that's the question.

[Michael Knowles]

Don't they say if the Ark of the Covenant still exists anywhere? It's either in the Vatican or. Doesn't Ethiopia claim to have it?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Doesn't Ethiopia? Yeah, yeah. In fact, not long ago, I was with an Ethiopian priest and we talked about that and he said, of course we have it in Ethiopia.

[Michael Knowles]

Did you. I wouldn't want you to call your friend a liar. Do you find. Do you have any credence to these theories or.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I think it was lost around the time of Jeremiah and we don't know where it is. I think either he hid it someplace and it remains hidden, or it was destroyed at the time of the captivity. That's our best guess. There's the Tanis theory, because, of course, Jeremiah goes to Egypt and likely died there, was killed there. Did he take it with him? Was it taken with exiles? Who knows?

[Michael Knowles]

Interesting. We have the new Ark of the Covenant. Anyway, so it's just a historical curiosity as far as I'm concerned.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

You mean we have the true Ark?

[Michael Knowles]

The true ark. The true ark, yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah, right.

[Michaela]

Do you know where Ben Shapiro thinks it is?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

Where does he think.

[Michaela]

He thinks you guys have it. He thinks it's in the Vatican.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, I kind of remember. I think he said that On a yes or no once he did.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah, well, it's a theory. And if it were still around Jerusalem when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem, they certainly would have taken it, and they'd taken it back to Rome, and then the Church plausibly might have gotten hold of it, but who knows?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, okay.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

But Mary's the true Ark of the Covenant.

[Michael Knowles]

That's right. That's the most important thing.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

It's all that matters.

[Michael Knowles]

It's all that matters. It's really all I care about. With regard to this question, though, I do have to ask. The Vatican does not have aliens, correct?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Not that I know of. Yeah, I met some weird people in the Vatican.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I don't know about aliens, though.

[Michaela]

And what we also know is that Michael's still currently getting destroyed as we go into number six.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

That's all that matters.

[Michael Knowles]

You don't need to update. I remember. I remember. You don't need to update me.

[Michaela]

All right, which pope commissioned Michelangelo to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? Is it A, Pope Innocent iii? B, Pope Leo X, C, Pope Julius ii? D, Pope Clement vii. All right.

[Michael Knowles]

Man, this is so embarrassing. This is so embarrassing. I'm a Philistine. I am.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Wow.

[Michaela]

Well, what do you have, Michael?

[Michael Knowles]

Let's let His Excellency go first.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Okay? It's C. Was that Julius?

[Michaela]

Yeah, Julius.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, thank goodness. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. I thought so, and I didn't want to be laughed out of the room. Michael, you thought it was Julius. I remembered Julius.

[Michaela]

Okay. Yeah. All right. What's hidden beneath St. Peter's Basil?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, sorry. We're on the next question.

[Michaela]

Go ahead. There's something else you wanted to add. You want to give Michael another lesson?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No.

[Michaela]

All right. What is hidden beneath St. Peter's Basilica?

[Michael Knowles]

Ah, you'll have to be more specific, I think.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Do we have options, or we just have to say what it is?

[Michaela]

No, it's whatever. If it's this answer.

[Michael Knowles]

Is this, like, however many things you can name, you get that many points.

[Michaela]

Well, this is, like, the main thing. If you Google what's underneath St. Peter's Basilica, this is what comes up. There's two possible answers I'll take. All right, what do you have, Michael?

[Michael Knowles]

He said the relics of the first pope, St. Peter.

[Michaela]

Bishop Baron.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, I say the scavi, which means the excavations under St. Peter's the correct.

[Michaela]

Answer that I have is first century necropolis and the bones of St. Peter.

[Michael Knowles]

Hey. I mean, so Bishop Baron is literally correct. I get the point.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

That's what it uncovered. Was that first century cemetery. So I think I deserve credit for that.

[Michael Knowles]

But your Excellency, Mr. Davies is not cultured enough to have used that nice foreign word. So can I get double points for that instead?

[Michaela]

Yeah, because that word could mean whatever you tell me. Because I have no idea my Latin is so bad in Italian. I believe you that it's underneath there. So we can take that.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I deserve some credit for that answer. I'm not going to rest until I get some credit for that answer, you know.

[Michaela]

Sounds good.

[Michael Knowles]

I was actually down there.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Michael, have you been to the Scavi tour?

[Michael Knowles]

I've never been.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

It's spectacular. They take you down there and it does indeed reveal this first century cemetery with little roads and graves. And they lead you finally to where they are pretty sure they found the tomb of St. Peter.

[Michael Knowles]

That's amazing. Actually, just yesterday I was having lunch with a friend of mine who, you know, in recent decades, Catholics don't seem to care as much about relics as we used to. For the first time, roughly 2,000 years of church history. And so priests and other people have given her relics. And I actually saw what purports to be a relic of St. Peter and she has some certificates of authenticity and things like that. But it struck me because modern Christians and even Catholics today, they look at relics like it's kind of weird or idolatrous or superstitious or something. But it seems to me Christians have always had a great reverence for relics.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Go back to the acts of the Apostles. You can see people going up to St. Paul and touching him with handkerchiefs and all that. No, it's a very ancient practice. It's all over the church fathers, the ancient church. It's an extension of the incarnational principle. Right. That God really became one of us. And then the saints who are aligned to Christ, it's sort of a continuation of that incarnational principle. And so in reverencing the bones or the flesh or the remnants of saints, you know, we're reverencing Christ ultimately. I was just in France, we were filming on this cathedral documentary I'm doing. And in Amiens Cathedral is the relic of the skull of St. John the Baptist. It's like the front part of the skull which came down me in 1206 from Constantinople. And then, you know, so they were very big in the Middle Ages. People loved relics and still to this day talk to Catholics, they love collecting relics.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes. I was actually my friend who I had lunch with, she was very kind and gave me two first class relics. One of St. Jerome and one of St. Thomas Aquinas. And I was. You know, I said, that's so kind of you. And I found. I don't know, especially because I'm a revert. So I have to learn everything that I should have learned when I was 10. I find the veneration of relics is really helpful in my prayer life.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Can I tell you a story about the Thomas relic? So this is a year ago, March. I was in Rome for this conference on Aquinas. And we went down to Fossa Nova, where he died, and there was a great Mass. And Cardinal Perilin said the mass. He was a papabile in the recent election. And then. Right. I didn't even notice it till halfway through the mass. Right in front of the altar, they had the Fossa Nova skull. So the people there claim that when Thomas bones were moved to Toulouse, that's where most of them are now, in the south of France, they kept the skull because that's where he died in Fossa Nova. So they have it to this day. And it was brought by car through the city. And there's this photograph of the driver, and next to him is the skull of Aquinas. And then it was up in front of the altar. And it's very moving, you know, so there are two skulls competing for authenticity of Aquinas. And people say, well, he was so smart.

[Michael Knowles]

He needed two hands, but one could not have possibly held it.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right. So during the Mass, I remember just sort of noticing the skull of my great spiritual hero, Thomas Aquinas.

[Michael Knowles]

I had this thought, you know, in my office here, I have a Caravaggio St. Jerome, writing as a memento mori, that I should do my work so that I don't waste all my life. And then. And I found. I even put. When my friend gave me these relics, I thought, these are two wonderful relics to have when you're trying to write, because St. Jerome and St. Thomas are. They're definitely a little more prolific than me. I crank out three tweets. I'm based. Basically spent for the day.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No, they both are extraordinary, especially Aquinas. In a short career. He dies at 49, so his writing career is about 25 years. And he wrote a library of books at the highest level of literary and philosophical achievement. So, I mean, he's one of the great geniuses. Dictated to three or four secretaries simultaneously, like a chess master, you know, moving from chessboard to chessboard. He would dictate, you know, Aristotle commentary, a Bible commentary, part of the summa, and then a Sermon or something. And he would just go around like that, dictating. And they say in the afternoon, he took a little nap and would dictate in his sleep.

[Michael Knowles]

That is actually at the Daily Wire. That is how I do my tweets. I say, okay, talk about the American eagle genes ad you. And now you're going to. Yes, it's pretty impressive.

[Michaela]

I'm sorry that I even have to continue the game. It was so fascinating.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, I'm just trying to distract from my losing.

[Michaela]

Sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

I guess we're out of time.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Sorry to butt in.

[Michaela]

Well, I'm sure you just want to continue because you're winning by such a large margin, Bishop. Of course.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Let's continue.

[Michaela]

Yeah, we'll just knock this out. Number eight. What year did the name Vatican Secret Archives change to the Vatican Apostolic Archive? Close this without going over.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Without going to name the exact year.

[Michaela]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm gonna say without going over.

[Michaela]

The reasoning was citing the negative connotation of the word secret. They wanted to change.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't think secrets are bad. I think discretion is good, and people don't have enough of it these days.

[Michaela]

Bishop Barron.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I'm guessing 1985, during John Paul II's time.

[Michael Knowles]

I think it's more recent. I think it's 2013.

[Michaela]

Correct answer is 2019.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Michaela]

Really recent?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No way. 2019? That recently?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

I thought it was in the Francis Point.

[Michaela]

He did. Well, I mean, it makes sense because he's done so much research in the Secret Vatican Archives, especially during World War II. Actually, Michael, that's true.

[Michael Knowles]

And you can all watch that show the Pope and the The Secret Vatican Files of World War II at Daily Wire plus, August 13th. I want to share something that I'm very proud to have led here at Daily Wire. Plus, that is a new docu series that unco. One of the most distorted historical narratives of the modern age. It's called the Pope and the The Secret Vatican Files of World War II. For decades, Pope Pius XII, one of the most consequential men of the 20th century, one of the greatest men of the 20th century, has been slandered and condemned for his supposed silence during Hitler's rise and during Nazi atrocities. That narrative was always false. Now, with unprecedented access to the Vatican's wartime archives, we uncover what really happened and why the truth was buried for so long. Check out this teaser. History is written by the victors. But what if the victors got it wrong? For 80 years, the world has condemned one man as the Pope of silence, the man who stood by in the face of shocking evil. The can we trust the popular narrative even after all these years? This is not just a story about Hitler and the Holocaust. One of the worst lies ever told about the Catholic Church is what she did or did not do in one of modernity's darkest hours. Now, for the first time, the Vatican secret archive is open. And the truth is far more shocking than the fiction. Propagandists have peddled one story for decades, but now we can definitively know better. Join me in this four part series where we will discover the true story of Pope Pius XII, Hitler and the Second World War. The series premieres Wednesday, August 13, exclusively on Daily Wire. Looks like a great show.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I'm glad you're doing that because there's a great calumny against Pius XII and against a lot of Catholics at that time. So I'm glad you're doing that.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. I was thrilled when we could release this because of all the maligned men of the 20th century, some people earned their reputation. But Pius XII has just really been slandered, in my view. And so I hope that people can enjoy it when it comes out.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No. Good. I think that's important to rehabilitate him because it was a great calumny against him. I was just in Munster, Germany, before Rome. I was in Munster and I went to the cathedral there, and there's the grave of Cardinal von Galen and his nickname, he was known as the lion of Munster because he spoke out so strongly against Hitler. So there were some very courageous figures, not to mention the great martyrs like Edith Stein and people like that. So, no, it's important to round out that story, certainly.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes. And you can round it out in your own estimation, everyone out there, if you just tune in Dailywire. How's that?

[Michaela]

That's correct. And speaking of popes who have passed, how many popes are buried underneath St. Peter's Basilica? Would it be A, 5, B, 12, C, 45, D over 90?

[Michael Knowles]

It's like the way you said D makes me think it's D.

[Michaela]

You know me too well. It is D, gentlemen.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

As well. So we both got it. Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

All right. That's good.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I maintain my lead.

[Michaela]

You do, by a wide margin. All right, number 10.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

There's a sign there. They say, oh, here are the popes buried in St Peter. This huge line. So that's why I knew it was a big number.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, I was just. I was in Rome very briefly with my family about a month ago, and it was so brief, in fact, that we didn't really have Time to get to the Vatican. We were staying on the other side of the city, but we were near the Papal Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. So I said, okay, good. We had to fly out Sunday morning, so we went to a vigil mass on Saturday, and we're there. And I said, man, this is a huge line to get into Mass. I'm so glad people are showing up to go to Mass. It's a jubilee year. Maybe that's. But then I remembered, oh, Pope Francis is entombed here. And so there was a separate line just to go see the pope's grave.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

1. Yesterday was the feast of the dedication of St. Mary Major.

[Michael Knowles]

That's right. That's right.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

And it was Our lady of the Snows. You know that story about.

[Michael Knowles]

No, a little bit, but not really.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

August 5th, you're at the height of Roman tropical summer. And so way back when, when they were designing that building, snow fell anomalously on August 5th at the outline of the basilica. That's the story. So she's known as Our lady of the Snows.

[Michael Knowles]

And they do in the liturgy, right? Don't they drop rose petals? Yes, yeah, yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

And that was built right after the Council of Ephesus when Mary was declared Theotokos, Mother of God. So it's the first great church in the west dedicated to Mary. But that's an important kind of theological point that church is making. And Francis loved it. He visited there all the time, and that's where he's buried.

[Michael Knowles]

There's also a point where sometimes when I'm chatting with my many Protestant friends, some of them are more pro Mary than others. Some are decidedly anti Mary. But sometimes you'll hear say, well, don't you know she's the Mother of God? I mean, don't you think you should. You should show respect to your. Your degenerate friend Billy Bob? You're nice to his mother. Shouldn't you be nice to the mother of our Lord? And they said, well, she's the mother of Jesus, not the Mother of God.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

That's the Nestorian heresy, though that was what they thought about at the Council of Ephesus, because Nestoria said just that. Call her if you want Christotokos. She's the mother of Christ, or Anthropotokos. She's the mother of the human nature. But the Church said, no, she's properly called Theotokos, bearer of God. So it's making an important Christological point if you believe in the divinity of Jesus. Right? Jesus is divine. Mary's his Mother. Well, then she has to be called Mother of God, as sort of surprising as that title might be. But that's the ancient church. We're not talking the Reformation. That's in the early 5th century. They're making that determination. But also go out to the Bible. I say to my Protestant friends, Mary says, from this day, all generations will call me blessed. Well, that's the biblical witness that she's predicting, encouraging. All generations will call her blessed. So, you know that's right.

[Michael Knowles]

And there's no way to resolve modern debate. If we can't even resolve debates from the Council of Ephesus, for goodness sakes, how are we gonna get to the modern stuff? You know, we gotta. All right, we figured that one out. Now we move on.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, that's settled doctrine, and that's why you should look at the council. That's set old doctrine. There's no more debate about that. Like, you can't say, let's go back behind Chalcedon. Maybe Jesus wasn't the hypostatic union of two nations and one person. No, you have to say that. You can further amplify it and deepen it, but you have to say that. So Mary the mother of God, that's settled Christian doctrine.

[Michael Knowles]

That's right.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Luther loved Mary. Luther got very strong things to say about Mary.

[Michael Knowles]

Absolutely. No, I think I'm noticing even in this moment of the culture we're in where a lot of people are becoming Catholic, a little bit Eastern Orthodox, too, but a lot of Catholic. I've noticed even many of my pretty hardcore Protestant Reformed friends, they're coming to realize that there's something to venerating the mother of God.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, didn't Charlie Kirk just do that? Didn't he just say something nice about the importance of venerating Mary? But again, that's a deeply ancient Christian practice and it's grounded in people like Luther. And I'm not sure about Calvin and Mary, but Luther certainly had strong things to say about Mary.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, that's the thing. I don't point to the Protestant revolutionaries most of the time. But if they back up the point I'm trying to make, I do cite them. I'm happy to do it.

[Michaela]

In that case, another hotly debated topic is the Vatican's top 45 films. That's the next question. Which of these films was not officially screened or included on the Vatican's list of 45 important films? Okay, it was not. A, the Godfather. B, Flowers of St. Francis. C, Schindler's List. D, 2001. A Space Odyssey.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Which was not included on their list.

[Michaela]

Not on the 45.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right.

[Michaela]

Moon.

[Michael Knowles]

What was the second one?

[Michaela]

The flowers of St. Francis.

[Michael Knowles]

It'd be kind of weird if that were the only one they didn't include. You know, they put the Godfather. They put a mob movie on there, but they don't. Hmm.

[Michaela]

Bishop. Baron seems very confident. Baron? Yeah.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Not really. I'm just kidding.

[Michael Knowles]

I said C. Schindler's List.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I said, A, the Godfather.

[Michaela]

The correct answer is A, the Godfather.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right.

[Michael Knowles]

It's not. It's just that Schindler's List is not. It's just. I'm not saying it's, like, a terrible movie. It's just, to me, it doesn't rise to the level of greatness of a Godfather or.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I vaguely remembered that list when it came out. That's right. I think I remembered Schindler's List being on it. Yeah. Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

Ugh. That's brutal. I think Klavin hates that movie. He says it totally misunderstands the entirety of the war. I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but I just did. So too bad if. Drew. If you disagree with that Schindler's List, correct me. Yeah. Schindler's List. Yeah.

[Michaela]

I've never been to the Vatican either. No idea. These questions. Number 11.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I've been to the Vatican.

[Michaela]

Huh?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Go ahead.

[Michaela]

Which artist designed the grand colonnade that surrounds St. Peter's Square? A, Michelangelo. B, Dante Bramante. My Italian's great. C, Raphael. D, Gian Lorenzo Bernini.

[Michael Knowles]

Please tell me it's Bernini. Is it Bernini?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

It's Bernini.

[Michaela]

It is, in fact, Bernini.

[Michael Knowles]

When you stumbled over Bramante.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

There's no ground on me.

[Michaela]

Number 12, which of these does the Vatican have? A, its own telescope and its astronomical observatory. B, its own McDonald's. C, its own spa. D, its own Starbucks.

[Michael Knowles]

There's such good coffee in Italy, why would they need a Starbucks? You know I love Starbucks.

[Michaela]

But only one of these things is in the Vatican. What do you have, Michael?

[Michael Knowles]

Say it's the Golden Arches. They don't have a McDonald's.

[Michaela]

This is the one that does have.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, that it does. You said that it does have.

[Michaela]

This is what it does have.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, at the observatory.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

That's what I had. The observatory. Which is out of Castle Gandolfo. It's not at the Vatican, but it's considered Vatican territory.

[Michael Knowles]

That makes more sense. I was wondering where the Vatican started.

[Michaela]

Isn't it in, like, Phoenix? Or, like, the actual telescopes in Phoenix?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, there's one in Phoenix, too, or outside of Tucson. But the big one's the Castle Gandolfo.

[Michael Knowles]

That makes so much. I've said I've been to the Vatican. I don't know, three times maybe. I never got the Vatican quarter pounder. The Vatican. The big vat.

[Michaela]

I thought the spa might throw you off, but. And you're such a big Starbucks fan.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I was like, maybe.

[Michaela]

Maybe.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Michaela]

All right. All right. Number 13. This is a true or false. Can the Vatican's telescope see the Apollo mission equipment on the moon?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The Apollo. Oh, like the remnants of the Apollo.

[Michaela]

Yeah, the landing equipment.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Can the telescope see that?

[Michaela]

Can the Vatican telescope see that?

[Michael Knowles]

Of our alleged trip to the moon?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Michaela]

We got Michael. Yes, Mr. Baron?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I'm gonna say it was false so they can't see that.

[Michaela]

That's correct. False. But it's not just Yalls telescope. Even Earth's most powerful telescope can't resolve that small thing.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I was trying to imagine a telescope being able to see to that degree.

[Michaela]

Oh.

[Michael Knowles]

So. All right. So that backs up my first insinuation. It was obviously totally fake. Right. We can't even see with the telescope.

[Michaela]

All right. What is the name of this building? Inside Vatican City? What is the name of this building?

[Michael Knowles]

I hope that someday the name will be the former building that stood on this location when it's renovated and this.

[Michaela]

Is one of the more modern buildings, but there's always Microsoft.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I know that building very well.

[Michaela]

Yeah. It's known for its modern design and massive seating capacity. Over 6,000.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't think I'm at any risk of becoming pope. But if I ever do, that will be known as a ruin, actually, and will be rebuilt.

[Michaela]

Technically, you could. Right, Michael? You could.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Theoretically, I would baptize Catholic male, but.

[Michael Knowles]

I would then have to have holy orders, wouldn't I, once I was elected.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I have to ordain you. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

My wife would not be. She actually might be thrilled. I don't. You're right. That might be a good vacation plan for you. Okay. You go to Rome.

[Michaela]

What is the name? Michael, what do you have?

[Michael Knowles]

Is that Paul VI auditorium?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The Paul VI audience hall?

[Michaela]

That is correct. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. All right. All right.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I spent two months there. The synod, the last two Octobers. I spent six days a week, eight hours a day in that hall. It's not my favorite place.

[Michael Knowles]

No. You know, I'm not asking you to tell tales out of school or anything, your excellency, but there's a lot of great art and architecture in the history of the catholic church. I don't think that the Paul VI audience hall makes the first 2,000 buildings list.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

So what it was of its time, you know, like Paul VI himself was a devotee of modern art and thought, you know, let's bring the modern sensibility. And he knew people like Jacques Maritin, who very much appreciated, like, you know, Georges Rouel and people like that. So he did have, I think he had good taste in modern art, but that was so much of its time where it looks like, you know, something from the space age. And it's, to me, not a very warm space. And I don't like the. That kind of metallic sculpture behind where the pope sits. So, no, I'm not the biggest fan of it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, to me, the good taste in modern art is kind of like being the best basketball player among the pygmies, you know? But listen, die gusti bust nu disputante mest. As far as I'm concerned.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

No, I think some of, like, go to the east wing of the national gallery in Washington. You'll see some of, like, the early Picassos, like, from the 1920s, and some of them are very fine. But. Yeah, that hall, to me, does not speak the best of the catholic artistic tradition.

[Michael Knowles]

The most diplomatic phrase I've ever heard in my life.

[Michaela]

Well, speaking of art, the last question. Roughly how many.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

The last one?

[Michaela]

Yeah. Roughly how many works of art are housed in the Vatican museum collection? Closest without going over.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

All right, you have to give the number. How many works of art are in there?

[Michaela]

And we know your least favorite. What about these other ones? All right, Mike, what do you have?

[Michael Knowles]

I said aleph nal accountably infinite number of works of art is that.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

You get no credit for that.

[Michael Knowles]

Is it highest without going over?

[Bishop Robert Barron]

How did you go? I said 1 million, simply as a guess. What's the answer?

[Michaela]

Around 70,000. Only 20,000 are on public display.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

But the rest, 70,000 is all there is. I tell you much more than that.

[Michaela]

20,000 are on display. There's other ones that are hidden away.

[Michael Knowles]

So if it's closest without going over, then both a million and countable infinity are. So then we're even on that one.

[Michaela]

You are even.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah, we both went over. Okay.

[Michaela]

Which means bishop baron ran away with it. So, Michael, would you please give us a 32nd command?

[Michael Knowles]

Hold on. You used to do a thing, Ben, where you'd say, whoever won, you say you could double or nothing on a bonus question. What happened to that?

[Michaela]

I don't think there's any chance that bishop Baron would want to gamble away amazing victory. Truly astonishing.

[Michael Knowles]

You mean because he's an intelligent man.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Yeah.

[Michaela]

This is the greatest victory ever had on Face Off.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[Michaela]

That's bad.

[Michael Knowles]

I think I. I may have automatically.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Just write it back again.

[Michael Knowles]

I might have automatically become a Lutheran because of that.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

I.

[Michael Knowles]

That's bad. I gotta. Oh, man, I gotta. I gotta put in a little work next time. Well, in any case, I can very sincerely say that you should all. Well, you should go to church and you should avail yourself of the sacraments. And, you know, that's Bishop Barron's main job. But his side hustles are really great, too. Word on Fire is absolutely magnificent. All of the lectures, all of the series, all of the books. The Word on Fire Bible is wonderful. I have editions of it with the Epistles and with the Gospels in my home. And so you should go check out all of that. I don't. Somehow. I'm not a bishop. I'm not a priest. I don't. All I do is this. And somehow Bishop Barron manages to produce more content, marvelously compelling content, and also manages to do his day job as well, which is very impressive.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Well, thank you for that. That was very nice.

[Michael Knowles]

My pleasure. It is great. I do have, you know, I have a picture of it somewhere on my bookshelf. I have a little statue of Dante. I have certain little, you know, icons and relics and things. And I got the Word on Fire Bible. Right. Two books of it right there.

[Bishop Robert Barron]

Beautiful. Thank you for that.

[Michaela]

Well, there you have it. If you haven't already, go follow Bishop Robert Barron at Bishop Barron and subscribe to the Word on Fire show. And don't forget to grab a copy of what Christians Believe. Understanding the Nicene Creed, available wherever books are sold. Drop us a comment. Let us know who you'd like to have on next and what topic to cover in the next episode of Face Off. See you then.