The mindbodygreen Podcast, Episode 608
Title: The Ultimate Guide to Using Nature for Brain Health & Longevity
Guest: Marc Berman, Ph.D.
Host: Jason Wachob
Date: July 27, 2025
Overview
In this insightful episode, Jason Wachob sits down with Dr. Marc Berman, pioneering environmental neuroscientist and author of Nature in the Mind, to reveal the profound effects of nature on cognitive function, mental health, and overall well-being. They explore landmark studies, practical tips, urban design, and the often-underestimated necessity of green and blue spaces for brain health and human flourishing.
Key Discussion Points
1. What Is Environmental Neuroscience?
(00:00–04:19)
- Dr. Berman’s Background: Marc’s journey began with an interest in how environments shape human behavior, inspired by generational trauma and psychology experiments like Milgram’s obedience study.
- Attention Restoration Theory: Influenced by Prof. Steve Kaplan, Berman explains the hypothesis that exposure to natural environments replenishes depleted attention resources, moving neuroscience beyond individual-focused interventions to environmental solutions.
- Quote:
"The environment that's around us really can have a big impact on us."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (02:56)
- Quote:
2. The 2008 Nature Walk Study
(04:20–10:15)
- Study Design: Participants performed challenging memory/attention tasks, then either walked in a park (nature) or through urban streets; their performance was reassessed afterwards.
- Major Findings:
- A walk in nature produced ~20% improvement in attention & memory tasks, whereas urban walks showed no such gains—even when controlling for mood.
- Benefits persisted regardless of weather or season (even unpleasant winter walks boosted cognition).
- The benefits were objective—not just perceived mood boosts.
- Quote:
"You didn't actually have to enjoy the walk in nature to get these cognitive benefits."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (09:55)
3. Green Space vs. Blue Space: What Counts as Restorative?
(10:16–16:13)
- Types of Nature: Both green (parks, forests) and blue (lakes, oceans) spaces can restore cognitive function.
- Two Modes of Attention:
- Directed attention is effortful and depletable; involuntary attention is automatically captured and less fatiguing.
- Environments that are “softly fascinating” (e.g., leaves rustling, waves lapping) capture attention gently and restore directed attention.
- Overly stimulating/harsh environments (e.g., Times Square) or dangerous/navigationally demanding hikes do not provide the same restoration.
- Quote:
"You don't often hear people say, 'I can't look at that beautiful waterfall anymore. It's just too beautiful.'"
—Dr. Marc Berman, (12:41)
4. Minimum Effective Dose & Everyday Access
(16:14–17:40)
- How Much Nature Is Enough?
- ~2 hours/week shows strong benefits; even 10 minutes/day of viewing nature images or listening to sounds offers measureable improvements.
- Opt for real nature when possible but use simulated nature (photos, sounds) when needed.
- Listen to your focus and energy; use nature breaks when attention flags.
- Quote:
"I would say you would shoot for probably maybe 20 minutes a day, I think would be a good minimum dose."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (16:47)
5. Broader Societal Impact: Schools, Crime, and Health Outcomes
(17:41–20:22)
- Academic Outcomes:
- More trees/green spaces around schools/home were linked to improved student performance and attention, even when controlling for income.
- Crime Reduction:
- Public housing with more natural views showed not only cognitive benefits but also less aggression and lower crime rates.
- Medical Recovery:
- Hospital patients with even simple views of nature recovered faster and used less pain medication than those with wall or urban views.
- Quote:
"The families and the residents that had the modest views of nature, they had better attention scores, lower reported aggression… lower rates of crime."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (18:30)
6. Urban Nature: Tree Canopy & Health (Toronto Study)
(21:03–26:41)
- Study Overview:
- Increased tree canopy by even a single tree per block improved health perceptions as much as making residents $10,000 richer or 7 years younger.
- A single extra tree per city block reduced cardiometabolic diseases (diabetes, heart disease, stroke) by 1%.
- Mechanisms: Likely includes increased activity, improved air quality, and perhaps a deeper, evolved aesthetic processing.
- Quote:
"Just increasing tree canopy by one… you got this 1% increase in health perception."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (22:46)
7. Not All Trees Are Created Equal & Urban Resilience
(26:42–28:42)
- Tree Diversity Matters: Some evidence for stronger benefits from evergreens in winter climates.
- Impact of Tree Loss:
- Natural disasters/infestations (like the emerald ash borer) that eliminate tree canopies correlate with higher mortality—especially from cardiovascular diseases.
- Quote:
"There was kind of this provocative headline, when trees die, people die."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (28:12)
8. Redesigning Cities & Workspaces for Health
(28:43–32:44)
- Action Items for City Planners:
- More trees, more usable green space, parks with hiking opportunities.
- Accessibility and perceived safety are crucial—parks must be safe and inviting, not just exist on paper.
- Nature is not a luxury:
“These green spaces, trees are not an amenity. They're a necessity.”
—Dr. Marc Berman, (32:14)
9. Nature as Mental Health Medicine
(32:45–35:21)
- Nature for Depression & Anxiety:
- Walks in nature offer especially strong cognitive benefits for people with depression, above and beyond the non-clinical population.
- Nature Supplement Ideas:
- Bring plants (even fake ones) into your home.
- Choose scenic walking/driving routes, even if longer.
- Use nature images/sounds when access is limited, but prioritize real exposure.
- Quote:
"We found effects that were much stronger for the participants who are suffering from depression… Their attention and memory increased by more."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (33:27)
10. Cities, Architecture, & 'Naturizing' Urban Life
(35:22–38:46)
- Urban Design Principles:
- Urban environments can be highly beneficial if infused with green spaces, walkability, “softly fascinating” nooks, and architectural motifs that echo natural patterns.
- Cities should be “naturized” to unlock creativity and foster wellbeing—leaving cities isn’t necessary or desirable.
- Favorite Nature Walks:
- Garden of the Phoenix (Chicago), High Park (Toronto), The Presidio (San Francisco), Central Park (NYC), Everglades (Miami), Stockholm’s integrated parks; Singapore’s green architecture.
- Quote:
"We actually find that cities, bigger cities, have lower rates of depression than smaller cities. But we want to kind of naturize these cities."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (35:51)
11. The Future of Research
(38:47–41:13)
- Technological Advances:
- Adoption of functional near-infrared spectroscopy allows measuring brain activity during real outdoor experiences.
- Understanding Soft Fascination:
- Investigating why natural stimuli are easier and less taxing for our brains, possibly due to our ability to compress/process this sensory data more efficiently.
- Quote:
"Nature images get compressed down into fewer bits, less information than urban images...maybe our brains are actually doing the same thing."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (40:27)
Practical Takeaways & Final Advice
(41:14–44:03)
- You don’t have to love nature to benefit: Even in inclement weather or imperfect conditions, nature exposure is restorative.
- Be mindful of focus: Take nature breaks when attention feels depleted—don’t default to digital distractions.
- Naturize your surroundings: Redesign interiors with natural elements/patterns; get kids outside regularly; even simulated nature has benefits.
- Advocate for a 'Nature Revolution': Shift public perception—nature is a biological necessity, not just a luxury. Push for more green spaces at every scale of society, from classrooms (more recess!) to city planning.
- Quote:
"We’re not going to be able to reach our full potential unless we have more nature in our daily lives and in our daily activities."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (43:37)
- Quote:
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the misconception of nature as a luxury:
“...a lot of Americans and people in general just think of nature or trees as an amenity, but not a necessity... No, we need it because it has physical health benefits, mental health benefits... These green spaces, trees are not an amenity. They're a necessity.” (32:00–32:14) -
On ‘restorative’ nature experiences:
“The kind of interaction...is like a safe experience where, you know, you could just Kind of let your mind go. You don't have to be too vigilant.” (15:05) -
On mental health:
“We found really, really strong benefits for participants who are suffering from depression... effects that were much stronger...” (33:15–33:27)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:27 – Dr. Berman’s background & the origins of environmental neuroscience
- 04:50 – Nature walk study & its findings
- 10:39 – Green vs. blue space and attention restoration theory
- 16:14 – Minimum effective ‘dose’ of nature
- 17:41 – Green spaces, schools, crime, and health
- 21:03 – Toronto tree study
- 26:02 – Are all trees (and tree losses) equal?
- 28:43 – Urban planning for nature
- 32:45 – Nature as medicine for mental health
- 35:22 – Naturizing cities & the value of simulated nature
- 36:30 – Dr. Berman’s favorite restorative walks
- 39:00 – Future research frontiers
- 41:14 – Final takeaways and calls to action
Final Thoughts
"Start thinking about redesigning your interior spaces, getting more nature in... think about how you what you're putting on your walls or paintings on your walls or the even like the texture of your carpet, the patterns on your carpet, if they mimic the patterns of nature, we think that's going to have benefits."
—Dr. Marc Berman, (41:41)
Closing message: Rethink your environment—nature is not a bonus, but a foundation for optimal brain health, longevity, and community wellbeing. Start small: the science says every tree counts.