Podcast Summary: "Would You Be Catholic or Protestant? | YES or NO: Ben Shapiro"

The Michael Knowles Show | The Daily Wire | August 30, 2025
Guest: Ben Shapiro

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In this spirited and irreverent episode, Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro play “Yes or No,” a rapid-fire card game prompting candid discussions about religion, American political identity, conspiracy theories, technology, and culture. The central focus is a cheeky but thoughtful exploration of whether, if Ben ever became Christian, he would lean Catholic or Protestant—offering wide-ranging commentary along the way. The episode is notable for its playful tone, sharp intellectual banter, and willingness to wade into cultural and moral controversies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Game Format and Banter

• Mechanics: Each round, one host privately answers a Yes/No question, the other guesses, and points are awarded for matching answers, all while enjoying some drinks (with humorous debate about martinis, whiskey, and kosherness).
• Atmosphere: The tone is informal—Michael jokes, “No matter what, I’ll probably drink,” (01:42)—but underpinned by earnest intellectual exchange.

2. Religion and Rituals

• Politics & Faith:
  • Question on whether a Catholic candidate would have to "kiss the wall" (Western Wall in Jerusalem) if running for U.S. President highlights intersecting religious and political performances in America (03:31-05:36).
  • Ben: “I don’t have to. If you’re Jewish, no one has to kiss the wall. It’s not even a Jewish thing.” (04:24)
  • Michael: Suggests kissing the wall is more about appealing to Evangelicals than to Jews (04:43).
  • Ben: Explains the American ritual is “more playing to [Evangelical Protestants] than…Jews” (05:36).
• Dual Loyalty:
  • Discusses whether Michael has “dual loyalty to the Vatican.” Ben: “You have sole loyalty to the Vatican.” (07:42)
  • Layered identities are unpacked: religious, national, familial (09:14-09:37).
  • Ben: “Every Christian in America…would say Christian first [before American] … The fact that’s somehow become radically controversial is because people make gigantic category errors.” (09:44)

3. Catholicism vs Protestantism

• The Central Question:
  • “If you were Christian, would you lean Catholic or Protestant?” (18:15+)
  • Ben acknowledges he’d lean Catholic: “Catholicism is more similar to Judaism than Protestantism, yes, by far.” (19:29)
  • Ben argues Catholicism’s hierarchy, ritual, and emphasis on works feels familiar to a devout Jew, drawing parallels to discussions he’s had with both Catholics and Protestants.
  • Notable moment:
    • Michael: “If you converted, you would not just convert ’cause you got sick of doing the wrapping … you would do it because you’d be convinced that the most Jewish thing to be would be Christian.” (21:04)
    • Ben: “That’s a totally fair argument … If I were to convert because I was actively attracted by the story of Jesus and His divinity, then I would probably end up Catholic.” (21:18)
  • Ben’s rationale is nuanced: his turn to Christianity would be a matter of theological conviction, not ease or ritual avoidance (21:31-21:41).
  • Michael jokes about Protestantism: “If you become Episcopalian, that’s just twice the liturgy, half the guilt of the Catholics.” (23:32)

4. Conspiracy Theory Skepticism

• Moon Landing vs. Macron Rumor:

  • “Is it more likely that the moon landing was faked than Brigitte Macron has a penis?” (24:04)
  • Both agree the moon landing happened; questioning such is a kind of “rip on America” (29:43).
  • Ben: “I’m deeply annoyed by virtually all conspiracy theories because they assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.” (27:23)
  • Both hosts reflect that involvement in politics decreases belief in large-scale conspiracies; people are too “human, stupid, and venal” (28:30).
  • Ben warns conspiracies sap agency and breed national cynicism (29:19-29:43): “America kicks ass. We did put a man on the moon … please stop trying to [deny it].”

• Epstein Case Discussion:

  • Both hosts are skeptical that the “full story” of Epstein’s death is public but hesitate to fully subscribe to grand conspiracy narratives (32:34-40:00).
  • Ben: “If people are actually articulating that theory, they should have the balls to just say it out loud … I haven’t seen the evidence to suggest the people I’m talking about are lying.” (35:48-36:43)
  • Michael: “I think the government has contradicted itself many times on this … But because I’m not a libertarian … governments don’t have to be radically transparent.” (37:54)

5. Contemporary Culture, Morality, and Technology

• Social Media vs. Drugs:

  • Should TikTok be banned to “save more lives than banning fentanyl”?
  • Ben: TikTok ban could have tangible effect, since fentanyl already banned; TikTok’s spiritual/informational harm is broader (16:06-18:14).

• Media, Body Image & Sex Appeal:

  • Discusses the Sydney Sweeney jeans ad and “return to normalcy” amid an androgynous, “creepy” new cultural standard (41:03-43:51).
  • Ben: “It is now right wing coded for a beautiful woman to be on your tv, in a sexy way.” (42:28)

• AI Porn vs. Real Porn:

  • Final rapid-fire round question (57:03):
    • Ben: “AI generated porn involves the sinfulness and evil of the person who is typing in the prompt but does not involve a second party who is prostituting herself. And real porn involves multiple parties being horrific in a myriad of ways…” (57:27)
    • Both acknowledge the gravity and new complications of AI-generated pornography, pondering its future societal impact (59:29-60:27).

6. Philosophy of Identity and Civic Order

• Nation vs. Religion vs. Pluralism:
  • Both engage in a historical and philosophical excursus on Westphalia, Augsburg, pluralism, and what kind of system best preserves national and religious identity (10:33-11:52).
  • Michael: “I don’t think the king has the right to declare religious truth … most kings can barely articulate political truths.” (11:29)
  • Ben connects these issues to why the U.S. ultimately separates church and state at the federal level.

7. Parenting, Death, and Life’s Big Questions

• Ben’s story: How to answer children’s questions about whether dogs go to heaven—“Once you have kids, you are left with two possible answers to a child. One is to lie, and the other is to also lie.” (45:19-45:49)
• Discussion on how to talk about death to children stemming from personal family stories (46:00-47:41).

8. American Presidency; Trump’s Legacy

• If Constitution Allowed: Would They Support a Third Trump Term?
  • Ben: “Trump is holding back a flood tide of bad stuff… he is a populist by appeal, but a pragmatist by nature.” (53:41)
  • Michael: “We have a term limit. It’s called the ballot box. … I like the idea of more continuity.” (55:29)
  • Both agree, in principle and as a matter of practical politics, a third Trump term could be justified if permitted (53:05-56:17).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Ben Shapiro [04:24]: “If you’re Jewish, no one has to kiss the wall. It’s not even like a Jewish thing… People do if they want to, but it’s not a commandment.”
• Michael Knowles [09:44]: “Every Christian in America… would say Christian first. They’d always say Christian. Because of course that’s the answer.”
• Ben Shapiro [19:29]: “Catholicism is more similar to Judaism than Protestantism, yes, by far.”
• Michael Knowles [21:04]: “You would do it because you’d be convinced that the most Jewish thing to be would be Christian.”
• Ben Shapiro [27:23]: “I’m deeply annoyed by virtually all conspiracy theories because they assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.”
• Ben Shapiro [29:43]: “America kicks ass. We did put a man on the moon. We beat the Soviets there. We took down their entire empire. Like, we are awesome.”
• Ben Shapiro [53:41]: “Trump is holding back a flood tide of bad stuff… he is a populist by appeal but a pragmatist by nature.”
• Michael Knowles [55:29]: “We have a term limit. It’s called the ballot box. And I think the way the government is set up… is to be a mixed regime… I like the idea of more continuity.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Episode Begins, Light Banter & Drinks: 01:15–03:14
• On Politicians & Western Wall Rituals: 03:31–05:36
• Dual Loyalty Discussion: 07:16–11:52
• On Catholic vs. Protestant (main focus): 18:15–23:54
• Moon Landing & Distrust of Conspiracies: 24:04–31:16
• Epstein Discussion: 32:08–40:27
• Sydney Sweeney and Body Image in Media: 41:03–43:51
• On Dogs Going to Heaven / Talking Death: 45:06–47:41
• Third Trump Term—Philosophical and Political Analysis: 53:05–56:17
• AI Porn vs. Real Porn / Morality & Technology: 57:08–61:10

Memorable Moments

• Banter over Jewish and Catholic rituals, parental stories, drinks, and mockery of product ads.
• The quick-witted reasoning in the game’s “rapid-fire” round, including playful jabs about being “shroud-pilled,” having dual loyalty, and philosophical hair-splitting over spiritual questions.
• Ben’s explanation to his kids on pet mortality: “I went with, don’t worry, we’ll come up with medicines and the dog will be 150 years old.” (45:49)
• Michael’s summation of politics: “I thought it was all a grand conspiracy, then realized—these are just humans.” (28:40–29:11)
• The recurring refrain that aligning with Catholicism is “the most Jewish way to be Christian.”

Tone and Language

True to The Michael Knowles Show style:

• Conversational, irreverent, but intellectually robust.
• Quick sarcasm, with both self-deprecation and earnest theological and political analysis.
• Frequent historical references and inside jokes that reward audience familiarity.

Overall:
This episode features a dynamic and thought-provoking exchange between Knowles and Shapiro, offering both lighthearted entertainment and real insight into questions of religious identity, modern politics, media culture, and personal belief systems. It’s as much a masterclass in playful debate among friends as it is in navigating America’s rhetorical minefields.