← The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
Breaking the Mold in Branding with Chloé Nwangwu
00:40:21
Ever feel like your brand is just blending into the background? Or like you’re stuck under some kind of invisibility cloak (but not the cool kind from Harry Potter)? Well, good news—Chloé Nwangwu is here to help you break out of that! In this...
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- [00:01]
A
Do you ever feel like your brand is just another face in the crowd? Well, today I have a super special guest on the podcast to talk about how branding and marketing are joining forces. And, and, and, and the best part, why we are ditching the outdated label of underrepresented. That's the reason I wanted to talk with Chloe Wangu on the podcast today. But first, hi, welcome. If this is your first time, we are the Mindful Marketing Podcast. This is episode number 327 and I'm all about helping you scroll less and create more impact with the work that you do. And today's guest, Chloe Wangu, welcome to the show.
- [00:40]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [00:42]
A
I'm very excited to talk with you. When I saw this topic come across my desk, so to speak, I was like, oh, yes, we need to talk about this, but I want to talk a little bit about your background first. How did you get into branding and marketing?
- [00:58]
B
Yeah, so this is a funny story. I will try to keep it brief because I didn't go to school for marketing or branding or business or any of this. I was trained in international conflict resolution and mediation. So essentially I was trained to facilitate peace negotiations in the context of civil war.
- [01:19]
A
So that's just a light, light, steady topic.
- [01:24]
B
Totally light, totally light. So basically social psychology and super high stakes situation. And I got into the work that I do now because I noticed that folks who should have been at the negotiating table in order for those negotiations to actually be sustainable and last past five or 10 years, some of these folks weren't even getting in the door. And from a practitioner standpoint, that was a problem, especially since my speciality was on using what we know about the human mind and human relationships and the ways those things interact, using what we know about those things to make these settlements more likely to happen and more likely to last.
- [02:13]
C
Right.
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B
That was my focus. And so the fact that people who really should have been in these rooms weren't, that was a problem for me. So I started investigating and looking into, okay, why is this happening? Even in a place like, you know, at the UN where everyone is very educated and has the best intentions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, how can this sort of thing still be happening and how can we fix it? And the realization that I came to at the end of the day was brands. Brands is how we fix it. That every nation state that I have ever worked with, that I have ever liaised with, they all have brands, and those brands teach others how to treat you. So there are certain reasons that we don't make certain moves with, like, Germany or France or the U.S. right. Because their brands have informed us, have taught us how they'll respond. And so what I learned from that time of research and study and investigation was that I could, and others could use brands for the purpose of getting folks in the door.
- [03:19]
C
Right.
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B
To teach others how to treat the folks that they'd been overlooking before. So that's how I got into this work.
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A
Oh, that is so fascinating. So you studied this, like, liaison? You know, we're. We're helping people communicate. We're studying human psychology. When did you start your business out of all of that?
- [03:39]
B
Yeah. So my business officially started. I want to say I'm probably in year seven right now. And so I'll say that my business had already sort of existed in some form by the time this research began. But at the time, it wasn't really brand focused. Right. Like, that's. That's not what the focus was because that, you know, I hadn't come to that answer. I was working on the civil war in Yemen. And so I will say this is probably. I want to say this was 2019. 2020. I was a very junior member of this team, so I cannot stress how junior a member I was on this team. And we were brought in by an ethnic minority in Yemen who was not yet a part of the peace process. And our job was to make them part of the peace process. Right. And they were a pretty sizable chunk of the population, so the fact that they weren't was a problem. Right. Again, from an efficacy standpoint. And it was really in the process of making this happen. And yes, spoiler alert, they did end up becoming part of the peace process. But it was as we were making that happen that my business really took that turn and said, oh, it's brands, and we need to be looking at them from a scientific perspective. That's what's going on. It was during that period in time.
- [05:05]
A
Yeah. Okay. That's so fascinating. And I know one of the questions that often comes up when we start talking about branding is how is that different from marketing? Like, what are the key differences between branding and marketing?
- [05:18]
C
Yeah.
- [05:18]
B
Yeah. So what I would say is that marketing is when you are leveraging memorable assets to tell people about what you do, and then it's also the process of refreshing people's memories of that. Right. That's what I would consider marketing to be. Branding is the development of those memorable assets. And I realize as I say this now, that might actually help to back things up and actually give the definition of what a brand is. And I know that this seems like it would be super elementary and also super annoying because there are a million definitions of what a brand is.
- [05:58]
C
Right.
- [05:59]
B
But from a scientific perspective, I think it's interesting to look at this. A brand is simply a system of ideas that influences the behavior of other people.
- [06:11]
A
Okay.
- [06:12]
B
Said another way, it's a kind of influential real estate in someone's head. And so when we are talking about branding, right, we want to understand that in order for a brand, or really anything, but in order for this system of ideas to be influential, to influence behavior, at the very minimum, it has to be memorable. It has to have been remembered at some point in time.
- [06:42]
C
Right.
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B
And that's where these memorable assets come in, because they serve as sort of memory anchors. Every time you see or hear or interact with a brand's branding or their memorable assets, you are. If the branding is doing its job, you are reminded of that system of ideas.
- [07:01]
C
Right?
- [07:03]
B
So that's. That's what. That's what the interplay there is. And I'd say it's a bonus brand strategy pen in that situation. Brand strategy is sort of the development of that system of ideas that those assets refer to.
- [07:20]
A
Oh, okay. That's so interesting. So for those listening, y'all know, I've gone through the rebranding process, and I feel like you really nailed down that definition of it, because there's so much sculpted into this rebrand that really is, like, me ideating on how I want to be perceived and how I assume other people will perceive me based on, you know, visual cues, my stories that I tell, the words that I use. Even some of, like, you know, I tend to use, like, a lot of Internet culture references. I literally will say the word hashtag sometimes when I'm like, that's hashtag awesome. You know, things like that where it's like, it's the whole vibe that I've packaged up. And so just being, like, really clear on that has been, like, it's a painful process to go through, honestly. Like, I never want to do it again.
- [08:13]
B
Yeah, it absolutely can be. It absolutely can be. And that's. I mean, and I'm really glad that you brought up the idea of perception.
- [08:21]
C
Right.
- [08:22]
B
Because that's sort of the other side of brand strategy, I would say, right, that you are trying to develop a plan for bridging the gap between that system of ideas and the stakeholders that exist in the ecosystem around you.
- [08:37]
C
Right.
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B
And so in order to do that, yeah, you're absolutely Leveraging, influencing, shaping perception, the impressions that folks have of you, because that's going to be required. That's going to be the foundation, the soil for the influence that that system of ideas needs to have in order to be effective.
- [08:57]
A
Yeah. Okay. So do you have an example of, like, a really strong brand and what that looks like?
- [09:04]
B
Yeah. Okay. There's so many examples that I can give. The ones that came to mind immediately, the ones that are making me laugh right now are Jake from State Farm.
- [09:13]
A
Okay. Yep.
- [09:16]
B
And the Doritos logo. Now, I know that that's kind of unusual. Most folks would be like, not Beyonce, not blah, blah, blah. Okay, work with me. Give me some rope. Okay. So Jake from State Farm, for those who are unfamiliar, is this guy who ostensibly is an agent at Steak Farm.
- [09:37]
C
Right.
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B
And he shows up in all of their commercials, and he's been a part of their branding for over a decade. At this point, there was an origin story. There was, like a literal baton toss to, you know, another actor who's playing Jake from State Farm. And now we have, like, the younger, cuter, more racially ambiguous guy who's currently playing Jake from State Farm. Okay, so, like, someone knew what they were doing. Right. The first Jake from State Farm commercial was so memorable, was so well done, that goodness, that people still associate it with State Farm. And that's. Remember when I mentioned that a brand's branding serves as a mental anchor?
- [10:25]
C
Right.
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B
Any time someone sees your branding, you know that that branding is doing a good job if they immediately think of your brand.
- [10:36]
A
Yeah.
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B
Jake from State Farm is one of those. Right. I remember that I was watching the review of a movie that I would never watch, and I happened to see the actor who plays Jake from State Farm in, like, one of the screen captures. And I said out loud, apropos of nothing to a room of strangers, is that Jake from State Farm, like, actually said this out loud?
- [10:59]
C
Right.
- [11:00]
B
And that's the reaction that you want people to have when they see your various branding assets.
- [11:04]
C
Right.
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B
That's a really, really strong piece of branding.
- [11:10]
C
Right?
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B
Yeah. The Doritos logo. We could talk about that another time. Does the same job, did the same thing.
- [11:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. All of these examples are so memorable, I think. About the flow lady. Yes, exactly.
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B
From Progressive.
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A
From progressive.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or even the duck. Or, like, Aflac. Like.
- [11:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [11:30]
A
Like, why do we know all of these things is because it's the anchor. I love that you said the word anchor. So when I'm thinking about anchors, what are some examples of branding anchors? Like, what Are, like. Especially when I think about the people who are listening to this podcast, you know, service providers, course creators, marketers. Like, what are the anchors that we need to think about incorporating into our brand?
- [11:51]
B
Yeah. So honestly, the answer I'm about to give is going to suck. And I'm sorry, it depends. It really does depend. But a good model that you can use to sort of think this through are our senses, right? You want to have at least one set of assets that deal with what we can see.
- [12:12]
C
Right.
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B
And folks, when folks are thinking about branding, they're usually thinking, oh, a logo and a color palette and typeface and, like, all of these things, right? That's one modality. That's one modality of branding.
- [12:24]
C
Right.
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B
Then you want to think about stuff that we can hear.
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C
Right.
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B
Sometimes folks do that with taglines and, like, a good neighbor. Right. Jingles. Right. Things like that.
- [12:35]
C
Right.
- [12:37]
B
Folks who are going really deeply into this, then can look into things that we can smell.
- [12:42]
C
Right.
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B
Especially if you have a physical location. Things that we can touch and feel when you send the package.
- [12:49]
C
Right.
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B
Like, how does the box feel? How does the product, you know, like, things like that.
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C
Right.
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B
So if you look at our different sensory modalities and you can come up with reasonable anchors, Right. Memory anchors for at least two, but, like, stretch to do three of them, then you're in pretty good shape.
- [13:10]
A
Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. I love that. One of the things that always comes up, too, when I think about branding is this concept of creating a storyline. And you mentioned this with the Jake character, how there's an origin story and there's a passing of baton. So when we're thinking about creating or building stories in our marketing, what are some of the things we should ask ourselves as we're trying to decide if this is a story that lends to branding or are we just kind of having fun?
- [13:38]
B
Yeah, that's a really good question. So the thing about stories is that they are a tool. They're a tool that. Well, as. As far as we know so far with the science, I have to, like, add all of the possible caveats, Right. Like, given what we currently know about the human brain, many of us are predisposed to processing things as stories, right? This is why they're used so often. This is why they're such a useful tool.
- [14:09]
C
Right.
- [14:09]
B
At the end of the day, we are in the business of behavior change, right? No matter who we are, whether or not that's getting someone to go from not buying from us to buying from us voting to not voting or vice Versa, right? Whatever it happens to be, we're in the business of behavior change. What we want to be able to do is to motivate that behavior change. And so if the storytelling that you are doing, beat for beat for beat, is contributing to and pushing forward motivationally the various stakeholders that surround your brand, then that's something that you want to do. Then you know that you're doing a good job, then you know that you should be storytelling and you're not just having fun. And I know that that's a bit abstract, but it honestly really does depend on the kind of brand that we're talking about and what it is they're trying to accomplish. I'll give a small concrete example to help here. Something that a lot of folks will do is they will develop what are called sort of category entry points, right? And a category entry point is essentially a scenario within which someone might consider using or leveraging your brand.
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C
Right?
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B
And this is why I said that we're in the business of behavior change, right? Because in order to change someone's behavior, like I said before, we've got to be memorable. And the reason for that is because when someone sits down to make a decision, what they're actually doing is they're pulling up their shortlist of candidates and saying, okay, which seems like the best, and they're picking one and then they're going with it.
- [15:52]
C
Right?
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B
And so you want your storytelling to support that process. That's where category entry points come in. So if you're going to try and leverage storytelling, I would suggest starting there, starting with a category entry point. What is a scenario within which someone might leverage your brand, tell a story from that particular frame of reference, and make sure that you are, as I said, beat for beat for beat, managing and leveraging and guiding their motivations towards the behavior change you're trying to have happen. So that's what I will say on that. It's a very wide, complicated topic, but yeah, I hope that helps.
- [16:37]
A
No, it's super fascinating. And I think the words that we use are so important to help with that decision making process. And one of the words you used when you, when we were kind of like plotting out this episode is this term underrepresented. And I do see it a lot. That term and the term, gosh, I can't think of the other one that I'm thinking of right now. Underrepresented is the main one. And so when I think about the term underrepresented, you talk about moving away from this idea. Can you Talk to us a little bit more about why you're on this mission.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. So honestly, it is because underrepresentation and a lot of the other language that we use to discuss that phenomenon are actually just symptoms. Right. And I'll take you back to the example that I brought up with the civil war in Yemen.
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C
Right.
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B
And the folks who weren't even getting in the door.
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C
Right?
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B
Yeah. They were an underrepresented ethnic minority.
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C
Right.
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B
But the fact that they were underrepresented was not why they weren't getting through the door. It was just a symptom of their not getting through the door.
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C
Right.
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B
And when we use the term underrepresented, what that does is a lot of things, but it. It one pretends that this is just a scenario that happened to be the case.
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C
Right.
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B
I don't know how it happened to be the case that folks became underrepresented, but it just so happens to be right that there's no active doer, there's no active agent, and we're talking about underrepresentation. And then on top of that, it puts the impetus on the folks who are underrepresented to fix the problem.
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C
Right?
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B
Yeah. So underrepresented has a lot of issues with it and actually contributes a lot of harm. And for folks who are interested in reading more about this, I do have an article in the Harvard Business Review that I wrote about it, and I can sort of include that in the resource page that will be linked, I'm sure, in the show notes. And so that's. That's why I feel like we need to move away from that term in terms that are like it. And I know I'm jumping in. Jump in, jumping the. Insert appropriate metaphor here, but that's why I like the term under recognized instead.
- [19:01]
A
Ah, okay. That, that, yeah, that was going to be. My next question is, you know, if we're not saying underrepresented under recognized is a good replacement. And I think too, under recognized, when I hear that, it does feel like it could be situational as well. So talk to me more about using the term under recognized instead of underrepresented.
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B
Yeah. So one of the things that I love about the term under recognized is that it allows us to say, yep, there's an active agent here.
- [19:34]
C
Right.
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B
There is someone doing the under recognizing.
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C
Right.
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B
And that also means that the folks with the power to actually shift the situation are now in the position to do so.
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C
Right.
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B
Because they're like, oh, I'm under recognizing someone. So now my behavior needs to change. So that's one thing I love about it, right? That it puts the impetus where it needs to be. It also gets us to focus on behaviors rather than, you know, passive scenarios. And on top of that, it points to this reality which is really at the center of all the work that I do. And the reality is this, that our attention is not neutral. We have been, all of us have been conditioned to overlook and underappreciate the contributions and ideas of certain kinds of people, right? And from a mechanical standpoint, what that means is that our attention is allocated in discriminatory ways as the status quo. And so often what that looks like is certain kinds of people, like that ethnic minority in Yemen or, you know, folks like you and me, right? It'll almost be like you have an invisibility cloak on and like, not in the fun way, right? Sometimes you want an invisibility cloak, right? So that you can go off and do all sorts of fun stuff, but not when you're trying to run a business, right? Not when you're trying to change the world. Not when there's a civil war going on and the fate of your nation is in the balance and under recognition is happening everywhere all at once in all of the scenarios, big and small.
- [21:21]
A
I find this conversation fascinating because on one hand it's a little bit of a relief to be like, oh, right. There are instances where, you know, take for example, people of color, black and brown skin can feel under recognized. Right? But on the other hand, I go, well, what's a gal to do about it? You know, like, what do we do with this newfound information?
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's my life's work. Like, hi, right?
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A
Casually say it all in the next 10 minutes, you know, Md it's fine, I got it.
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B
We could do this. So honestly. Oh boy. I would say you want to tackle under recognition and it's causes and its costs in a few ways. And under. There are sort of two sides to the under recognition coin, right? There is the cause of under recognition. I call these visibility biases. And these are the cognitive biases that allocate our attention in discriminatory ways, right? And so part of what we've got to do is neutralize those, address those, right? And often what that looks like when I am working with clients is first, we've got to make sure that your platform is not just memorable, but it's also influential, right? It's based on motivation. And when I talk about your platform, all that I mean by that is your premise about how the world can and should be different. And your positioning, which is just what makes your premise distinct.
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C
Right.
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B
So take that and all your memorable assets together. And that's your platform. We've got to make sure that those things are motivationally based so they can be influential. That's the first thing. And then the second thing I would say, and this sort of gets into the other side of the under recognition coin. The second thing that I would say is then that we've got to focus on what I call your circle of recognition.
- [23:36]
C
Right.
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B
And that's just fancy talk for your network.
- [23:38]
C
Sure, Right.
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B
But it's your network structured around a very specific behavior, namely recognition and understanding that your network can be designed towards certain behavioral outcomes. Literally designed. I mean that in a literal sense the stakeholders can be selected and designed into it. The structure of their relationships with each other can be designed.
- [24:02]
C
Right.
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B
Like the actual geometric shape of your network contributes to the outcomes that you're getting right now. There are whole scientific traditions, network science being one of them, that are dedicated to this.
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A
Right.
- [24:16]
B
And this is how I address that. So that's sort of the second thing. Then I'll pause here to talk about the other side of the under recognition coin, which is what it costs to be under recognized. I call that the invisibility tax. And the invisibility tax, it's the extra bit of time, energy, money, resources, frankly, that are, I'll be honest, extorted from under recognized folks in order for them to be visible at all, and especially for them to be as visible as their peers who enjoy more environmental protections, let's say. And we need to neutralize those as well, because the invisibility tax is what is actually putting that gap between folks who are under recognized and folks who are leveraging the same tactics and strategies and tools and blah, blah, blah, but are leagues ahead. Right. The invisibility tax is at the crux of why. And so we address the invisibility tax again by doing those first two things that I mentioned, but then adding a third element. And that third element, I call it your attention management system.
- [25:30]
C
Right.
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B
We've got to make sure that all of the stakeholders that are required for your success that we are able to gain, maintain and translate their attention predictably, understanding that that's going to look different depending on which stakeholder we are talking about and the motivations that they hold. And so your attention management system A has to exist and B needs to be multifaceted and able to like, maintain that multitude. So, yeah, that's in a nutshell, My life's work. And, yeah, that's.
- [26:12]
A
I mean, this is like my brain is, like spinning in a million different directions. And one of the things that always comes up for me is probably something that's just deeply personal. I have no idea if I'm projecting or not. Maybe you could tell me, but sometimes I find in this. So if I'm going to use your language, too, in this, the network part of my tax that I have to pay to get ahead feels a little bit like I am the token one.
- [26:42]
C
Oh, girl.
- [26:43]
B
Yes.
- [26:43]
A
And I don't know if this is just me. This is just me. I just sometimes feel like, oh, I'm the only. Got it. I know my role here. What do I like? I don't know how to do that. I usually look at those situations as an opportunity and just take it and run with it. But there's still that piece in the back of my mind where I'm like, you know, do I belong here? Should I be in this room? If my skin were a different color, would I even be considered? What's. What's a gal to do about that?
- [27:11]
C
Yeah.
- [27:11]
B
Yeah. So what I will say to this is your instinct is 1000% correct. That is actually, in fact, one of the facets of the invisibility tax. It's the not only being like an only and a token.
- [27:25]
C
Right.
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B
But there's this sort of validation paradox, which is what I've taken to calling it. Where you are in this space, you are made very visible, but then you're not actually given the support or structural things that you need in order to execute on the very visible role that you've suddenly been given. Right. And so often this looks like someone who is very visible, but they don't have a lot of power to change things or open the door behind them or, you know, what have you. And then people sort of wink knowingly if that person doesn't remain in that space.
- [28:04]
C
Right.
- [28:05]
B
And honestly, this brings me back to your circle of recognition. Right. You're depending on this opportunity that you have gotten.
- [28:18]
C
Right.
- [28:18]
B
Do you know who your advocates are in that room? Do you have any advocates in that room? Do you know who your mediators are?
- [28:27]
C
Right.
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B
The folks who are directly connecting you to opportunities. Did you know the gatekeeper on your way in?
- [28:35]
C
Right.
- [28:35]
B
The person who's standing between you and that particular opportunity that you now have.
- [28:40]
C
Right.
- [28:40]
B
An awareness of these stakeholders and their motivations, and furthermore, a relationship with those folks allows you to neutralize sometimes and circumnavigate in other cases. Facets of the invisibility tax.
- [28:57]
C
Right.
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B
Because when you have that understanding, when you have that knowledge.
- [29:01]
C
Right.
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B
When you have those relationships, then you're able to say, hey, I'm kind of the only person in here to that one advocate who might be better positioned to say something about it than you are.
- [29:14]
C
Right.
- [29:14]
B
Or, hey, I think that this room might benefit from more perspectives like this. You might say to that gatekeeper who was standing between you and this opportunity to begin with.
- [29:25]
C
Right.
- [29:26]
B
So it all, it all depends. But that circle of recognition is going to be really key in that scenario. Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:32]
A
Okay. So I'm curious about the, the flip side of that. So let's say there is an advocate or a gatekeeper in this kind of circle of influence, and they're, you know, on their own journey to recognize those who previously have gone under recognized. How do they go about it without, you know, creating this feeling of tokenism or feeling superficial in the ways that they're making their decisions?
- [30:01]
B
Yeah. So there are a couple of things here. So what I'll do is I'll speak about this generally while also narrowing the scope and talking about this in a branding and marketing context as well. So I'll sort of like feed two birds with one scone, let's say. And so what I, what I tend to suggest to folks who are like, oh, okay, under recognition is a thing. Got it. And I can contribute to making it less of a thing. Amazing. How do I do that?
- [30:30]
C
Right.
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B
In the branding and marketing context, one of the first things I tell people is stop using ideal client avatars.
- [30:36]
A
I'm pro this. I am very pro this. Yeah.
- [30:41]
B
And, and so what I'm. What I mean by this and like, why this connects more largely to what we're talking about is because an ideal client avatar is just us as folks who are in this particular industry. It's just us segmenting the world demographically and psychographically. Right. So for those who are unfamiliar, demographics are like census level data, age, gender, race, that sort of thing. Psychographics are like hobbies, preferences, affiliations. Right. So what ideal client avatars do is they segment the world into those groups and then they invite us to make assumptions about human beings based off of those factors.
- [31:21]
C
Right.
- [31:22]
B
Which is just, you know, not what we want to do at all. But especially if we're thinking about saying like, hey, let's stop under recognizing certain kinds of people and experiences.
- [31:37]
C
Right.
- [31:38]
B
Because it's those very assumptions that lead to the under recognition that we're talking about in the first place. And so Ideal client avatars, like, from a marketing and branding perspective, they reinforce under recognition. But even just from like, a conceptual standpoint, they are problematic in that they reinforce as well. So that's what I would say. And for those who I'm sure are listening to this and they're like, hey, wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right? Like, what do you mean? How are we supposed to get anything done that?
- [32:12]
A
Right.
- [32:12]
B
Like, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it. Riddle me this, riddle me this. If we are in the business of behavior change and we are trying to change people's behavior, then why are we relying on information that doesn't tell us really anything about what would motivate that behavior change in the first place?
- [32:32]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [32:33]
B
Because someone's race isn't going to tell me what's going to motivate their behavior change. I can make some assumptions. Someone's age isn't going to tell me what's going to motivate their behavior change. I can make some assumptions, though. Someone's preference of Hulu over Netflix is not going to tell me. The fact that they really like grapefruit seltzer is not going to tell me what's going to motivate their behavior change. And that's even if I'm selling grapefruit seltzer.
- [33:00]
A
Yeah, right.
- [33:00]
B
Like, yeah, I know that they like grapefruit seltzer, but that's not going to tell me what's going to get them to buy more of that if that's the behavior change I'm trying to make happen.
- [33:10]
C
Right.
- [33:11]
B
So on top of, like, reinforcing these things that we're like, oh, we maybe don't want that to happen anymore, they're also not as useful as we're making them out to be. And they're inviting us to make some pretty dangerous leaps in logic to accomplish our work. How soapboxy do we want me to get?
- [33:33]
A
Like, get on the soapbox? Because, listen, so one of. I'll give an example of this. The things I've been very adamant in my business since the beginning, 10 years in business, is that I don't use gendered language to talk about my people because I don't like, a lot of people assume things. They go, oh, you work with only women, or whatever the case may be. And that's not the case at all. And I'm very, very intentional about this in my business because I think it's exclusionary, actually, to a lot of the folks that I work with, all sorts of genders non binary folks, men, you know, like, I'm not. I very intentional at not excluding that. And so when I build my. When I'm working on my branding, especially right now, I'm in a pivot. It's more about the outcomes that they're seeking.
- [34:27]
B
Thank you.
- [34:27]
A
Than who they are as a person. And who they are as a person. I still use examples. Like, an example would be, I work with people who have small children, for instance, that the time that they have available is different. I work with people who have chronic illness. The time that they have is different. So, like, I use those examples to, like, call in my people. But I'm not saying I only work with moms, for instance. That's exactly. That's not my only group of people that I work.
- [34:53]
B
Yes, exactly. And so you are practicing actually what I tell other people to do.
- [34:58]
C
Right. Yay.
- [34:59]
A
Okay.
- [34:59]
B
I'm doing it. You're doing it. No, you're doing it. This is amazing.
- [35:02]
C
Right.
- [35:02]
B
At the end of the day, what is important is their motivation.
- [35:07]
C
Right.
- [35:08]
B
The thing that would motivate them to change their behavior.
- [35:10]
C
Right.
- [35:10]
B
And yes, you're correct. It is that outcome that they're looking for. It is that aspiration that they are reaching for.
- [35:16]
C
Right.
- [35:17]
B
And then it is the motivational drivers in their environment that shape those motivations. Right. So you're absolutely correct. Right. Someone might consider the fact that, you know, this person has a chronic illness. They might be like, that's a psychographic. You know what? Sure, I'm fine with it. Because it's the right kind of psychographic. Because what that tells you is that their time and that their energy is probably at a premium. And that is a motivational driver.
- [35:44]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
B
Okay.
- [35:46]
A
Not a grapefruit seltzer.
- [35:47]
B
Not grapefruit seltzer, for the love of God. Right. And any, honestly, any, Any segmentation that does not allow me and this adorable fluffy giant baby Yoda to be in the same group is a problem. It is a problem.
- [36:08]
A
Yes.
- [36:10]
B
So, and I, I mean, I know that, like, we're laughing and like, we're talking about this from an efficacy. Efficacy standpoint.
- [36:17]
C
Right.
- [36:18]
B
But I do, I do want to stress that, like, this isn't just a small thing. That's, you know, in the world of branding and brand strategy and marketing and advertising and all the like, it's not just a small thing.
- [36:32]
C
Right.
- [36:33]
B
We are in a world right now where we're kind of in a crossroads of our own making.
- [36:40]
C
Right.
- [36:40]
B
We've. We assumed that people with similar demographics and psychographics would have similar perceptions of the world and similar experiences, rather than assuming that people who had similar motivations and motivational drivers would.
- [36:56]
C
Right.
- [36:57]
B
Then we segmented the world according to those details, demographics and psychographics. And we did that so it would seem like we were talking to each of those individuals while we were talking to all of them at the same time.
- [37:10]
C
Right.
- [37:11]
B
And we did that because it was easy. What we didn't admit to ourselves is that we were actually doing that because the structure made those groups easier to manipulate. That's what we were doing. That's what we were doing. And then we got surprised when that manipulation allowed for the explosive spread of disinformation and misinformation and violence.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah.
- [37:37]
B
So, like, I know it's just Ideal client avatars, but it's also not just ideal client avatars, you know?
- [37:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, we see it so show up in so many different ways. I mean, you know, at the time this episode's coming out, we're headed into the US election, and that's like ideal client avatar 101. Like, every. Like, literally all the candidates put everyone into these categories. And then the manipulation for each whatever group you're in, it's like, we're going to speak to that. Interesting. Okay. So I know that for those people listening, they're like, okay, ideal client, Client avatars. I need to learn more. And you've got a resource for us all about that. So tell us about what that is.
- [38:15]
B
Yeah, so I do have a piece that I wrote about why ideal client avatars are trash and what some of the things are that we might want to look for as far as alternatives are concerned right now, don't get me wrong, I have my own alternatives. I have designed them and I use them with my clients with great success, and I enjoy them immensely.
- [38:37]
C
Right.
- [38:38]
B
But I also don't necessarily want to push onto you my own alternative.
- [38:42]
C
Right.
- [38:42]
B
And so what I've done instead is I've listed what some of the things you want to look for are, as far as what a helpful alternative would be. Is. So I hope that sentence ended correctly. I don't know. There were lots of. But that's what I have for you. It'll take you through some of the things that we talk about, about what makes ideal client avatars dangerous and also just not useful and effective. It'll tell you about what you want to look for as far as alternatives are concerned, and it'll tell you some of the things that my own alternative has, in case you're curious about that. So that's something that's interesting to you. Give that a read. It'll be in the resource page that we link.
- [39:26]
A
Yes. And I'm linking that in the show notes y'all online. Drea.com327 Chloe this was amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
- [39:35]
B
Thank you for having me. This is so fun.
- [39:37]
A
Yeah. And I'm going to put all of her links with this episode. Definitely go check out all of the things. It's going to be so good. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning into another episode of the Mindful Marketing podcast. Make sure you give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps keep us in the top 100 podcasts and that's because of you and your listenership. So thank you so much. Next week I'm going to be talking about the rise of dark social and why your best engagement isn't visible. So stay tuned for that. I'll see you next Tuesday. Bye.