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The Michael Knowles Show
"You LIED About Everything?" Michael & The Prodigal Daughter 2 | Nala Ray
01:59:26
One year after her powerful story went viral, Nala Ray returns to Michael &—and this time, she’s joined by her husband—for the first-ever repeat guest episode. In this candid and deeply personal conversation, Nala reflects on the incredible changes in her life since leaving behind her $9 million Onlyfans career and embracing her faith. She addresses the challenges she’s faced, the lies she’s uncovered, and how her journey has shaped her new purpose. Michael, Nala, and her husband discuss the power of redemption, the importance of a supportive marriage, and the hope they’ve found moving forward. Don’t miss this follow-up to one of the most moving interviews on Michael &! - - - Today's Sponsor: Hallow - Start the year off right by putting your relationship with God first. Head over to https://hallow.com/knowles for three months free today!
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- [00:00]
Michael Knowles
Really shook the Internet the first time you came on. I got in so much trouble for talking to you.
- [00:05]
Nala Rae
I know you have, and I appreciate that.
- [00:07]
Michael Knowles
They say very nasty things about you.
- [00:08]
Nala Rae
Oh, yeah, oh, we know you were.
- [00:10]
Michael Knowles
A lying, deceiving prostitute. You said that you lied about everything. People were tagging me in it on social media, and they said, see, Michael, here's proof that she lied to you.
- [00:19]
Nala Rae
Everything I've said on podcasts is complete clickbait.
- [00:23]
Michael Knowles
Why do you think people want you to be lying?
- [00:26]
Nala Rae
That happened to her. I can't believe that it's real, because then that means I can change my ways and still get saved.
- [00:32]
Michael Knowles
She was brought up in the church. Is this mental illness? People have criticized you because they say you made all this money. Where's the penance? They say you should give all your money away. I have never had a more passionate reaction to any interview I've ever conducted than I did to an interview I had a year ago with Nala rae, a former OnlyFans star who left pornography and converted to Christianity and has engendered support from people who were happy that she converted and a great deal of hatred and disdain and contempt from other people. So I figured, all right, year anniversary, let's bring her back with her husband, Jordan. Jordan, Nala, thank you for coming back to Nashville.
- [01:26]
Nala Rae
Thank you, Michael.
- [01:27]
Michael Knowles
I got in so much trouble for talking to you.
- [01:29]
Nala Rae
I know you have, and I appreciate that. Thank you for bearing that burden.
- [01:33]
Michael Knowles
I've interviewed lots of controversial people. You have politicians, cultural figures, but you. Something about you drove people up a wall.
- [01:45]
Nala Rae
Yeah.
- [01:45]
Michael Knowles
So I'll tell you the first thing that people came at me with. They said, michael, this girl Nala lied. Maybe she didn't lie about getting married. I guess you guys are pretty clearly married. But she lied about quitting porn. Her porn site is still active. She lied about her conversion. She's not really Christian. She lied about everything. And she duped you, Michael. You weren't mean enough to her. So what do you say? Was I duped?
- [02:10]
Nala Rae
No, you absolutely were not. I feel like even in our first interview, you felt how genuine it was, and you even remarked on that. And I feel like from one believer to another, again, you can just sense the spirit behind that. And what I find so confusing is why people think that Christianity is so popular. It was even more popular than what I was doing when I already had that audience before becoming a Christian. So, again, I don't know why people thought I became more famous because I was Christian now or how they think that becoming A Christian is going to sell more on Only Fans. So I don't understand that. And I'm not here to just, like, rage bait like people we've talked about or anything like that, because it's like, at the end of the day, it was just a sacrifice I made, and it was between me and God. And I could say that I was a Christian and continue doing OnlyFans, but we know that there's no truth behind that. Or I could truly give my life to God and see what he has for me by sacrificing only fans and people in my life, the money, the fame, all of that, just to follow Christ. I had no idea I was going to gain any kind of following or lose all of my following for becoming a Christian. So again, I just want to address, like, why people think Christianity is so popular and it was such a, like, a clickbaity thing for me to do just to become a Christian.
- [03:36]
Michael Knowles
Well, it's a good story. It's a good story to say someone who was living in sin and vice has had this total conversion. At least that attracts someone's attention.
- [03:46]
Nala Rae
Yeah, of course.
- [03:47]
Michael Knowles
Even if it attracts negative attention from the world. But I haven't looked into it happily. But people say you kept your OnlyFans site up.
- [03:56]
Nala Rae
Yeah. So Jordan can shed some light on this too. So what happened in the beginning was when I had told him originally, I'm deleting my Only fans, I had full intent to delete my OnlyFans. I even showed him we were right next to each other when I pushed the delete button back in, like, January. And what happened was I had so many subscribers. OnlyFans won't allow you to close your account until every single subscriber has unsubscribed. Like, they physically have to push the button. But what they don't know is that people sometimes are very inactive on OnlyFans. So I am still waiting for the site to be completely shut down. However, you can't do anything. I can't even log in anymore. Everything's deleted off the site. There's no price to get in, nothing. So OnlyFans has disabled the site, but it's not down yet, if that makes sense.
- [04:46]
Michael Knowles
Okay.
- [04:46]
Nala Rae
They said do anything.
- [04:47]
Michael Knowles
The other thing people said was you raised your prices, so actually you profited.
- [04:51]
Nala Rae
I'm gonna share some line with that.
- [04:52]
Jordan
Yeah. So for me, as a person who does spend money smartly, I was like, you know what? Like, just raise the price. Because if there's cause, this is after she deleted everything. So I Was like, you know what? Raise the price. Because they're gonna pay for nothing. And they could see that there's nothing. So it's like, why would you pay for that?
- [05:09]
Nala Rae
Right?
- [05:09]
Jordan
But it's like, still, some people paid for it.
- [05:11]
Nala Rae
I'm like, before you subscribe, you can see the amount of how many photos a model has on her page and how many videos, but they were all zero. So why would you pay to get into account by one not having a profile photo? It's like a blank page. So, like, why would you pay for that? And they're like, if I set it to free, I would gain so many subscribers and that would take me even longer to get off. So in our heads, we were like, let's just raise the price. No one's gonna pay for zero photos.
- [05:38]
Michael Knowles
Would certainly discourage people.
- [05:40]
Nala Rae
Yeah, exactly. Just trying to. Because the whole point was OnlyFans was telling me, I can't. It won't be completely deleted until 2026. And I was like, oh, my God, like, we can't wait that long. So what can we do to. To discourage people from signing up? No one's gonna pay a $50 price to get into something that has nothing in there.
- [05:59]
Michael Knowles
You should have raised it to $10,000 a month.
- [06:01]
Nala Rae
We couldn't. Otherwise I would have tried. I would have tried. $50 is the limit. So we were like, okay, yeah.
- [06:07]
Jordan
I think the scary part is people still paid for it. I'm like, bro, you see that? There's nothing in there.
- [06:11]
Nala Rae
There's nothing in there. Nobody's chatting. I was just done with it.
- [06:16]
Michael Knowles
Were there. Was it new subscribers or was it just people who. Cause I forget to cancel Netflix or whatever?
- [06:21]
Nala Rae
There was like, only old people left in there. I'm down to like 2000 subscribers. Last OnlyFans emailed me. There's like 2000 subscribers left in there, they said. So I'm like, okay. Hopefully. I was even thinking about putting out a message on my social, like, if you are subscribed to my OnlyFans, please unsubscribe so I can get this completely shut down. But I also didn't wanna draw more attention to it. So I feel like if I just leave it alone. And OnlyFans, like, their team can just help me with whatever they can, but they take forever to respond, and when they do, they're not even speaking, like, English. So I'm like, having a hard time with that.
- [06:53]
Michael Knowles
I had a thought once that I would start an OnlyFans page, but it would just be me reading Italian poetry or Something.
- [06:59]
Nala Rae
I think you told me that in the first interview. I was like, huh, that's interesting. A cigar.
- [07:03]
Michael Knowles
I thought no one would subscribe, but I don't know. People pay for nothing on there, so maybe.
- [07:06]
Jordan
Apparently, man, pretty much.
- [07:08]
Michael Knowles
Now, the other criticism I saw of you is that you went back on the Whatever podcast. You had been on the Whatever podcast when you were active in porn and said all sorts of crazy things.
- [07:20]
Nala Rae
Crazy things.
- [07:21]
Michael Knowles
Then you go back. Then you came on my show, which was probably the first big interview after you convoyed me.
- [07:25]
Nala Rae
It was, yeah.
- [07:26]
Michael Knowles
And I was very honored to have that conversation. And you said, so I'm all done with that. But then the criticism I saw was you went back on the Whatever podcast and you said that you lied about everything.
- [07:39]
Nala Rae
I did.
- [07:39]
Michael Knowles
And this was clipped out. I think it was 90 seconds.
- [07:42]
Nala Rae
I remember your video explaining this, because there was no, like, there was nothing leading up to that video. It was just that video.
- [07:51]
Michael Knowles
People were tagging me in it on social media, and they said, see, Michael, here's proof that she lied to you. She said that she lied to you because she said she lied about everything on all these podcasts. Because mine was the first podcast that you went on. I thought, oh, maybe she lied to me. Then I looked at the context, though that does not appear to be what you were saying.
- [08:08]
Nala Rae
It was not what I was saying. But people love clickbait.
- [08:11]
Michael Knowles
So what were you saying?
- [08:12]
Nala Rae
So in that moment, I had been asked by somebody on the screen to explain, like. Cause Andrew was asking me, hey, like, how should I believe you now? Now that you've, like, come this way and blah, blah, blah. And so for me, I was like, well, before I was playing a character, social media is clickbait. I knew what I needed to say and do to get more subscribers, to get more money. It's just a funnel. So for me, I was like, I wanted to go back on the Whatever podcast to explain more of, like, everything leading up. Not that I owed them an explanation, but that was kind of where all the raunchiness started, was that podcast. And I wanted to go back and give answers and really, like, just show that I am different. Whether people want to believe me or not, that's fine. But there were so many questions popping up in my comments, just like, you're getting talking about me lying and all this. And like, I just walked away with $14 million and all this stuff. And I'm like, no, let's set the record straight here. This is not what happened. Although I did not know Andrew was Gonna be on it. I was kind of, like, blindsided by that. But, yeah, I just feel like people would love to believe that I'm lying, but it's just that makes it so much more difficult than it actually is. Like, the truth is way more simple to believe than this lie that everybody is creating about me.
- [09:30]
Michael Knowles
On that point, people, either they don't like you, or they do like you, or they don't want to believe you. They do want to believe you. People can believe whatever they like. But I thought it was quite disreputable of people on social media to clip that out in such a way that it made it seem like you were saying the opposite of what you quite clearly were saying. Whether people like you or they don't like you, it's pretty clear what you were saying to me. Why do you think people want you to be lying?
- [09:59]
Nala Rae
That's a hard question to answer. I feel like most people are upset at the fact that I did what I did and was able to be saved. And people almost, you know when you watch the news, how negative it is, and people love that negativity rather than positive. You know, you showed all good news on the news. I don't even know if everybody would watch it. Cause that negativity drives you. So when you see a story like mine and then you're just like, wow, that happened to her. I can't believe that it's real. Because then that means I can change my ways and still get saved, you know? Or people who've been in the religious area for a while or been a Christian most of their life see somebody like me in, like, the Prodigal Story, we were just talking about that, how, you know, the brother was so mad that the other brother came home and got this huge feast. And he's like, I've been here this whole time working in the fields, you know, why does he get this? And I've been here this whole time. Why does he get welcomed back like this? I feel like the hater's mindset is that brother who's upset that somebody like me could go squander my earnings and come back and, like, willing to be a servant almost, and then just gets welcomed back by their father with a feast and robes and gold and just, like, is just so welcomed into the family when I've been such an outcast. It's almost like, hey, why are we letting somebody like her in our circle? It's this Christian mindset that I continue to find of, like, religious spirit instead of a relational spirit with Christ, where people should have a relationship with Christ rather than a religion surrounding God.
- [11:39]
Michael Knowles
Some of us would say religion is a good thing. It's a habit of virtue that inclines the will to give to God what he deserves. Some would say, like St. Thomas Aquinas. But I see your point. The distinction between a kind of rigorous legalism and the fruit of the spirit being acted out.
- [11:54]
Nala Rae
Religion isn't bad. Like, we're Christians. That's religion, you know, that is our religion, that face. However, I feel like as Christians in that religion, we walk with Christ in a relationship that is, day by day.
- [12:09]
Michael Knowles
A living person, the God of the living God. So I totally see that point. And I. I get why the son who stayed with the father is irritated when the prodigal comes back.
- [12:22]
Nala Rae
I totally get that you can empathize with that. Absolutely.
- [12:25]
Michael Knowles
But the point you just brought up is even more interesting to me, which is you said offhandedly, well, some people don't like the idea that I, having been as bad as I was, could be saved, because that says something about the possibility of their salvation. I was just talking to a friend, a friend of mine, irreligious person, who said, well, I don't like religion because it threatens you with hell. And I said, well, there's some hope though, too. You don't have to go to hell. And this friend of mine said, well, I'm a little too far gone for that. And I was taken aback because I said, you just have contrition and you confess your sins and you ask God for help and cooperate with God's grace. And no, it'll be like two seconds. You can do it.
- [13:12]
Nala Rae
It's not a hard process. And that's what I feel like when I was getting into a debate with two certain individuals about how I needed to read church history in order to grasp the gravity of my Christianity. But yet in Romans, it has two specific things that I needed to do, which was speak with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart. That is two things. It is not a laundry list of things that I needed to do to cleanse myself, because I cannot clean Christ with the blood of Jesus cleanses me. So, again, I hit on that point because I almost feel like this jealousy nature of the people who are coming after me consistently, that they want something so bad and they're mad that they didn't get the shot that I did. But the reality of it is they have that opportunity. We all have the exact same opportunity, and it's not harder for anybody else. And it's not easier for other people. We have the exact same opportunity. But I've heard people say the exact same thing that you're talking about. How, oh, I'm too far gone. Unlike me, I thought I was a bit too far gone. I went too far. I can't reverse where I've been. The only thing was to just keep going forward because I couldn't go back. I can't take this back. So with following Christ, it's just about. And even God promises in the Bible to throw your sins in a sea of forgetfulness as far as the east is from the west. So if you're like, other people may not be able to forgive you and you can't be redeemed through other people, and I might spend the rest of my life with people doubting me and thinking I'm a liar.
- [14:52]
Michael Knowles
You will. You certainly will.
- [14:53]
Nala Rae
I will. But my God is so much bigger than that and has already forgiven me, so I have nothing to worry about.
- [15:00]
Michael Knowles
People will say, well, this is cheap salvation. It's inexpensive. That's true.
- [15:05]
Nala Rae
Actually, it was bought for a very happy price.
- [15:09]
Michael Knowles
Right? Free to you, not free from Calvary. But some people will say, well, then why can't I just sin, live it up, do a bunch of porn and drugs and whatever, do everything.
- [15:19]
Nala Rae
That was my exact thought process.
- [15:21]
Michael Knowles
And people will say, why can't I have a deathbed conversion? First of all, good luck planning that out.
- [15:26]
Jordan
I would say, like, the biggest thing is you weren't guaranteed tomorrow. You know, I'm not guaranteed the next five minutes. So if I act out here because of, like, my selfish ways, my selfish wants, and then I don't know what's gonna happen in the next five minutes. Then, like, I'm dying in my sin, you know, living for sin rather than living for God.
- [15:43]
Michael Knowles
Right.
- [15:43]
Nala Rae
But that's such a selfish thought, too. Like, let me live a little bit more for me. I'm not ready to give me up and do what God wants me to do. When God promises that what he has is far greater than what we could ever think or imagine. So it's like you're really downplaying and dumbing down your version of life when God is like, hey, no, I have a way better plan for you if you would just accept me and follow me.
- [16:07]
Michael Knowles
Even if you don't get hit by a bus, even if you make it to 99 years old, the way people think it's gonna play out is they're just gonna remain totally rational. They're gonna forget that sin darkens the intellect, they're just gonna remain totally rational. They're gonna be degenerates their whole lives.
- [16:22]
Nala Rae
But.
- [16:22]
Michael Knowles
And then the last minute, ha ha, they're gonna get it. But what really happens, at least in my experiences, the more you sin, the more you turn away from God, the more comfortable you get in that, the more reluctant you are to respond to God's grace. And it's just, you're just probably not gonna have a last minute conversion, it seems to me. You know, that's true.
- [16:42]
Nala Rae
You've been sitting in your sin for what, 99 years now, and at some point you might not even think there's a God anymore. Something could have changed her mind along the way. Or you just feel like, oh, I've been a good person, I'm fine.
- [16:54]
Michael Knowles
Well, who cares?
- [16:55]
Nala Rae
Or you might not even be mentally capable to make that decision at that age.
- [16:59]
Michael Knowles
Right? You mentioned the whatever podcast and being hit for all these theological things. The one clip I saw that I also probably disagreed with some of the tactics in this clip. One of the guys on the whatever show caught you in a theological error.
- [17:17]
Nala Rae
Yes.
- [17:17]
Michael Knowles
Caught you in denying the divinity of Christ. Ah, how did that all happen? What's your take on that? What do you believe?
- [17:23]
Nala Rae
Was I denying it? It is divine. I know that there's a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit in their roles. What he got upset about was the fact that I misused the word part instead of person. But in my head, it's the same thing when I'm speaking about the Trinity. So I do not deny it. And I've been hit on so hard for that. And it's just saying a word that he did not like. That's how I feel. And he's more. He's orthodox, so I don't understand his points of views on certain things. And the way he came at it was just baiting me. I felt like instead of just genuinely having a conversation about what I actually thought and believed, in fact, it was just the opposite of yelling, screaming, and cussing at me. So I was like. I was feeling heated and I said what he thought was like the wrong word and then spouted off about it.
- [18:14]
Michael Knowles
I would go even further than that. You fell into a theological error, it seems to me. I've done that myself. In fact, it's very difficult to speak about the Trinity, the central mystery of the Christian faith, without falling into errors. There's a great video put out, I think, by some Lutherans with little leprechauns trying to describe the Trinity and One guy, he tries, he says, well, you know. Well, you know, it's sort of like water, you know, water and mist and ice, and said, oh, that's the heresy of modalism, Patrick. Oh, okay. Well, it's actually different parts. That's the heresy of partialism, Patrick. And there's a story, probably apocryphal, in fact, certainly apocryphal, of St. Augustine walking on the beach. He's writing De Trinitate on the Trinity, and there's a child on the beach putting water into a hole with a clamshell. And Augustine says, what are you doing? And he says, I'm gonna fill the ocean into this hole. And Augustine says, well, that's probably a stupid idea because you're never gonna do that. He says, that's right. Neither will you fit the Trinity into your finite head. And then he's transfigured into an angel and flies away. And this legend tells a lot of truth. One can speak without error about the Trinity, but one will never speak comprehensively about the Trinity because you cannot fit God into your head.
- [19:37]
Nala Rae
You cannot. That makes a lot of sense.
- [19:40]
Michael Knowles
So then what do you make of that kind of experience? I mean, you say, okay, darn, I shouldn't have said that, or I misspoke.
- [19:46]
Nala Rae
Or, you know, at that point, I think I did pretty good with the situation I was in as far as, yes, maybe falling into a theological error. However, in my mind, I feel like the people coming against me were trying to make it way harder than it actually is. No, no, we cannot fit it all into our brains. But for me, I see it clearly, and what I was being accused of is having, like, a makeshift potato head Jesus in my mind, and, like, that's my salvation. But I've read quite a few amazing books, like one called the Holy Spirit by John Bevere, and that really helped me shape the identity of the Holy Spirit and what his role is here on earth, in us, living in us, and then the role of Jesus and the awe of God and the role of God and where they're placed right now on earth. And like. And I'm just like, okay, so I do need to study more. I would love that opportunity to understand it more. But I don't think personally, in my walk with Christ that understanding the theological side of all this, it's getting too complex. It's like, listen, I'm not trying to not learn, but I think that it's bordering a line of religion that I'm not trying to steep into. I want to learn more And I do not know everything, and I will never know everything. But I feel like it was bordering religious so hard that I'm like, I can't argue and debate you on this because you believe something different than I believe. I'm not even sure that we believe in the same God with the way you're speaking to me about these things. Because if you were truly, truly wondering about where I was and concerned about what I believe in, you'd pull me aside and actually have a conversation, not a debate, online. As a true Christian, we come brother to brother. Obviously, I'm not his brother, but I'm a sister in Christ. And if you were truly worried, approach me with my husband and speak to me about these things. If you're actually worried. But it doesn't come out of concern. It comes out of clickbait and, oh, I caught this little OnlyFans girl trying to pretend like she's Christian. That's just like, what I saw in my head. And it was just, like, disheartening that I can't actually have a conversation with somebody who claims to be a Christian for some very long period of time.
- [22:03]
Michael Knowles
I have a similar reaction in debates. I engage in debates professionally, so I understand you do.
- [22:09]
Nala Rae
You do it very well.
- [22:10]
Michael Knowles
You're very kind. Thank you. But if I'm thinking of something like evangelism, one has to ask, okay, what are we aiming at here? You know, don't we want to help these people along? Don't we want to encourage people? What's the goal here?
- [22:25]
Nala Rae
You mentioned that in your last video defending me. And I was like, he said it perfectly. If our mission here is just to debate people and argue about theological issues or religion, ish, religious issues like that, then you've gotten all the glory from it. But it's not about us. It's about discipling too. Like, Jesus told the disciples to go out into the world, and they actually stayed in Jerusalem for a very long time. And then Paul came along and was like, I'll take on the task. I will go into the world and preach this. And he wasn't even a full, like, disciple. He was an apostle. So I'm like, if our goal here is just to argue, then you've won. There you go. There's your glory in that.
- [23:06]
Michael Knowles
There's an important point too. I care quite a lot about theology. I'm not a theologian. Many much more intelligent people than I and better educated people than I are theologians. But you're not going to earn your salvation with a theological tract. Oh, I Like that or even with theological precision. I'm not in any way downplaying the importance of clarity in your faith, but Aristotle talks about this in the ethics, which is that you can know a lot about virtue and not be a virtuous person. What really matters is that you kind of put your whole body into it.
- [23:40]
Nala Rae
Yeah.
- [23:41]
Michael Knowles
So then I guess the next question is, we're here a year later. We spoke a year ago. You got married almost a year ago. What have you been doing? How's it worked out?
- [23:53]
Nala Rae
So much. I've been doing so much, I don't even know where to start. So much has happened in the time we've gotten married.
- [24:00]
Michael Knowles
You're still married?
- [24:01]
Nala Rae
Yeah. Yes, we're still married. Yay. But I feel like I've been going on a lot of podcasts and a lot of people like to think that, like, I'm just getting paid for all these podcasts and I'm just, like, trying to soak in the fame. I've actually prayed about every single podcast I've been asked on, and I've actually turned down quite a few because I didn't feel like God was leading me in that direction.
- [24:26]
Michael Knowles
We're not paying you to be here. They barely pay me to be.
- [24:30]
Nala Rae
Yeah. So I don't. Nobody pays me to go on all these podcasts and travel all around doing a lot of podcasts. We started our own company called Be the Change. It's under Jordan just for a bigger. We really want to share the message on being the change. And Jordan and I both in our personal lives were like that change that we wanted to see in the world and spread like, that message. And then we are trying to start a non for profit called Race to Change so we can go do men. We feel very called to the mission field, wherever that is. But I know God calls us to be servants. Like, when Jesus came down to be man, he was such a servant, he wasn't being served. So I've spent my entire life being served, and I want to serve now. I want to give back. And I feel like that's the calling on my life now. We've gone through so much. My mom and dad are divorcing. My dad's actually in jail right now. There's so much that has happened in our life. We moved to a place that, like, I've never been. We've gone through a lot of financial issues. It's just life hit. And then on top of that, dealing with every single day hate from the Internet, which is almost like we've had conversations where we're like, I can't wait until we're off of social media. But I don't think that's God's purpose for us. I think we are called to be evangelists, and me to women and akin to men. But I feel like God's just working in so many ways in our life right now that it's kind of unexplainable. Like, what's next? But just living day to day in a relationship with him has led us to incredible opportunities. We've met some extremely strong Christian figures in our life that we both desperately needed, like, mentors and things, and that's been amazing.
- [26:17]
Michael Knowles
What else for you before we move on? You just brushed over a number of things.
- [26:21]
Nala Rae
Oh, a lot.
- [26:22]
Jordan
A lot.
- [26:22]
Nala Rae
We did this last time, and you made me cry, so I'll try to.
- [26:26]
Michael Knowles
Be a little softer this time. You say your parents are getting divorced. Your parents had been divorced?
- [26:31]
Nala Rae
They'd been divorced when I was nine. And then they remarried, and then are now, as of last year, like, in March, the same time I was getting off of only fans and getting saved, they decided to get divorced again.
- [26:42]
Michael Knowles
Ah, sorry to hear that.
- [26:43]
Nala Rae
Yeah, it's okay.
- [26:44]
Michael Knowles
And your father is in jail.
- [26:46]
Nala Rae
He's in jail. He broke into my mom's home with, like, a gun and a knife and is sent to prison, and he'll probably be in there for life.
- [26:54]
Michael Knowles
Oh, man.
- [26:55]
Nala Rae
Yep.
- [26:56]
Michael Knowles
I'm terribly sorry to hear that.
- [26:58]
Nala Rae
It's okay.
- [26:59]
Michael Knowles
Because you like to think that when things start turning sunny in your life, like they did about a year ago.
- [27:04]
Nala Rae
I think it's gonna get better.
- [27:05]
Michael Knowles
They'll just keep being sunny.
- [27:06]
Nala Rae
Yeah. No.
- [27:08]
Michael Knowles
How is the rest of your family taking it? How's your mother taking it?
- [27:10]
Nala Rae
Oh, my mother is in, like, a very recovery stage. I've been slowly but surely talking to her again. I do find that she's finding some healing, but this is the first time she's been alone in, like, almost 30 years. So it's, like, a slow process for her. My brothers and sisters are doing okay. You know, I really didn't expect, like, the return that I had. Like, it's been a very odd return to my family. Like, my siblings don't exactly, like, accept me, I feel like. And he's even heard some conversations over the phone with them where my little sister was complaining about the amount of times she's seen me on social media preaching, like, talking about what God's done in my life. And she's like, how do I get this crap off my phone?
- [27:54]
Michael Knowles
You know, was she complaining about the porn before the evangelists?
- [27:56]
Nala Rae
No, no, no, not at all. But we weren't actually, like, talking during that time. I was on Onlyfans, so she's only been talking to me now, but it's just been like a difficult, like, rocky, cold entrance back into my family.
- [28:08]
Michael Knowles
Why is that? Do they not believe you? Do they not like Christianity, do they?
- [28:15]
Jordan
I would say that they just don't have a really strong relationship with God. It's not like they don't believe her. I would say they definitely believe her, but it's more just like letting a stranger kind of come back in after they kind of pushed her out as well as just like, I guess, like, not always walking the walk.
- [28:35]
Nala Rae
No, they don't.
- [28:35]
Jordan
You know, so, like, a lot of.
- [28:37]
Nala Rae
Them have fallen away from Christianity and. And even claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle says differently. So I do think they believe me, but I also don't think they care. They really don't seem to genuinely care at all about anything. So I don't know. It's been hard. It's been definitely very difficult to really want this family that's been in your head this whole time. And then you find out it was kind of a delusion. You're like, oh, okay, I'm closer to his family than I am mine.
- [29:09]
Michael Knowles
Well, obviously you've got a. We all love our families and have a natural loyalty to our families, but you got a trickier situation maybe than most.
- [29:19]
Nala Rae
A little bit.
- [29:20]
Michael Knowles
You mentioned financial problems.
- [29:22]
Nala Rae
Yeah.
- [29:22]
Michael Knowles
But you made a bazillion dollars in pornography.
- [29:25]
Nala Rae
Yep.
- [29:25]
Michael Knowles
So how do you have financial problems?
- [29:27]
Nala Rae
So what happened was I made 14 million. What is it, gross or net? Like, the biggest gross. Gross. Grossly made $14 million. I netted $9 million. OnlyFans takes 20% of what you make. Everything, like, takes 20% of it. And then the agency that I was working with, this OnlyFans agency that was, like, chatting in my DMs and posting for me and doing all the work, they took a hefty, like, 45%. And I was living in California, which also takes so much in taxes. So, like, the first year I was living in California, just my state taxes alone were like $87,000. Just state taxes. So it got cut up, like, three times, and I'm left with what I'm left with. So we had a really nice little eggshell, and then we had to liquidate that because taxes came in for this year from last year, and I made money in 2023. And then this Big life change happened in January. And so I'm no longer working on OnlyFans. And we got hit with taxes like crazy. Or I did. He didn't, but.
- [30:34]
Michael Knowles
And then there goes the money.
- [30:35]
Nala Rae
There goes the money.
- [30:36]
Michael Knowles
This is how celebrities end up owing the IRS taxes. Make, like, $5 million taxes.
- [30:41]
Jordan
I think the issue is, like, they don't have a good cpa.
- [30:44]
Nala Rae
Yeah, I don't think I have a great. I didn't have a good cpa.
- [30:46]
Jordan
They didn't advise, you know, you got to save money on taxes.
- [30:48]
Nala Rae
Well, I knew I needed to save money for taxes, but it was so, like, am I paying quarterly or, like, I don't understand, like, what do you want me to do? And there was, like, no answering on all ends.
- [30:58]
Michael Knowles
Right. Onlyfans in particular. Show business, generally, even the cleaner side of show business, it's not the most responsible industry. So often people get caught in these things. So, all right, so you're out of money. People have criticized you because they say you made all this money.
- [31:15]
Nala Rae
I know.
- [31:15]
Michael Knowles
And you converted because God saves you through his free grace. Well, that's good. But there's contrition, and then there's confession. There's absolution. But then there's satisfaction. There's a little penance. Where's the penance? They say you should give all your money away. I guess you don't have money anymore.
- [31:35]
Nala Rae
Yeah. So I don't know what they want me to give away at this point, because I've given away all of my designer things. I sold my Porsche. I don't live in the same home anymore. And so I'm like, what else do you want me to give? But I feel like that conversation could go on for forever because people want me to dye my hair. They want me to stop wearing makeup. They want me to wear different clothing. It can go on and on like I'm doing everything wrong. But I'll believe you when you do this. And I'm like, what money do I have to give away at this point?
- [32:01]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. I think probably a lot of the demands people are making are disingenuous and it'll never end. But there is a real question there, which is, okay. When I go sin, which happens time and time again, often, some would say, then I go and I confess my sins and I receive God's absolution. But there's a penance. Maybe it's three Hail Marys. Maybe it's, go do something else. Have you given thought to, okay, I did all these bad things, and I have been Converted. And I now have this good life and I'm on the right path. Is there a penance that you feel called to do?
- [32:40]
Nala Rae
A penance? I feel like the biggest thing that I feel very called to do is to bring awareness to the industry. Not just only fans, the industry, and what kind of darkness that absolutely resides there. And that, like, there are very big consequences to your actions. You pay for what you do. Like, at first it seems free. Like, showing my body and I get all this money. It seems free. Right. Like, I'm just sharing something that you know.
- [33:10]
Michael Knowles
Just your body, you didn't make it.
- [33:11]
Nala Rae
Yeah, exactly. Like, why? Why should I care? There's no value. But then once that's done, that price to be paid is like, your soul, like, you did this. You are owned by it now. Not only by the people who run your only fans, you're owned by them. You're owned by OnlyFans. Because if you stop producing, you stop making money. So now you're just like a hamster in a hamster wheel, just going round and round and round and round. And like, the hamster wheel keeps getting nicer and nicer, but you're still in a revolving circle. Like, you're never, like, broken free from that without God's grace. So there is a price to pay for the tax that you are absorbing the entire time that tax is heavy. Like, the IRS is coming after me for the literal tax. Yeah. So it's a heavy price. Shame is another price to pay for what you do. And then when you. God. God is so good and so forgiving and so gracious. But you yourself, like, your soul feels things. And I'm very empathetic. And there's been many times where I've just been sitting down in my Bible time where I feel the hearts of the people that I hurt to feel the hearts of, like, the women who caught their husband watching me. Or, like, it's real. It's very heavy. It's a burden. And I can't say I'm sorry enough. You know, I've said I'm sorry a couple times on camera, but I just feel like that's so impersonal. And, like, if I could, I'd love to say it to people in front of their face. Cause that's just kind of the person I am. I'm very empathetic. And I never want to cause anybody to, like, harm themselves or be in a situation that harmed them because of my actions. You know, I put it out there. I mean, yes, they could have bought it. From somebody else. But you did mine. You bought mine, you know, And I'm like, I'm responsible for that. And I think a lot of the hate also comes from people being like, oh, she's just not, like, taking responsibility. She needs to give all the way of money. Yeah. All the money away. And that will be claiming responsibility, like, give it to a charity. I'm like, I'm sorry, but that doesn't take away what I did. It's still rooted in people's hearts and minds. So all I can do is pray for them, pray that God wipes that clean in their brain and that they can continue on a journey of not lusting anymore and set them free from that. Cause we're all in chains. I was chained in the industry. They're chained to lust. You know what I'm saying? We all need to be broken free.
- [35:30]
Michael Knowles
And on the point of shame, I imagine that is a heavy cost.
- [35:33]
Nala Rae
Yeah.
- [35:35]
Michael Knowles
Difficult for you also, I'm sure. You know, I've seen some of the commentary on social media. What is that? Like, you've married this person who has had a radical change in her life, and you appear to have a wonderful life together, but people keep throwing her past at you, and that's a reality that you have to. So how do you deal with it?
- [35:58]
Jordan
So, first off, I just go to God because, like, when everything, I guess, like, first started, it was super hard for me because, like, I'm a big protector, you know, Like, I will always protect. But it's hard when you can't protect, like, against an enemy you can't see. You know, it's all digital. It's, like, on your phone. But, like, something I really have just been working on and gotten really good at is literally just letting go and going to God because, like, there's only so much you can do within your own strength and in your own means, where it's like, all right, like, God, take it from here. Because, like, what does God say about vengeance? And, like, getting back, he said, vengeance is mine. So it's like, this isn't even my place. Where my place is, is standing up for my wife and, like, defending her spiritually and just around us. But it's like people hating on the Internet. Hey, blow our videos up more. Let more people hear the gospel, you know, like, this is what Jesus can do. So if you want to hate, hate on our posts, because more people need to hear the name of Jesus.
- [37:01]
Michael Knowles
And it doesn't bother you beyond that you have.
- [37:05]
Jordan
You have such faith. No, no, no. It definitely did in the beginning, it was really hard because, like, there would be people who would like, DM me, like, pictures of her on her, like, from her past. I was like, bro, I don't want to see this. Because, like, for me, it was like, all right. When you think of your wife, you're like, okay, this is mine. No one else's. No one else has seen her. And then it's like, all right, well, a lot of people have seen her. So it was like, it was really hard. But it's like she's now a new creation. You know, in the end, if it was just us two here on Earth, would I actually care about what other people think? You know? So it's just like, you have to look at it, you know, in a very focused lens where it's like, this is my family. This is what matters. I don't care what Joe Schmo down the street thinks, you know, like, he's living his life, I'm living mine. That's it.
- [37:48]
Michael Knowles
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- [39:17]
Nala Rae
He was just talking about that. And so, like, the haters don't understand that OnlyFans is the step after what you're doing. Do you understand that, like, women send nudes to their boyfriends or random guy girls, or guys and guys are doing the exact same thing. You're just not monetizing off of it. But strangers are seeing you in very.
- [39:38]
Michael Knowles
Intimate forms, and they're out there forever in cyberspace.
- [39:41]
Nala Rae
Forever. You don't know if they're sending it to their buddies or not, which they probably are. So. And it's just like. Or you have sugar daddies. You know what I'm saying? So you're actually getting paid to show your body or have sex with a stranger. So it's like, you. You're upset at me for doing this, but it actually goes on way more than you think.
- [40:01]
Michael Knowles
I did wonder if this is the OnlyFans phenomenon is just a particular example of this broader social phenomenon. What percentage for zoomers, you know, I don't know. People in their 20s. What percentage of women who are dating men have ever sent a nude picture? Oh, my God. 20%, 30%? More? I don't know, 40, 40%?
- [40:22]
Jordan
Over 50.
- [40:23]
Nala Rae
Over 50. This generation's very different now.
- [40:26]
Jordan
Very different.
- [40:27]
Nala Rae
It doesn't. And now we have Snapchat. We've had Snapchat. Snapchat. Is that. That is what people use Snapchat for most of the time. So it's just like, it goes on so much more than people think. And it's not even a thought. Cause it's just like, oh, it's private. But it's not. Snapchat literally has every single photo you've ever taken. Like, it doesn't just disappear.
- [40:49]
Michael Knowles
Also, anytime you send anything through the Internet, whether it's a text or an email or a picture or anything, you can just take a screenshot of it or a picture of it on another phone or something.
- [41:01]
Nala Rae
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:02]
Michael Knowles
So it's all just out there.
- [41:03]
Nala Rae
All just out there. And again, you're just not monetizing off of it. That was the difference between me and that I monetized greatly off of it.
- [41:11]
Michael Knowles
So first year of marriage, all good. Except you're dealing with people sending you these nasty photographs, and you're dealing with your family falling apart and your online hate and all of these. So there's a lot of bad stuff going on, but married life is good.
- [41:27]
Nala Rae
It's good.
- [41:27]
Jordan
It's honestly amazing. Like, a lot of people that we've been friends with have been saying, like, oh, the first year of marriage is so hard, it's almost unbearable. But for us, it's like, despite everything going on, it's like, this is actually pretty easy.
- [41:45]
Nala Rae
It's pretty cake. Like, there's been issues we're not saying. Like, we've never fought. Yes, we have definitely been. Like, the fact that we've been through what we've been through feels like a 12 years worth of problems, but it's been not even a year yet. Like, in three months, it'll be a year. But we were talking about that the other day, where it feels like we've been married for, like, seven years, but we have invented something. Even been a year yet. But it's wonderful. There's so much freedom in being married. Like, it's just. It's incredible.
- [42:14]
Jordan
I think it helps when you marry your best friend because, like, we were friends before. Like, I even found her attractive because it was like, for me, it was her personality that I found most attractive and, like, everything flowing into that. And obviously she's physically attractive, but it's. It, like, she was able to, like, see who I was able as a person, rather than just somebody on social media or, like, just like one of those kind of like, friends where it's like, all right, well, yeah, we're friends, but I'll see you.
- [42:41]
Michael Knowles
But you became friends over the Internet?
- [42:43]
Jordan
Yeah, yeah, over social media. That's what I'm saying. But when we started FaceTiming and actually.
- [42:46]
Nala Rae
Talking, our FaceTimes would be eight hours a day.
- [42:50]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [42:50]
Nala Rae
Like, it was so long just getting to know each other. Nothing ever got sexual. It was like, we didn't want to go there because we were enjoying what we had. And I never had a best friend like him, and he's had best friends, like, guy best friends and girl best friends. But I felt like we just clicked. Like, we loved where it was at and we would be so happy if it stayed there, you know, it was just something you didn't want to lose. So if you went further, you'd be afraid to lose it.
- [43:16]
Jordan
Yeah. You don't want to risk it, you know?
- [43:17]
Nala Rae
Yeah. That's what it felt like for the longest time. But then, like, being married, dude, we tell each other everything and we laugh all the time like we're a bunch of goofballs. And, like, I feel like he really gets me. Like, I'm so weird sometimes and dorky and clumsy and, like, he just gets me. He's like. He's like this little GI Joe, you know? That's just like. Because he does, like, battle gear and stuff. But hold on.
- [43:45]
Michael Knowles
I don't want to brush over that. What is. What do you mean? He does battle gear?
- [43:47]
Nala Rae
So when we first met on TikTok Live, he had a bulletproof vest on. Like, level four vest and armor piercing. Like, rounds could go through that and. Bulletproof. Can't go through it. I'm sorry. And a bulletproof helmet on. It was just like this huge. I was like.
- [44:03]
Michael Knowles
You were not active duty.
- [44:05]
Jordan
I used to be.
- [44:06]
Michael Knowles
You were active, but I'm saying when you were wearing this.
- [44:08]
Nala Rae
No, no, he wasn't.
- [44:09]
Jordan
No, I just have, like, a ton of gear in case something pops off. Basically.
- [44:12]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [44:13]
Jordan
I'm prepped. Like, our Jeep is EMP proofed.
- [44:15]
Nala Rae
Oh, yeah.
- [44:16]
Jordan
We got enough food for a year, enough water for a year. We got antibiotics, literally everything. Anything you can think of, we have it.
- [44:21]
Michael Knowles
So you're prepared for whatever comes next?
- [44:23]
Jordan
Yes.
- [44:23]
Nala Rae
Yeah. We don't have a bomb shelter. But not yet.
- [44:27]
Jordan
Not yet.
- [44:27]
Michael Knowles
But then what does come next? Because a lot of the criticism I've seen you get is that you're not doing enough or you're not doing what people want you to be doing.
- [44:39]
Nala Rae
Well, that's because they're not. In my personal life, they have no idea who I'm speaking to. They see what I want them to see. That is all they see. You're behind this wall. But behind the scenes, I can't tell you how many messages a day I get of people asking me questions like, how do I fight this lust? Hey, I used to be on OnlyFans, but now I'm not. What do I do? How do you make money now? And I just go TikTok live. Like, that's all I do. And I'm trying to get some brand deals. Like, that's all I can do right now. So for me, it's just like, I'm so behind the scenes doing stuff, answering people's questions, praying over people. Like, we pray over so many peoples and. Cause, like, people start coming to us and they're like, hey, I'm really struggling with this. Like, what do I do? And, like, either one of us is, like, right on top of it. Like, hey, let's pray. Let's pray about this issue and see what happens in your life. Because we believe in the power of prayer. We really do. And so again, people don't see that. You don't see my worship time. You don't see my Bible time. You don't see how much I'm studying, how much I'm reading other books about Christ, how much I journal, how much, how long I listen to sermons for day in, day out. Like, I listen to more sermons than I do music. Cause I just love them. I feel engulfed and on fire. And I wanna keep learning. So that's what people don't see. And that's the part of my life I'm not even willing to share. Cause it's so good and I don't want anybody in it. You know, I want me and God in that bubble and that's it. Because I feel like people wreck things. They just make everything ugly, you know, that's how I feel. They've made this process very ugly for me. So I'm like, why would I share you the rest of my private life? Just so you can hate on it then?
- [46:17]
Michael Knowles
Is there an argument to just get off social media?
- [46:20]
Nala Rae
There is an argument. I'd love to, but I don't feel called to that right now. I feel like I'm actually impacting so many lives. And so is Jordan. Jordan even started this discord for men who are struggling with lust. It's called lust to life. And we love that. Like, that's what we feel passionate about. And if God does be like, hey, Nala, I need you to get off social media now. Your time is done. Oh, blessed. Like, I would be so happy to get off. It would be like a dream for me. But I don't feel called to that right now. I feel called to share my message and also keep studying the Word to see what God lays on my heart to influence other people and help other people. Because I don't feel like there's too. Too many Christians that are viral. Viral. And I have the platform. So I'm like, why wouldn't I share God with 106 million people? Why wouldn't I? You can leave if you like, but I'm just gonna keep sharing the same message.
- [47:15]
Michael Knowles
You know, kind of like the OnlyFans strategy. You can raise the price until they're all gone. You say, well, I'm just going to keep talking about God until either people are welcome to come in or the people who don't want it. You'll have to run away then. Cause I'm gonna keep doing it.
- [47:28]
Nala Rae
I'm just gonna keep doing it. So. And again, I do not get paid for anything. I post. Like, I get paid when I go live, but I don't get any form of payment from any social media platform. Sorry, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I post. So I'm like, I just don't know why people think I'm just getting paid millions still, or I'm sitting on a bag. I'm like, number one, if I was sitting on a bag, I'd probably get off social media for the rest of my life. Like, go off the grid. Like, I'd probably leave.
- [47:58]
Michael Knowles
But you feel you need to make money just to support your household?
- [48:01]
Nala Rae
Yeah, I want to be. I love working, so I want to be a big part in helping our financial situation. So.
- [48:07]
Michael Knowles
But you are still making money from OnlyFans even though you're not producing content?
- [48:11]
Nala Rae
Nope, I'm not.
- [48:12]
Michael Knowles
So with that money that's going to household expenses or. Yes, that's part of the income.
- [48:20]
Jordan
Which money?
- [48:20]
Michael Knowles
Like OnlyFans from OnlyFans.
- [48:22]
Jordan
From the people who have that money.
- [48:23]
Nala Rae
So the subscription price is zero. Like, nobody in there.
- [48:26]
Michael Knowles
Oh, so you dropped it. It was 50. Now it's.
- [48:29]
Jordan
We dropped it. What, like last year or. I guess.
- [48:32]
Nala Rae
Yeah, last year it was only. The price was only raised for a very short period of time. And then we're like, oh, crap, three days. It's not working. People are getting so mad that the price is raised.
- [48:41]
Michael Knowles
And I'm like, why not just raise it, though? In the sense that I like your strategy to raise it when you're going off and you figure, all right, these guys, they're so desperate or they're so good, make it hurt a little bit. But you could always take that money and donate it to a food bank or something.
- [48:54]
Nala Rae
Yeah, but I stopped.
- [48:55]
Michael Knowles
You don't even need to keep it.
- [48:56]
Nala Rae
Any kind of income off of it. In January, I have no income. I can't even get into the account anymore. So probably for the best, it is a great. I don't care. I really don't care. I would love for the whole thing to just drop, but it doesn't ever seem to. People just, like, want to be hung up on the same issue, but it's like, there's no issue. You're creating the issue.
- [49:15]
Michael Knowles
Broadly, it's very difficult to get out of OnlyFans because of all the sticks and carrots, and you feel like there's nothing else you can do. Okay, but in terms of actual practical steps, if women are watching this, who are working for OnlyFans or they have their own websites or whatever, how do you get Your stuff taken off the Internet. The Internet is forever. We're told what happens if someone takes the video from OnlyFans and puts it on some other website or on social media or this. How do you get it down? Or can you get it down?
- [49:44]
Nala Rae
Absolutely you can get it down. I have hired a dmca.
- [49:49]
Michael Knowles
Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
- [49:50]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [49:51]
Nala Rae
Yes. So they take number one. I had a copyrighted legal note on my only fans stating that if you took this and separated it anywhere else, that kind of protects me. If they do take it, and they did, they took it and ran with it and posted it on everything, Reddit, Telegram, all the sites. And so this company sends legal notices as you, you know, as your legal advice or help and gets them taken down because the next step is to. If they do not take it down because they stole that content. So you actually have like a lot of help in that. You can hire somebody who's cheaper, who won't do as many links, take as many links off the Internet or you can go full fledged lawyer and they write up those DMCA notices, send them to the companies and then the next thing is, hey, we're suing you if you're not taking these down. So it's more like a cease and desist kind of like take everything down that you have and do not do it again. Warning. I haven't ran into the fact that somebody's not taking the stuff down. So far it's been really good. The issue is, is that other people will pop up out of random and just keep posting. So they can continue to pop up, but I can continue to come back and my team searches for the links on Google on everything and just continues to have them taken down. I've gotten so much taken down. It is possible. It takes time though, and in that time you just gotta wait until people kinda forget about you, honestly, and then it'll be easier to clean up. But I'm doing it as I'm still kind of popular. So just to get it out, I don't want people to continue sending that content around.
- [51:24]
Michael Knowles
So it takes time and it takes money.
- [51:26]
Nala Rae
If you're. Yes, it does. Yes it does.
- [51:29]
Michael Knowles
And so what happens then? If the site takes it down and then someone else uploads it again, the site takes it down again and it. Are you just doing this until people stop uploading it?
- [51:39]
Nala Rae
Yep.
- [51:40]
Michael Knowles
So on the one hand you're offering people a little bit of hope, which is you can get stuff taken down, but on the other hand, it depends.
- [51:46]
Nala Rae
On how big you are. Too. Like, I was very big. So like, obviously more of it got spread and I did like, everything. So it's just kind of like a broader. But like women who aren't as famous. It would be way easier for you to get your stuff taken down completely. Like, you're just not as popular. Like, it's not, like, in high demand. But my stuff was in high demand, so it just got spread. And other people are paying other people, selling it through a screen acting like me. That's the biggest part of what I've found, is that even one of my critiques pulled this up. How somebody on Telegram with a verified account is selling my content. And I had no idea I had never been on Telegram. I'm like, what? And then she said that it was me doing it. And so I'm like, well, that's clearly not me. I got my lawyer involved. And we are now, like, in a process to get that completely taken down. Cause someone. These people are posing as me. So that's just like, it's so wrong. And then on top of it, selling explicit content. I've actually. I believe the term for it is called rage porn. Is where they send out a bunch of your stuff for money. It's called rage porn.
- [52:54]
Michael Knowles
Like, they're the ones raging.
- [52:55]
Nala Rae
Yes, they're raging about it. So that's what our lawyer was telling us. So. Yeah. And I just. It's disheartening because you're like, dude, just stop. Like, stop. I don't understand it. I really don't. But people are making money off of it, so I guess that's the motivation behind it. But it is. It can be done. And as time passes, I will be less and less famous and it'll hopefully just die down.
- [53:19]
Michael Knowles
But do you think there will be a difference when there is not one picture, not one video, not or no. Will there always be a little something? You think there will be?
- [53:26]
Nala Rae
I think it'll be great. I mean, the Internet is forever, but. And there's always gonna be little smidgens, like little crumbs. But not to the extent it is now.
- [53:34]
Michael Knowles
Not on the big websites.
- [53:36]
Nala Rae
Yes, there will be something. Something, but not to wear, dispel.
- [53:40]
Michael Knowles
Right. It's horrible. I guess the takeaway for a girl who's doing it is you can fix a lot of this, but the warning to the girl who isn't doing it yet is there's always gonna be some crumb you best believe. Better not to do it at all, actually.
- [53:55]
Nala Rae
Right. It's just too risky. It's too Risky. Because then you then have other people seeing it who you would never want to see that by accident. You have no idea how crazy it is how certain people in my life found out what I did. I was mind blown. It was so embarrassing. So how they found out I was on OnlyFans was because their buddy showed them at work and I was like, why would you talk about that at work? And you weren't even friends with them. That's just your co worker. And it's just odd to me that that's how people operate. But, yeah, if it could deter people from doing it, that is one big deterring. Root people is like, this will never be gone ever, ever, ever, ever. And then you will have to live with that consequence and you'll have to pay money on top of that to get rid of it.
- [54:49]
Jordan
And you got your TikTok agency.
- [54:51]
Nala Rae
Yeah, and I have my TikTok agency. So my agency is called Be the Change. And it's like I feel very passionate about it because I go TikTok live and that was like my main source of income after getting off OnlyFans, it's just going TikTok live. I sit in there in like a hoodie, just talking to people and I do battling and stuff and it's really fun.
- [55:10]
Michael Knowles
You do battling?
- [55:11]
Nala Rae
Battling. It's like where you're put on a split screen on TikTok and people throw gifts at you to win the battle and you can be as excited as you want. It's just completely you on TikTok Live.
- [55:20]
Jordan
That's how we met.
- [55:21]
Nala Rae
Yeah, that's how we met.
- [55:23]
Michael Knowles
The battle is forgive my old age.
- [55:26]
Nala Rae
No, you're fine.
- [55:27]
Jordan
It's basically like your team versus, like.
- [55:29]
Nala Rae
Let'S say the other creator's team.
- [55:31]
Jordan
And, like, who can get the most amount of points on the screen?
- [55:34]
Michael Knowles
How do you get points?
- [55:35]
Nala Rae
Gifting.
- [55:35]
Jordan
Gifting.
- [55:36]
Michael Knowles
And that's by gifting. That's money. How do I sign up for this? That's.
- [55:39]
Nala Rae
I'll sign my agency.
- [55:41]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, cool. All right. I'll be a cool, hip tiktoker. Yeah. Be like a zoomer.
- [55:45]
Nala Rae
Yeah. But along with what Jordan was saying, like, there's a mission. Like, we feel called to. That was another thing. So the biggest question I got was finances. Like, how am I supposed to pay for myself now? Or what can I do before I get on Onlyfans to pay for things like bills or whatever? I say go TikTok live, join my agency, and I'll help you learn how to do this. My agency takes nothing from the creator at all. I'm just here to mentor you in helping you make more money.
- [56:09]
Michael Knowles
Does the agency make money?
- [56:10]
Nala Rae
The agency? So TikTok takes 50% of what the creator makes. It takes 50% of what I make on live, that agency. Like, if I was over myself in an agency, TikTok takes 50%. The agency takes 10% of what TikTok took from the creator.
- [56:27]
Michael Knowles
Oh, getting the money from TikTok. Yeah, that's pretty.
- [56:29]
Nala Rae
Yes. TikTok pays the agencies out, and that's how we do it. Like, I've been talking to quite a few girls in onlyfans and off OnlyFans. Two of them are converts already, have already converted to Christianity after onlyfans, and they would love to join my agency just because they want to be mentored and we get to be friends. And we could just start this mission of helping girls, girls who are worried about finances. Like, if that's your biggest issue, join TikTok. Like, you're not showing your body at all. You can just sit there for all I care. You know what I mean?
- [56:59]
Michael Knowles
Or, like, go work at Starbucks. I don't know. I mean, there are ways to make money. I get it is hard. On the one hand, it is very hard to make a dollar in this world.
- [57:07]
Nala Rae
If you want to be absolutely just sitting at home, here's your remote. Work, go TikTok live. And if you have that much time, go TikTok live all day. Like, it doesn't matter. Build your team up, you know, whatever you have to do. But it focuses in on a different source of money and income. Now, again, you could make more income on TikTok live than you would ever on onlyfans. You really could. For the vast majority. Like, I just got so lucky making that kind of dough. But, yeah, that's what I feel called to as well, is like, it's, you know, in the bible where it talks about, like, don't just pray for somebody to have a shirt. Give them your shirt. You know, don't pray for them to have food. Give them food. You know, this is how I feel in that role, is just. I'm not just gonna pray for you to not join or pray for you to get off here. Here's my TikTok agency. Let me help you, teach you, guide you in this so you can make income in a different way. You know, what's that saying about, like, if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but if you teach him how to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime? That's how I feel too, about it.
- [58:03]
Michael Knowles
There's also something, I suppose too. I guess my first instinct is if a girl's doing OnlyFans, she should throw out all her computers and cameras and just do something totally radically different. However, if that's not gonna happen, there is something also to, hey, you've developed certain skills and some of them you're gonna forget about those skills. But other skills, you can speak into a camera, you can communicate with people, you can, whatever, do social media. If there is an off ramp to OnlyFans, that still involves a lot of that. It's not totally foreign. Maybe that's not the worst thing in the world.
- [58:38]
Nala Rae
I would agree. Because let's say it would just be such a shock if you go from content creating content creating content creating for only fans and then not content creating anymore. It's kind of like a. It's not as crazy as ptsd, but it's quite a shock because it's like that's what you're used to, that's what you do for money. And now you're retraining to do something completely different. You're still like in the audience eye, but you're being clean now. And TikTok will not allow, like nudity, nothing like that. Like, you have to be clean.
- [59:08]
Michael Knowles
You have to.
- [59:08]
Nala Rae
You can't even say certain words. So it's very clean, collected, and you can make good money off of it in the comfort of your own home. Which is the whole lie that Onlyfans tells you is that it's in the comfort of your own home. You're fine, but you're not selling your body on TikTok.
- [59:22]
Michael Knowles
It seems uncomfortable.
- [59:23]
Nala Rae
OnlyFans, it's quite uncomfortable.
- [59:25]
Jordan
Yep. Cause porn is free. You pay with your soul.
- [59:27]
Nala Rae
Yep.
- [59:28]
Michael Knowles
When I make a mistake, I think back on it, maybe. Cause I've been in politics and in show business.
- [59:36]
Nala Rae
What do you mean?
- [59:37]
Michael Knowles
And so I think back on it. It's not, you know, I confess my sins, I move on, I accept God's grace. But I sometimes think back, five years ago, I said this thing. I shouldn't have said this, or oh, I think about that. And it. I'm not saying it haunts my sleep at night, but it comes back to me every so often.
- [59:53]
Nala Rae
That's the Holy Spirit, I believe.
- [59:55]
Michael Knowles
How do you mean?
- [59:56]
Nala Rae
So I feel like the Holy Spirit will. So, okay, going back a little bit. In the book of Psalms 139, it says, like, search me, oh Lord, like, search my heart. And I continually pray that prayer just over Scripture, like, I love reading God's Word to God. I love it. And so when I do that, I find that the Holy Spirit has brought almost visions of the past up in my head. And it's to. I feel like he does it for repentance sake and healing. So this like he brings random things into my brain at random times. And I know I need to practice whether it's a prayer of not repentance, but help me learn and help me grow in this area where I messed up. I'm so sorry for lying there. I'm so sorry for treating this person that way. Or I shouldn't have done this. It's a teachable moment. That's how I feel. Again, Holy Spirit is our teacher. So why wouldn't he recall things that you need to be taught, like bringing back.
- [60:53]
Michael Knowles
I totally agree. I played over in my head this conversation I had six years ago. I actually should have said it this way and maybe that would have been better.
- [61:00]
Nala Rae
And I find that on the whatever podcast, I should have done a couple different things.
- [61:03]
Michael Knowles
Sure, sure. Of course that happens. How often does that come back to you?
- [61:09]
Nala Rae
It's not a set number. It's kind of in my quiet times with the Lord. I love to have my quiet time, like a couple hours before bed. Cause he's off doing something and I can just sit wherever I'm at and have my journaling and Bible time and the awe of God. The book by John Bevere recommended taking 10 to 30 minutes in quiet with Christ and the Holy Spirit. Just welcome him into your atmosphere and think like, just open your mind up to what Holy Spirit's going to lead you into. And sometimes it's visions. Sometimes I get a word. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I need to go here in the Bible. Sometimes it's like praying repentance over something or the shame that I've been feeling. Or sometimes it's just being quiet because he's not speaking all the time. So I'm just like sitting there in this quiet time and I'll get a vision of the past or something with a family member or thinking about my dad. And I just pray over the situation. Now, I didn't do anything against my dad, but I think about him and I'm like, I get this vision of him doing something and I pray over it. I'm like, I don't know why I'm having this thought right now. But you know what? I need your help and guidance in this area. Cause it's really hurting me. So there's healing In a lot of that. And healing has brought me in that scenario. And when I was thinking about my dad, yes, it's tragic what's going on right now, but he is my earthly father and God is my heavenly father, and he would never hurt me like the ways that my dad has hurt me. So there's just like this redirection of my thoughts, and it always points back towards Christ. And that's what I feel like I'm getting out of this time alone. When I get visions of something again, it's not always something special. Sometimes it's just something I need to, like, really pray about.
- [62:54]
Michael Knowles
Are you still speaking to your father amid all this?
- [62:56]
Nala Rae
No, I haven't spoken to him since like last March. So I have a really hard thought in my head to go to see him in prison in a jumpsuit. It's kind of like, will I get traumatized from this? And yes, probably. Yes, certainly you will. But also, how is he gonna respond to me? Cause he wrote me some really horrible emails before he went to jail and.
- [63:18]
Michael Knowles
Like, post conversion or pre conversion?
- [63:21]
Nala Rae
Pre conversion. So he wrote me just some horrible things that a dad should not say to their daughter. And it's just kind of like stuck in my head. And I feel like he truly feels that way about me. And I feel like if I go see him, it'll just be a bad experience. But I also don't want to wait, you know, because I don't know if I'm ever going to see him again because he's in his late 60s and if you have a life sentence at 60s, like, you're not going to get out. So it's kind of a hard concept.
- [63:52]
Michael Knowles
But yeah, difficult thing to work through because you say I have a heavenly father who is a perfect father, and I have this rather imperfect earthly father. You still have to honor your father, even if is awful. So you've got to figure out what to do. It sounds like you don't know what to do.
- [64:13]
Nala Rae
I don't know what to do. I've had some counseling and my counselor's just like, you should write a list, a pro and con list of why you should go see. And I just thought that was the dumbest idea. I'm sorry. I was like, why am I paying for this? Like, this is like such an easy.
- [64:27]
Michael Knowles
How much does this session cost?
- [64:28]
Nala Rae
No, literally, I was like, I just spent $90 on this one. So I'm very torn. I'm still just praying about it because I don't know, I'm tired of being Traumatized. I'm really like. It's. My whole life feels like a big, traumatic thing. And I just want some peace in my life now. Even though we haven't had a lot of peace, I find peace being with my husband, and that is peaceful. But thinking about all my family again just stirs up this, like, feeling of not being wanted. And it's like, a really hard thing for me to continue to grasp is just not being welcomed back into the family that I loved, like, as a kid. So.
- [65:10]
Michael Knowles
And now you have your own family.
- [65:12]
Nala Rae
I have my own family.
- [65:14]
Michael Knowles
You check basically all the boxes of girls who are gonna go into porn. Right. Broken home, tough relationship with your pastor's kid. Yeah, pastor's kid. I guess you check all of those boxes. And I've now spoken to a handful of people who have been on OnlyFans because I've done the Whatever podcast. They fit a type. You know, life is somewhat predictable. It's not totally predictable, but it's somewhat predictable.
- [65:42]
Nala Rae
So human nature is more predictable.
- [65:44]
Michael Knowles
Human nature is a bit more predictable. How do you talk to these women? Do you talk to women who are at risk for this? What is your advice to them? I personally know women who have at least considered going on OnlyFans. I don't know if they did. Hope they didn't. But I do know women who have considered that because of all the reasons.
- [66:07]
Nala Rae
Yeah. Well, there's no one thing I can say. Everybody's different. I understand brokenness, though, and how brokenness puts it. Almost pushes you into this mindset of too different options. You can grow stronger or you can get weaker. So in my head, I'm like, I need full control of my life because it's been out of control this entire time. How do I take control? Even though I was doing porn, I'm like, I have control over this. I chose this.
- [66:37]
Michael Knowles
I own my only fans.
- [66:38]
Nala Rae
I do. Yeah. I'm doing it from home. You know, it's like, I'm the director. But you're really not. You're like a paid director, which they could absolutely substitute at any point. So again, there's no one thing I can say. I can just love. That's it. And love shows through so much. And not just be like, oh, I love you. It could be like, just showing empathy towards what they're going through. Sometimes people just need somebody to hear them. That's it. Like, somebody to absolutely just listen and understand their pain in situations. And it's kind of hard to play therapist. And I'm not trying to. It's more of just listening, being somebody God sent to just be loving and empathetic and listen. Because brokenness drives people to like those two scenarios. Courage or weakness. And it's not really courage courage. It's more like false courage identity. Like, you don't really know, but you're just like, I'm independent. Like, I can do this, but the world makes onlyfans look so delicious, and yet it ends up giving you heartburn and probably tears your stomach. And it just goes all the way through. And you're just. It's like the worst cake you've ever had in your life. But it tasted good at the top. It was good, but it causes so many issues down the line. So if I could warn of any of those issues, if they're open to conversating, and there's been so many that have been. The biggest thing I'm seeing is that they're concerned about finances. I find that to be the number one concern for women who are thinking about going into onlyfans or have already done it or trying to get out. How am I supposed to provide for myself? I'm single, or my boyfriend doesn't work, or my husband's not doing much. How am I gonna provide for myself? This seems like an easy out. It is an easy out, but it comes at such a taxed price that you can't pay it after a certain time. And then you're again in the hamster wheel, slaving away the entire time.
- [68:35]
Michael Knowles
When you say tax, do you mean just literally or you mean metaphorically as well?
- [68:38]
Nala Rae
Both. Honestly, you get taxed very heavily for being on and making that kind of money. Not everybody makes that kind of money.
- [68:44]
Michael Knowles
Basically, no one makes the kind of money you made.
- [68:46]
Nala Rae
But again, you just pay a price for everything that you do, Whether you're just showing bikini photos. You're still causing people to sin by, like, lusting after that. You know, the whole Internet's filled with that. Like IG models, you know, like, that's what they want to show without having an onlyfans. But we're still showing enough skin to make people stumble, to scandalize people.
- [69:09]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, right.
- [69:10]
Nala Rae
So, yeah, again, I'm sorry, I got off a little topic there, but there's not one thing I can say. It just depends on where they're at. Like, what's that breaking point that's going to make them make that decision. But if I can go in and provide value to who they are by just seeing it, observing, praying over them. I've actually prayed over so many People, and obviously not all the time. It works, you know, like, as in, like, God doesn't control you. We are not puppets. We have free will. But I do see it works in.
- [69:39]
Michael Knowles
The grand sense, I guess. Yes.
- [69:40]
Nala Rae
I see God's power working and moving and putting people in place to try to stop those people. But again, it's their decision. So, yeah, I hope that answered your question.
- [69:51]
Michael Knowles
What do you make of the two viral porn moments I've seen in the last two months? One just happened days ago. This woman, blue bonnet or something, she's British, she went into a five guys burger place and someone was secretly recording and she propositioned the cashier and she said, hey, where are the five guys? I want to order the five guys. That was the joke. And then she propositioned the guy and said, come on, after your shift, let's go. And the guy was great, this young guy, he says, actually, I'm a Christian. I'm saving myself until marriage.
- [70:26]
Jordan
Amen. Let's go.
- [70:27]
Michael Knowles
It was great. It's really great. And that was basically the end of the clip. But that went viral and truly within the last 24, 48 hours. And then the other one was this girl who looks kind of like her, but she's younger, who slept with 100 men in a day and says she wants to sleep with 1,000 men in a day. What struck me about both of those episodes, These are the two mainstream porn moments of the last year. I don't know. Neither of them involved any actual nudity or sex with the woman who slept with 100 guys. I don't. I didn't see that going around happily. I just saw a documentary about her where she's fully clothed and she's just talking about this and she's crying and she's clearly upset by it, but putting on a brave face. And then the other girl obviously was fully clothed. She's in a five guys. What do you make of the titillating porn now not even really being directly related to sex?
- [71:29]
Nala Rae
Well, you have to understand that the Internet has. Has boundaries too. At this point, OnlyFans has come in by such a storm that social media sites are really hunkering down on sexualized content. So after a certain point, if your account has been flagged so many times or shadow banned so many times, you have to change things up. You can't do things the way you normally do. But with the girl who wants to sleep with 1000 men to break the world record of it not showing gives you more of like, I need to see, like, you do like your body, you're not showing much at all. You just heard something and now you're so extremely curious. You just have to go find out for yourself, which is a good drive. Like, if I was back in the business, I'd be like A1 marketing right there, you know? Cause you don't always need to show anything. You know, you can just show that she's like an attractive looking woman saying she's gonna get rammed by a thousand guys in a day. That's like, whoa, is that even humanly possible? Almost. So you're not just curious about the porn, you're curious about, is that actually possible?
- [72:37]
Jordan
Right?
- [72:37]
Michael Knowles
You know, how many hours are in a day?
- [72:39]
Nala Rae
It drives so many questions.
- [72:42]
Michael Knowles
I wondered if there was something darker there, which is that the scene that went viral with the girl who slept with 100 guys, it was her kind of crying, tearing up a little. And then with the scene of the woman in the burger place, it's her just debasing herself. And I wondered if we've reached such a point of ubiquity with nudity and sex that actually all that's left to titillate people is just watching outright saying it, right? Just women just degrading themselves in the most pathetic ways. If that's actually. Even if they're fully clothed. I don't. Maybe I'm reading too deeply into it.
- [73:25]
Nala Rae
No, you're not.
- [73:25]
Jordan
You're not. I wouldn't say you are, just because, like, in this generation now, I mean, look at anything being sold. It always involves a woman, you know, so it's always someone who's either dressed sexually or something like that. And it's like, that's what, like, everyone wants to, like, see. But it's like in all reality, it's like a lot of people don't really want to see that. But for people who follow the world, they're like, yeah, let's go, bring it on. You know, what's next? But like, what do you think?
- [73:52]
Nala Rae
I have this idea. I think that it was crazy. I was just talking about this. So follow my line of structuring here. So I feel like, you know, when you are not living for God, the devil will tempt you with all of these things, like sex, all this, like, nudity. Like, it's normal, it's good, it's pleasurous, it's great. When you get married, though, the opposite happens where you almost find, like, you go through points in your marriage where you're just kind of like, we had this moment where we were talking about porn, sex and normal, like loving sex. It's very.
- [74:25]
Michael Knowles
Are you saying they're not the same?
- [74:27]
Nala Rae
No, they're not.
- [74:28]
Michael Knowles
You're shocking every 16 year old boy.
- [74:30]
Nala Rae
You know what? It is different. It's different because of the person. And that covenant that binds you two together is now like, whoa, this is serious. Like this is. We need to take this seriously. But the devil will try to trick you and be like, oh, you're too tired right now for that. Like it's breaking apart your physical sexual bond as a couple. But when you're not married, you're just dating, it's like have sex, it's okay, it's okay. Like that drive for horniness is like there.
- [75:00]
Michael Knowles
That's a good point.
- [75:01]
Nala Rae
I feel that truly. So now we're at the point where girls are getting called bops and like what's a bop? This air headed girl who's just willing to basically sell herself.
- [75:11]
Jordan
I think that's what it means. We don't really.
- [75:12]
Nala Rae
We believe that is what I've been called it multiple times. So whatever this new word means for this new generation, we've been so desensitized throughout generation after generation that it just got more and more and more and more seasoned. And now we're just covered in seasoning and it's just like, here we are world. Here is my private parts. And it's just such a normal thing. I can't imagine what it's gonna be in just 10 years from now if it's already this blunt and like out there. Like I'm not kidding you, if a girl walked up to any guy almost, besides for the guy working at five guys, apparently she'd be able to like get in his pants. Like it's just so cool.
- [75:50]
Michael Knowles
So the bop is that girl. The bop is the girl who's just kind of a caricature of.
- [75:54]
Nala Rae
I don't wanna call her sex craze. She would probably be described as a bop.
- [75:58]
Michael Knowles
That's the, that's the part she's playing obviously.
- [76:00]
Nala Rae
But it's so crazy that we've come this far. That sin is so in your face you could touch it anywhere on your phones. You're scrolling and it's temptation after temptation does not try to hide itself.
- [76:12]
Michael Knowles
I love this point though that when you're not married, the devil tempts you to sleep with everyone around you. And then when you are married, the devil tempts you not to sleep with your spouse. Because there are people who will say, even religious people who take the marriage covenant Sacrament. Seriously, say, oh, well, you really shouldn't. You don't need to sleep with your spouse all the time. But I don't know, being Catholic, I.
- [76:36]
Nala Rae
Can'T agree with you.
- [76:37]
Michael Knowles
There's a little bit of an emphasis on procreation. Traditionally, it's actually considered a sin to deprive your spouse of the marital right.
- [76:44]
Nala Rae
Of outgrowth, because that is not submitting. That's how I feel. And you know what's crazy? There has been times where I'm like, oh, man, I'm just so tired. But that verse comes into my head about submitting to my husband. It is not being a slave to. It is.
- [77:00]
Michael Knowles
There's reason involved there.
- [77:01]
Nala Rae
There is. It's a higher calling. Like, I'm being called to submit to my husband, who I am married to, not to my boyfriend. You know, I'm not here to just please you, you know, so I don't have a boyfriend. I don't want anybody to think that. Oh, my gosh. So you never know.
- [77:16]
Michael Knowles
That's the clip. That's the one they're gonna.
- [77:19]
Nala Rae
I'm talking to an imaginary boyfriend right next to me. So, yes, I feel like it's very prevalent. I've actually talked to quite a few married couples that are Christian and non Christian about just kind of like their scenarios. And when you become very close friends with them, sometimes they'll talk about their sexual life as a married couple. And spicy dinner party, not much eating going on. But so it's kind of like they all share their kind of different kind of stories, takes. And they've all been married in different age ranges, all that kind of stuff. Been through different life events. But I find that sex is not, like, almost as prevalent in some couples as it is in others.
- [78:00]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, certainly.
- [78:01]
Nala Rae
And it's almost like time had kind of worn it down. But it's like, I think as a married couple, that's what separates you from being just buddies. You know, that part of it. Like, it's important. It is extremely important to have sex with the one that you love and are married to, because, again, it's a covenant. And it's what, again, separates you from just being friends, you know, like, that is important to continually tie that back into your marriage and give it to Christ.
- [78:28]
Michael Knowles
It's a really great point. It's funny because we talked earlier about. You've had theological confusion, as has everybody.
- [78:34]
Nala Rae
Yes, I have.
- [78:34]
Michael Knowles
But here you're speaking with great clarity, much greater clarity than I hear, even.
- [78:38]
Nala Rae
Many, because I'm not being cussed at and yelled at and called a whore by a Christian.
- [78:45]
Michael Knowles
Amazing. Amazing.
- [78:46]
Nala Rae
Might be. I don't know.
- [78:47]
Michael Knowles
But, you know, this distinction, what distinguishes a marriage from a couple of roommates or we've redefined marriage in our law at the Supreme Court in a very ridiculous way. But what? Well, spouses sleep together, but boyfriend and girlfriend sleep together. They do. So what distinguishes it and a traditional definition of marriage is that marriage is a union of a man and a woman, a permanent union of a man and a woman for the sake of the procreation and education of children and as a secondary matter, for the mutual support of the spouses. Now, we seem to have flipped that. So we think, oh, it's just about supporting each other in our needs and actually forget about kids and you don't even need to have sex. But if you do, it can be sterile and contraceptive. Oh, that's harsh. I was talking to a friend of mine before this interview and I said, what is it? I was floating my thought on why the mainstream pornography moments are so weird now. He said, well, I think so many people are addicted to pornography and it actually makes them less capable of doing the real thing and less inclined to get married. He said, because they're very different actions. To be, you know, looking at pornography and doing procreative and being procreative, that that's actually the difference. Pornography and the attendant activities are an entirely sterile act. But then, let's take it a little further. So much of our modern culture, many modern marriages are sterile as well. Maybe it's a little bit of a blurrier line in modern life, not as you're describing it.
- [80:25]
Nala Rae
That's a good point, though. It can be. We've seen from different couples that it seems to be very sterile. And we even promise ourselves, like, we're never getting there. Like we will do anything it takes to put us above kids or, you know, whatever it may be. But we are important to each other and we always want to share that importance because it's special. It's something that we've dedicated our now future to, our entire future to. So that's pretty important to work on, I think. And I think honestly, sex in marriage is like 40% of the marriage for.
- [80:59]
Michael Knowles
Me, not as a matter of hours.
- [81:01]
Nala Rae
There's a lot of moving parts. But I think it's so important to have intimacy. It's not just sex. It is intimacy.
- [81:07]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. This is one of the arguments against contraception. Now. We live in a very contraceptive age, but one of the arguments against it is in a marriage, you're supposed to give fully of yourself, one to another. And so you can get pretty close. But with contraception, you are withholding something, you're holding something back, you know. But to say that people are gonna go crazy just hearing that in this interview. Cause even religious people, even conservative people, even, they'll say, well, hold on a second here. You mean really radically, totally give of yourself and be totally open to life?
- [81:40]
Nala Rae
Yes.
- [81:40]
Michael Knowles
What percentage of people, even who are married behave that way, huh? I don't know.
- [81:45]
Nala Rae
A very small percentage, I'd say. Because if you get into a marriage and you are not willing to change, you will have problems for the rest of your life. Because the biggest thing we have learned in this marriage and through arguments and disagreements, is that it is no longer about you.
- [82:04]
Jordan
Yep.
- [82:05]
Nala Rae
You need to take your expectations off the table. Because we all have expectations. Maybe not about the full marriage, but when circumstances happen, you have an expectation almost immediately. If you take that away and leave the canvas open, it's more beautiful that way. And you don't feel like your painting has been now messed up. It is just a blank canvas and you can appreciate the art in that. So sacrifice is a big thing. You need to be willing to sacrifice even little things sometimes.
- [82:34]
Michael Knowles
Especially little things.
- [82:35]
Nala Rae
Especially little things. That's most what people argue about is.
- [82:37]
Jordan
Small things, littlest things, things that don't matter.
- [82:39]
Michael Knowles
Do we go to Chinese food or Burger King tonight?
- [82:42]
Nala Rae
Yes. Neither, please. I'll just cook it. It's okay. But yeah, I just feel like again, sacrifice is the most humbling thing you can do to humble yourself before your spouse and just let's see what God can do here. Like, you have an idea, I have an idea. Let's put it together. Let's workshop it a little bit. But let's really try to avoid an argument through this. Talking harshly. We got it. We can do that, you know, but like absolutely blowing up now. We used to have those arguments too. Like, it's just hard when you have so much on your plate as a brand new married couple. It's difficult, totally overwhelming. And you both deal with things differently. And then you have to understand the way they deal with things and it has to become like a pattern to you so you understand it. Like when we started fighting, I understood, like, I get to see him do the exact same thing in every fight. I'm like, okay, this is how he operates, but how am I operating now? Because like, it affects him this way. So how can I not even just change, but redirect. Like, let's, let's go a healthier option here. And it's actually helped in our arguments so much, just letting each other finish respecting the time that they have and what their thought process was or is on a certain topic and then kind of going from there.
- [84:03]
Michael Knowles
There are two kinds of debates. The kind where you do it on TV and it's to totally destroy the other guy for the benefit of the audience to persuade them. But then there's the debate you have with your friend or your spouse, which there's nothing good to be gained from totally destroying with facts and logic, the other person, because this other person is part of your flesh. I mean, you're one flesh. So you have to bring them along or you can get divorced. Now, some people are betting against your marriage.
- [84:29]
Nala Rae
Oh, yeah.
- [84:30]
Jordan
I will take you on that bet and I'll raise you $10.
- [84:34]
Michael Knowles
You will?
- [84:34]
Jordan
Or 500,000.
- [84:36]
Nala Rae
Well, I just think that's like the enemy speaking clearly. The enemy does not want people.
- [84:40]
Michael Knowles
Is there any circumstance in which you would ever get divorced? Any certain. Not one.
- [84:43]
Nala Rae
Cheating.
- [84:44]
Michael Knowles
Cheating. You would get divorced.
- [84:45]
Nala Rae
Adultery. Well, that's both.
- [84:47]
Michael Knowles
I wouldn't get divorced for cheating.
- [84:48]
Nala Rae
It depends if I.
- [84:49]
Michael Knowles
Some would argue it's not biblical, but I understand the version.
- [84:52]
Nala Rae
Yeah. Well, like, let's say he cheated or committed adultery. I would first go to the Lord to see if that was actually what he wanted. Because people can stay and work through issues and the mistrust. But if God was like, yeah, straight off, I'd break. Bye. Like, bye. It would obviously hurt so, so much and vice versa. But that would be the only scenario where I'd actually consider a divorcement. Like divorcing. Divorcement, a word.
- [85:20]
Michael Knowles
We can make it a word. Language is evolving.
- [85:22]
Nala Rae
Continue to make up words on your show. We should just write a whole, like, Nala dictionary.
- [85:26]
Michael Knowles
I love that that is the one case because I like the $10 bet. I think that's great. You know, I love that attitude of I will not divorce my wife. One of your chief critics and I, we were having a conversation about this and I said. She said, would you divorce your wife? And I said, there is no circumstance in which I would ever divorce my wife. She said, what about adultery? And I said, no, that would be terribly painful. It would make my life a misery for a great deal of time. But there is no circumstance in the universe in which I would ever divorce my wife. And she was shocked by this, scandalized by this. Now, I would make a bet of any number of dollars that my wife would not do that. But it does happen in Certain marriages it does. And I would say even then what God has joined, let no man separate. It would seem to me that as a matter of the natural law and certainly of our Lord coming down in the new covenant, divorce is just off the table. And the reason that I think it's really important as a practical day to day matter is if you know that there's no way out, if you know that you are just with this person for the rest of your natural life, I think you're gonna be much more likely to make things work and to support your spouse and actually to flourish in every minute of the day than if you think there's even the slightest.
- [87:00]
Nala Rae
Chance of a plan B. Of a plan B. Yeah, I agree with that. We don't believe in divorce at all. We just know what the Bible says about divorce and like the only option pretty much is adultery. But again, God saves people out of divorce and I fully believe in that power. So that would never be something we want. We don't joke about divorcing. We don't ever bring it up in like a hateful way. It's not like a word we use because it's not in our forefront. We want to work it out. And if anything, God is here to help us work things out. So I'm like, that's again, goes back to not being selfish in your marriage. If you are selfish and self sufficient and everything is about you or your other partner, it's not going to work. You will carry this resentment through your marriage because you didn't get the, like, you didn't get what you wanted. That's not what marriage is. It's what both of you can accomplish together and as a team. And I just find that we've found that so nicely. It's not been easy and there's been a lot of sacrifices on both ends, but it's been such a learning journey and there's just been so much love through it. Like so much grace from both him and I. Like when he messes up, I find that God is calling me to be graceful and then same with him.
- [88:20]
Jordan
Like if my thing is like, if we can make it through this and like be joyous, like coming out of makes me kind of like question people getting married now, getting divorced after a year because I'm like, one, we got married fast, but two, also we're going through the craziest thing that happened to us like in less than a year and we're still strong. You know, it's just like, I guess like the question would Be. What is the strength that we have that other marriages lack just based off the first year?
- [88:55]
Michael Knowles
So what's the answer?
- [88:56]
Jordan
I would honestly just say God, but also the ability to see her as more than an object, but also as my best friend and partner who, like, I'm on this mission with. You know, it's like, I know she has my six, and I know I have her six.
- [89:15]
Nala Rae
Oh, yeah.
- [89:15]
Jordan
And it's like our mission is to spread the gospel. You know, it's like this life here on Earth is very temporary. You know, like I said before, like, I'm not guaranteed the next five minutes. So it's like, I'm gonna live, like it's my last day, you know, my last day with her. So it's like, I'm gonna continuously try to do my best for her and also for God. So it's like, for me and for anyone else out there, it's just, like, really dig in. Because, like, this is the area where it's like, you're testing out your battle. Like, you're testing. This is your battleground. So it's like, are you gonna fight or are you gonna give up?
- [89:54]
Michael Knowles
That's an insightful observation, that you and your spouse are not merely there for the enjoyment of one another. You are actually doing something together. Because I cringe a little when I hear people refer to their spouse or their boyfriend or girlfriend as their partner. You're not using it that way, but when they'll introduce you, say, this is my partner, Skyler or something. And I think, oh, you guys have an accounting firm together? Oh, you guys are homosexuals? Sometimes. A man and a woman. This is my partner. Your partner? What is a.
- [90:26]
Nala Rae
In what?
- [90:27]
Michael Knowles
What do you mean, your partner? Or they'll say, oh, I'm just so glad I found, you know, my person who this happens. I go. I go to weddings sometimes my more liberal relatives and friends and people write their own vows, and it's teehee, I promise always to put the socks in the hamper. Oh, yeah, I promise to make you a margarita on Saturday. Maybe I'm too much of a curmudgeon, but the focus at a deeper level seems to be on how is this person gonna amuse me? And how am I gonna amuse this person? And how are we all gonna just have kind of a fun time? But what you're describing is, no, we're doing something. And so in this case, you're describing evangelism and missions. But even at the basic level of a marriage. What is a marriage? We were talking about The Trinity earlier.
- [91:15]
Nala Rae
Yes.
- [91:15]
Michael Knowles
Right. You have God the Father eternally begetting, God the Son and the Holy Ghost, who is the bond of love between the Father and the Son. The love between the Father and the Son is so real that he is a person of the Trinity, consubstantial in the Godhead, one God. And you think within a marriage, husband and a wife love each other so much that in principle, some people suffer infertility, but in principle, they love each other so much that another human being is made out of that. That's a pretty astounding fact. And now all of a sudden you have this family which is bigger than either of you individually or even the sum of its parts. And that is doing something that is moving through time and space. There's an activity to it. You're not just sitting in a room figuring out where to go to brunch next.
- [92:03]
Nala Rae
Yeah, absolutely. We feel called to the mission field. Whatever God has called us to. We don't know what that looks like. But sometimes God doesn't give you the full picture. He'll just give you pieces. And right now, those pieces look like, for me, reaching out to the women in this industry, before the industry and post the industry. So. And for him just really helping men develop. We are called to be disciples. So that's all we consider ourselves, is just discipling others with the knowledge that we hold in Holy Spirit teaching through us. Cause, like, there's so many times where I'm talking and I'm like, I'll look back on that. I'm like, wow, that's so powerful. Like, that's incredible. Thank you, Holy Spirit, so much for just guiding me. Literally. Where did that come from? So it's been quite an amazing journey speaking to the amount of people that we've spoken to. Like, it's been crazy because it's different people from, like, all different kinds of walks of life. And you're like, I don't know how to help you in this area directly. However, let's sit down and pray about this. Let's get some discernment on this. Because we don't know and you don't know clearly. So let's talk to the one who does know about it. So all we can do is continue to lead people towards Christ, like you were referring to in your last video defending me. That should be the point. That's the point of all of this. Like, again, everything could be stripped from us, like Job. But the whole point of it is to be a servant of Christ, servant, a disciple Somebody to help others. We're not here for ourselves in this temporary residence. And even in heaven, we won't be there for ourselves. We'll be there for God. So just live a servant's life.
- [93:43]
Michael Knowles
Seems like the direction is what's really important here. Because you think you talk to someone and they can't perfectly articulate, I don't know, the nature of the Trinity or something. And you think, well, I can better articulate that. And I think, well, hold on. There are a lot of things that I can't articulate that someone like St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas could articulate better. But then you think, St. Thomas Aquinas, probably the greatest theologian ever to live, he had a mystical vision. He said, everything I've written is like straw. He wanted to burn his works because he said, okay, he had a mystical vision of God. He said everything, and he wrote very well of God. But in our limited human reason, is there really all that much difference between someone who's been living the faith for 10 years and a catechumen or a novice or someone who's just kind? Maybe there's that much difference, but the difference between that and the reality of God is infinite. So isn't it just. If you can talk to these young women or to these young men just kind of going down the wrong path and you kind of just help turn them a little bit and, you know, as long as they keep moving in the right direction, that seems rather good, right?
- [94:51]
Nala Rae
And we're not always planting the seeds. Sometimes those seeds have been planted by others, but we need to come along with some water or some sunlight or just continue to fertilize that seed until it actually can get out of the ground. You know, being grounded is a hard thing, like being a seed. Think about how difficult it is being underground with all of this dirt on top of you. You're not seeing sunlight. You're just getting drowned in water, and you're just, like, stuck. But then when there's growth, it's like this breaking point. You're breaking through the soil, and you're like, oh, the sun was there this whole time. Like, I'm finally better now. But you needed those people that God put in place to help come along and help that process along. So if I'm just one of those people who just helps fertilize or helps water or helps be the sun or actually plants the seed, I'm here for it.
- [95:40]
Michael Knowles
So how do you grow the seed? For the men we've talked about, the women who are in porn or onlyfans. And that's a whole thing own difficulty. But probably the broader problem, the more widespread problem is these young men who are the ones looking at porn. So what do you tell them? Very practically.
- [96:01]
Jordan
So for me, myself, like I used to struggle with porn up until a couple years ago, where God really just set me free from that. And I was just, I just needed to let go because like the biggest struggle for men because I feel like over 50% of men, if not over 80% of men have seen porn or watched porn. But my whole thing is like I would always be in that moment where I'd be like, all right, just like just one more time, one more time. Where it was just, just one more time. Exactly, exactly. It was like, day one, I gotta stop. You know, one day or day one, you know, I gotta stop. I gotta make the decision to actually stop. You know, what does the Bible say about sexual sin? Flee from sexual sin, do not fight it, you know, because you're not gonna win. You're not gonna win at all. So that's where I let really just God take over control. Where I was just like, all right, I gotta actually start doing things to keep me away from this path. And what I've implemented, I started a discord where men like can just click by link and join. And it's just a bunch of group of guys. My friend Nadine's actually helping all the girls. They're kinda like they're separated groups, but.
- [97:11]
Michael Knowles
Girls who perform in porn or girls who look at porn.
- [97:13]
Nala Rae
Struggles.
- [97:14]
Jordan
Yeah. Struggling with lust. Struggling with lust.
- [97:16]
Michael Knowles
Broadly.
- [97:17]
Jordan
Yeah. Cause it's called lust to life. So we do daily check ins. I'll throw stuff in there and I have a couple other people helping me as well. But it's pretty much just helping each other. Just when they're in their weak moments, just messaging in the chat or having their accountability partner and just reaching out to them, calling them be like, yo, I'm struggling with this. You just pray for me. Can you just help and just stay on the phone so we can just like talk to just distract me from, you know, that urge the enemy tried to put in my life. So for me it's just like I feel really called just to help the men, you know, not because of her past, but like even just help the men. I've been helping men just before, like we even met. Yeah, I've been helping men just like get closer and break free out of that. Because I know exactly how hard that struggle is to break free.
- [98:05]
Michael Knowles
And porn must Be the most widespread sin that men deal with. I'm not saying it's even the worst sin, though. It's a bad one. Cause it traps you. It's easy. But it must be the most widespread. There aren't that many people doing carjackings.
- [98:21]
Jordan
They mean Chicago. But for me, it's just like, yeah, lust is the biggest thing. Like what I said before, it's everywhere. You see it on billboards, magazines, anywhere you look. There's something that lust. And that's always like the entry point, like the gateway to, you know, watching porn. You know, that's how you have, like, minors watching porn. And it's like it's too accessible one. Like, it's gotta start with the parents. But yeah, you have to be able to help these people before they even step in that doorway. Of like, okay, you know, this is a little risque, but like, I'm gonna stay away from it, you know, rather than take the step into it. Like maybe just a peak. No, that peak is a straight elevator shaft that you're gonna fall down and you're not gonna know where the button is to get back up. But God does. He's the light, you know, he's the light in the shaft where it's like the button's right there.
- [99:13]
Michael Knowles
I have noticed this just in my own life, that if I am in a state of grace, I can resist sin pretty well. Not really through power of my own, but I can resist sin thanks to God's grace. And then sometimes you're tempted by a sin. And it can be not just lust. It can be an angry word, or it can be pride, or it can be anything. It can be any sin. And there is a moment where you're tempted, but you could say no. But the moment you start entertaining it, considering it, indulging it, then you're gonna be more tempted. And then once you commit it. The kind of traditional understanding of this from the Johanian Epistle is that there's mortal sin and venial sin. And venial sin wounds you and mortal sin cuts off the life of grace. And when you. In my experience, when one commits a mortal sin, it's a lot easier to sin and it's much harder not to sin. And one can confess one's sins and receive absolution and, you know, be restored to a state of grace. But some people who are unfamiliar with this are gonna think it sounds kind of pie in the sky. Woo woo. I found this to be very practical, very tangible, that the moment you start to cooperate with Sin rather than with God, it's like down a mineshaft. It's not a gradual sort of thing.
- [100:36]
Nala Rae
Right. It just gets so much more slippery. Like, it gets easier and easier, and your justifications in your head continue to justify what you're doing. And then it goes back to the whole, like, well, I'll just get saved or I'll just repent later. God will forgive me. But the Bible also talks about that, like, you actually knowing that you're going to sin and then sinning, like, you have the thought process of going into it that you know you're sinning and that's a sin.
- [101:01]
Michael Knowles
That's the sin of presumption.
- [101:02]
Nala Rae
There you go. Just too many sins. There's a lot.
- [101:05]
Michael Knowles
There's a lot you could commit, but.
- [101:06]
Nala Rae
It'S obviously not gonna happen in this lifetime. But there is so much grace. Like, I feel like a lot of people like to think of God as like, this big guy who's just gonna squash you with his thumb. But there's so much grace and mercy. But it also goes into fearing God. You can love God, but if you do not fear him, you will not obey him. You will. Yeah. So I also read a really great book about that, too. And it really put into perspective about, you know, I was like, really diving deep into, like, what is it that to fear God? It's not just like, trembling. And now people did that in the Bible where they were just trembling over seeing an angel or hearing God's voice, you know, not even fully seeing him, but like Moses with the burning bush, just trembling. I'd probably tremble too, in his presence. Oh, I would too. I'd be so scared. But respect you respect. If you respect someone, you are following them. You know, like, you understand the decisions they're making, or maybe you don't, and you still follow them, for that's like mad respect for who they are, what they've done. And we all need to reserve this place in our hearts where there is fear of the Lord. Like, we fear God, we will obey him. Yes. That's why it's called the Awe of God. I love that book.
- [102:19]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. And even you point out there's so many sins, and there are so many sins. But a priest pointed this out to me. We misunderstand sin a lot. We think sin is breaking a rule. It's not really a rule. To your point on grace, sin is a violation of a relationship of grace. And there are rules, and the rules are guardrails to help you navigate that. But I'd be Curious. Your experience talking to these guys who are reaching out for help. Sin is not just, okay, I'm gonna look at that website, but not that one. But that one's not great either. But it's like, that's technically on this side of the. That's not really how it works, Right? You kind of know, and more to it, God knows, and God knows that you know, and you're not really fooling anybody.
- [103:06]
Jordan
Yeah, because, like, the one thing about God is, like, he can hear your thoughts, so he knows your intentions. You know, the devil doesn't know your intentions, but God does, right? So it's like God's also going to search your intentions, you know, on judgment Day, he's going to search the intentions you did, you know, behind closed doors, you know, what you thought about certain things or what you did for certain reasons. And it's like God's gonna judge you accordingly. So everyone thinks they're Scott, like, free and clear, Scot free. And, like, even though the people you're around might be like, oh, my gosh, you know, like, yeah, yeah. But God knows your intention. So God's gonna just, you, like, justify, you know, what's going on.
- [103:46]
Michael Knowles
You know, a lot of people flip that and they say, no, well, look, I do bad things all the time, and I put myself in the near occasion of sin and. But in a really abstract way, you know, I've kind of got good intentions, so. Well, maybe it's, like, based on what? Yeah, also, how about the other way around? When you do something that you're trying to argue is technically okay, or you're doing something that seems right, but with really bad intentions.
- [104:09]
Nala Rae
Kind of like my haters.
- [104:13]
Michael Knowles
Like, you're.
- [104:14]
Nala Rae
Doing something right by lying, but you're actually lying, you know, but like. And there's no intent behind it. It goes on and on and on. There is no intent behind any of it, you know, and that's what also helped us, like, get over all the hate was like, oh, these people are just talking. They're just talking to talk and be noticed, which you're actually blaming me for. So it's, like, kind of funny. It's kind of like that hypocrisy behind it is like, you think, I'm just over here trying to get famous, but you're using me for fame.
- [104:41]
Michael Knowles
So that's a lot of ankle biting that happens for sure. But it is unpleasant. You know, one shouldn't paper over it. They say very nasty things about you.
- [104:52]
Jordan
Oh, yeah.
- [104:52]
Michael Knowles
Oh, we know it's fair and we.
- [104:54]
Nala Rae
Get it in our DMs all the time.
- [104:55]
Michael Knowles
You'll be shocked to hear that even for so lovable a figure as I. Sometimes people will say nasty things about me and is unpleasant. Now, I think this might be a very Catholic perspective where we kind of focus on the sanctifying aspect of suffering. But I think there can be something good about it when you get all the hate.
- [105:14]
Nala Rae
How so?
- [105:15]
Michael Knowles
Well, one, it's when we suffer, we bind ourselves to Christ, who has the perfect sacrifice on the cross. So in a very minuscule way, yes. But also it does keep you humble. Because the thing is, the haters get a lot of things wrong and they make stuff up. But sometimes, most of the time it's comical, but sometimes they'll say, oh, you shouldn't have said it that way. That sounded stupid, or, you didn't do this. And sometimes they got a point. Maybe sometimes you do say something stupid. Maybe sometimes you do something that you shouldn't have done. And so it is a good way to mitigate pride. It's one of the reasons I don't really block people very much on social media. Wow.
- [105:56]
Nala Rae
I like that it's a little glass half full. Unless they're just being outright inappropriate with me. But, yeah, I would actually agree with you. And I haven't even seen it in that light. It was more just, okay, God, I accept the haters too. Like, you know, help me love them like you love them. That's all I can really do about it because I'm not about to just start commenting back or making videos now about what's going on, you know, or being not gracious because now it's like I'm just acting like you now and not like Christ. And what would Christ do in this situation? Most likely just forgive them and love them and. And, you know, it's a hard road.
- [106:36]
Jordan
It's a hard road.
- [106:36]
Nala Rae
It's a hard road. If I was dealing with this maybe two and a half years ago, I would have reacted very differently and probably squandered their name online, of course. But I can't do that anymore because I do not represent me. I represent Christ. So I think that's the biggest lesson we've probably taken out of all of this. Just concentrated hate against him, against me. People just call him a simp all the time. And I'm like, well, okay, that's great. Like, cool word. You like gentlemen?
- [107:05]
Michael Knowles
I don't know the etymology of it, but it's kind of funny.
- [107:07]
Nala Rae
Don't understand it, but yeah, it's fun.
- [107:12]
Jordan
Pretty much. It comes down to, it's like, God gets the glory, we get to tell the story.
- [107:17]
Nala Rae
Ooh, pop off.
- [107:20]
Michael Knowles
I like that line. I have a friend in the Bronx who says, buddy boy, you do your best, gotta do the rest. That's another one like that.
- [107:26]
Jordan
There we go. There we go.
- [107:27]
Nala Rae
That's a good one.
- [107:28]
Michael Knowles
I've never heard that God gets the glory, you tell the story.
- [107:31]
Jordan
Yeah, my dad always says that.
- [107:32]
Nala Rae
So that's good. That's good.
- [107:35]
Michael Knowles
Now this is a catch up. This is the only repeat guest we've ever had, though we haven't ever met.
- [107:40]
Nala Rae
Wow, that's so special.
- [107:41]
Michael Knowles
Yes, well, really shook the Internet the first time you came on. And I think the story is really quite lovely and deserves to be told. But it's been a year. So your marriage is going well, there are difficulties in your family, but all the, the vicissitudes of life happen. How has your faith changed from your conversion to now?
- [108:07]
Nala Rae
I want to blur so many things out. I'll start with this. My faith has grown in every single day since I've been saved. There's not been like one day where I haven't concentrated time to Christ, whereas I'm praying, I'm journaling, I'm reading my Bible, I'm listening to sermons, listening to worship music and having that time together. It's grown in ways that I really can't explain because I can't explain God very well. But my relationship with him has taken a turn where I feel like I'm truly myself with him. Instead of praying like I think I need to pray. I'm like, God, how can I pray to you? Teach me. I feel like I'm in a very teachable time in my life where I just need to be open to what God has for me and not make assumptions about things because I've been very wrong. So humbling. It's been very humbling and teachable. That's. If I could describe it in two words, that would probably be it because I find that every single time I pray I'm running into something where it's like, oh, I didn't see it like this, like, I'm so sorry. Or I took this verse one way when you were trying to take it a different way. Or, you know, it's just constantly either apologizing to him, or it's just more like, teach me more like, what else can I get from you? And I know there's immeasurable amounts, so I'm really looking forward to that. Journaling's probably Been something that has been almost like a therapist to me. I write down revelations in the book of Habakkuk. God says to write down your revelations, like, what God has done. And I found that so powerful because I can look back and see prayers that I've prayed and been answered. And what I found out of that is that God truly cares about your heart and your heart's intent and your feelings. But God cares about your heart in ways where. When I've prayed about my marriage, I see that result. God, it answers my prayer in my marriage because he knows that's part of my heart. So I'm like, wow, it has brought so many revelations through tiny prayers. And just being so real with God about how I'm feeling and even admitting this was a concept very hard for me to understand. But even admitting in my prayer, God, you know what? I wasn't trusting you at all with this. I thought I had this way better than you did. I didn't believe you when you told me this promise in your word. I'm sorry. I thought you were a liar. Like, it. Is that, like, sensitive? Like, that's how I feel. Like my relationship with. Is him. With him is just very sensitive, humbling, and growing in crazy ways. Like, you know, when I became a Christian, I just thought so much was gonna change. And it did. It did. But in.
- [111:00]
Michael Knowles
And also, nothing changes.
- [111:01]
Nala Rae
And also, nothing changes. So. As in, yes, I gave me a lot of stuff, but I'm still me.
- [111:07]
Jordan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [111:07]
Nala Rae
So it's like, what else do you wanna reveal to me, God? Like, what is it like? You've given me this marriage, you've given me a partner to now pray over. It is not just about me. It is also about him. And I've gotten so many amazing books like Power of a Praying Wife and that's an amazing book. I love her.
- [111:25]
Michael Knowles
But it's an amazing paradox that in some respect, everything changes. Every single thing changes. And in another respect, nothing changes.
- [111:38]
Nala Rae
Nothing changes. Human behavior doesn't tend to change.
- [111:42]
Michael Knowles
I find we can grow in virtue.
- [111:45]
Nala Rae
Grow in virtue? Yes. I'm more talking about not like human nature. Yeah, yeah. Just not doing. Only fans. I haven't changed, but like, in other ways where I've been so stubborn or unwilling to sacrifice or not humble and prideful even. So this has just been an amazing journey for me. I've learned so much. I've had so many tears with God, and it's just so precious because for everything that I'm going through with God, there's been answers. Or if There hasn't been answers. I just know that I need to obey. That is it. And I'm not always gonna get the answer why I need to obey. So it's just obey.
- [112:24]
Michael Knowles
10,000 questions. Don't make one doubt. There's a wonderful charm to saying, okay, I'm gonna start praying. I guess my first prayer is, how should I pray? How does one pray? That's a great way to think about it. Your point on prayers, Answered prayers. This happens to me. I will pray for something. Sometimes I have broader prayers, and sometimes I'll pray for something very, very specific. Then my prayer will be answered. And it will take me days or weeks to realize that my prayer was answered. I won't even remember same.
- [112:54]
Nala Rae
And that's why I have to write them down. Like, last night, it just happened. I was praying over something in our marriage. God answered it. I literally. I was just about to fall asleep, and I was like, write down the revelation. I wrote it down on my phone notes and then wrote it down in my journal to. And I was like, I just want to remember. Cause we. Sometimes our minds are just faulty. And I don't ever want the devil to be like, did he really. I'm like, read back. This is what actually happened. Like, this is what my God did for me in my life and has changed me drastically because of this, like, this answer that he gave me to my prayer.
- [113:28]
Michael Knowles
Even seeing new things, I pray the rosary just about every day. And the Rosary, you pray five mysteries, which are the decades, and you meditate on the mysteries. And you. So and it's every day, it's a little bit different. So there's the glorious mysteries, there's the resurrection, the Ascension, the descent of the Holy Spirit, the Assumption, the coronation. Then there are the sorrowful mysteries, you know, the agony in the garden, the scourging at the pillar, the crowning of thorns, the carrying the cross, and the crucifixion. Then there are the joyful mysteries, the Annunciation, and through the birth of our Lord, and the presentation, finding Jesus in the temple. And I've. But that's about it. Some people pray another set of mysteries, but those are the three that I pray. I've prayed them a billion times. So you think how it's gotta get kind of boring after a while, right? It's the same prayers and the same mysteries. I've noticed when I pray my rosary actively and I'm not distracted and I'm not driving or something, I'm really actively praying. I see something new when I pray them. I See something new about Calvary. I see something new about the Nativity. I see something new about. About the presentation or finding Jesus in the temple. Something new happens. And you think, I bet I could pray this for the rest of my life and for another 10,000 lives, and I would always see something new, because these are mysteries that are endlessly plumbable.
- [114:47]
Nala Rae
I think it's because God is a mystery. It's not that almost every single one of those situations is a mystery, but God himself is a mysterious God, and we won't fully even comprehend him until we get to heaven. So I find that, too, in my relationship where I find out a new thing and I'm like, oh, you know what? I need to tear down that wall of what was built up in thought that I thought was sure in a fact, and it's not. So being humble in that and then rereading certain scriptures does that to me all the time. I'm like, I had no idea. Or listening to sermons where a pastor's explaining a passage of scripture, and it's like, wow, I didn't even understand that. Like, when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were in the fiery furnace. It doesn't say that the boys saw Jesus in there with him. It says that the king saw him, but it doesn't take notice of the fact that the boys did not see him in the furnace with him. You know, they just knew he was going to be with them, you know, And I was like, huh, See, that's just a very tiny example of certain things that I've been learning. And I'm like, wow, just. Scripture just constantly changes because it's the living word of God. It is not a dead word of God. It is living. It is alive. It has a new meaning, and it's beautiful. It's so beautiful.
- [116:00]
Michael Knowles
That's lovely.
- [116:01]
Nala Rae
Thank you.
- [116:02]
Michael Knowles
How about your faith life? No, you were already Christian.
- [116:04]
Jordan
Yeah, yeah. You want me to go into, like, the whole thing? So basically, I became a Christian in 2021 after a really rough relationship. And, yeah, I mean, I've just been going straight towards God. That's. That's like, the biggest thing. And he's been really just helping me through life in general and especially just, like, being married and actually taking that first step, you know, getting married. You know, I've always wanted to get married, and finally now I'm married. But it's like, what do I have to. Like, who do I have to be? And what do I have to do as a husband in marriage? Like, cultivating your wife, you know, leading her closer to God, all these different things, but also, most importantly, like, how can I improve her? You know, how can I improve, you know, the way I treat her? How can I improve her life, you know, both spiritually and, like, physically? But also it comes into the point of, like, all right, so God did this for me. How can I have other people experience this love? Because as a generation, every single person who is single right now, or maybe even with somebody, everyone just wants love. Everyone wants to be seen, heard, understood, valued, and just feel important. And it's like a lot of people will go to porn to feel something, will go to alcohol, go to drugs, all these different things. But in the end, it's like all they want to feel is love. They want to feel something. And that's what God was able to do in my life and able to do in her life is he was able to really just show me that there's more than the world. There's more than just trying to fill that empty void with something that's going to be gone the next day. You know, there's more to life than just self. It's when you start acting selflessly is when life actually starts to change and when you can actually be the change in the world, you know, be the change that you want to see.
- [118:07]
Michael Knowles
And I like this focus on doing things. There's an insight of St. Augustine who argues against the Pelagians, who say you basically earn your salvation, but he's also arguing against the idea that you don't have to do anything at all. And he says it's summarized as, God made you without your participation, but he won't save you without your participation.
- [118:29]
Nala Rae
Wow.
- [118:30]
Michael Knowles
You don't save yourself, he said. But St. Paul says in First Corinthians that he is doing these things. You know, he should be the least of the apostles, but he's actually doing more than them. But he's doing them with God's grace. It's really. It's not, as St. Augustine says, it's not just God's grace. It's certainly not just him. It's with God's grace. It's impossible without God's grace, But he's doing stuff. You know, St. Paul had a rough go of things, but it didn't even maybe feel like a rough go of things because he's doing it for the glory of God.
- [119:00]
Jordan
Yep.
- [119:01]
Michael Knowles
Beautiful. Lovely to see you. Lovely to see you both again. I didn't see you on camera last night. Yes, I saw you off camera. I'M glad to see things are going well because, you know, you judge the tree by the fruit.
- [119:10]
Nala Rae
Oh, absolutely.
- [119:11]
Jordan
That's how you do it.
- [119:12]
Michael Knowles
All right, well, I'll see you next time. See you next time. After the next round of racism, we'll do the third. We'll see when that is.
- [119:19]
Nala Rae
They're gonna go crazy over this.
- [119:21]
Michael Knowles
Thank you both for coming on.
- [119:22]
Jordan
Of course. Thank you for having.