648: How to walk to optimize your health | Courtney Conley, D.C.

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The mindbodygreen Podcast – Episode 648

"How to walk to optimize your health | Courtney Conley, D.C."

Host: Jason Wachob (JW)
Guest: Dr. Courtney Conley (CC)
Release Date: May 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Courtney Conley returns to discuss the profound health benefits of walking, drawing from her new book Walk: Rediscover the Most Natural Way to Boost Your Health and Longevity. She argues that walking should be seen as a physiological necessity, not just a form of exercise, sharing insights on step-count guidelines, mental health, longevity, mechanics, footwear, and practical strategies for incorporating more walking into everyday life.

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1. Walking as a Physiological Necessity

[02:08–03:58]

• Dr. Conley asserts walking is as fundamental as breathing and sleeping, impacting every body system—musculoskeletal, nervous, and lymphatic.
• Quote [02:28]:

  “I want people to start thinking of walking as a physiological necessity, not simply as a form of exercise.” – CC

• Walking is an underutilized and accessible tool for overall wellbeing.
• When done efficiently, walking, breathing, and sleeping “feed off of one another.”

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2. Rethinking Step Count & The Science

[04:29–07:31]

• The popular 10,000-steps standard originated from a Japanese pedometer marketing campaign—not from scientific research.

• Science shows that:

  • 5,000 steps/day is enough to significantly reduce symptoms of depression.
  • Less than 5,000 steps/day is considered sedentary.
  • There are substantial health benefits between 5,000–7,500 steps/day, specifically for mental health.

• Quote [04:29]:

  “If you can hit 5,000 steps a day, you are going to feel better mentally. That's a very, very big deal.” – CC

• Microwalks (5 minutes ≈ 500 steps) are a tool for those struggling to even get started, including people in chronic pain.

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3. Dose, Intensity, & Diminishing Returns

[07:31–10:55]

• Anything above your baseline is beneficial; the goal is to move out of sedentary range.

• As step counts rise:

  • 5,000–7,500 steps/day help with mental health and reduce depression/anxiety
  • Brisk pace (130–135 steps/min) is optimal for cardiovascular and cancer-protective effects
  • After ~9,500 steps/day, health benefits plateau (diminishing returns)

• Quote [10:06]:

  “There is a law of diminishing return. So after about 9,000, 9,500 steps, you see things start to plateau.” – CC

• Diversify movement: Strength training is still crucial; endless walking is not a sole solution.

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4. Weighted Vests, Wearables, & Tracking

[10:55–14:13]

• Weighted vests can increase intensity and help reach higher heart rate zones while walking.
  • Not a replacement for strength training.
• For tracking brisk pace or heart rate:
  • Wearables like Garmin (Venus model), Fitbit, or Morpheus are recommended.
  • Some trackers struggle with accuracy (e.g., Whoop and walking heart rate).
• Elite athletes also benefit from walking as restorative, parasympathetic exercise.

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5. The Power of Movement Snacks & Micro Walks

[15:54–18:22]

• A single morning workout doesn’t negate the harms of prolonged daily sitting.
• Integrate “movement snacks” – short, regular walks or active breaks throughout the day.

Quote [16:43]:

“Your one hour of workout in the morning does not give you a free pass from not getting other movement in throughout the day.” – CC

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6. Walking for Blood Sugar, Longevity, and Mental Health

[17:05–19:16]

• Three 15-minute walks after meals regulate blood sugar as effectively as a single 45-minute walk.
• Movement after eating utilizes both the pancreas and muscle activity to clear glucose (“the sooner the better” after meals).
• Ambient walking (chores, cleaning) counts, but intentional, brisk walking is best.

Quote [18:17]:

“10 to 15 minutes and the sooner, the better. The research will tell you. The sooner, sooner the better. You're done, go.” – CC

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7. The Social & Emotional Value of Walking

[22:43–24:37]

• Walking can enhance personal relationships.
• Research shows walking with family members—especially teens—encourages open communication.
  • CC shares anecdotes of bonding with her own daughter through walks.
• Walking creates community, strengthens family ties, and boosts emotional wellbeing.

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8. Terrain, Variability, and Training Resilience

[24:47–28:12]

• Flat walks are good, but varied terrain (hills, uneven ground) builds resilience, strength, and proprioception in the feet, ankles, and legs.
• “Movement variability is where it’s at.”
  • Training the foot in all planes prepares you for unexpected obstacles.
• Focusing only on treadmill walking or over-cushioned surfaces misses longevity and injury prevention benefits.

Quote [25:43]:

“Walking is controlled falling... It’s how well we can decelerate our bodies. And that takes strength.” – CC

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9. Mechanics: Walking Well vs. Just Walking

[29:38–33:58]

• Everyone’s gait is unique, but efficiency matters.
• Key cues for walking well:
  • Swing your arms for “free energy” and effortless motion.
  • Walk tall; posture affects stride efficiency.
  • Walk softly; avoid heavy heel-striking.
  • When barefoot, a “hot and heavy” heel strike causes discomfort—listen to bodily cues.

Quote [29:54]:

“Walking is so beautiful to watch. I love watching people walk. It’s like a window to their soul.” – CC

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10. Shoe Wear Patterns, Calluses, and Foot Resilience

[33:58–36:41]

• Ideal wear pattern: Outside heel → across the ball → big toe.
• Keep calluses for protection—don’t file them away.
• A resilient foot is a healthy foot; “baby skin” feet aren’t ready for real life movement stress.

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11. Footwear: Tips & Mistakes

[36:41–40:39]

• The widest part of your foot—and your shoe—should be the toes, not the ball.
• Prioritize a wide toe box; Ultra brand mentioned for good example, but not the only option.
• Most foot injuries occur at the forefoot due to squished, narrow shoes.
• Foot health underpins whole-body resilience; poor footwear compromises longevity.

Quote [37:04]:

“The widest part of your foot should be your toes. So your footwear should match what your anatomy of your foot should be.” – CC

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12. Barefoot or Minimal Lifting?

[40:05–42:20]

• Gym lifters: Barefoot or minimal shoes allow better ground connection and stability.
• Over-cushioned gym shoes can increase injury risk and reduce sensory input.
• For squats/deadlifts: Aim to keep feet flat on the ground unless you’re an Olympic powerlifter; otherwise, improve ankle mobility or core strength if you can’t.

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13. Big Takeaways and Personal Changes

[42:31–44:07]

• Dr. Conley learned through writing Walk that she, too, often needed more low-intensity daily movement despite being “active.”
• She encourages everyone to weave in small walks (5–10 minutes) after meals or during breaks.
• “It doesn’t have to be epic,” and chasing 10,000 steps is not necessary for significant health gains.

Quote [44:07]:

“It doesn't have to be this. I have to hit 10,000 steps and I need to go walk for an hour … Five, ten minutes. Here, this idea of walking snacks, like, get five minutes in here, get ten minutes in there.” – CC

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Walking is not simply a form of exercise. It's a physiological necessity.” – CC [02:28]
• “Microwalk: five minutes, and in five minutes, you can get about 500 steps.” – CC [06:45]
• “At 5,000 steps, you are going to feel better mentally.” – CC [04:29]
• “I don’t think anything does [parasympathetic] calming state better than walking… I use walking also as my meditation.” – CC [14:13]
• “We should, most of us as recreational lifters, be able to lift weights with our foot on the ground.” – CC [42:10]

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Practical Tips & Take-Home Guidance

• Start where you are: Anything is better than nothing; microwalks add up.
• Aim for 5,000 steps/day: That’s a realistic goal for significant mental health benefits.
• Brisk pace: 130–135 steps/min for longevity/cancer-preventive effects.
• Movement snacks: 5-10 minutes of walking throughout the day is powerful.
• Walk after meals: Three 15-min walks post-meal for blood sugar and metabolic benefits.
• Prioritize foot health: Choose shoes with a wide toe box; aim for resilient feet, not soft.
• Vary your terrain: Seek hills, uneven ground, and different surfaces.
• Include social walks: Bond with family, friends, or neighbors.
• Combine with strength: Don’t let walking crowd out essential strength training.
• Assess your gait: Efficient, tall, soft walking with coordinated arm swing improves outcomes.

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For more in-depth details and practical foot exercises for every stage and ability, check out Dr. Courtney Conley’s book “Walk”.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the MyBodyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wakab, founder and co CEO of MindBodyGreen and your host. This podcast is sponsored by Abdokare. Some days demand more from you, whether it's a workout, back to back meetings or just staying present with your family. Spark Energy and Focus Provide stable, functional energy. Mix it up before a workout or even mid afternoon when you feel that dip coming on. It's so easy. Shake, sip and within minutes you feel more dialed in. Not wired or jittery, just clear, focused and ready to power through. The drink has a well rounded and balanced formula that goes way beyond just a quick energy boost. You get 120mg of caffeine paired with amino acids and taurine so the energy feels steady, not spiky or jittery. It also includes choline for mental focus and clarity plus B vitamins and L carnitine to support energy metabolism and vitamins C, A and E help support your immune health and everyday wellness. There's also zero sugar which makes a real difference on how you feel later on when you right now Spark Energy plus Focus is offering 30% off and free shipping. Go to drinkspark.com and use code MINDBODY GREEN at checkout. That's code [e-mail] what if thinking of walking as exercise is exactly what's been keeping us from doing more of it? That's right. Dr. Courtney Conley is back on the show to talk about her incredible new read titled Walk Rediscover the most natural way to boost your health and longevity

[B]

One step at a time.

[A]

Dr. Conley makes the case that walking is an exercise. It's a physiological necessity on par with breathing and sleep. We dig into why 5,000 steps a day is enough to reduce symptoms of depression, why three 15 minute walks after meals beats a 45 minute evening stroll for blood sugar regulation, and why the foot is the vehicle that makes all of this possible. The get into weighted vests, terrain variability and micro walks for when motivation is at rock bottom. This one will change how you think about walking, the most underutilized tool in your health arsenal.

[B]

Let's dive in. You say walking is fundamental to human health as breathing and sleeping, which I tend to agree with. Why is something so biologically essential become so overlooked in the health conversations we have today?

[C]

Such a good, good place to start. Jason, thank you so much. I want people to start thinking of walking as a physiological necessity, not simply as a form of exercise. I think when we think exercise, it can be Optional. But when we look at things like breathing and sleeping, these are physiological necessities. And when we do them well and efficient, we are functioning to our best. If we add in walking to that mix, those three factors feed off of one another. Walking is a core biological input that we as Homo sapiens and as a biped, walking on two feet is necessary for our survival. It literally affects every single system in our bodies, from our musculoskeletal system to our nervous system to our lymphatic system. So that kind of repetitive, low to moderate intensity activity is crucial for our wellness. And I think we've gotten away from it. I think it's one of the most easily accessible, underutilized forms of, you know, treatment, if you will, in the clinical world that people aren't taking advantage of. So I really wanted to bring it back to light that this is something that we all need to be doing.

[B]

A hundred percent agree. And I think, I think of intention with walking. What do you think about pace? Intensity? Steps incline, after meal, before meal. Like there's so many ways, if we think of what's the desired benefit, if you will, is it mental health, is it cardiovascular health, blood sugar? But it's a lot to unpack. But like, can we talk about minimum effective doses? Because there's varied science here. And then intensity.

[C]

You know, when I was doing the research, I'm a foot person, you know, I'm all about the foot. And one of the things that intrigued me so much when I was doing the research for this is there really is no musculoskeletal diagnosis or condition that will stop you in your tracks from walking more than foot pain. You know, when I was looking at the average step count that people take, it's around 4,700 steps average. Meaning there's a lot of people out there that are taking less than that, which I found pretty interesting. The kind of rule that we've all been following for so long is this, everybody needs to hit 10,000 steps. And I think we know at this point that that is not the case. That is not science backed research that was actually developed in a Chinese or, excuse me, a Japanese pedometer during the Olympics. And it's called a mempo K. And it's a pedometer that they were trying to kind of market. And it literally means 10,000 steps. So that's where that came from. But when we look at the benefits of step counts, for example, when you get to about 5,000 steps, we see that that reduces the symptoms of depression. 5,000 steps. So I have plenty of patients that have been in chronic pain that are taking 2,000 steps a day. And when you're in chronic pain, you have that cyclical. I'm not walking, I'm depressed. I can't get outside. So we work on getting them to that marker of 5,000 steps. That is. I feel like we should be screaming that from the mountaintops, like, pa if you can hit 5,000 steps a day, you are going to feel better mentally. That's a very, very big deal. And I think that number is way more digestible for people than saying, you have to hit 10,000. Me, 10,000 steps a day.

[B]

Well, also, with regards to mental health, people have struggled with their mental health. Like, just getting off the couch is like. Or just moving feels like it's. It's almost impossible for anyone listening who struggled, like, it's such a fe. Like meant. It's just so hard. And so 5,000 is. Feels like, okay. Like, that may even be a reach, but, like, I can try. Or if you tell me I'm inactive and I got to do 10,000, it's like, forget about it. Not going to happen.

[C]

Well, you know, one of the concepts that we talk about in the book is this concept of a microwalk. So it's five minutes, and in five minutes you can get about 500 steps. This is, you know, when you look at the spectrum of walking, I think we can all fit somewhere along the spectrum. Whether you're an ultra athlete and you're over here on the spectrum, or you're someone who's barely getting any steps at all, there's somewhere to fit this into your life. It should. So when I have patients that have 2,000 steps a day and they're sometimes afraid to put their foot on the ground, we start them with a microwalk, five minutes, and they start to. It's a slow kind of implementation into gaining confidence and movement. And I think that's extremely important.

[B]

And how do you think about benefits beyond the 5,000? So mental health, huge at 5,000. If we think about longevity, cardiovascular health, in your view, is that 8,000, 10,000 is a science.

[C]

This is what I always say to people. Anything is better than nothing. So you have to figure out what your baseline is and figure out what your goal is. Anything less than 5,000 steps per day is. Is considered sedentary. So that's kind of our, you know, that's going to be our basement number. Now we talk about. We have three different programs in the book. Some people live as. We just Spoke about well below that 5,000 step count. So that's our initial program is we need to get you to 5,000 steps. Once you get there, you're starting to feel like you're starting to get the benefits of what walking can actually do. 5000 steps, 6000 steps, 7000 steps, 7500. Now you're really in that zone for mental health. Reducing depression symptoms, reducing anxiety, that pace conversation is also very important here. So when you look at the research of how fast we should be walking, they refer to a brisk pace. So I just moved. This is actually a good. I always tell people to try this. I just moved up to the mountains and the speed of a brisk paced walk. If you wanted to take advantage of all the research that says you can reduce multiple different types of cancers by walking for 30 minutes a day at a brisk pace, that's about 130 to 135 steps per minute.

[B]

So it's steps, not heart rate steps. So do you look at heart rate at all?

[C]

I do.

[B]

For intensity? For the purposes of walking?

[C]

Yes. I mean, if you're, if, when you were looking at, if your goal was zone two, for example, you can monitor your heart rate to get into that zone 2 heart rate zone. When you're walking at 135 steps per minute in mountains, up a hill, I would challenge everyone to take a look at your heart rate because you will drift quickly out of that zone two. Kind of that zone two fat burning zone that we're kind of. We want some people to live in, which I find very interesting. People don't think about that from a walking perspective. Walking can be power training.

[B]

So back to step count. Before I jump to intensity. Are there diminishing returns past or is just more better?

[C]

Yeah, great question. And the answer to your question is yes, there is a law of diminishing return. So after about 9,000, 9,500 steps, you see things start to plateau. So I was talking to someone about this yesterday because I have a patient that she came in and she's like, I'm getting 15,000 steps a day, which was great. My next question to her was, are you strength training? And she said, well, no, I don't have time. I'm doing all of these, doing all this walking, trying to get all this walking in. And I said, when we look at fitness, we have to be, you know, across the board. We have to dip our hands into different things. So if we have a law of diminishing return at 9,500 steps, for example, I told her Then this gives you more time to get into a gym and start trend strength training twice a week.

[B]

So on that note, what if that woman were to say, I've got a weighted vest while I walk? What's your take on weighted vests in this?

[C]

You know, we talk about that in the book. It is a very good way to increase, obviously, mass when you're walking. It will make things harder. It will increase your heart rate. There's research on bone mass, so that is an option for people. I have a couple weighted vests and I do use that on some of my walks here. But I still think that it's imperative to have the conversation of strength training. I don't think walking with a weighted vest is a substitute for lifting heavy

[B]

things 100%, but it is a great way if you want to get your heart rate up while walking. That's an effective tool.

[C]

Yes. And you will find that it is. It gets up there pretty quickly. Especially women who are just, you know, they're kind of getting into this and they want to start carrying loads and getting, you know, making things a little bit more difficult. That can get very difficult very fast.

[B]

Especially if you think, look, we're all short on time. If you're trying to get in some zone one and zone two and you don't have time to go for a jog or go running or maybe get into three, but you have time to do these to do a walk, you're going to get there faster wearing a weighted vest. Probably easier to get into zone one, two or three versus if you're walking. Maybe you're zone one. Right.

[C]

You throw on a weighted vest and you get into that 135 step count, you're in zone two. And I. And I would think a lot of people even getting it into zone three.

[B]

How do you track your 135 step count? Do you. Are you counting in your head or is there a wearable you like for that or.

[C]

I use the Garmin.

[B]

Which one? Do you. Do you have a watch?

[C]

Yeah, I have the Venus.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'm just so used to wearing a garment. That's what I've always worn. But I have patients that wear Fitbits. I have patients that don't even have any type of watch and they'll just use their phone.

[B]

I gotta say, I've been eyeing the Garmin. I've been eyeing the Garmin. I've been thinking about it.

[C]

There's a lot of information that you get.

[B]

I love Whoop. But on a personal level, the new Update that they just did. The heart rate is off on walking. Like it can't calibrate. Like, I'm doing fast pace. I even did a walk today, like a fast paced weighted vest walk. And I'm like 85 beats per minute. Like, that's not, that's not real. I live in Miami. Like, that would be 1:30 before. Like you're not, you're not calibrating.

[C]

You know what I heard has been a lot of my patients use the Morpheus.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah. And from what I understand, and I'm actually going to get one because I'm very, I'm very curious because they speak so highly of it that it's extremely accurate. It's very good at looking at recovery. You can really get your heart rate. So when you're out there, you can really monitor that.

[B]

Interesting. My. My primary, like, I love tracking heart rate when I'm doing cardio to get an understanding of like how hard I'm like you, you know, intuitively how hard you're pushing yourself. But I like seeing the heart rate and VO2 max. Cause I never want to go and do a lab and try to kill myself on a treadmill. I'm just not gonna happen. I just want something that's directionally accurate. Am I getting better or worse?

[C]

We've been working with, you know, a lot of elite athletes, and I think when you're on that end of the spectrum and you talk to them about walking, the conversation is, well, why walk when I can run, you know, or why would I? Like, why do I have to fit in walking now that I'm doing all of this other activity? And I have to tell you, that's probably a bigger population that we like to have these conversations with, because the conversation of rest and recovery for these people is extremely important. There has to be that time where you dial down your nervous system and you get into that parasympathetic calming state. And I don't think anything does that, at least for some people, better than walking. I don't. I'm not a good sit still meditator. That just has never been in my kind of DNA. I use walking also as my meditation. And I think that's another way that we can view this when we have. We're like, you know, to the grind. I'm a triathlete and I got to get, you know, a thousand hours a weekend of training. You have to be able to implement this time where you can bring your heart rate down, still be active, and have this lower to moderate Intensity, movement. That again, is physiologically necessary.

[A]

100%. And I think for people who exercise

[B]

a lot, which is amazing, do it. Who are doing extensive cardio. Your body's in this all or nothing phase all the time. Like, I'm going all out, I'm sprinting, I'm running, I'm in the gym, pushing myself so hard and then I'm sitting. There's no, there's no like. And that's hard for the body. That's just hard.

[C]

I was just teaching about this. You know, we have, you have patients or people that will do their one hour, like grind workout in the morning. So it'll be a, an hour spin class where they're like zone five, zone four, whatever they're doing right. It's intense. And then they go to work and they sit for eight to nine hours. And I tell people your one hour of workout in the morning does not negate you, does not give you a free pass from not getting other movement in throughout the day. And that's where I think this. I want to bring back the fact that we have walking accessible to us. Take little breaks throughout the day. Take movement snacks. Like we talk them, talk about it in the book. You know, take five minutes, go on your lunch break. Find time to break up the monotony of sitting all day.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Because we all know, take a step back. Sitting all the time is terrible.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I would argue that being an elite athlete and going all out in the morning or at one point in the day and then sitting all day is probably worse than being a normal person who's just walking and not an athlete and not sitting all day.

[C]

Yeah, it's taking especially you want to talk about. I mean, this is a little sidebar, but think about blood sugar. You know, that's one of my favorite conversations to talk about. When you're staying active throughout the day, there's great research looking at taking a 15 minute walk after you eat. So like breakfast, lunch and dinner, 15 minutes after you eat that, that is equivalent to taking a 45 minute walk. So for those people who are like, I don't have 45 minutes. If you were to take 15 minutes each time you eat, you get those health benefits. And when we talk about what happens after we eat, we have glucose, Right. That's floating around in our bloodstream. We have to get glucose in the bloodstream is normal, but excess glucose in the bloodstream is not. So we have two systems that get the blood glucose out of our blood and into the cells. And that's our Pancreas, and that's movement. So if we sit after we eat, we're only utilizing our pancreas to get the glucose out of our bloodstream. But when you go take a walk, you're now taking advantage of both of those systems.

[B]

And 15 minutes is the minimum effective dose. So after every meal, if we can go for a 15 minute walk, 10

[C]

to 15 minutes, and the sooner, the better the research will tell you. The sooner, sooner the better. You're done. Go.

[B]

Does the window close? If I wait, If I, if I wait a half hour? You know, I had my case in point last night. My mother made bison lasagna, which is a family favorite for the family. Delicious. But like, there's, there's a lot of glucose, there's a lot of, there's a lot of carb happening. And it was a little bit. And I just, you know, had probably a little bit too much. I waited to go for my walk. I probably waited 20 to 30 minutes actually before I went for like a 20 minute walk. My heart rate eventually lowered according to my, my Lupinora data, but it lowered way late. Like there was a spike for sure. So I'm thinking of what you just recommended in terms of not waiting. I'm like, I waited too long.

[C]

The research, it's very interesting. They looked at waiting 10 minutes versus waiting 30 minutes. If you can get into that, you eat and you can get out there within 10 minutes, you will reap more of the benefit.

[B]

Tell me if this would work. What if you're just like, you eat and then you walk around like, let's clean, like, let's get the dishes, let's put them in the dishwasher, let's put away the laundry, let's get ready. Like, if there's mood, it's not like I'm going for a brisk walk in

[A]

the neighborhood, but like, if you're moving

[B]

around your house intentionally and fast with kids, like, is that something?

[C]

It's funny that you actually bring that up because I was thinking about that last night. It was super windy here. It's been really windy here. And after we ate last night, I was like, I'm not going out there. Like, I do not want to go outside right now with my dog and try to walk in this wind. And I was like, I was like, okay, I'm just going to like walk around my house. I'm going up and down my stairs, I'm doing laundry. And I thought to myself, well, you know, it's not exactly, it's. There's a difference between ambient walking and intentional walking. So ambient walking, your steps would be stuff around the house. You know, it's still movement. So again, something is better than nothing. But intentional walking with that faster pace is going to be where we want to live and it's going to trump that ambient walking. But again, I felt pretty good last night because I was like, okay, I could either sit down right now or just keep my body moving for the next 10 to 15 minutes. And I did feel better. I did see my heart rate drop. It's really interesting. If I eat late at night with no activity afterwards, my heart rate that night is, you know, and I'm like, if people just knew to take 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes, especially after dinner, that's such a, I mean that I don't think there's anything easier than that. Like that is a easily accessible thing that we can all do. That I think really has a great impact on our health.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Rula. Mental health is the foundation for overall

[B]

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[A]

Rula connects you with licensed in network therapists, often with an average copay around $15 per session. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com/mindbodygreen to get started. That's R U L A.com mindbodygreen you deserve vental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget. This podcast is sponsored by Advocare. Some days demand more from you. Whether it's a workout, back to back meetings or just staying present with your family. Spark Energy and focus provide stable functional energy. Mix it up before a workout or even mid afternoon when you feel that dip coming on. It's so easy. Shake, sip and within minutes you feel more dialed in. Not wired or jittery, just clear, focused and ready to power through. The drink has a well rounded and balanced formula that goes way beyond just a quick energy boost. You get 120mg of caffeine paired with amino acids and taurine so the energy feels steady, not spiky or jittery. It also includes choline for mental focus and clarity plus B vitamins and L carnitine to support energy metabolism and vitamin C, A and E help support your immune health and everyday wellness diet. There's also zero sugar which makes a real difference on how you feel later on. Right now Spark Energy plus Focus is offering 30% off and free shipping. Go to drinkspark.com and use code mindbodygreen at checkout. That's code [e-mail].

[B]

and we haven't done this, but now I'm thinking we should do it. It's a.

[A]

It's a nice family ritual.

[C]

Yes. Some of the. My favorite research that we did for this book was relationship walking. I have a daughter, as you know, and there was a really cool study looking at talking to teenage daughters and walking and how when you do that, you start to build a different type of relationship and the teenager starts to talk to you a little bit differently. And I have a lot of experience with that. My daughter talks a lot. She talks in her sleep. But we've had some challenges this year and she kind of got a little silent and I was, I'd be like, come on, Addie, let's go. Let's go take a walk. And for the first couple minutes she doesn't say, she didn't say anything. But then all of a sudden she's like talking about everything. Her friends, her school, and Jason. My heart, like, it's some of my favorite moments that I've had with her because it's a very different conversation than me sitting here with her being like, how was your day? And she's like, you know, how are your friends? Fine.

[B]

I get the same thing from our 9 year old. How was your day? How was it? And then all of a sudden it just, it happens and it open. Whether it's walking or stream of consciousness, different emotional development stage, 9 year old from 14 year old. But very much I feel that where if I ask questions, I typically don't get much. And then all of a sudden the floodgates open and, and it's like, all right, maybe let's back up here. I feel like our 9 year old and 14 year old would, would go along.

[C]

But I mean, what a gift. I mean to be. There's research on walking with your spouse, walking with your grandparents, grabbing someone in your neighborhood. I mean, this is community. And I think with everything that's going on in the world, that if we bring this to light, that how important and easy this is for people, that we really start to change lives.

[B]

Walk up a hill wearing a weighted vest with a lot of your friends, get triple the benefit.

[C]

You know, you might not get some conversation in because you'll be huffing and puffing.

[B]

But so on that note, let's talk about terrain. So like, like hills make sense, something. So I live in Miami, very flat paved. Whenever we go to an environment, say Colorado, where you live. And we're like, all right, we're going to go for a hike. I, I don't say we use a struggle, but I have to be so mindful about where I put my feet because of the uneven surfaces where on one hand I'm like, okay, I can't really focus on anything else else because like I'm focusing on like not tripping or sliding or I'm watching my kid. Can we talk?

[A]

Is there a different, same benefit from

[B]

like just powering through on a regular walk? How do you think about terrain when

[C]

you think of going up and up in down a mountain or up and down a hill, it's interesting. I always say, I'd rather go up twice than come down.

[B]

Well, that's. The falls happen when you go down.

[C]

You gotta be in control. Walking is controlled. Falling, you know, it literally is when your foot hits the ground. It's how well we can decelerate our bodies. And that takes strength. So when you're walking on flat terrain, there's a different kind of mechanics that go into that versus walking up a hill, versus walking down a hill. Some people will say, you know, downhill I don't want to do my knee hurts, right. Or my ankle hurts. It requires ranges of motion and strength. Walking up, you can kind of power through that. But I think those different types of terrain are extremely important and we don't want to avoid them. You know, one of the things I look at when I'm training the foot, for example, you know, we train the foot in all different planes. So forward, backward, you see somebody on a, a slant board. And we'll be training them to go into inversion and eversion. And someone who's sprained in their ankle would look at that and be like, I would never put my foot on a slant board and do a calf raise, for example, because it, there's a, a fear when you even look at it. But if you're out walking up a mountain or down a hill, or even out on a flat street and you step off of a curb and your foot goes into an inverted position, it's going to be much better if you've trained to, trained your body to see that, right? So we want to train movement variability. And that's what I think on walking on different terrains does. You're training your system in all different positions. And you know, movement variability is where it's at. You, you do not want to avoid positions. None.

[B]

Just to double click there we go back to the why of walking. Why of mobility. And it's ultimately longevity in that how do we keep on doing the things we want to do? We all know once you become immobile, you know, you become depressed. Like, it just. Things go south for sure. And the variability and the mobility keep you protected from a fall.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you're just walking in a treadmill in, like, giant shoes with 3 inch, you know, we'll talk about that at the end. We've spent so much time on this. You know how much we both love Ultra.

[A]

You're just. That's great.

[B]

You're getting your steps in, but you're not really doing yourself a favor as it relates to optimizing for longevity.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, one of the things I want people to understand when they read this book again is no matter where you are on the spectrum, there's a place for you. When we talk about someone who's sitting below 2,500 steps, our goal is to get them out, get them going. Right. So the conversation is microwalk, five minutes. And we have, you know, education on how to do that. If you have people that are trying to optimize. Right. So you're already getting your steps in, you're feeling pretty good. Then, of course, in the book, we talk about, well, what's your foot doing? Because that's a very big factor. I don't think there's anyone on this planet. If you said to them, what do you want your last decade of life to be? There's not one person that would say, well, I don't want to be walking. That's on everybody's list. Everybody's list is going to look a little bit different, but walking and being able to move is going to be on everyone's list. And if there's a problem with your foot, that is going to be compromised. I see it every single day. So that's why I'm so passionate about bringing these worlds together. How much are you walking? Because the foot is the vehicle for that. So when there's a problem there, you do not want to deter what your step count's gonna be because your foot hurts. So that's when we get into these conversations of, here's what are your foot assessments? And what shoe are you wearing?

[B]

So before we go to shoe, which was one of our favorite subjects to talk about on this podcast, can we talk about walking mechanics?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

How should one feel?

[B]

Can you give us some tips on what we should look for as we assess how we walk?

[C]

First, we're not all supposed to walk the same. Walking is so beautiful to watch. I love watching people walk. It's like a window to their soul. You can tell when someone, like, you know, got fired from their job, just got a promotion. When my daughter walks in from school, I can tell by the way she's walking what kind of day she had. So you can really see emotion when people are walking. And I don't think we want to take that away. We don't want to take, you know, everybody you know should be looking the same. But what we do want to create is efficiency. Because as human beings, we were designed to. To walk for very long periods of time. We are endurance walkers. So when the question arises, well, why can't I walk as far and as long as I want to? Now we have the conversation of efficiency, and I think there's certain things that we want to look for. Walking is all about rotation. So it is literally when it's this beautiful rotation that occurs. So when our body is swinging, we create free energy, which makes it easy for us to walk for long distances. So when I see people that aren't swinging their arms, which you will see, or they're all.

[B]

There's a famous Seinfeld episode where she doesn't walk with her. For those who appreciate Seinfeld, it's really.

[C]

I'll take my phone and I'll put someone on the treadmill, and I'll say, what do you see here? And you don't need to be. You know, you don't need to have a degree in gate mechanics to be able to tell when someone isn't swinging their arms or they'll be swinging one arm. So that's kind of a very easy cue. I'll just say, hey, if you're. If you have walking poles, too, go outside and use your poles. Get your body moving. You should see rotation. The other one very easy cue is walk taller. You want to be tall when you walk. When you start sinking into your body, you actually change your stride lengths, and you make it harder on yourself. You know, the example I'll give to people is if you take your middle finger and you extend it and you let it go. This is. I'm stretching my tissue, and this is coming up for free. I'm not activating my finger flexors to lift my finger. So when we're walking and we stretch our fascia and we have ranges of motion that get us into position, we get that free energy, we get that free return in walking taller can create that. The other cue that's very easy is walk softer. You. Everybody has that relative or someone in their house where it's like you can hear them coming from a mile away. Right. It sounds like an elephant. When someone has that heavy foot strike, the easiest cue is just walk softer. When we're walking, by the way, we should be grazing the heel. So a walking gait is very different than a running gait. So if I said to you, Jason, I want you to graze your heel, are you going to land all the way out in front of you and land hot and heavy on your heel? No. You're going to bring it close to your center of mass. Your heel is going to be grazed close to your center of mass because it's soft. And then when the heel feels the ground, it initiates this unlocking of the foot pronation. That is a start of how we absorb shock. It's a beautiful thing that happens. So when you have a big old 55 millimeter cushion underneath your heel all the time, do you think you can feel how hot and heavy you're landing? No. So regardless of what type of shoe you're in now, I always tell people, take your shoe off five minutes, that's all I'm asking for. And just walk around your house. Because if you're a hot and heavy striker, I guarantee you, you will not walk like that with your shoe off, because it would hurt. All these receptors in the heel would tell your brain, hey, you're walking too, too heavy. Ease up a little bit.

[B]

So as a follow up before we segue to footwear, if I'm trying to assess that, we can definitely assess by feeling, but what can we make from where our shoes wear? Like looking at the bottom of the sole, like, this is where the wear is. Like what, what should that look like? How, how the shoes are wearing our foot?

[C]

If you were to look at the pattern of your foot when you walk, you want to see wear pattern on the outside of the heel. So right as the heel were to strike.

[B]

So that's where the wear and tear should be. In the bottom of your sneaker.

[C]

Yes. So on the outside of the heel and then the foot rolls and then you should see wear go across the ball of the foot and into the big toe. It's this we call it in the book, we teach people how to roll the earth away. It's you're grazing your heel, your foot unlocks. And then it's almost like you're rolling the earth behind you. And it's beautiful and it's efficient and it's soft.

[B]

So callous. Same situation, callus should probably be in the outside of the heel and then probably the ball of the foot.

[C]

Yes. I just was talking to someone about this the other day. I'm like, when you go get your pedicure, please tell them not to shave off all your calluses. They're there for a reason.

[A]

Keep them. Keep the calluses.

[C]

Keep them. I'm a callous keeper. Did I just say that? It's weird. You know, it gets weird when you talk about feet. No, but seriously, it's a protection, you know, mechanism. When I look at someone's foot and their feet look like baby skin. Like, that foot has never touched the ground. You got to get your foot on the ground. It's resilient. You create a resilient foot, you know, that strong resiliency and that will really carry, carry you through life for real.

[B]

It's cute in that both of our girls, I have a lot of calluses specifically in my hands from lifting and rowing, and they think it's so cool. And they're like, when can we get calluses? And I'm like, I, I, I hope you always feel that way. I'm like. And I look at their feet and they're just like, beautiful baby. Well, not my, my nine year old's five foot two, but at a size nine shoe, nine and a half. But I'm like, you have this beautiful

[A]

feet with no calluses.

[C]

It's like if we looked at the foot, like we look at everywhere else in our body. Like, I'm also rowing a lot right now. I'm training for a 10k on a rower and I've developed calluses on my, like, some pretty gnarly calluses on my hands. I would never, you would never be like, I gotta get rid of these calluses. You would be in a lot of pain. It's same thing at the foot. You don't want to get rid of those. They're there for protection.

[B]

Let's talk. We, we've talked about footwear extensively on the show with you, but I'd be remiss not to mention it at all. So, okay, for those who have been under a rock and have not listened to our previous episodes where we've talked about footwear and our, our shared love for, for Ultra. What advice do you have for someone who's like, who's going to take a look at their footwear? What should they look for Beyond Ultra, who we both love?

[C]

Kind of rule of thumb for me is understanding this is, I'm not. We don't. You don't have to go deep into understanding anatomy, but understanding that the widest part of your foot should be your toes. Well, if you were to look down at your foot, not the ball of the foot, the toes. So with that being said, your footwear should match what your anatomy of your foot should be. So my non negotiable is a wide toe box shoe, which is very different than a wide shoe. If we want to take this back into walking, this is why a lot of this book is obviously about foot and footwear and foot strength. When I'm walking, my big toe is bigger and stronger than my lesser toes because when I go to roll through my gate and I'm pushing through the ball of my foot, the majority of my weight should be on the first and second toes. That's where I'm pushing off. And by the way, a lot of your. You have increased body weight going through that foot. Okay. At push off. That's why most foot injuries occur at the forefoot, because people's forefoot is squished together.

[B]

So just on that note, just there was a. In this day and age, I have to question if it's real, but I think it is. There was a viral photo of LeBron James Foote and his like pinky toe was like so rolled up. And he is one of the all time greatest athletes. But it's hard not to think about assuming that is real, which I think it is. Probably could have avoided some injuries if that pinky toe and, and it's because of the narrow toe box wasn't rolled up. Like there was no room for that pinky toe. He's got wide feet. What, what's your take on that?

[C]

That like, especially in my industry, like LeBron James feet are always talked about. It's like, have you seen LeBron James feet? And I'm like, yes, but you're not LeBron James number one. But there was also a video that went around with him training barefoot.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So, you know, the word is getting out there of how important it is. And I think especially because I work with a lot of these professional athletes. And one thing we need to understand, people are getting on board with, we need to be strong. We need to be powerful. Athletes are becoming bigger and stronger human beings. They're getting faster. You cannot build this big fast body on feet that cannot handle that load. Because when you are walking, you put two to three times your body weight through your foot. When you are running, those numbers jump up, jump up to eight. 11 times your body weight through your foot. So you have to train your foot below the knee, your foot and ankle, just as much as you are training the rest of your body. Or else, like my good friend Jade Cherry always says, you are going to build a jet engine on a paper airplane, and that is not going to go well for you.

[B]

That's a great line. On that note, I'm seeing a lot more people in the gym, barefoot or not barefoot, wearing socks, but no, no shoes.

[C]

I love this conversation because we have to have the right tool for the job. So I'm not saying that people need to be barefoot and in minimal footwear all the time. There is a time and a place when you are strength training, though. When you're in the gym, you are not putting repetitive steps for miles and miles. You're standing on the ground, you're trying to lift heavy things. Let me ask you a question. If you were to deadlift 300 pounds or whatever your deadlift is, would you want to be standing on a pillow or would you want your foot to be solid on the ground?

[B]

Right.

[C]

You lose sensory acuity. Your foot, when you put that foot on the ground and you can feel the ground is gathering sensory information to stabilize your body. It's going to help you position your knee better. It's going to help you position your hip better and your low back. So when I see people in the gym and they're like, I, I don't want to lift heavy because it's going to hurt my back, and they're doing it on a very cushioned shoe, I'm like, you're right. Because you're compromising the information. This sensory information that you could be getting from your feet to help stabilize your lower body. So especially in the gym, that is when that foot needs to feel the ground. And the other question I'll get, when will be, well, what if when I squat, I need lifters or I need to be in a shoe that has a higher heel to toe drop? Again, we're not all Olympic lifters. The majority of us are recreational lifters. So if I was an Olympic lifter and I'm putting up hundreds of pounds, then yes, having that type of stability from the ground up might be warranted. But if you can't squat with your heel on the ground, I would challenge you to ask yourself why that is. Is it because you have a lack of ankle dorsiflexion? Is it because you have a lack of core or proximal stability that when you get down so far, you would feel like you'd fall over and so Figuring out the why behind that, I think is also very important because we should, most of us as recreational lifters be, be able to lift weights with our foot on the ground.

[B]

So in closing, I'm curious. In researching and writing this book Walk, which I encourage everyone to go pick up wherever books are sold, what did you change?

[C]

Personally, I changed. One of the things I've learned through writing this book and researching this book is I thought I walked a lot. I really did. I mean, I was like, I'm active. And what I had found that I was doing, what a lot of my patients do, is I would work out in the morning and then I would go to work and I'm in my clinic all day and I would think that, like, I'm active because I'm not ever sitting. And then at the end of the day I would look and I'd be like, man, Courtney, you're like 5,000 steps today. And that's not where I mean I want to live. My kind of range for myself is about 7,500 to 9,000 steps a day. So it was a very good kind of eye opening experience for me that at the end of the day I could be like, hey, you're at 5,000 steps, 10 minutes. A 10 minute walk will grab you about a thousand steps, give or take. So it was a cool way for me to be like, hey, just go walk for 10 minutes. And what I found was I was grabbing that after dinner so I was feeling better. It was also a good way for me to, you know, grab, to get into that parasympathetic state, which I know, me personally, I need to find more of. I run hot.

[B]

I think many of us do. And look, just to close on that point, one of the biggest takeaways here, you're short on time, try to squeeze it in after meals, double the benefits. Five, ten minutes. Here, this idea of walking snacks, like, get five minutes in here, get ten minutes in there. It doesn't have to be this epic walk.

[C]

Yes, yes, it doesn't. That's what's. So I think the biggest take home with all of this is it doesn't have to be this. I have to hit 10,000 steps and I need to go walk for an hour. Even when I'm home working and I have all these zoom calls, I'm like, I'm going for 10 minutes. And every time I do that, my mind is. I feel like I'm more calm, I can think better, I'm not getting anxious. And that has really been such a huge help for me.

[B]

Love the book. Courtney, always a pleasure. Thank you for all that you do.

[C]

Thank you so much.