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The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
Creating Meaningful Connections on Social Media With Diann Wingert [ADHD-ish Podcast]
00:50:58
If you ever feel like social media engagement feels a bit... empty, or maybe you’re wondering if there’s a better way to make meaningful connections online, you’re not alone. I’m thrilled to share an episode from the ADHD-ish Podcast, hosted...
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to episode number 335 of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. Every December, I bring to you episodes of podcasts that I've been featured on as a way to share some of the work that I've been doing all year and to walk the talk. I don't record new episodes for this month and instead repurpose ones that I think would be very helpful for you. And this week I am thrilled to share an episode from the ADHD Ish Podcast for Business Owners, hosted by Diane Wingert. I joined Diane to discuss one of my favorite topics, rethinking the way we use social media. In this episode, we dive into why chasing audience growth might be missing the point and how focusing on meaningful connections can completely transform your social media strategy and keep your sanity, all while doing it. Diane and I talk about how our personal and professional lives intertwine with the way that we engage online and why it's okay to leave platforms that no longer serve you. It's a real and honest conversation about making social media work for you and on your terms. But that's not all. Let's tune into this episode for practical tips, candid reflections, and maybe a little validation. If you ever thought there's got to be a better way to do this, this is the ADHD Ish podcast. Let me know your favorite part.
- [01:31]
B
So, Andrea, I have been wanting to have this conversation with you for the longest time because you have been doing social media, running a social media agency, commenting on social media, and producing lots and lots of your own content for I think a decade now. But something I've noticed is in the last couple of years your perspective has been evolving and most of the people that I follow on social media are still talking about audience growth, building an audience, the importance of drawing people to you and making an audience of them. But you have evolved into a perspective that if all we're doing on social media is creating an audience, we're missing kind of the point. We're missing the opportunity because there's so much more meaningful opportunity there that an audience doesn't hit. Can we talk about that?
- [02:33]
A
Yes. This is one of my all time favorite conversations, so thank you for having me on the show about this. I actually think a story would work really well here and it's the story of how I met my husband. Have I told you this?
- [02:45]
B
I know this story and I know this hearing it again.
- [02:48]
A
So I've been doing this professionally for 10 years, but I've been creating content online for over 20 years and and one of my projects was a YouTube channel that I would create. It was kind of like about my life sort of situation. And I collaborated with my husband on a video. He wasn't my husband at the time. I was collaborating with a lot of people at the time. And this to me was the beauty of the Internet. As a very introverted, quirky, shy gal in Atlanta, creating videos in my bedroom in my mom's house as a, you know, university student, it was a very awkward time for me and it felt like a very busy, a great outlet for me. So fast forward a few years, I'm creating these content videos, I collaborate with my husband. We connected. I thought he was hilarious and then we just kept talking. And the caveat to all of this is he lived in Toronto, Canada and I lived in Atlanta, Georgia. So the power of the Internet brought us together. And that is the point to me of social media. And like fast forward 10 years later, we have one kid with another on the way and it's just like such a beautiful thing that came from one conversation that happened, you know, 11 years ago on in social media. So I think the idea that social media, the result of it is to build an audience, feels almost ego driven, whereas the early days of social media felt more about connecting to one person, having one conversation. And so that's really what I've leaned into a lot of in the past couple of years. When I think about the value of social media. To me it's meeting people like you, right? Like you and I met through social media. And so that's really, to me, the value of it. It's not about audience, but it's about community. And community to me is a two way conversation. An audience is, you know, shouting out with a megaphone.
- [04:56]
B
And you know what, this is so true, Andrea, whether you are on social media for as a content creator, to promote your business, there are people who do this in a really skillful way where they attract people to them and the others are shouting at them and they're probably running in the opposite direction. Why do you think so many people are still promoting this idea of creating an audience? Because clearly there's media and then there's social media. And if there's social media, it shouldn't just be posting something and leaving it there. Like get a billboard.
- [05:39]
A
Yeah, right.
- [05:40]
B
There's supposed to be some sort of exchange, there's supposed to be some sort of back and forth. And what is the purpose of that connection?
- [05:48]
A
Right.
- [05:49]
B
Why do you think it's so still? I mean, we're talking 20 years 20 years later, so many gurus, consultants, coaches, media coaches are still talking about audience. It seems perfectly obvious that there's a better way to make use of this technology.
- [06:09]
A
Yeah, it is. And I think it's human nature and you probably know this more than I do, but when I think about a different industry, like take the health industry, health coaches talking about, you know, lose 20 pounds in 20 days or whatever it is they're hawking out here, right? Our brains are attracted to that instant gratification and we're romanced by the idea of it, right? We're like, ooh, that sounds lovely. And I think social media can feel the same. It sounds good on paper to go, I want 10,000 followers. That's my goal, right? That's my goal. 10,000 followers. It sounds great, but it's not sustainable. It's not healthy to chase that as an individual person. And I think it can be really detrimental to building connections because any connection you make is not enough. So, like, with the health industry losing one pound, it's not enough. You have to go to the 20 or why are we even focusing on pounds anyways? Why don't we focus on living a healthy life, right? So it's like those questions are a lot of the questions that I have for social media and marketing at large. It's, you know, really digging into why do we want audience growth in the first place? Well, because it's being sold to us as the magical pill that will change everything about your business, when the reality is that little magical pill works for a half of a percent of people, and the rest of us are just giving money to the person who invented today because it's a little bit of a snake oil situation. And I'm saying that as someone who deeply cares about social media, I'm very passionate about it. I love it as a tool for connection. But it's not about that shiny audience growth number. At the end of the day, girl.
- [07:57]
B
You are singing from my in book. Because truthfully, most of the people that I work with as a business coach have spent thousands, sometimes many thousands of dollars chasing after, and I use the same terminology you do, the magic pill. Why? Because we're, we are socially and culturally conditioned to want easy, fast, fun, basically passive results that are going to blow our mind and rock our world. So whether someone's selling us, you know, wrinkle cream or weight loss or, you know, dating advice, whatever it is, we are socially and culturally conditioned to expect it to be easy, fast, fun, ridiculously successful with almost no effort on Our part. And even though we know in our minds if it sounds too good to be true, it frickin is. We still fall for it because we have been trained to do so. And your brain gives you that little squirt of dopamine when you hit the buy now button. Then we have to justify what we've done with the sunk cost fallacy. Well, I have to keep doing it. Because look at how much money and time and energy I've already put into doing it. I have to keep doing it. Which is why I think most of us have a relationship with social media that's, let's just say, complicated. We love it, we hate it, we don't want to be with it, but we can't leave it. And you know, for something that was supposed to be fun, it sure feels like, almost like abusive to so many people I talk to.
- [09:48]
A
Oh my gosh, yes. I often describe it as it's a toxic situationship. It's almost like that, you know, ex boyfriend who always comes calling back but never quite lets you meet his parents. You know, you're not getting that close. And I do think social media is that way because a lot of us just follow along with whatever the app tells us to do and without really analyzing what their goal is. So let's take Instagram, for instance. We log in. If you start creating an account, it's instantly telling you what to do. Put your photo here, create your profile, post here. Oh, look, you got engagement. Let's get more. And so we start chasing that because that's what the app tells us to do. We see everyone else doing it, so we keep doing that without stopping to think, you know, what's in this for me? Why am I doing this for me? How is this nourishing me? And so I think part of it is recognizing that Instagram, their currency is at your attention and they're selling ads. So once we can like pull back, you know, the Oz curtain and see the real person behind the curtain there, we can recognize that, oh, this is Instagram's goal. My goal doesn't have to be the same as Instagram's goal. So then we can ask the question, what is my goal? Why am I here? What benefit does that have this have on my personal life, my business life? And that can really be illuminating and help you decide how you want to use the app instead of letting the app decide for you.
- [11:23]
B
And you know, you're talking about really being mindful, intentional, strategic. And that requires a level of critical thinking and self awareness that we completely bypass when we're just following the herd, when we're just doing what everyone else is doing, when we're paying a course, a program, a coach to say, just tell me what time of day to post. Just tell me how many characters, just tell me how many hashtags, just tell me what length should my reels be? And so many people are just desperate to be given a formula. Just tell me what to do for me when someone hires me to help them with their business and they say, okay, look, just tell me what to do, like word for word, and I'll do it. And I'm like, honey, I'm not for you, because you're going to end up with something that you hate because you had no investment in choosing it. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I think that's one. You're absolutely right. We're just doing what everyone else is doing and what we think we're supposed to do. And we've been told it works without asking ourselves the most important questions. Why am I even here? What are my goals? How do I know when I'm reaching them? How do I feel when I reach them? How do I know when enough is enough? Will enough ever be enough? Like we're just bypassing all that really important critical thinking.
- [13:01]
A
Yeah, and it goes so much farther than social media as well. All of those questions are important in every aspect of our business. So, you know, when I think about revenue goals, for instance, chasing after that feels very similar to chasing after audience growth goals. You have to stop and ask yourself, why? What's required to get there? And am I willing to do what's required to get there? So, for example, example, I was looking at my data from this past year, looking at the post that worked really well, and one of the posts that worked really well was a little bit of like a trendy, you know, here's what's happening right now on TikTok. It's one of my highest viewed posts. And I thought to myself, I could absolutely go down this road. I could attract more quote, unquote audience, I could bring in more people. But I don't want to be caught up in chasing the nuances of all the updates of all the platforms anymore. And just by releasing that, I'm like, oh, I don't. So I don't have to create content just because it performed really well for me. How about we create the content that really resonates with me and actually brings me the people that I want to work with. Right. And not the People who are also constantly chasing all the updates, and they're here today, gone tomorrow kind of thing. So it's kind of like diving deeper into the question of, yes, we can look at all of these data points and say, here's what works, here's what doesn't. But at its core, do you want to do that? Does it benefit the direction that your business is going? If you can't answer that question confidently, then it may not be the strategy for you. And that's what I found for me. Looking at this year, you have developed.
- [14:44]
B
A tremendous amount of expertise in guiding people to do social media, mindfully being on the right platforms for them, for their goals, for their values, using their talents in the way that they want to. And you have long said, because I've been a member of your membership, you have long said, you don't need to be everywhere, you don't want to be everywhere. You will not show up skillfully everywhere. Like, don't do it. And I still did it. I would. I was paying you to guide me and to lead me, to teach me, and you were very clear with everyone. And, you know, the savvy social group, don't try to be everywhere. It doesn't work. And I realized that, wow, this is. This level of conditioning and this level of fear and fomo and just a fundamental distrust in your own intuition is so pervasive. Like, I know better and I still did it. Now, you'll be happy to know that I did start pulling myself off of various platforms one at a time, but it was actually painful. And I think this is really quite perverse. And I'm. I'm fessing up to this with you because I know I'm not the only one. And I know that being honest and vulnerable about the things that we do as business owners helps other people to know they're not alone and they're not crazy. But it's. It's such a powerful force that, you know, we're in business by ourselves. Many of us small business owners, small agency owner, solopreneur, all the decisions rest on you. You are quite literally where the buck starts and stops. And we all think, we're not doing enough, we're not doing the right thing, we're not doing enough of the right thing. And so having the presence of mind to be more intentional, to be more mindful, and to practice constraint, this is no small thing.
- [16:57]
A
Yeah. And it's a huge decision to make. And when you said fomo, that you nailed it, because it really does feel like Being invited to a party, stepping through the door and then going, ah, I'm going to leave early right before the DJ even gets started or whatever the case may be. So if it feels a lot like leaving a party before it's even started, and we feel like we're missing out on something huge because that's frankly what marketers have sold us, is that you are going to miss out if you don't participate in this platform. I'm a huge champion of people leaving platforms. I left Twitter this past year, X, formerly known as Twitter, and I got a little flack for it from some of my marketing colleagues and I was like, I just see a space here for me anymore. And frankly I haven't for quite a long time. The transfer of ownership just was the nail in the coffin for me. So I think that feels like we have to justify it to not only the world around us, but to ourselves, because we're missing out on something huge when in reality we're actually opening up more doors for opportunities. So one of the things my coach said to me, and I'm sure you say this to your clients as well, is what are you missing out on? Because you're committed to this other thing that is completely unsatisfying to you, right? Like what are you opting out of? Because you've opted into whatever, staying on Instagram or whatever it is that you're staying into. And sometimes removing the mental weight and the time commitment of being on that platform opens up so many other opportunities that you can then explore with that freed up time and mental freedom. And so I think that's part of it too is, you know, yes, we've been sold a bill of goods that we should be everywhere and be all thanks to all people, but it's, it's not possible. And the, the brands that you admire who appear like they're everywhere typically have a team that's running it behind and.
- [19:04]
B
Usually a pretty big team and some of them have a different team for each of the different platforms. So yeah, yes, objects in this mirror may be closer than they appear or they may be a lot further away and have no bearing on you and your micro business or micro agency. I want to swing the conversation back a little bit in the direction of connection versus engagement. I know lots of times we use these words interchangeably, but I'm be really curious to know because we're very like minded on this. How, how do you use the term engagement versus connection when you're specifically talking to entrepreneurs like us who use social media to market their business.
- [19:52]
A
Yes. So I think engagement can feel surface level, and it typically is a statistic that, again, the apps give us. So I keep using Instagram as an example because with a lot of my students and clients, it tends to be the sticking point for a lot of folks. But Instagram has this fake notification that says 80% of people have engaged with this post or this post has gotten 80% more engagement. And the goal of it is to get you to open the app again so that you're scrolling again so that you're in their app again. And if you actually run the numbers, it's not 80% increase in engagement. So engagement is a metric the app uses to say, hey, people are signaling that this post is important. It could be a, like, could be a comment. To me, that's very surface level. It almost means nothing. I see how it plays into the algorithm, and obviously it does help for more people to see your post. Connection to me is a deeper conversation. And connections for me also mostly happen on what I call dark social or maybe like the underground of social, which is typically in a dm, so direct message, so not something that's visible to everyone or public conversation. And so that's really where the connection point comes far for me. And connection goes beyond a simple comment on someone's post. It goes a little bit deeper into actually getting to know that person. And I think this is a lot like building any relationship in the real world. Dating relationships, friend relationships. It's not one conversation. And yay, we're best friends now.
- [21:34]
B
Right?
- [21:34]
A
Like, usually it's years and years of micro interactions that builds a relationship with someone, and it can't be manufactured. And so that's the thing that is super important to me about social media connection is it's. It's a series of those micro interactions that builds relationship with that individual person. And sometimes when I talk about this to my. To my. My business friends who, like you mentioned, want the path, they want, they want the answer. Sometimes they say, okay, well, give me a spreadsheet where I can track all of this. And as much as I love a spreadsheet. Yes, you do. I know that I love a spreadsheet. I don't. There's no way to track this part of it. I'm sorry, it's. Once you start tracking it, to me, it's like tracking audience growth. There's something that diminishes the value of each individual relationship when you start combining them and adding and subtracting and calculating. Okay, I talked to this person Two weeks ago. So I reach out to them again. It doesn't feel genuine. So there are ways you can organize yourself, obviously, to keep track of conversations, but it's really about those collective micro interactions that build connection with people. And the surface level, like, or leaving a comment doesn't really leave space for that deeper connection.
- [23:00]
B
This is such a powerful distinction, Andrea, and I think speaks directly to the heart of why so many people say, kind of like, I hate it, but I use it. It's like the old Listerine commercial. I hate it, but I use it because they're just not getting a meaningful piece of feedback. I mean, to me, it's like, yeah, I got more likes on this, I got more comments on this. It just somehow doesn't ever really feel like it matters. Now I might be curious. Oh, this post got a lot more comments. A lot more like, so this one got shared. That's interesting. I wonder what it is about this post. So it'll get my curiosity going, but it still feels very superficial, very. From an emotional level, from a human relational level, just vapid, just sort of like something that would just evaporate a short time later. And. And I think because it's not. It's like fast food. You can eat a bunch of fast food, you can eat so much you make yourself feel stuffed and sick, and an hour later you're hungry again because you didn't actually eat something satisfying and nourishing. So in truth, there really isn't ever enough, is there? It's like you're just on this endless treadmill for more, more, more, and yet more of what? More of something that really doesn't fundamentally satisfy you.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think this is. This is where this word scaling comes from too, where people think they want to scale and get as many, you know, touch possible and repurpose their content as many places as possible. And I think there is a danger in that, especially for micro business owners, because, well, frankly, our businesses don't need it. Right. To have a successful business, we don't need all of that. But like you said with the fast food example, it doesn't nourish us. And for me personally, the things that bring me joy are not something I can scale. Right. Like an example is this week I had someone join my community and I wanted to connect them with another community member. And I couldn't find her profile, so I went to Instagram and I sent her a voice dm because we had just had a conversation there and I was like, hey, I can't find Your profile. And it was like a total misunderstanding. This is not a scalable action. Right. Like, most people would say, andrea, get your assistant to do that for you. And I'm like, this is not. That's not nourishing for me. Yes. I could have a machine working in the background to just automatically pair people together or something. I don't know. But there's something intrinsically satisfying when I connect one person to another person. And that, to me, is a value of community. It's not about how many individuals can I get to pay attention to me. You know, to me, it's about how can I have them to have conversations with each other that are. Aren't centered around me at all. Like, you meet this person, go forth and be awesome. I think it kind of feels like, you know, a matchmaker. Like, if your friend's a matchmaker and, you know, at your wedding, they're like, I matched you two together. I feel like it's similar to that feeling where it's like, hey, I helped you find your person. And it's not a scalable action, and it's not something that I can replicate on demand, but it's incredibly satisfying. And so that's, you know, that's part of the connection piece for me too.
- [26:41]
B
I love everything about this so much. So much. Because we've all been influenced by the messages. We've all been hearing. We're part of the same community, female entrepreneurs. We're all hearing, first it was, you want to make six figures. Then that wasn't enough. Now we're going for seven figure. Now we're in the two comma club. And we don't want to do one on one work anymore because that's trading dollars for hours. We want to scale, so we need a leveraged offer that we can scale. And everybody's like, okay, dutiful little sheep going along. And I guess I want this. And unfortunately, people who are socialized as female are told what they're supposed to want, what they're supposed to care about, how they're supposed to behave. So we're kind of used to it. So, like, okay, I guess I thought I was doing pretty good because I got to my six figures, but now I'm hearing that actually I'm not doing very good at all. So now I got to shoot for seven. Now I have to grow a team. Now I have to have a scalable offer. And I remember in my former career as a psychotherapist, I crawled up the food chain. You better believe I did. I crawled all the way up, I was a clinical director of a huge agency running multiple programs, many millions of dollars of mental health services delivered under my name. And the further and further and further I got away from dealing with individual clients, the more miserable I was. I eventually stepped off the path. I opened a private practice. I didn't even do couples work or family work. I worked with individuals. Why? Because I could have those micro moments. I could have those deep, meaningful, transformational conversations and connections that changed people's lives and changed me. So I'm really relieved to hear other people I respect as leaders talking about things that don't scale and why they matter so much and why we maybe we don't need to get rid of our group programs and our courses and all that, because there's certainly a place for that. But if we think that we should expect satisfaction from superficial transactional situationships and it's not working for us, that's not an us problem, it's a them problem. It is engineered to be superficially and briefly satisfying. So we come back and do it again and again and again and again.
- [29:27]
A
This reminds me so much of the chat GPT AI conversation as well, because it feels, in theory it's gratifying, but in reality it creates so much impersonalization that I actually think those unscalable personal touches are becoming even more valuable. Right. Like, we don't want to talk to robots. I mean, I don't want to talk to robots. I want a real person. And if I'm calling someone and there's an automated message, I'm waiting to press 0 so I can talk to a real person. Right? And so I think that that piece of it, especially for, you know, businesses like ours, where we're not like mega conglomerates, that personal touch will actually carry us a lot further. And as much as people talk about audience and scaling, at the end of the day, you're constantly going to be chasing that thing. And if you have a great offer, a great product, great service, you don't really need a lot of clients to be able to build a referral network. And then you don't really need all of the marketing to like bring in new clients because your, your reputation, you know, precedes you. I mean, I think that's, you know, I know sometimes I talk myself out of a job with people because they're like, I want to work with you. I'm Jay, and I'm like, do you really? Do you need this? And so I think that's part of it is you Know, trying to figure out where you're going in your business and how social media truly, truly has an impact on that direction. Because a lot of us don't need the heavy lift that we're being sold. We don't need, you know, the daily posting and, you know, making sure that we, you know, spend hours on the platform. I think someone said they, they posted TikTok three times a day. And I was like, this is not for me, not for me. And so, you know, some of these things, like, yes, they, they can work. I can, I can show you the numbers. You're going to get lots of followers. But does it make a difference to your business? That's the real question.
- [31:25]
B
And your life. Yes, and your life. Because I think especially as small business owners, agency owners, solopreneurs, we are our business. Our business is us. This is not just our livelihood. It is, in fact, our life. Our life is the moments of how we spend our time, our energy, our effort, our focus, our attention, our passion, our love, our drive. It's how we're spending it. And they're precious and few. And the longer I live, the more I realize all of this is so fleeting, right? And it's the meaningful connections and the communities that matter. I think particularly in our post pandemic culture, there's two things I see happening that I'm wondering what your thoughts are. 1, 100% people are longing for connection. They're feeling digitally connected and emotionally disconnected. So we may have hundreds, thousands of followers, but I think there's an epidemic of loneliness that is probably not talked about nearly enough. And most people don't want to identify with it because there's a sense of shame because, oh, I'm an influencer, okay. But I also see that many people, while they may be hungry for connection, hungry for community, longing for that. They've become accustomed to a hands all the way off style of communication. So when there is a human being available, they will go with the chat box instead. It's like, oh, no, God no, I don't want to talk to a person. Can't I just, like, enter it into some. Can't you just like, oh, God no. And this is not just like social anxiety, social phobia, whatever. Those things are real and I appreciate their impact. But I'm concerned about what I genuinely believe is a loss of social skills and ability and desire to relate when given the opportunity. So I'm sort of seeing two different things and I'm wondering what, what the intersection is.
- [33:45]
A
Yes, I have a few thoughts But I don't know if I have an answer fully because I think we're still in the process of it. All, right? Like, I think we're still affected a lot by this pandemic. I, too, am noticing a lot of people craving connection, and also they're struggling to reach out and make those connections happen. And I think there's a fear of vulnerability there because the connection is two ways. And when we get used to consuming a lot of information, it's very easy to just scroll through TikTok and not have to do anything. You don't have to, like, you don't have to comment or share. You just consume. You're just there. That's easy. It's the. It's the fast food, right? The nourishment comes from interaction, which means making yourself feel vulnerable. And I'm saying this from a place of, like, me, too. Yes, this is me. Same, same, same. And I think the realization hit me, really, when I was pregnant with my first kid and I started reading all of the books and listening to all of the podcasts. But where I got the best advice was actually asking people, like, calling my friend, texting my friends. I joined a. Like, a mama's group, specifically a black mom group, too. Like, you know, what are the challenges we're up against? And part of that was raising my hand and asking the questions, going, help. I need direction. But now I'm pregnant with baby number two. Now I'm realizing the benefit and the nourishment I get from the community is sharing my experience and, like, interacting with the other moms who are now raising their hand, saying, help, I'm here. I need support. One of my friends just got pregnant with her first, and she was texting me last night, and I was saying, oh, just don't read these books at all. They're terrible. Here's a resource. And we have. I live in Canada, so we have a lot of resources available to us as moms and parents. So to me, it was extremely nourishing to be able to give to other people. And I think that's kind of the missing piece right now with, like, this crave for community. It's not so much about taking from the community. It's about finding a community you can give to. I think that part with social media and the way it's designed is actually very challenging because it is a lot of consumption.
- [36:25]
B
This is so, so, so good. And, you know, you anticipated my question. I find myself thinking, I wonder if some of these insights were potentiated by, you Embarking on the path of parenthood. Because being a parent, bringing new life into the world, enlarging your family is like a little incubator for really understanding how connection and community actually benefit us. Because you're not only connected to these little humans and to your husband in a new way, but you see the interconnectedness of you in your community. You with other moms, you with other black moms, you with other moms of two kids versus moms of one. It's like your brain can just start recognizing all these connections that are available to you and that you benefit from. And yes, to your point that I hope we all reach a point where we're not just seeking more consumption or even connection for the sake of meeting our own needs, but our presence as part of an engaged community is not just there for our own benefit. It is there for the benefit of others. That sort of feedback loop that you are able to help people that other people in the community maybe couldn't because they're drawn to you for some reason. And there's satisfaction in that. There's something on a, on a societal level where we do need to go from passively consuming, consuming, consuming and never quite being filled and realizing I have something to offer. I may not be an expert in parenting, but I have some experience I can share and how much more meaningful and satisfying that is to someone than all of the books they could read by the so called experts, some of whom don't even have kids.
- [38:34]
A
Yes, and I think the, the challenge with the books is it's like an A to Z, like step by step process. And my experience so far is raising kid is not A to Z at all. So you kind of need more of like an encyclopedia approach where you're like, I just need this particular question answered right now. And you're right. That's where the giving part of being a community member can be very satisfying. And I do find ways to do this on social media. I spend more time commenting than creating content. So that's just one of my ways of being a good community member is, you know, finding conversations where I can contribute. And these days a lot of them actually happen in closed community spaces. This is where the definition of social media gets a little bit fuzzy. But for example, we're in a community together that feels very social to me in that there are people, people posting and commenting. And I spend more time in those private communities than I do in like a public social media community. And I feel way more satisfied from those interactions versus the one on social media. So I don't know what this means for like the future of our post pandemic world. But I do think actively seeking out ways we can give as a community member can give us some nourishment versus the empty calories of consumption.
- [40:06]
B
I think it does have something to do with the container, you know, the community that you speak of, that were both memberships. I'm really satisfied by the connections, the communication, the conversations that are happening there and how safe it feels to. Because on social media, let's be honest, you can say the most innocuous thing and it can be. You can be like a sitting duck in the shooting gallery. Somebody may just decide to take a shot at you for any reason, no reason at all. And there you are taking heat in closed communities. You're going to be protected by the one who's creating the community. But I'm almost wondering because I've noticed that even people who want to give feedback on a particular podcast episode, they're not leaving reviews. Now, this is my experience, they're not leaving reviews, they're DMing me, they're sending me an email, they're going to my website and they're leaving their feedback, feedback on the speak pipe widget. Because that's a personal, private, one on one connection. And I have a reputation like you. I respond personally. You're going to send me a personal message, you're going to hear from me, you're not going to hear from someone on my team. And that feels very different. I mean, it's great to get podcast reviews, but they tend to be fashioned and phrased and communicated in a way that's fit for public consumption. So people really think about what they're going to say. And most of the time anybody could say it, but when they send a DM or an email, I'm getting really personal, vulnerable, really meaningful feedback like this really spoke to me. And I'm going to tell you why I don't think they're going to do that on social. So I think what all of the things that you're saying make so much sense for where we are as a society, where we are culturally, where we are as business owners and the unmet needs that people have that they're, they're really starting to pay attention to and do something about.
- [42:17]
A
Yes, yes. And I think the do something about is the key here because when we don't, we continue on the path that we're on, which means we're posting all of the places and we're feeling this like resentment of having to be on and available for all of these, frankly, strangers. And this is where I see so often business owners completely give up and they delete Instagram off their phone forever without really stopping to analyze, you know, what's in it for me. They're just like, I'm done, I'm burnt out, I need out out of this toxic situationship. And so this kind of analytical process could be very helpful to figure out if you do need out. If you do need out. Yes, absolutely, take it. And there's still space to have meaningful connection on social media. And oftentimes for me, it's a starting point or it's just a continuation of a conversation. I had someone somewhere else with someone, but it's that one to one conversation that I love the most about it.
- [43:22]
B
You mentioned a moment ago, Andrea, that commenting more and posting less, and that's I'm creating this whole less but better for 2024. It makes a lot of sense. If you are engaging with other people's content, you are making a contribution to a conversation that someone else started. Instead of hijacking the conversation and say, hey, but, but wait, this is what I have to say, or hey, look over here, or hey, listen, I want to tell you this thing. It's like, no, you're making a contribution to a conversation that someone else already started. So posting less and commenting more is naturally a way to create more connection and possibly community because sometimes other people start then commenting on your stuff. What are some other simple but strategic ways that we can start taking these little steps and then kind of measuring the result of how it feels to do so?
- [44:21]
A
Yes, yes. I'm a huge fan of commenting over posting and I like to comment as if I were posting. Posting. Right. So it's not just, you know, congratulations or nice pick or, you know, well done. It's really, you know, if someone's asking a question, pausing and taking a moment to reflect and see how you can contribute to the conversation. Yeah, it takes some time. And sometimes I only get one comment out in a day. Some days I'm on fire and I'm like, oh, Kai, I know what I'm gonna say for all of these things. So that that's one of the things that really helps for me. I also use social media as a discovery tool. So oftentimes when I'm looking for new partnerships or new podcasts to listen to, I start with social media. And so I use it as almost like a research tool, which I also find very satisfying. And then if I find someone who I do resonate with and connect with them. I'll also probably send them a direct message and tell them a little bit about why I connected with them. I used to teach a strategy about, you know, try to connect with 10 people a day, five days a week. But honestly, it can't be that calculated. You. You lose some of the magic of it when you start calculating it out that way. So I typically look at, you know, what do I need in my business and reach out and build connection connections that way. And the only examples I have are ones from years ago because the connections I'm making now are going to take years before they kind of incubate. But one of my favorite examples of this is a guy named Travis Brown. I was looking for a podcast editor, and I was reaching out to a bunch of people on Instagram and saying, hey, I'm looking for a podcast editor. Do you want to connect? And he was one of the people who I connected with, had, you know, the consultation call, ended up hiring him. And then we became friends. And it's like we've gone to conferences together, we share updates about our kids because he's got two kids, they're a little bit older than mine. So I've been asking him, like parent of two kids questions. You know, he's now pivoted to work. We work in the same field now. He started in podcasting, now he's more in social media coaching. And so all of that came from an Instagram dm and I'm speed talking through it. But I met him in 2018 because that's when I launched a podcast. So six years ago. Can I do math? It's. It's been a minute. So when I think about the value of some of these micro interactions, they take a long time to incubate. So commenting as a post, sending meaningful connections through research. Those are the two, my two, like favoritest ways to navigate social media as a business owner because it removes the pressure off of creating content. But the third way I'll give you, if you do want to create content, is creating content that's a response to something happening in your community. And again, this is very challenging because I used to teach a five pillar of content method. I remember, yes, I'm easing away from because it doesn't fit how we navigate social media. It can be very helpful for beginner business owners to have those pillars. But where we see the most success right now is when you have a client conversation and you feel impassioned about something. And if you like writing you write about it. If you like speaking, you record yourself talking about that situation because it's tangible, it's real, it's something that's actually happening in your business. Or maybe it's a response to something that's happening in your industry, in the world around you. Like that response style. Content generally seems to work the best because it doesn't feel orchestrated, it doesn't feel planned, it doesn't feel like you have an agenda. And as consumers, we kind of can. Like, we know what an ad looks like and you know, what we do with the ads on YouTube. I cannot wait to press Skip. So the same thing is happening on social media, and we can think about creating content that's a response. It feels less like someone saying, buy my thing, and more like someone saying, hey, I have this idea. I'm starting a conversation. So those are the little things, little big things that you can do to be mindful about how you approach your social media actions.
- [48:46]
B
I loved this idea about creating content that's a response because my mind is saying, well, sure, that makes sense. It's like Q and A. You're closing the loop. Someone has a need, someone has a question, someone has a problem, and you're responding to it. So you're meeting their need, you're meeting your need for creating content, and chances are someone else has that need. And you're also creating a, like a closed loop. Like, yeah, this, it's. It's as close as possible to a conversation without being a conversation. It's an asynchronous conversation. And that is, of course, going to feel more satisfying and probably going to make it a whole lot easier to create content that way. Because most people I know say, oh, I can't do, like solo episodes or just sit down in front of my screen and write out a blog post. But when someone asks me a question, then I can go to town. Okay, people are asking questions. You just need to find those questions and answer them.
- [49:54]
A
I love it. Absolutely. I love it too. And you're right, it does make it a lot easier. You can actually create content a lot faster because you're not having to, like, think of something from thin air.
- [50:04]
B
This has been one of the most satisfying conversations I've had in a long time because it really speaks to not social media on the superficial level, but really the bigger picture level of our culture, our community, how we as humans relate to one another. And if you are feeling like social media is something you want to dump, you want to run away from, you want to break up with. If you need to do that, do that. But maybe you want to consider some of the things that Andrea and I have been talking about as an alternative to see if you can't transform your relationship with someone, social media, into one that is both satisfying and sustainable.