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The mindbodygreen Podcast
641: The science of real optimism & why positivity is holding you back | Deepika Chopra, Ph.D.
00:48:08
Deepika Chopra, Ph.D. (widely known as The Optimism Doctor) is a clinical health psychologist, visual imagery expert, and author of the upcoming book The Power of Real Optimism. But here's what makes Deepika's work so different: she's not selling you positivity. In this episode, we get into the real science of optimism—and why it has far more to do with resilience and curiosity than with good vibes.
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the MyBodyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wakab, founder and co CEO of MyBodyGreen and your host. This podcast was created in sponsorship with Toyota. At MyBodyGreen we believe in a well lived life is one you share with people you love. The right vehicle makes that possible. The 2026 Toyota RAV4 is built for all of life's moments, big and small. Need more room for the crew? The Toyota Highlander comfortably seats up to eight. For bigger plans, The Toyota Grand Highlander offers spacious comfort and smart storage. When family's at the center of it all, the Toyota Sienna brings flexibility to support every chapter. No matter where you're headed, the right vehicle turns travel time into together time. Learn more@toyota.com People are the destination Dr. Deepika Chopra, widely known as the Optimism Doctor, is a clinical health psychologist, visual imagery expert, and the author of the new book the Power of Real Optimism. But here's what makes Deepika's work so different. She's not selling you positivity. In fact, she's been pushing back on that idea since she wrote what became a viral article right here on mindbody Green over a decade ago about why affirmations don't always work. In today's show, we get into the real science of optimism and why it has far more to do with resilience and curiosity than with good vibes. Deepika breaks down the difference between toxic positivity and what she calls real optimism, why your emotions are actually data points and the 710 rule for affirmations that actually work. We also talk about manifestation, the gap between what you want, what you expect, and why. Emotional flexibility may be the single most important skill any of us can develop right now. This one is personal, practical and genuinely eye opening. Let's dive in. You make a strong distinction between positivity and real optimism. So what are we getting wrong culturally about optimism right now?
- [02:04]
B
Yeah, so you know, whenever I'm speaking to people and I think this is fair, I will always ask people, what's the first word that comes to mind when you think of optimism? And it is a resounding echo of people saying positivity and being positive or, you know, the glass half full and rose colored glasses. And we all have this notion that being optimistic is someone that is experiencing 24, 7 bliss and is just living in joy and positivity all the time. And a lot of times on the flip side, I think there's this misunderstanding that someone that is optimistic is devoid of reality and doesn't really take into account what is really happening. I hear people all the time being like, well, I'm not an optimist. I'm a realist, you know, and they make this. This distinction with that. And I'm here to say that, you know, the more scientific definition of optimism, actually, it doesn't really. I mean, of course I like to look at optimism and positivity more like cousins. They're not, like, they're not interchangeable at all, but they are, like, somewhat related. I more relate more strongly optimism to the idea of resilience and curiosity. And so someone that is more optimistic is someone that is actually keenly and really, really mindfully and intentionally aware of the reality of a situation. The setbacks, the less than ideal situations, the roadblocks. But the caveat is they actually see those setbacks as something that are temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome, even if they don't know how or when, but they know that they can overcome it. And that is based on historical, personal resiliency. And the part that the curiosity piece that comes in is oftentimes someone that is in, you know, living in optimism or is in that optimistic mindset, someone that is rooted in their true authentic feeling. And many times that's a feeling that may not feel good, like grief or anger, you know, sadness, worry, one of those feelings, and they're rooted in that feeling. They're sitting in their authentic feeling. But they have this small bit of curiosity as to, like, how this will change. They may not know exactly how, again, but they just are curious. There's an openness and this possibility. There is like a room for hope. And that is more what optimism is rather than this blanket sort of, you know, I don't see anything good vibes only. I don't see anything negative. I'm living in bliss 24 7. And, you know, first of all, that's impossible. None of us are immune to struggle. And I think that's something that. It's really an important and imperative piece of being a human to be able to accept that none of us are immune to struggle and that we as humans were built and made to experience the full range of human emotion.
- [05:21]
A
It feels like to me that there's this acceptance of a reality or the gravity of a situation or of a feeling, you know, whether it's anxiety or hurt or pain, stepping in, doing it, acknowledging it, and then moving on versus not acknowledging something happened. That's upsetting. Is that safe to say?
- [05:48]
B
Yeah, it's. I like to look at sort of what I call real optimism as something that is very rooted in the idea of. And it is not like one thing or another. It's. And, and what we know about optimism is that it is cultivated through perseverance. And when you persevere, you persevere, you overcome something that is a struggle. And so it, that is where the optimism is actually cultivated. It's not necessarily that optimism is, is grown and cultivated from when you are feeling the most blissful. It's that we have. And we wouldn't even know what bliss truly was unless we felt the full human range of emotion. And so yes, there is that idea that, you know, it's that that age old saying of you have to really go through something to get through it. And it sounds cliche, but it's very true. Our brains are, you know, not to again sound cliche, but it's a smart, efficient organ. Like you're not tricking your way into something. And emotions are strong and powerful and they, you, you have the ability to navigate through them and they only become greater and more pervasive if we are pushing them underneath the rug and not meeting them, you know, in the face of what they are. And I think that when you are someone that is fed and told that there is no space for these negative emotions and then you feel them because you will, because you're human, you now have this extra level of guilt or shame or failure. You know, I'm a failure at this because I'm feeling this way or I'm, I'm not supposed to be stressed. That's a whole, like I have encountered this so much in my career and really, you know, as someone that, that spent a lot of time seeing patients that were diagnosed with a, you know, oncology related disease or their families or during the pandemic when things were so unknown and uncertain. And like right at that beginning, I remember getting so many calls from people being like, I really need to work on my stress and my worry because I'm hearing that like if I'm actually stressed about this and putting it in my mind, then I'm going to catch this more because I'm welcoming it into my mind. And now we're kind of stepping into some toxic positivity and some forms of manifestation which I'm not against. But when they're not, when they're not, you're not talking about the full picture and using sort of neuroscience or how the brain works, then it can become a little detrimental.
- [08:22]
A
Lot to unpack there. Let's go with manifestation and affirmations. You live in la, so you're like the, you know, the heart of manifestation and affirmation culture.
- [08:31]
B
This is such a full circle moment. Because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I wrote an article when Mind bodygreen first started on Affirmations.
- [08:42]
A
You did. You have a great, great memory. This was like a dec. Over a decade ago.
- [08:47]
B
Oh, so long ago. It was like when, when Mind bodygreen first started and I was like a contributor and I wrote this article on why affirmations don't always work. And it was so controversial and like, I got so. At that time, which I just feel like there wasn't that. Like, I just got so, so many emails about this one article. Most of them people kind of being like, oh my goodness, thank God, this really makes sense. But like, it was so counter to what I think people were saying and doing at the time with affirmations. And it's just so full circle and fun to be sitting here across from you and talking about that. Because I, I'm pretty sure it was for Mind Body Green.
- [09:30]
A
Yeah, it was. I, I remember now that you say it a hundred percent. I, I remember it went viral, I think got hundreds of thousands of views, maybe millions at the time.
- [09:39]
B
Yeah, yeah. So it is actually one of my favorite topics. And I realize at that time it is a topic that a lot of people are interested in and they have opinions and feelings about and I stick to the research and the science and the data behind it. But the point of that is that, yes, affirmations can be really powerful and useful if done correctly, like so many other things. But unfortunately, like so many things, we've kind of diluted and lost some of these specifics and how to use something like an affirmation. And so this, the scary part is for affirmations don't always work and especially for the people that really need them. And so at best, they don't work. At like the worst, they're actually pretty detrimental for these people. And so if you hold, you know, this really strong core belief that, you know, you are not a deserving of love person, a lovable person, and someone tells you to just stand in front of a mirror and say, I am a lovable person, like the exact opposite of what you truly feel and what your brain has collected over decades of evidence to prove to be true for you, because our brains collect evidence to prove whatever we're thinking to be more true. That's just how it works. That's the efficiency part of our brain. Sometimes that works for us, and a lot of times it serves us not in the best way, and we have to really work on dismantling those. But what we know about affirmations are if you say that in front of a mirror, your brain very quickly starts to, like, pick up, like, a file cabinet of all the evidence why that is not true, and it reminds you of it. And then you immediately feel this sense of, wait a second, that's not true, and how ridiculous it was that I even thought it was. Now I feel even worse about myself. And so what I have come up with, and I write about in one of the chapters in the Power of Real Optimism, is this idea of the 710 rule. I am someone that loves measurable things. I come from a cognitive, behavioral sort of background. So if you can rate an affirmation that you're going to use, 10 being something you believe the most, 0 being obviously something that you believe the least, and you can rate it at least 7 out of 10, it will be a useful affirmation for you to actually go forward and use. Anything less than that should not be used, in my opinion, as an affirmation. But we can come up with new, more specific, tailored affirmations that are within the same sort of space and direction you want to go, but actually meet the 710 criteria. And so it's important to understand that you, your brain has to actually believe something is possible if you're going to use it. Even if it doesn't believe it, 10 out of 10, it has to believe in the possibility of it. And so the idea with manifestation, I think, is so wonderful that people want to talk about what they want, and they want to focus on that, and they want to, you know, they might have created, you know, a vision board or whatever it is, but they're really sitting in that idea of something they truly want. But I always say that you don't always get what you want, and I think most people can agree with that, but you most always get, or you're pretty close to getting what you expect. And so it is. The work is really in that gap and closing that gap between want and expectation.
- [13:12]
A
Well, also, the key word, in my view, is the work. You have to do the work. And just saying words in front of a mirror, that's not necessarily doing the work. You can't just. I can't believe I'm quoting Jim Carrey again. I've used this quote a couple of times. He had this line about manifestation. You know, you can't manifest something fabulous then go lie on the couch and eat a ham sandwich. Like, you need to go do the
- [13:41]
B
work and expect it to come to just fall into your lap and be like, oh, thanks. Thanks, Santa.
- [13:49]
A
And then the other thing I want to touch on, you write in the book, I love the way you think about this. Emotions are data. And this idea of acknowledging the feeling and really thinking about it as I never thought, it's brilliant. Like, this is a data point. And how can I leverage this data point for my next course of action, my next step? Whatever the feeling is anxiety. You know, I wouldn't say there are good or bad feelings, but some feelings we welcome more than others. But let's say it's anxiety. This is a. How can I leverage this data point?
- [14:25]
B
Yeah. And I think that something that, when. When you talked about also right before that, like the work piece too. Why would you want to skip over the work piece? That is the part where I think, like, we miss a lot of people. It's very hard for people to. When I ask them, what's something you're proud of? Like, you would be amazed how hard it is for people to come up with even one thing that they have a sense of pride in about themselves for. They can tell you 10 things that they want to work on and that they think needs improvement. And that is. That makes sense. That's how our brain is. Even how our brain works with memory. I don't know if you have experienced this, but most people, their most potent sort of memories of childhood or their, you know, most vivid memories of life are in moments where mistakes were made or things didn't go exactly the way they wanted them to go or things needed fixing. And they don't necessarily. Things get blurred over in memory of, like, these joyful, more happy. Obviously we call them mundane moments because we didn't pay. We made them mundane. But the point here is to focus on those and to really even marinate in the things that we are proud of ourselves for and to at least be able to say one thing that you're proud of yourself for at any given season in time. And I think that that only comes from when you truly understand and you accept and acknowledge the work you put into what you are living today instead of just like, you know, how many times do we sit and actually ask ourselves, like, what is something that I am enjoying and living through today that I wanted so badly, that I wanted to manifest so badly? And it is true for me today, like what? And all the work it took me to get here. Like, we don't Spend a lot of time in that. What we do as humans, more so is really have a goal or want something and oftentimes work really hard to get there and then, like, achieve that and immediately go to the next, like, what else can I work on? Which is, it's great to be forward moving, but there is a huge piece of something really important that we are skipping over and missing, which, by the way, if we did, would make us move forward even quicker.
- [16:51]
A
You know, it reminds me, I was listening to Founders Podcast, which is one of my favorite podcasts, to listen to, where David Senra was profiling Roger Federer, who many think is the greatest tennis player of all time. And it was fascinating because you got insight into Federer's mind and a few things stuck out. Federer, at a very young age, said, I want to be the best tennis player in the world. And he has this inner struggle where he can't control his emotions. He wants to win so badly. And he had all these eruptions, you know, throwing his racket and all this crazy stuff, and then finally says, like, I need to be able to manage this. This is embarrassing. I need to get serious. But what's fascinating is he says the feelings never went away. He just held them inside. He would have this moment where he lost the point and would say to himself, like, I'm terrible. Like, what an idiot. I can't believe I did that. And then very quickly pivot to, like, all right, I'm the best. I got to win the next point and move. And, like, flipped a switch. And I thought it was. This is the best player arguably ever to play. He still experienced those feelings of failure, anxiety, but he was able to pivot.
- [17:59]
B
Yes. And that is kind of like treating those feelings as a data point. That kind of brings us back to that instead of like a command or a directive. And so it's really like you are working through. And it's true, like, I would say for him, I'm sure, and I love how he's open about that. It's not like the feelings went away. And it's not like the. He could control all the circumstances, but he had to learn how to pivot or how to hold that feeling and express it differently.
- [18:31]
A
Yes. That to me, you figure that out. You figure out so much of life.
- [18:35]
B
Absolutely. And that. That comes from knowing yourself. You know, like, we are less reactive when we actually spend the time to really know who we are. And oftentimes you might be surprised, but we don't spend a lot of time in the way that the modern sort of world is. And we're not given a lot of natural opportunities to spend time within ourselves. And that's why we have to, again, like so many other things, like, on purpose, intentionally create those moments. Because, you know, it sounds, again, sort of cliche, but we are each unique. And so what. What makes him tick is very different than what is going to make someone else tick. And if he knows that about himself, like, the only way to actually grow is to know that and know what you can do to work, to pivot. Because pivoting is. And having emotional flexibility is the key to all of this. Emotional flexibility is literally the skill that we all should be sharpening like a muscle.
- [19:40]
A
And how do we go about doing that? Other than, of course, purchasing the book, which everyone should go buy. It's an amazing book.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah. But so much of optimism, and this idea of real optimism is literally based on emotional flexibility. So it is, you know, really spending time knowing who you are and going through sort of the idea of letting go of certain things that are rigid. And that is difficult because we as adults have, again, the brain. I love this idea of telling people that we are like detectives. And so much of real optimism, the way that we actually can train it is through, number one, explanatory style, which is understanding for everyone that everything is temporary. That is like a very key part of this. And then after that, it's collecting evidence. And so the evidence is a lot of times there. But the way. And we call these cognitive biases, but the way that we, you know, have formed these beliefs over time, over decades of time, over experiences and socialization and our interpretation of circumstances and experiences in our lives over time, we create these really, like, cement rigid beliefs. And sometimes those beliefs can really serve us and work for us, and other times it would be so beneficial to start softening those and to be flexible in them. But we only know what our beliefs are if we spend the time to actually understand what our beliefs are. Does that make sense?
- [21:15]
A
Yeah. And to me, also, action's really important here. You know, it feels like people get stuck, myself included, when there's uncertainty, you know, intense uncertainty. And what I found to personally help is action. Even if I don't have the answers, I'm just taking steps somewhere.
- [21:33]
B
Absolutely. That is a huge part of this. And even in the most small ways, you know, you don't need to know everything about the way something's going to go to take action and to move forward towards it. In fact, you shouldn't, because life rarely plays out the way you intend it to in the best circumstances and the worst circumstances. That is again, back to none of us are, you know, there are, I think we can all understand and we've all sort of, I think so many people are living in this collective, this collective moment right now of just sheer uncertainty, whether it is something personal or global, like I think most people can agree. And there was actually a really important Gallup survey that went out and the results came back just last month. And we are at an all time low, lowest in 20 years of future optimistic thinking in the U.S. and I, when I read that and I say that out loud, I'm like, I, that makes sense, obviously. And so I think you can gloss over that and just be like, well, duh, like there are. So I could tell you 10 things right now in my own life or globally why, like we all might be feeling this way. But to me there's something bigger there and it's not the duh. Like we know why, it's that we have to do something about this. Like it's. And the thing is we're missing tools. And that's really what it is because we are missing the right tools to deal with uncertainty. And we have come to sort of a boiling point where uncertainty is not just something we personally experience. We are exposed to so much and so much at once that we are being exposed to a global level of uncertainty almost every single minute of the day. You know, our ancestors, I think, were in probably fight, flight, freeze every time they may have hunted, which is, you know, maybe every two weeks or whatever it was. We in modern worlds are in the fight, flight, freeze, you know, part of reaction and in experiencing that type of state in our minds, in our bodies, almost every minute of the entire day and including when we're sleeping sometimes. So we need tools. And, And I think something that's really important is that, that people don't understand is that the brain prioritizes safety and survival over growth. And so you can have all the tools, you could read all the books, you can listen to the podcasts. But in unless your brain and your body feel safe and that it is going to survive, it cannot grow. And so some of these tools we're talking about to start with are so minimal sounding, but they are the groundwork before anyone can make growth. And that is. And sometimes saying this word, I think it's like become the new target word. That is, you know, hopefully that it's so mainstream that people think about it, but not to the point where people are like eye rolling about it, but it is so much of this is about your nervous system, system and it is about regulating. And that I would say is the first place to start because your brain will not prioritize, you know, turning on that prefrontal cortex and getting all the solutions and sort of working through problems until it feels that it is safe.
- [25:06]
A
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- [25:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm still navigating through it, to be honest. And it was almost like a cruel irony. I think I have been through struggle before. We have all been through struggle. And again, we'll remind you right now that you have been through every single one of your hardest days. And so I, I knew I had been through struggle before. But when that hit, like, I was two months into writing the manuscript of the Power of Real Optimism, this book on optimism. And my now middle son at the time, he was our youngest, who's two and a half, and we were about to have our third. Or like we were just about, yeah, like just excited to welcome the idea of the third. And we got some really quote unquote bad news. We got this diagnosis that was life shattering and it came out of nowhere. He was completely healthy and fine. He just had this like small little mark and I watched it. Not for long. I took him right in and next thing we know, a couple weeks later, we are operating and being given like we have a two week pathology wait, which, like, you know, I knew the terminology and I couldn't believe that's what we were talking about. And they gave us sort of three options and they said either it is absolutely nothing, which we are almost 100% sure it's not. The second thing is it looks like it could be, you know, this one thing which is immediately fatal. And the third thing we know, not much about. So rare. We have some treatment for it, but we don't really know how much the treatment is effective or not effective. We Just don't know anything about it. That's the space my husband and I lived in for those two weeks, which I don't wish upon anyone because we literally went there mentally, you know, in, in every way. Emotionally, mentally, physically. Like this could be it. And unfortunately for us, it did not turn out to be the nothing. Even though I spent a lot of time during that two week wait, you know, really allowing myself to think that they got it wrong. And even though they weren't, you know, they were so positive it wasn't going to be just absolutely nothing. There is something inside of me that really tried to go there. And I used all these tools that I had used before that sometimes were effective but not obviously weren't effective enough in this situation. And I visualized, you know, him being completely healthy and fine. I did all kinds of stuff. I surrounded him in my mind with white rose. Like, I just, I tried everything. Thankfully, it turned out not to be the immediately fatal. But unfortunately we did get that third option and it was something like two in a million kids get this and it's just chalked to bad luck and they don't know much about it. There were like three doctors in the world that knew and not even a whole lot about it. And so immediately, like, our lives shattered and we had this really, just this marathon ahead of us that seemed impossible. You know, a year and a half of treatment and surgeries and medications and immunosuppressing stuff and wait, he can't go to school for a year. And, and just so many, so many things that seemed impossible. And honestly, the first two months of it, I called the edit, I called my editor and I was just like, I don't even know if I could do this because I, I feel no optimism and it feels like I'm just like fraudulent. Like I can't, I don't know if this stuff works. Like, I am hiding underneath my office desk sobbing and like screaming to my husband that, like, I can't do this. Like, I cannot pin him down, give him these medications and watch another nurse pierce his chest with, you know, an immunosuppressant drug every single week for a year and a half. Like, I just couldn't see it. I couldn't do it. I'm the mom who, you know, I can't watch my kids scooter drive. Like, thank God for my husband. He, you know, my older son was on a scooter. I remember one day and he was like, babe, I have to take a call. This is when he was younger and he said, can you just watch Jag? I'll be right back. I'm walking around the block. And he came back and he took a video of me. And he's like, babe, this is very dangerous. My hands were over my eyes, and I was just like. He's like, just by putting. Covering your. Your eyes are not going to make the risk of him falling less. In fact, you're going to miss it. I just couldn't watch it. I mean, I was like, that's where. That's the part. That's where I was operating from. And now, you know, I was dealing with something totally different. But the irony is. Well, the first irony is that we were dealing with that while I was writing a book on optimism. But the flip of that was, you know, I did have to make deadlines. And I started to realize once after a couple months, because I couldn't do anything for a couple months. Writing this book and reminding myself of the tools and literally having to use them in real time actually saved my sanity and got me through it. It helped me show up every single day to do what I needed to do. Which also part of it is, as a parent, you just do. But I showed up every day because I had this book to write, and I was reminded to use the tools. And I know that this idea and this framework of real optimism works not just as a scientist, but as someone that literally had to use them in the most imperfect conditions. And that is what I think is important. We can all talk about tools and ideas and stories when things feel good, but what do you actually use when you feel in a really heavy or uncertain space? And what really helps you show up? Because we still have to show up. And, you know, not that everyone's going through the same exact thing, but I think everyone's going through a period of uncertainty now. And for me, what I think is most important is not, like, our look of. It shouldn't be like, oh, well, great, that study came out. Like, it proves where we're all at, and there's nothing we can do about it. Like, we don't want people to just be numb or, like, have apathy with this and have to look away. Like, so many people I know, which I understand, and I feel the same way sometimes call me right now, and they're just like, I can't. Like, I can't face another day. Like, I don't want to look anymore. Like, maybe I should just stop, you know, talking to people. Or maybe I should stop looking at any news. Like, I don't want the stimulation anymore. I don't want the exposure. It's too much like I'm too overwhelmed. I feel too heavy, like I'm in too much grief. And I think that we do need to keep. We need to boundary it, but we do. The, the answer is not to look away. We just need to have the tools to help us to keep, like, really deeply caring about our own lives and our world. We need to keep looking at things with eyes open. But we do need the tools to help us carry it in a way that we. That's different than how we've been carrying it because that's not sustainable. And so for me, that is relying on science and research. And there are so many different ways that, that we can unlock these tools that we already actually possess and have. It's just like something like optimism is a muscle. It is not something that is a personality trait. Yes, there is a heritability. You know, there is something genetic in it. It's. It's not as big as we thought. It's close to about 20, 25% at the most. But the majority of something like optimism is learned skill. And it would serve all of us in the best possible way right now to ourselves be trained in this idea of real optimism and spread it to everyone we know. Because that's how, that's how we can actually change. And we have to be able to imagine that something is better for us to actually put forth the energy to take action to making it better. And I think what I came out with, with this experience and the reason I say I'm still living it is we don't know what the future holds. And I guess I would say no one does. But, like, we do not know what the future holds for our son. There is no data. And honestly, I love data. I am such a person that is lives by data and science. But I got dealt with something that was two in a million. So like, even the data doesn't make me feel good, you know, Like I'm someone now that just. I can't unsee what I had seen. But you know, what I do know coming out of it is that something in a way that I didn't quite know before, so strongly I can do hard things. Like that girl that was crying under her desk and hiding and covering her eyes, you know, when the just of the idea of my kid might fall or hiding under my office desk and asking my husband, like, I don't. I just don't think, I don't think I can do this. Like, I actually don't think I can. And the fact that I did and we did and he did, you know, my, my son, my husband, us, like, I don't know what else will come. And I know, you know, struggle will come again, but what I do know is that I will be able to handle it. It may break me like that did, but I'll, I'll get through it. And I think that's a really important piece of real optimism. Really, it is, you know, it's rooted in that resiliency. And I have that, like, that is now something that is, like, sewn in to me.
- [36:04]
A
Do you, you'll hear sometimes that people are only dealt as much as they can handle in life. Do you, what, what's your view on that belief?
- [36:19]
B
I don't know if I believe that. I just think that I don't love that. I had to go through what I had to go through, and it doesn't make me feel better. That phrase doesn't. If it makes you feel better, that's great. That phrase doesn't make me feel better. And I, I think, like, I, I, I always would say, like, well, I think I could learn, I could have learned this lesson in many different ways and I could have done without, you know, the, the heartbreak and shattering of, and just pure grief, worry and sadness that I have for my child. I could have done without that. But yes, I do think, I think all of us are capable. You know, I had a lot of friends and family that were just like, wow, you're so strong. And it was like this interesting, like, thank you. But I don't think I'm strong. I think I'm just rising to the occasion because I have to. And we have it in us. And I think all of us would have acted in the same way.
- [37:20]
A
Given, given that any parent listening, it hits home, I think, you know, in terms of dealing with a situation that's just heartbreaking or extraordinarily scary, something that came to mind for me was the Stockdale Paradox. Are you familiar with the Stockdale Paradox?
- [37:49]
B
No.
- [37:50]
A
So I think it's Admiral Stockdale. I believe he was Ross Perot's running mate when he ran for president a couple decades ago. So Stockdale.
- [38:00]
B
Oh, is this like the, like, unwavering?
- [38:03]
A
He was the V. He was a prisoner of war.
- [38:06]
B
Yes. The faith that eventually, eventually he, he,
- [38:11]
A
he believed that eventually he would get out. And his view was the people who were just un, you know, who would put a timeline like, I'm going to get out by Christmas, and then Christmas would pass, and then they'd say, all right, I'm gonna get out by Easter. Then Easter would pass. And those are the people who didn't make it. But his view was, I don't know when, but I know what's going to happen. And he was the one who survived. What's your take on that?
- [38:38]
B
Absolutely. That is. That's sort of that difference between blind positivity and, like, real grounded optimism. And the same thing is true. You know, I interviewed. When I had my podcast, I interviewed the most amazing woman, Dr. Edith Eger, who is one of the oldest Holocaust survivors. And. And her, like, point of view and real sort of rooted in real optimism was so, like, poignant to me. It was almost like an illustration of all the bits of science and research I had seen. And here she was like. And she was so young during it. She was just, like, living it, and that's what got her through. But she, like, again, it wasn't. She didn't put these specific dates on it, but she knew, like, she was living in her mind, like, continuously of this. Like, she knew she was going to have this future. And she saw it and she saw. She didn't again, put time limits on it, but she. She just believed in it so much. And it's something that she said was, you know, before all of it. Her mom used to always tell her that, you know, people can take everything away from you, but they can't take your spirit. And her spirit was hers. I think she. That in that moment when it was tested, she held onto it so tightly, and while other, you know, people along with her that would go, you know, she said every day they would go and be either, like, put in, like, it's time to take a shower, and they didn't know if they were going to be in a shower or in. Or be. If, you know, water was going to come out or gas was going to come out. And she literally just held. So what kept her going, she said, is she unwaveringly believed in being reunited and dancing again. She was a dancer and could see it in her future so clearly. Like, there's not one. And she felt. She also said she felt sorry for the people that imprisoned her. And I thought that was, like, so profound. Like, she had empathy, and it just, like she. She had so much stock in and. And even allowed herself to visualize, but so much stock in the fact that, like, she knew this wasn't it, and she didn't know how or when, but she had this discipline and just this, like, Unwavering faith that this was not the whole story. And that is a piece of real optimism where you don't know how things turn out, you don't know how you're going to get out of any certain circumstance, but you just know that this isn't the whole story. And like having that, like sometimes it's neutral, sometimes it's being in curiosity, sometimes it's being in faith. Whatever it is that is, it's a really integral part of this.
- [41:39]
A
The word I want to unpack, you said it a couple times, is faith. And also I want to call out is faith without a timeline.
- [41:49]
B
Yeah, I think that that's also true with some of the manifestation stuff. I always, like I always say like when you're trying, it's not that we're trying to control all the outcomes, you know, like we're not trying, we, we can't. And I think like when you separate that and you, you let go a little bit of the control. And again, like it's interesting because the word faith, you know, and hope feels very different than control.
- [42:18]
A
Yes. Wasn't that where we run into trouble psychologically too? Because the reality, like can you talk about letting go and why that's, you're, you're a scientist, like the science of letting go seems to be a key component.
- [42:33]
B
Yeah, well, I think it's letting go of the specifics and it's letting go of the control. And then it is, it's this art form of. Then also we as humans do need to feel in control. And so it's this art form of letting go. The areas where you do not have control but then really taking sort of advantage and taking stock and agency of the areas where you do have control. And that like, that sort of. Yeah, it's a nuanced, almost like an art form I think. And over time, I think that is also something psychologically that we learn through experience and through time. And I forgot to say when we were talking about affirmations that the population that I believe these blanket generic affirmations actually work the best for and that you don't necessarily have to rate like 7 out of 10 is for children because that population doesn't have the years of experiences and interpretation of experiences to build these really cement self limiting beliefs or beliefs in general. And so that population I think is a great population when they're really little where you can use almost any like positive affirmation. And I think it's really helpful. But as we get older, I think it's this, you know, Balanced idea of believing in something and having like hope that something will change, but being open within that change again, not like holding so tightly to like when it's going to change, what the change will look like, you know, every single detail about it, but just being rooted in the fact that it will change and holding a curiosity and even if you can get there, more of a positive hope that whatever the change will be, will be for the better. Sometimes we're not there yet and that's okay.
- [44:31]
A
You mentioned hope. What's the difference between healthy hope and delusion?
- [44:36]
B
I mean, exactly what we've been talking about. I think healthy hope is being is the and part. You know, I write about this in the book. I'm such a visual person and the way that I like visualize were really like, can define what real optimism is to me is I see myself. Like I close my eyes and I really can see. I see myself just like sitting in a dark room and I'm on the floor and I don't like how I'm feeling right now. I want to get out of whatever this room is and situation is, but I don't quite know how to do it. And I'm like really rooted in how I'm feeling. I'm knowing it, I'm like sitting in it and I'm giving it the space and attention actually, but like, there's a slight gaze, you know, to the distance. And I see a door. And that's it. I see a door. And that is like my starting point. And I don't know what's behind the door, but I do know that whatever is behind the door is very different than what's inside here. And I'm curious as to what might be behind that door. And then maybe I don't have enough in me to get up right now or to see further. But over time, when I'm sitting in my emotion and I just saw that door, the brain sort of opens up this idea that there is a possibility that something is different than in this room behind that door and allows you to kind of like swirl with ideas or thoughts and like grab onto a thought that something might be better outside of that door. Cause it has been before and I've been in this place before and it. It sucks and I don't love it. But I've. I have moved on from it. I've gotten out of this room before. So there's that like, huh, I've. I've been through this before. I'm probably going to be able to do it again. I don't know how, even if things feel a little different, and then you start to kind of see, like, maybe there's some light behind underneath the door. And then, you know, maybe you see that the door is unlocked or that it's slightly ajar. And so it is. The idea with the hope is that you are still deeply rooted and grounded in your authentic feeling and you know the reality of your situation. And at the very same time, you've left a small crack open for hope as to how this might change and what it might be like on the other side.
- [47:04]
A
Such a powerful book. Can't recommend it enough. The power of real optimism. And I love this core theme of facing reality with curiosity, resilience and a mindset that's future oriented. I think that's a message we all need. So, Deepika, thank you so much.
- [47:23]
B
Thank you so much for having me.