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The mindbodygreen Podcast
604: Why so many women are burnt out & what to do about it | Angela Foster
00:51:14
Angela Foster, award-winning nutritionist, health & performance coach, and speaker, joins us today to discuss how exercise is different for women, why syncing with your physiology matters more than ever, and how to use data, lifestyle, and intuition to become the most vibrant version of yourself.
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the MyBodyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wakab, founder and co CEO of MyBodyGreen and your host.
- [00:08]
B
Rei co op knows when you're up at 4:30am on a Saturday for a long run and you're actually excited. Not everyone gets it, but we do at rei.
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A
We're here for people who get outside gear up for your next run in store or@rei.com. High performance isn't just about hustle, it's about harmony. Today's guest, Angela Foster is here to show us how to achieve both. Angela's an award winning nutritionist, high performance coach and founder of BioSyncing, a transformative approach designed to help women optimize their health for longevity, leadership and life. In today's show she shares her journey from major depressive disorder to healing through gut health, movement, mindset and self compassion. We also explore how women's exercise needs varied approaches, why syncing with your physiology is essential, and how to blend data, intuition and lifestyle to feel your most vibrant. If you're navigating burnout, a tough season, or just want to feel more energized and grounded, this episode is packed with science backed insights and hard won wisdom. Let's dive in. So let's start with your personal story. How did you go from corporate attorney to high performance coach?
- [01:35]
B
It's a great question. And there was a big gap kind of, I guess in between. Right. I had to go on a real journey in between that. When I was a corporate lawyer in London, it was crazy hours. Like anyone who's a lawyer listening to this probably really relates because we just completely disrespected, I guess all the things that I talk about now like quality sleep and six circadian rhythm and things like that. We were just working through the night, all weekends of work, you know, to pull off the deals with investment bankers. They were global deals. And I then I kind of had, I guess my first foray into health was while I was practicing as a lawyer and I realized I had pcos and endometriosis. So that was kind of giving me some fertility challenges. But I went on to manage, I had some surgery and then I went on to have my kids and when I was eight months pregnant with my first child, that's when I made partner at the firm and and I'd moved out to kind of a larger firm outside of London trying to combine the two, but it was pretty full on. And then I was three months pregnant when I was due to go back from maternity leave a year later. So everything was kind of happening very quickly, but I think what hadn't. What I was unprepared for was that I would struggle with postpartum depression. And for. For a bit of time, I was really in denial about it. And then it got progressively worse with each child. Um, after my third child, that's when things got really bad. Um, and that's when I was diagnosed then two years later with major depressive disorder. I was on bipolar medication, both antidepressant and antipsychotic medication to try and stabilize my mood. Um, and ultimately, Jason, you know, I'd created this. I guess you could call it a prison of my own making in my own mind. And I was really, really struggling. I'd given up my career at this point. I was taking what I saw as a career break, and I wanted to focus on my kids, but I had really kind of low feelings and things like that. And I thought a lot about ending my life. I was in a really bad place. And that's when I got pneumonia. And I was taken into hospital pretty urgently. And they said to me, you know, your white blood cell count is so low, you're neutropenic. I was just completely burnt out. And it was when I was in hospital and the kids had come to see me that I remember looking at photos of them as they left. And I just felt this overwhelming sense of love and responsibility to my kids, that I should be there for them and see them grow up. And that was when I made decision that I was going to get well. And it's so interesting because we read so much and we look at, like, the work of Dr. Joe Dispenza around the mind body connection. And the moment I made that decision, within 48 hours, my blood work started to change and my white blood cell count started to rise, which was really important because I had viral and bacterial pneumonia across both lungs. So ultimately, they didn't have to intubate me. I didn't end up going into intensive care, which is what they thought would happen. And I started that healing journey. And for me, it began as a personal journey, which has now translated into helping women, you know, stay healthy and have that combine health with high performance, ultimately.
- [04:36]
A
Thank you for sharing so much. To unpack there three young children in a short period of time, postpartum depression, some serious health issues. Very serious. Like on the verge of being on the ICU and in the ICU, and then within 48 hours, you turned it around. How long was this time period when you were really suffering from the birth of first child to that moment of being on the cusp of the icu.
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B
So that was six years. So I had. My youngest at that point was two years old, and there were four. There's four and a half years between the three of them.
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A
Wow.
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B
That's.
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A
Let alone not having. For anyone with children or young children, that is a serious undertaking, let alone your career as a corporate attorney. And so what do you think? Walk us through. You made that decision. Okay, I need to be here for my children. I'm done with this. So to speak. Walk us through that next 48 hours when you started to see an improvement in your blood work.
- [05:42]
B
So at that point, you know, when I was in hospital, I think when I remember when I was first told if I go back just a couple of days when I was actually admitted, they'd done. They'd called me in for a chest X ray because things look really messy. They. Sorry. They looked at a chest X ray and they called me in because things look really messy. And then they decided to do a CT scan to rule out lung cancer because my lymph glands were so big. And it was on the back of that that I was going to be admitted into hospital. And I was sort of slightly. Not frivolous, but I said, you know, I'm going to go and get the kids from school and I'll come back and then I'll admit myself. And they were like, well, I don't think you realize how serious this is. We can't let you leave the hospital. And I think that's the thing with mums, right, Is we just carry on for so long. And that's what I was doing. But then when I was in hospital, the first thing when I made that decision was realizing I need to give in and give myself some rest. And that's what I was doing. I was hooked up to oxygen drips and things like that, but I was really just resting and thinking about how am I going to get well. And it was after I left hospital that I decided I need to start valuing the decisions that I make for me as much as I am for my children and nourishing myself in the right way and prioritizing sleep and also continuing with all of the therapy that I've been having to try at that point to overcome these. Just a very unstable mood because I would oscillate between feelings of, like, depression, and then I would have these highs. And I think those were almost the cruelest things, because every time that I would be on a Kind of high. I'd be like, super mum. And I would think that I was healed. But what my husband and I started to realize is that those highs were what preceded the biggest crashes. And so I was working then pretty hard to try and stabilize that alongside all the other lifestyle strategies that you and I both talk about.
- [07:28]
A
So you mentioned lifestyle strategies. Describe your lifestyle during this really tough period for you and compare it to the lifestyle you embraced in your transition into really taking care of yourself. What does that look like in terms of nutrition, exercise, emotional health, sleep, all the things?
- [07:51]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. So when I was at my lowest point, I was focusing on, obviously taking care of my children, but really struggling initially with sleep until I was so medicated that that would send me to sleep. I would pretty much. I look back on it and I'm not. I'm not proud of where I was. I would warm up day with caffeine, and then I would wind down with alcohol. So it was kind of antidepressants and coffee in the morning and then a few glasses of wine and antipsychotic medication in the evening just to be able to get to sleep. And that would. I would sleep, but I wouldn't sleep well. So then when I started to transition, initially I knew that I couldn't just come off all this medication. So it was like, how can I learn, Aside from all the cognitive behavioral therapy and things, how can I learn to nourish myself, start feeding myself better, looking after my gut health, more phytonutrients for me, more movement that, you know, wasn't too extreme, but was relatively gentle initially. And I picked up Breaking the Habit of being yourself by Dr. Joe Dispenza. And that's when I was like, that's what I've got to do. I've got to break the habit of being me and create this new me. Because I think I was really lost. I wasn't practicing as a lawyer. I'd lost my identity, really. And I was having to forge this new personal identity.
- [09:12]
A
You like, you know, hearing, starting your day with coffee, closing it with wine, and there's some prescription medication. Unfortunately, I don't think that's unique in today's world. I think many women and men are starting and ending their days in the same way. And it's really, really unfortunate because you should kind of just become numb. And you also mentioned, I'm assuming there's a lot of unprocessed or heavily, heavily processed food involved. And unfortunately, I think that's the majority of the population. So you mentioned Dispenza, and I think something we underestimate, or maybe it's just me, something I need to spend more time on, is we often don't give enough credit to mindset and the magic there, along with the science. Can you talk more about that and how you flipped this switch and how Joe Dispenza, who we've had on this show, really had a significant impact in your journey?
- [10:12]
B
Yeah, of course. So I, like, when I was looking at it, I was thinking about, is this the person that I really want to be? I'd been on a kind of hamster wheel, if you like, prior to that. So I'd done all the things. It was sort of the gravy train of, you know, you go to uni, do the law degree, and then the next stage is law school. And then after that is training. And I just followed all these steps, and now I had to kind of create new steps for me. And at that point, my. My purpose, if you like, was how can I be mind, body, spiritually healthy as health, like, healthier than I've ever been before so that I could look after my health span going forward. So I was focusing, and that gave me that sense of purpose to take it forward. And then it was after that that I started to. To retrain. But along the way, what I've had to do is because effectively I'm. You're reinventing yourself, right, which lots of people do. And we see, you know, singers and actresses and things like that do this and actors. That's what I was having to do. So I was having to condition my body to a new mind, which is what he talks about. Right. And so I was having to put in place that process. And part of that, honestly, Jason was actually learning for me to be compassionate towards myself. I had a lot of self criticism that I was having to deal with. And I think a lot of this, we, you know, he talks about how most of it, 95% of what we do is controlled by our subconscious mind. There were lots of things that I had to kind of address to understand more about me and what I valued and who I wanted to be and how I wanted to show up.
- [11:45]
A
So give me an example of that. What did that look like on a daily basis?
- [11:50]
B
So a lot of it was being, I guess, becoming really, really intentional about how I was behaving. And one of the best ways that I found to do that is to use mindfulness. So I was practicing things like meditation, but that's when that's Creating a kind of unique experience, isn't it? At a certain point in time, what I needed to do was to bring myself. I get it out of my head into the present moment. And I think that's, again, something that so many people struggle with. Like if you. If you challenge yourself to get out of bed in the morning and even walk to the bathroom without your mind disappearing off in a completely different direction, I think we're doing really well if we can keep kind of embodied. So I was focusing a lot on if I went out for a walk, what could I hear? Could I hear the birds? What were the sounds? What could I smell bringing myself back in? Because so often we're kind of worrying about the future, and depression and anxiety are very linked. They're kind of flip sides. It was explained to me of the same coin. So we can either be thinking about the future or, like, living in the past. And so a lot of the process was really bringing myself into the present and creating my future through present moment. Intention.
- [13:00]
A
Beautiful. You know, I think we all suffer from that.
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B
You know, we do. I still suffer with it now. Right.
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A
And this idea of just being more intentional with everything you're doing and trying to be in the moment, it's a simple concept. It's a very difficult concept. And so in this process, so you're. You're becoming more mindful. What are other. What are some other lifestyle modifications that you made that had a significant impact for you during this time period?
- [13:35]
B
So another big one for me, and that is still a huge anchor for me now and that I always have to play with to get the balance right, is exercise, morning exercise. That's a huge one. Because if I can, I find that, you know, sometimes we can just get stuck in a real funk and we try and solve our problems by thinking our way out of our problems. Whereas actually, our physiology is often a faster way to move our psychology. So that could be, for someone as simple as putting on some really upbeat music. Right. We can change that very, very quickly. We can change it with things like breathwork. For me, exercise has been a real anchor. And I know that if I can get into a rhythm with my exercise in the morning, that really sets me up for the day. So that's been a big thing, and it continues to be so.
- [14:21]
A
You mentioned physiology. So one of the things I think that's special about you is one, you're relatable. You've got an unbelievable personal story that many people can relate to. You incorporate, I would say, spiritual or mindfulness into Everything you do. But then you also leverage data around longevity and biohacking, if you will, but also make it applicable for women, which many biohackers and longevity experts do not do. And so with that said, you talked about exercise. What have you learned about exercise and optimizing exercise to achieve maximum health? Spanish for women and how it's different for men.
- [15:04]
B
So what I would say is it is different for women. And I think, you know, there's more and more research coming out when we look at things like the menstrual cycle, for example, and how we see a little bit of a drop in resiliency in that late luteal phase. So after ovulation, and we can read about these things or how things shift in perimenopause, and we can talk about that and how we become more anabolic resistant, if you like. But what I've noticed as well is we just have to look at the individual, because a lot of the people, a lot of the women that I work with, they're highly stressed because they're having to juggle so much. And I think never before has there been a time in history when women have needed more support. I think that we've had huge advances in terms of our careers and all the things that we can do. But what's happening is we're still carrying a lot of the emotional load, which is invisible to a lot of people with children and things like that. But also we're responsible often for the kind of primary parent parenting role. But what we're seeing now is because the generation ahead of us are living longer, but they're not necessarily living healthier. We're also often responsible in some way for aging parents. And so women in their kind of late 30s to early 50s are in this sort of sandwich generation. And there's so much stress. So when we look at exercise, it's a good form of stress. But what we don't want to do is like overstimulate the nervous system. We want to get the dose right so that that woman is feeling like more vibrant, full of energy and vitality, as opposed to depleted. So I think that's where the data can help with that.
- [16:35]
A
Just to double click on that. Without question, I think women in this age group are, you know, managing up and down, so to speak. They're caring for parents, so that relationship is flipped, and they're caring for children, and then many of them are also wives, and they're working and they're getting hit from all sides. And I agree, that's A. That's a problem. I think what you're also touching on is kind of what you're known for is biosyncing. So can we spend a little bit time. What is biosyncing and how does it differ from biohacking? Walk us through that practice.
- [17:10]
B
So with biohacking, I felt when I was looking at it, and I did a lot of, I guess what you could call biohacking when I was trying to get well. And I think that a lot of it is based on men. And there's a lot of male influences, if you like that talk about biohacking. And I think, you know, the concept of hacking into our biology, I think our biology is probably a bit more intelligent than that with sinking. What I was looking at and what I still look at is how can we bring our bodies into balance? And so that process of what I call biosyncing is syncing with our female physiology, but also syncing our mindset with our future self, which is what I did to effectively overcome that depression and create what I have. And then syncing with our goals and values so we can be really intentional about what we're doing. Because when we bring those three things into alignment, that's when I see the magic happens. That's when we can begin to effectively manifest what we want in our lives and to have that health and vitality alongside achieving our goals.
- [18:08]
A
So it feels like it starts with visualization and doing some work there to really understand what your priorities and goals are for the future.
- [18:15]
B
Yeah, it does. And I think it also, like, really starts with understanding what you value. Because for me, I realized, you know, when I. When I decided to, that I wasn't going to be able to combine the current corporate career, corporate legal career that I had with children. I knew that I valued my children, but by taking away that career, if you like, I lost my identity. I wasn't sure who I was. I struggled with depression. And so that my values were not fully in sync and in alignment. Whereas what I. What I achieve now is a business that works alongside my children so that I can have both of those things. And I think that's the real challenge for William, for women. Sorry. What we see is so many women leaving in that middle category as they're going up the promotion ladder because they wonder, how can they combine these? And that's where I work with corporations to try and help women. How can we overcome that and provide more support? And I look ahead, you know, I have a daughter, she's 13. And I look And I think, am I going to educate her, you know, as much as I educated myself and take it all the way through, only to find that then she struggles to combine these things. I think that's where we need to support women more.
- [19:23]
A
So could you give us a couple examples of questions that one may want to ask themselves to begin this process? Say, like three questions for women listening. What should I ask myself if I want to start doing some of this work?
- [19:37]
B
Yeah, for sure. So I think the first question is actually to kind of drop back and not think about what maybe you've been conditioned to do or what you're in at the moment and just ask yourself the question of what, what do I really want? Like, and just allow yourself to dream. So often we don't allow that so that you can see, start to see. And journaling is a good way of doing this. How you might want your life to look like. How much time do you want with your children? Because that again, varies from one woman to the next. Right. Some women want to be full time parents, other women want to be at work. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's just about getting that balance right for you personally and then looking at what do you value? And what we do with our clients is we'll give them like 25 plus values and say, can you circle the ones that are important for you? And this is a really difficult exercise because what you end up wanting to do is go, yeah, circle that and so many of them. And then it's like, well, how can I distill this down to the core ones that are important to me? Because then what you can start to do is run everything through a filter. Because I think the other thing we struggle with as women is we just say yes so much. It's so we want to, you know, we want to say yes to people all the time. Sometimes. What we have to understand, I think, is that every single time there's a yes yes, there's an automatic no. If I decide to do something now, then I'm choosing not to do something else. And I think that when you understand your values really clearly and you realize that concept, then you can make decisions that are much more in alignment for you.
- [21:06]
A
And I agree. And I think a lot of myself included, I think learning how to say no is a skill. It is. And there's the art of the very polite no, which I encourage everyone to work on. And so in terms of everything you try, so you're on your journey, you're trying biohacking if you will talk about something, give me an example of something that you try that you were like, this absolutely does not work for me or probably women. You're like, I'm, I'm crossing this off the list.
- [21:36]
B
I would say that trying to put, it's probably not one thing, but it's trying to put too many things in at once. I guess one of the things that actually a really good example would be when I tried to put in a morning routine. That was one of the first things that I did. And I was like, this is it. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to be part of that 5am Club and I'm going to wake up and I'm going to journal and I'm going to meditate and I'm going to move. And all these lists of things. I was like, this is crazy. Like, you know, one of my kids would randomly wake up while I was trying to do one of the things and then I would be interrupted and I realized I had to go with the flow so much more. And so now it's like, you know, I have these list of practices, but maybe I'm going to do one or two of them in my morning and I can go intuitively with what feels right for me on that morning. So exercise is a daily thing, but then that doesn't have to be intense exercise every day. It could be that I go for a walk, it might be that I come back and I do a little bit of breath work or meditation, or I might just feel really motivated to go straight into my work. Do you see what I mean? I think that having that intuition. So what definitely didn't work for me was trying to have a whole list of things that I had to tick off because it was just never going to work with three kids.
- [22:46]
A
So you mentioned using your intuition, but you're also a fan of using data. And something you've talked about is you've improved your HRV and you also want to optimize your VO2 max. So walk us through what you ultimately did and how you approach that. Because if I think of improving HRV and optimizing VO2 max, I think of highly regimented protocols, if you will, and that are pretty intense. And so talk about data and intuition and how you approach the HRV and VO2 max.
- [23:21]
B
I tell you what's super interesting about HRV is that when we work with clients in biosyncing, we use a medical grade device that we take assessments with and we put that on their chest with electrodes all the time. And what's really interesting is that then you're not just seeing the whoop or a data overnight. What you get to see is the whole picture of what's going on during the course of their day and what things are. They're not necessarily stressing them out because they're just sympathetically driven and maybe they're concentrating, but how much they might be redlining it all day then starts to mirror that red lining at night. So we can see, actually these types of things that you're doing are now leading to not getting into recovery at night. And so I always say you can only coach up to your level of recovery, so we need to get that piece right. But I think that a missing piece for many people is, yes, exercise is a stress, and some people are absolutely over exercising and it can become addictive. But then what about the mental stress? We were talking earlier about the emotional and invisible load. If we're not addressing that, that also has a really big impact on heart rate variability. So understanding how to release stress and re engage that parasympathetic nervous system is a really critical part of that. If you want to improve HRV alongside things like, you know, really good quality hydration, if you're looking at overnight metrics, you don't want to eat too close to bed. But we also need to balance out those workouts because if there's too much hit, which I think is very common in women who are in their kind of 40s, if you like, and they feel like they're not getting results, so then it's like, I must do more. Now they're doing two classes a day in the gym, do you know what I mean? Or like three F45s a week. And that might be too much, given everything else that's going on in your life. So it's like, how can we look at the load that you have and then design it? And sometimes less is more.
- [25:08]
A
And so would that be the case for VO2 Max as well, in terms of optimizing for that?
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B
Yeah, I think with VO2 Max, like the Norwegian 4x4, which is quite intense when you do it, but it's.
- [25:19]
A
Oh, yeah, I can't do it.
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B
You can't do it. It's really intense, isn't it?
- [25:23]
A
And I have a. I've been working out again and I'm an ex athlete, so, like, I'm well trained. My VO2 max is 52 and I'm 50 years old and I can't do or at least maybe I don't want to do the four by four where you're doing four minutes, zone two, four minutes zone five, four minutes zone two and so on. Like, that's. I can't do it. It's hard.
- [25:47]
B
It is hard.
- [25:48]
A
So sorry I interrupted, but please talk about. I just wanted to explain to people how difficult it is and even I can't do it. So please, please go on, finish.
- [25:55]
B
It is hard, right? And I think that depending on your mindset, depending on your load at the time. Right. You've got young children as well. It just depends. And I think we don't want to unduly push ourselves sometimes for like more of a maintenance phase. People could do that twice a month and doing things that are shorter. I saw really good improvements with VO2 max. Doing shorter sprints at the end of my workout.
- [26:19]
A
So how short? Walk us? How short? I think you had us on shorter sprints and to work out because that seems very reasonable. And if I'm listening, okay, I can do this. So what exactly did you do?
- [26:29]
B
Yeah, so I would do like at the end of an upper body workout because you don't want to do it on leg day. So then it's just going to be too much and it will really smash. Your recovery is at the end of an upper body workout, is go and do like six sprints on the treadmill where you're sprinting really fast at a kind of top end for 20 to 30 seconds and then you're recovering for like four to eight times as long. So it's very brief form of stress. It also helps with insulin sensitivity, it can help reduce abdominal fat, which a lot of women struggle with at that age as their hormones and things are changing. And I saw good improvements with that in combination with that kind of zone one to walking. And I think that we underestimate the value of that. And I think there's a lot of talk about women should be doing more high intensity and not worrying about zone one too. But what about the fact that that is giving you your mindful activity? Do you know what I mean? If you go out for a walk, walk in nature, it's deeply relaxing. You're really connected and that helps with that parasympathetic engagement. It also supports your endocrine health or your hormone health. It supports your immune system. And what I see is when people start doing that exercise and they're walking more, we see a reduction in resting heart rate as well. So I don't think it has to all be really intense. You know, and, and we can kind of slot it in and do different phases. If you look at your year and start designing a little bit more like that, you don't have to be so under pressure to hit all these things in a short period of time.
- [27:56]
A
And so I think that's an interesting point too, how important walking is. Because if we take a step back and being intentional and mindful, such a core piece of what you practice and preach, that's really hard to do. If you're calling all out in your four by four Norwegian protocol, your sprints, you kind of lose yourself in the moment, which is also spiritual in some sense and beautiful and, and, but it's not exactly intense. You're just like lost. You're really pushing yourself. What else, what, what is essential for, let's say, women in their 40s? If I'm listening, I'm a woman in my 40s. Like what, what are, what are, what is essential in your view? If you had to generalize to your.
- [28:40]
B
Well being, practice what is essential, I would say number one would be sleep. Like really, really focusing on sleep and not skimping on it, because I think it's so easy to do and so many women struggle with disrupted sleep, particularly when they're hormones. I think as women, we struggle. Even if you are not a lawyer, like I was, you struggle with disrupted sleep because you get woken up by babies and toddlers. You know, I think everyone says, like, you won't feel good until your youngest child is five years old. Well, that's a long time, isn't it? If you're having like three or four or maybe more, right? There's years and years of sleep deprivation and then you have the disruption in perimenopause. You have all the worry with teenagers when they start going out, all these things going on. So I think if you can prioritize your sleep and look at, you know, have I got healthy habits and behaviors, am I going getting access to early morning light in the morning? If you don't have time to do this, open the windows, you can annoy your kids like I annoy mine and just open the sunroof or the windows in the car to allow that full spectrum of light to come in. Because we know that if we get that full spectrum of light within the first kind of hour or two of waking, it really anchors our circadian rhythm. So we're going to sleep better tonight. And it also helps with our mood as well. And it helps with that melatonin release later, which is important. It's an antioxidant hormone. It's going to help us sleep better. You know, having some kind of wind down routine before bed so that you can relax, I think is really, really important. Having any time, Jason, to relax, I think as women is important. If we can just kind of squeeze it in wherever we can. I think that we often forget to prioritize ourselves. But women make amazing communities. That's why I love working with women and they're so supportive of each other. So if you can be part of something where other women are making changes like you, because you're kind of like, you know, there's so much research about how you're the average of the people you spend the most time with. So being around people who also want to adopt this healthy lifestyle is really helpful. And having those friendships is very pro longevity. And then when we look at food, I think nourishing ourselves in the right way is really key. And I think as women, you know, there's three kind of main things that speak to me when we look at the research and we look at the effect for female hormones is one. And longevity is we need to have sufficient protein. And we know that as we move through our 40s and beyond, we are less good at kind of holding onto our muscle mass, especially as estrogen starts to drop. So having enough protein is important. And that helps with our neurotransmitters. So it helps with mood stability as well. And then having a lot of like colorful foods that are really rich in antioxidants and polyphenols that can help with our healthy gut bacteria and fiber and help detoxify any kind of excess estrogen and things really important as well. And then healthy fats. So our kind of omega 3s and omega 6s, those are kind of some of the main things that I would say are really important for women.
- [31:34]
A
Well, I think you hit the main points where there's consensus for sure. Protein, variety of fruits and vegetables and healthy and fiber, healthy fats. You nailed it. A couple other concepts you speak about which I think are very interesting. Self discrepancy theory. Yeah, tell us more.
- [31:52]
B
Yeah, so self discrepancy theory between this sort of distinction between our actual self, what we might call our ought self, and then our future self. And if there is a gap between those between our actual self as it is now and our ought self, which is how we should be, quote, unquote, as Tony Robbins says, stop shitting all over yourself, that should solve. And then we have our future self again. If there's A discrepancy between us now. And I think when I look, look back, how much of that was driving the depression in me, right? Not, not working, feeling like my should self should be having that career as a lawyer. You know, it was very much encouraged when I was growing up to get a professional qualification and follow that path. And then looking at your future self and then thinking, why am I not there yet? Why isn't happening fast enough? Can cause these gaps, if you like. And so I think that if we really, really want to live life intentionally, we want to live into our future self by design. Not the old self, but the one that we want. Which goes back to our original point of deciding what do we really want out of life and how can we set boundaries so that we can start to move steps, small steps compound daily, as you know, towards that future self. But how do we get to our future self? Through present moment, intention, intentional daily activity, and kindness along the way, which is, as I said earlier, is a big one. I had to learn. And one of the things that I do, I have this thing with my clients. Anyone here can adopt this if, if they, if this speaks to them and then if not, just dismiss it. But I call it cap off your day. So how can I cap off my day? We know that we, we, we basically remember peaks and ends, so we might be having an amazing morning, but then something happens when in the afternoon that really derails us. And now if we close the day out on that, we're going to remember it. So how can we design it so we have a peak end experience at the end of every day. And so this cap off the day is number one. Let's celebrate. Celebrate the tiny wins, you know, just small steps that you've taken. And then anything big that was great, that happened on the day as well. If you learned from something, I think failure is success is basically a series of failures, right. That we learn from. So what did I learn today? We can celebrate that as well. So that's the first step to celebrate. And the next one is appreciate. Because there's so much research around gratitude and how it's the big amplifier. It's so good for our health and our mindset. And then the P is prioritize like what are my one to three priorities for tomorrow? And then you already know how you're going to be intentional about tomorrow, the night before, and you're putting anything residual from the day to bed so that you can sleep so much better. And that's something that's worked really well, for me, it's worked well with my clients and we do it with my kids quite often around the table at home as well. It's just a really nice experience, you know, as a family.
- [34:50]
A
You mentioned kids. And so much of what you talk about in your work is mindset. How does that work with your children? For parents out there, how do you start to instill some of these values early on?
- [35:04]
B
It's such a good question because who is it I heard the other day saying that our children will not listen to us, but they will have absolutely like 100% success in becoming us. I think it might have been Peter Crone and you're like, that's so true. And I look at my kids now and they do model what I do. You know, my, I look at my 15 year old and he's just like literally on his way to the gym now in between exam revision. And I think they do. If you, if you're living a healthy lifestyle, they'll get there, but I think without too much pressure, like, I can't, I can't coach my children all the time. That's not my job. Do you know what I mean? My job is to be there for them as a parent. But I will talk about things and say to them, you know, this is something that might help you. It's helped me, it's helped my clients and frame it in that way. I find that then they're more open to potentially using it if it isn't sort of thrust on them.
- [35:59]
A
Well said. Let's also talk about Cognitive Gears.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah. So this is a really interesting concept, right, that I first heard about from James Hewitt. Cognitive Gears and Microsoft have done some research which really backs this up. So we think. We were just talking a moment ago about Zone 2 and Zone 5. Right. So polarizing your training so you've got that recovery and then you've got your top end. We don't often think about this in relation to cognitive load, but we could and we should. So if we think about high gear, medium gear and low gear for the brain, effectively, like that moderate zone and zone two and zone five for the brain, then when we want to do deep, focused work, we're going to go into Zone 5, but it's quite depleting on our neurotransmitters. If we look at Flow state, for example, Stephen Kotler, who's been on my podcast, done a lot of investigation research into this. McKinsey's research shows we're five times more productive when we're in flow so in theory, if we could be in flow all day Monday, we wouldn't have to go into work for the rest of the week. But it just doesn't work that way. So how can we recover and get back into flow again and have more focus? Then we're looking at downregulating our nervous system and the activities that we're doing in terms of that brain energy. So that would be moving into something that has a low cognitive gear. That would be something that's a mindful activity, something where you've either automated the task or pretty much to your subconscious, like driving or doing laundry or things like that, or you're doing deliberately something mindful.
- [37:30]
A
Right.
- [37:30]
B
You're going to go and rest or do something like an nsdr, which Huberman talks a lot about. Then we can rest the brain so we can come back.
- [37:38]
A
What's nsd? Sorry? What's NSDR for people.
- [37:41]
B
NSDR is Non Sleep, Deep Rest. There are really good scripts on YouTube. I think Huberman has one herself. I've used it. Going to Sleep. It's really good. Yeah, really good. And so you can try that. But what we're mostly spending is all of our time in middle gear. So we're like multitasking. Then we're checking social media, then we're checking email. And it's not, not really that productive in terms of moving us closer to achieving our goals. But it's very, very depleting on the brain, and it can make you feel really frazzled by the time you get to the end of the day.
- [38:12]
A
You know, it's really interesting. I've never heard anyone compare it to zone two, the. The zones for heart rate training. Because I think any expert will say most people find themselves stuck in zone three or four, but they're never doing zone two, which is really powerful. And build builds a base. And then zone five, which takes you to the next level. You're stuck in, like, the messy middle, so to speak. And I think what you said makes so much sense in terms of our capacity mentally. We're multitasking. We're kind of like. We're never uber productive in flow and then we never. And then also finding the balance of, like, monotonous, beautiful, meditative tasks, whether it's driving or doing the dishes, we're kind of in the middle, kind of running around an errand. Multitasking. You know, I got multiple windows open on my computer. Someone's slacking me. I got an email, I got a text. I'm on. You're productive. You're getting stuff done, but not as productive as you could be and probably driving yourself a little nuts.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah. And also, you know, you know what I think as well is when people complain about cravings and they say, I don't know what it is, but I just like, I say to myself, I'm not going to drink that wine. And then, or I'm not going to have those calves in the evening. But then it gets to like five, six o' clock and I lose all my willpower, which we know is depleted across the day. But what about your brain? Like, what have you been doing all day? Maybe it's just looking for you to go into zone one and two. And carbs and alcohol are like a really good switch for it to just go, I'm here, relax. Like, you're not going to get. You know, it was only when I gave up alcohol that I realized I had this problem of being a workaholic because alcohol was a natural. Like a glass of wine with my husband was a great way for us to catch up and kind of downregulate and stop. And then when I decided I'm going to run this experiment and not drink anymore, I realized that I was like moving back to work in the evening. So I had to address that. And I think that's common for so many people. It's like, well, why do I crave these things? Maybe because you didn't look at these zones during the day. Right.
- [40:13]
A
So interesting. So how else do you use data? You mentioned hrv. What, what else do you look at personally and what you have your clients look at.
- [40:25]
B
So personally and with clients, I look at like blood testing. So looking at labs annually I think is a really good way. At least annually, sometimes six monthly, just to see. I think, you know, even things like vitamin D deficiency, which is, is really important. Right. For so many functions within the body, making sure that you're on track, like looking at your lipid panels and triglycerides. Things like this is really important. I look at. When I'm looking at their wearable data, I kind of dive into behind the metrics. I'm more interested in like what's going on. You know, if I see a repeated pattern all the time that they're not. Their resting heart rate isn't. I'm not so much interested always in the averages, but what's happening across the night. So like is their resting heart rate not dropping until 4 or 5 o' clock in the morning? Then we need to look at what's going on in that evening. Routine. Are they really like downregulating their nervous system? You know, is their HRV really low in the early part of the night? And then there isn't really enough recovery before morning. So that's affecting their energy. So I'll look at that, looking at their training and are they able? When we look at, for example, we know we need to build muscle mass, right? We're, we're fighting aging. Well, are you progressively overloading? Because if you're going to the gym and you've plateaued and you're just doing the same thing every time you go, it's the same weights or the same speed on the treadmill, we're not making any progression. Why is that? Do we need to introduce more recovery? Do we need to have a deload week? So I look at all things like that with them. I've also been recently looking at, and I've done a podcast with them recently, a testing company called Glycan Age, which is looking at long term markers of inflammation. Very interesting, the research and things that they've done, which is looking at biological aging and kind of can see inflammatory markers sort of way off into the future.
- [42:13]
A
So is that a blood test?
- [42:15]
B
This is. Yeah. By a blood spot test, actually, they send it to your house. It's very easy to do. And they've got some very interesting research around how you can reverse your Glycan age through hormone replacement therapy. So. So women tend to age much more rapidly as that drop in estrogen. And then by having estrogen, progesterone, sometimes testosterone, we see a reduction in that biological age.
- [42:38]
A
On that note, what's your take on hrt?
- [42:40]
B
My take on hrt? Well, I. So I think that everyone has to speak to their medical doctor. Right. A lot of things, a lot of the research, early research has been debunked, but I think there's some people that, you know, it may not still be suitable for. Aside from that, I'm a big fan of it. I think that it really, really genuinely helps a lot of women and the research that's coming out. And we look at Dr. Lisa Moscone's research and other researchers, you know, around how it is helping protect us against, you know, dementia and heart disease and the things that women are more at risk for. But then I do think all the lifestyle stuff that we talk about, when I talk about biosinking is so important. Right. Because it's not. HRT isn't going to lift the weights for you. It's not going to like get your macros Right. For you, I think it's a really helpful adjunct.
- [43:25]
A
You know, you gotta bake the cake before you put on the frosting. The cake is the lifestyle. You gotta dial in the lifestyle so that you really establish like, okay, this is my baseline. And then from there, absolutely agree, meet with a medical practitioner who you trust, who's, who's well versed in hrt. Because I think my take is many women are suffering, it's been brutal and we did a disservice and essentially scaring the crap out of women for decades that this process was going to cause cancer. We were completely wrong about that. And now we've swung the other way in such a big way where everyone needs to go get hrt. And with that said, I think HRT can help a lot of people, but you have to really work with a great practitioner to find out, well, are we just throwing the kitchen, kitchen sink here? Like, what do I really need is a little, maybe we start a little bit of progesterone. Maybe we just start with testosterone. We gotta look at progesterone, testosterone, estrogen, and really look at the person. And I, I, I, that's my one concern. I think it helped a lot of women, but I think maybe we've swung a little too, too far and got all in on it. And you gotta really pay attention to the dosage and really work with a skilled practitioner. It's my one caveat.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, understanding how that woman's methylation pathways work is really important. How she detoxifies estrogen, what her gut health's like, all of that is really relevant. So I'm glad that we're seeing, you know, I think that the fact that it's being spoken about so much more and women are beginning to get more support is a massive plus. And you know, they were being prescribed antidepressants instead before. So May, like this increased awareness is amazing. But like, as you say, unfortunately, sometimes the pendulum just swings a little bit too far and we just need to center it a little bit.
- [45:19]
A
It's the same thing with men and testosterone. Although I don't think men suffer. They don't for sure. Like women do when their testosterone starts to drop. They just become, you know, weak and depressed and a little bit tough to be with.
- [45:34]
B
Men, really, they're test out.
- [45:37]
A
Yeah, exactly. What are you excited about? There's a lot happening in, in our space in 2025. What are you watching? What are you excited about?
- [45:46]
B
Do you know? I'm so Excited at the moment around just, I think women being prioritized a bit more. The fact that there is like going to be a bit more research on women, that we are having more open conversations about it. That I think for me, like corporations that I work with just seem so much more open to like how can we support our female leaders and how can that then have a trickle down effect within the organization? That for me is a huge, huge, like win. I love it. And I think that also, you know, just some of the supplements and things, right. That are being designed now more for like formulations with women in mind. I know, for example, like you're creating and taurine supplement. I love. I just think that's amazing, you know, just to add that taurine into something so simple that can support things like estrogen detoxification, can support bone health and muscle health. So I'm excited about how things are progressing. I'm also really excited about this, I guess more embracing of spirituality in whatever form that is right for you and just feeling more connected to ourselves and to each other. And I guess what we would call source energy. That really excites me as well because I just think that we are very disconnected in many ways. Right. We're hyper connected through socials, but then disconnected from each other. And I think that's bringing about more experiences in person. Experiences where people can connect together and form tribes, essentially.
- [47:13]
A
Amen. We covered a lot today. Is there something we didn't cover that you want to touch on before we go or tell our audience where they can find you and where you're up to?
- [47:23]
B
Thank you. No, I think, I think we've covered most of it. I guess one thing that I've been. I started in January that your audience may be interested in is I was looking at the research around how people create change. And there's a lot of like criticism, I guess with New Year's resolutions that says, oh, New Year's resolutions don't work, people don't follow through. But it's interesting when you look at the research that actually people tend to follow through more than at any time of year, more than any other time of year year. And Dr. Amy Milkman did research on this and she calls it the Fresh Start effect. And so we started something in the first week of January, which is a weekly newsletter called Fresh Start. And what we do is every Monday we send you a new tiny habit or behavior. And these are really tiny things that you can do. And it gives you something to practice for the following week. So that across the year. You're building up these tiny, healthy habits, and you're starting it on a Monday as a fresh start, which means you're more likely to be. Be successful with it. And so if your audience want to sign up to that, it's completely free. That's at forward slash, fresh start. I love writing it every week. It's fun, and people seem to enjoy it.
- [48:30]
A
Amazing. Angela, thank you so much.
- [48:32]
B
Thank you, Jason.