Podcast Summary: The Michael Knowles Show — "You're WRONG Knowles!" After That, The Dark | Andrew Klavan

Date: November 30, 2025
Host: Michael Knowles
Guest: Andrew Klavan
Podcast: The Michael Knowles Show (The Daily Wire)

Episode Overview

This episode revolves around the importance of the arts in culture and politics through a lively discussion between Michael Knowles and novelist/commentator Andrew Klavan. Using Klavan’s latest novel, After That, The Dark, as a springboard, they tackle the philistinism in conservative circles, the unique nature of American art, the relationship between high culture and genre fiction, and the broader cultural struggle involving media, storytelling, and snobbery. The conversation is peppered with humor, literary references, and deeper musings on what makes culture tick.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Genesis of "After That, The Dark" & Tennyson’s Influence

• [04:05] Knowles introduces Klavan’s new book and the origin of its title—drawn from Tennyson’s poem "Crossing the Bar," which reflects on death and eternity.
• Klavan explains: "It was about dying. It was about sailing off into eternity." – Andrew Klavan [04:05]
• Knowles and Klavan briefly recite and discuss the poem’s significance and Klavan’s attachment to it.

2. Why Conservatives Should Embrace the Arts

• [04:33] Klavan laments conservatives’ reluctance to engage deeply with fiction or the arts, calling this "conservative philistinism."
  • Klavan: "It's to enlarge your imagination so that you perceive the world in a bigger way… If you're not reading me, you are literally not supporting conservatives in the art." – Andrew Klavan [04:41]
• Knowles admits he only occasionally reads fiction, often due to professional obligations, and never sustains the habit despite enjoying the benefits.
  • Knowles: "My soul feels bigger…I'm viewing the world in a new and interesting way. And then I say, well, I'm never doing that again." – Michael Knowles [05:30]
• Klavan compares this to people who try prayer once, find it works, and then stop.

3. Art as Preparation for Life and Politics

• [06:08] Klavan stresses that reading fiction and arts primes the mind to recognize patterns, situations, and outcomes in life and politics.
  • "It's the reason that I am continually right... It's because I read the arts. It's because I read fiction." – Andrew Klavan [06:48]
• Knowles wonders aloud how the conservative aversion to art impacts their understanding of contemporary politics and admits to being called effeminate for enjoying poetry.

4. The Fight for (and through) Culture

• [07:33] Klavan reflects on the decades-long struggle to shift cultural power away from the left, celebrating the diminishing relevance of leftist media but lamenting conservatives' failure to reclaim the arts.
  • Hollywood is "lying on its back with its feet is what tits up...and we're not doing anything." – Andrew Klavan [08:59]

5. High Art vs. Genre/Popular Art—An American Dilemma

• [11:44] Knowles asks whether conservatives should aim for high culture (opera, ballet) or popular arts (genre fiction, films), noting a yearning for higher culture amid declining attendance.
• [12:03] Klavan explains why America can't produce "totalizing" high art in the European mold: the country is too large and diverse.
  • "American expression is almost always… in genre: musical comedy, detective stories, westerns, science fiction... That's how we talk to each other." – Andrew Klavan [13:00, summarized]
• Klavan shares his own "crisis resolution": blending complex worldviews with fast-moving American thrillers, taking inspiration from Victorian literature and Americanizing it, culminating in After That, The Dark.

6. Celebrating American Cultural Synthesis

• [16:11] Klavan lauds the uniqueness of American culture’s cross-pollination (e.g., Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, Jewish composers writing for various audiences).
  • "It is a work of genius. When you hear the American songbook...you're hearing something new and beautiful and unique." – Andrew Klavan [16:35]
• He draws a parallel between America at its creative peak and Rome at its peak.

7. Snobbery, Video Games, and the Evolution of Art Forms

• [17:21] Citing W.B. Yeats’ humor about critics, Klavan argues that art has always been a blend of the filthy, the fun, and the sublime, criticizing both outdated and snobbish attitudes toward new art forms.
  • "Critics get in our way, get between us and the things we love." – Andrew Klavan [17:30]
• Klavan sees potential in video games as a new artistic frontier and warns against dismissing popular or new forms of artistic expression just because they are not "high culture."

8. Closing Banter & Mutual Book Promotion

• [18:45] Knowles jokes he might stop being such a philistine and finally read Klavan’s book.
  • "Drew, you might have convinced me to stop being such a philistine and to go read After That, The Dark." – Michael Knowles [18:45]
• Lighthearted exchange about royalties and sweaters ends the episode.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Andrew Klavan, on fiction’s role:
  "It's to enlarge your imagination so that you perceive the world in a bigger way…and that is actually...why I am continually right...It's because I read the arts. It's because I read fiction."
  [04:41, 06:48]

• Michael Knowles, on fleeting engagement with fiction:
  "Whenever I read good books…my soul feels bigger. Wow. I'm viewing the world in a new and interesting way. And then I say, well, I'm never doing that again."
  [05:30]

• Klavan's American artistic dilemma:
  "Somehow the American dream is expressed in dreamlike stories that are genre stories...America is not a slow moving, ruminating culture...An American is a very different kind of character."
  [13:00-14:50]

• Klavan on cultural celebration:
  "It is a work of genius. When you hear the American songbook written by all these Jews for blacks, for whites and, you know, and Irish guys singing...you're hearing something new and beautiful and unique."
  [16:35]

• Klavan on critics and new forms of art:
  "I really do think the critics get in our way, get between us and the things we love. One of the reasons I talk about video games is because I think they are a stunning visual art form at their best."
  [17:30]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:05] Klavan introduces the Tennyson-inspired title of his novel
• [04:41] Klavan’s critique of conservative indifference to fiction
• [05:30] Knowles describes his fleeting relationship with fiction
• [06:48] Why art makes people "right"—Klavan’s theory
• [07:33] Battling for control of cultural institutions and the failure to capture the arts
• [12:03] American art vs European art—distinctive strengths and problems
• [13:20] Klavan’s personal evolution blending high vision and popular genre
• [16:11] Celebrating the unique American cultural mix
• [17:21] Snobbery, critics, and embracing new art forms; video games
• [18:45] Lighthearted close, mutual book plug

Tone & Style

The tone is witty, playful, occasionally self-deprecating (especially from Knowles), and philosophically engaged. Both participants blend references to high literature, pop culture, and personal anecdotes, emphasizing the serious stakes of culture without being solemn or dry.

Summary

This episode of The Michael Knowles Show is a vibrant defense of art—especially in conservative circles—rooted in Klavan's literary work and an appreciation for both high culture and popular genre storytelling. They argue that American culture is best expressed through energetic, hybrid genres rather than European-style "totalizing" art, and both lament and lampoon conservative resistance to engaging the imagination. The conversation ultimately calls for conservatives to take artistic creation seriously, embrace the new and the popular (from novels to video games), and recognize the unique strengths of American cultural synthesis.