← The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
The Power of Speaking and Collaborations with Jenn Zellers
00:31:11
Sick of feeling like you have to create content all the time just to stay visible? Yeah, same. But here’s the good news: there’s a smarter, more sustainable way to grow your business—and it has nothing to do with grinding out more Instagram...
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Transcript43 lines
- [00:01]
Andrea
Sustainable marketing is the name of the game and I'm excited to have today's conversation because speaking and collaborations is one of my favorite attraction strategies. And we're going to get into all the nitty gritty today with Jen Zellers. But first, a word from our sponsor.
- [00:17]
Jen Zellers
I've recorded over 300 podcast episodes. Yeah, it's a lot of podcast episodes and I've tried a lot of different virtual recording studios, but my favorite is has been Riverside. Riverside makes their virtual recording studio look so profess. My guests love it. Plus I also low key love recording YouTube videos in here as well because it's so easy to use. My team also loves Riverside because it spits out separate audio video tracks, making editing easy, breezy lemon squeezy. And if you want a little magic, they've got this tool called magic clips.
- [00:52]
Andrea
Which uses AI to take your video.
- [00:55]
Jen Zellers
And turn it into perfect social media sized videos. I'm talking vertical videos for TikTok and Instagram, Facebook reels, all the places you can post these videos with the captions included and you don't have to hunt and search for that perfect clip. So if you want to try this out for yourself, click the link that goes with this video. Or if you're listening to the audio on the podcast, it's in the show notes. Okay, click that Link, use the 15% off coupon code. It's DREA D R E A. And try Riverside for yourself. Thank you, Riverside.
- [01:28]
Andrea
All right, welcome back to the Mindful Marketing Podcast. This is episode number 344 where we help you scroll less, connect more, so we can grow together. Jen Sellers, welcome to the show.
- [01:38]
Jen Sellers
Thank you so much for having me. Andrea, I'm excited to be here.
- [01:41]
Andrea
I'm excited to chat with you because I have been in your ecosystem for a while. I remember signing up for your collaborations like database back in the day. And so I'm excited to talk about your journey and how you got here. But for those people listening, can you give us the quick definition? Like, what does sustainable marketing mean to you?
- [02:07]
Jen Sellers
So around here for us it means creating a visibility ecosystem. So creating your marketing foundations. We do it through speaking in collaborations and then using that to create your marketing assets so that you're not creating them from scratch every time and you're not burning out on your marketing anymore.
- [02:26]
Andrea
Yeah, not burning out is like the ultimate goal. So tell us your story. Like, did you have a big burnout moment? How did you get to today?
- [02:34]
Jen Sellers
I kind of hate content marketing, which is why I'm in The lab, because I'm all the ideas, but I am not so much of a creator. So I can come up with all of the ideas for how to grow your business, do creative things to bring people in. But I really, really hate creating marketing assets from scratch, especially graphics and that kind of thing. So, as someone who's been speaking on summits and podcasts since 2015, I started figuring out ways that I could use that and helping other people do that, too. And that transition from virtual summit search, which is where we have the speaker directory now. But it's not so much what I focus on, because I realized the best way to get started is proactively through podcasts and being a guest on there, and then going on to other visibility strategies like virtual summits and speaking in other people's programs and stuff like that. So that's kind of how we got here.
- [03:35]
Andrea
Yeah, I'm with you there. I find that. So I do like creating content, but I find that some things, like the summit and the podcasting, especially when you get the right one, it adds such, like, a burst of energy to your business, whereas content creation feels a lot of time more like the daily, like, input, the daily grind. And so that's what I like about specifically speaking on summits and things is that, you know, you do it once, and then it's like a flurry of activity, and you have all these new people in your world, and you kind of, like, can chill after and take a break. Do you find the same thing?
- [04:12]
Jen Sellers
Yeah. And the other thing, though, is even with summits, which are a finite time frame of when the summit's happening, you can still take that content and use it for a long time. So podcasts are a great way to do that, but summits even, too, because people are probably asking you questions. So that flurry of activity at the beginning, where all these new people are coming in and they may have new questions that you haven't gotten asked yet, that turns into even more content.
- [04:38]
Andrea
So.
- [04:39]
Jen Sellers
So it just kind of snowballs from there.
- [04:40]
Andrea
Yeah, I love that. Okay, so why do you think that we, as business owners and entrepreneurs, kind of see summits and speaking as such a powerful tool for our community? Like, why do you think it works so well as part of your visibility ecosystem?
- [04:59]
Jen Sellers
It gets you in front of new people, and if you're doing it right, it's getting you in front of the right people. Because if you're saying no to summits and podcast invites that are not your ideal audience, who are not going to put you in front of dream clients, then you're saving your time and your energy for ones that are and that can do so much more for your business growth and your marketing than putting out a hundred Instagram posts or a thousand Tiktoks or whatever your other content marketing happens to be. But it can also turn into those. So that's where I see the power of speaking, especially on the podcasts and summits and other places where you're getting, like you said, that burst of new audience members, but also that content for marketing.
- [05:45]
Andrea
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So if someone wants to start, where. Where do we start when it comes to, like, teeing ourselves out? So we do get that burst of new people and all of the good stuff that comes with that.
- [05:56]
Jen Sellers
Yeah. So when we get started with our clients, we always send them on a podcast tour, and we tend to recomm doing that quarterly. Because if you're sending out 20 to 30 podcast pitches to the right fit podcasts, then you typically are going to book somewhere between five to seven podcasts each quarter. And that can differ. Like, if a client's like, hey, this quarter's really busy, we tone it down a bit. If they're like, I really need, I'm doing a launch, I want to get stuff going for the next quarter, we do more of those. But if you're doing it quarterly, you're constantly getting fresh content coming in. And so that's going to keep your marketing efforts really sustainable because you always have new stuff. And then you can keep rotating that out with your evergreen that you've created from last quarter's podcast tour and all of your past speaking opportunities. So I always recommend starting there with a podcast tour because it is proactive. And then from there, you're going to start getting other invites too.
- [06:53]
Andrea
Yeah, y'all listening? One of my favorite attraction strategies is podcast guesting. Like, it is my. It leans into my preference, which is I am just like off the cuff talker. So if you put me in a podcast space and someone's like asking me questions and I get to answer them, it's the ideal scenario. But I find that it has to be the right podcast. So can you talk to me a little bit about, you know, if someone's looking for, you know, looking to do this podcast tour, how do we know if a podcast we're pitching is a right fit podcast?
- [07:26]
Jen Sellers
Yes, that is a great question. So when I'm bringing in a client to work on this, I usually ask them some things. So who's your audience? That's going to be one Starting point, what are your offers and then what are your goals with it? Because if you're looking to build authority, I might put you on different podcasts than if you are trying to get leads or sales from it. The other thing I ask them actually is what do you love to talk about and what questions are you getting? So we take your audience, we take your offers and tie those into the questions that you're getting, the topics that you could talk on forever. So like mindful marketing. And then we're going to bring all of that together to find your sweet spot. And that is going to tell you what your profitable speaking topic is and what kinds of podcasts you want to get on. Because they need to be ones that are going to facilitate that topic and really get you in front of the right audiences. So if you're not getting in front of the right audience and you're not able to pitch a podcast topic that is going to speak to them on that particular podcast, because it might be a great podcast, but it's not the right fit for you. There are plenty of times where I'm doing a no fuss podcast tour for a client and I'm looking at a podcast and I think it's going to be great. And then I go dig in a little bit deeper and I go, nevermind, that topic is not going to fit. So like, maybe we're talking about life coaching and this is a tidiness, but that life coach has a really specific angle on what they're talking about and it doesn't really get into decluttering your house. And so maybe I say, okay, never mind, we're not going to pitch them for that one, but this other one has a slightly different angle on this. And maybe it's decluttering your life. And for whatever reason, the topics they've had on before fit a lot better with that client's topic. So you have to make sure that you're really customizing it and not just sending out pitches to every single podcast that looks like maybe it'll be a right fit. You get really, really specific, customize your topic, customize the questions that you're pitching them, and make sure that it's relevant for that particular audience too. Because what you say to Mompreneurs is not going to be the same thing that you would say to CEOs of a company with 50 employees.
- [09:38]
Andrea
Yeah, yeah, I think the customization thing is key. I say this all the time too, because, you know, on this podcast I get so many pitches that it's the Ones that stand out or the ones that get on the show, or someone I know personally like you. So, like, you kind of have to do the research or hire someone who's going to do the research so that it can stand out. Because I promise you, the bigger podcasts or the ones who've been around for a while, they get so many pitches that you kind of have to. To stand out and have those, those talking points. What about, you know, you, you mentioned having the topic. I think you, you talk. You. I don't remember how you said it.
- [10:19]
Jen Sellers
But it was like, profitable speaking topic.
- [10:21]
Andrea
Profitable speaking topic. We need to talk more about this because how do you, how do you pick just one?
- [10:28]
Jen Sellers
So most of the time what I do with my clients is we have a primary one that you're going to speak on. So for me, it's sustainable marketing. But you may have some secondary speaking topics. I usually recommend a max of like 3. You can do different angles, though. So I may talk about creating your sustainable marketing system from the lens of mindful marketing, where you're not trying to do all of the things all the time. But I also might talk about it from the angle of you're trying to hire a team member to do this. So how do you create a sustainable marketing system that you can pass off to a team member? So you're always making sure that you're customizing it to that audience and what they actually need to hear. And I also always recommend to my clients that they think about it from the lens of what does your audience think they need? And then what do you know that they need? Because what they think they need is not going to be the same thing as what, you know they need. So my clients may think that they need to figure out how to create more marketing assets. And yeah, they need that. But what they really need is to create a foundation of material that becomes those marketing assets so they can have an evergreen library of marketing content so they're not creating it from scratch all the time. So you may have one speaking topic. You don't have to get bored with it. I tend to use the same type of topic for my clients when I'm putting together their podcast tours. But we customize it to every single podcast and you can change up the questions because like I said, the questions you're going to ask ask or you're going to get asked for mompreneurs is not going to be the same thing as for stay at home moms. So you can still get creative with your topic without diluting yourself by speaking about everything just because somebody asks you for it.
- [12:20]
Andrea
Yeah, 100%. And I. What I like about what you said too is you have a focus, but then you can still customize it depending on who you're pitching and even like the shows that you show up for, which I love. Okay, so let's also talk about summits and speaking as well, because I think that there's. You talked about the two pieces. Like, we start with the podcast tour, then we go into the summit. Let's actually start there. Why do you recommend that strategy?
- [12:50]
Jen Sellers
It's really just about being able to be proactive. So a podcast is an ongoing content piece, like a content engine, essentially. So you can typically tell when a podcast is still active. They've been publishing regularly, maybe they have seasons. And so you say, okay, I don't know when they're going to start season four, but I'm going to go pitch them because they're wrapping up season three. And just say, hey, I know that you're wrapping up season three, but at least then you know that they're coming back versus a summit. Some of them are recurring. Some people do a summit. It goes really well. They say, okay, this is a great lead generation, a great sales strategy. I'm going to keep doing it. But you don't always know. So typically, summits, from what I have found, are inbound invitations. They either have seen you on another summit, heard you on a podcast. Another reason why I start with podcast tours, because a lot of hosts do go to podcasts to find their speakers. They may have asked friends or other speakers for recommendations. And because they know that you want to speak because you told them, then they're recommending you. So it's mainly just because podcasts are proactive outreach. Summits are more passive, inbound invites. So it's just a lot harder to get proactive with those summits because you don't know when they're coming, you don't know if they're coming back necessarily. And because sometimes, even if a host says, yeah, we're going to do it again next year, it doesn't always happen. So that's just the main reason, honestly.
- [14:18]
Andrea
Yeah. So how do you know if a summit is a good fit for you? Because. So this is totally selfish question, but I get a ton of invites out for our summits now that I've been doing it for, like, years and years. And so sometimes it's hard to tell if it's going to be a good fit for me or not. So if someone's getting an invite to speak on the summit. How can you tell if it's a good fit for you?
- [14:39]
Jen Sellers
That is a great question. Summits can sometimes be hit or miss. A lot of the time it is based on how well they've prepared, what speaker lineup they're getting. So if they are saying, hey, these are the speakers that I have on and you take a look at them and the folks that they're highlighting are maybe not in the same niche as you. Like you want them to be similar enough, but not so close that they're overlapping and they need to have the same audience. That is the main thing. So if you work with online business owners and everybody else is working with brick and mortar business owners, probably not the greatest fit for you because you're not going to get in front of your ideal audience. And so honestly, a lot of the time what I look for is just what topic are they pitching me for you? Maybe they're pitching you social media and you're like, did they actually take a look at what I'm doing right now? Because I'm talking about mindful marketing and that's I can talk about it, but it's not my focus. And if they don't mention, kind of makes me wonder if they did their homework. Also, if they're asking for a list size, I'm sure that you get that all the time. Where you need to have 5,000, 7,000, some people are even doing 10,000 email lists right now. Or if they're asking you to pay, that's another red flag. But honestly, a lot of the time if they have a speaker info page like our friend Krista Miller teaches over at Summit in a box, you can tell pretty quickly if it's a well put together summit, if they have their systems in place and that should give you enough information to tell if it's the right fit for your topic, for your audience. And just generally if it's something that you know the timing's right and if they're asking too much for a promotion and that kind of thing, you just kind of have to gauge your availability and whether it's the right fit in terms of that.
- [16:29]
Andrea
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like there's so many different components to this too. Like it almost is like any, anything like we're judging to see if it's a good fit. It's like there's, there's complexities to it. But I always like organization and anyone who uses Krista Mil approach, I'm like, okay, like you instantly have bonus points because she's so freaking organized. Okay, so let's say we're out here in these marketing streets, we're podcast guesting, we're speaking on summits. What are some of the metrics that we're looking for to indicate that, hey, this is working, this is successful, it's growing my business. Like, what numbers? What are we looking at to see if everything is working?
- [17:12]
Jen Sellers
Yeah. So honestly, that is one of the biggest things that I see people kind of go off the tracks with, is they go into it saying, oh, I'm gonna get 150 leads from this and I'm gonna make a bunch of sales. And they actually just set the wrong goals and that. So they get disappointed when they get 25 leads and don't make any sales immediately. But they don't realize, oh, this podcast positions me really well. And by being able to promote it and say, I was on this podcast, it's a stepping stone to getting onto other podcasts. Maybe the host knows people or the host is a summit host too, and so they might invite you back. So I always recommend my clients take a look at four different goals and decide if they're looking for leads for sales to build authority or to make networking connections for collaborations and that kind of thing. Because if you're setting the wrong goals, it's going to backfire on you because you may be looking at the wrong metrics. So just understanding what you may be getting is honestly the biggest thing for knowing if it's working. So a podcast, for example, you may not get a ton immediately, but you may get a trickle down effect where over the years or maybe the weeks, the months after it airs, people are still going back and listening and you're getting more leads and more sales that way. It also might be an audience that is not quite ready to buy immediately. But if you have a good email nurture sequence and you're engaging them really well after they get into your audience, then they may end up converting to sales then. So it's really hard to say exactly which metrics to pay the most attention to. But those goals also help you decide if something is the right fit. Because right now maybe you need leads and sales just because you're in a growth phase for your business, whereas other times you may be looking more for that authority and those connections to then go out and do collaborations later on.
- [19:15]
Andrea
Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me too, it's the relationship building piece. Like I get to have conversations with people who would never like have the time of day to just like sit down and have a little chatty chat. So that's what I love about podcasting, too. Like, once it's done recording, you can always ask, like, who else you know, can you connect me to or how else can I support you? And so I love that as a goal as well. So what about those, those people who may be feeling a little bit intimidated by this idea of like, public speaking, quote, unquote, or where, you know, we're, we're putting ourselves out there when we're guessing on podcasts, we're putting ourselves out there when we're, when we're speaking on summits. How do we get over the nerves of it all?
- [19:58]
Jen Sellers
That is a great question. That is something. So my husband is actually a public speaking coach and he teaches at, like, university level. So he's got an entire lesson on how to get confidence with public speaking. And one is just practice. Like, even if you are just getting on the camera and recording yourself talking, even if it doesn't get published anywhere, and then build yourself up to going live a couple times for like two minutes, it doesn't have to be long, and there may be nobody who even shows up. But the other thing I love about doing podcast interviews is it feels way less intimidating because you're sitting here, I'm sitting, just talking to Andrea. And so if, if it was something that kind of scared me, it's really low key. It's just a conversation with one other person, and you can kind of forget that you're actually going and talking to a bunch of people. The other thing you can do is start going for podcasts that have a low audience. If you, if it still is in the back of your mind and you're sitting there going, okay, I know I'm just talking to Andrea, but there's going to be hundreds of thousands of people listening. Just go on a smaller podcast to start with. And that way you can kind of work your way up. And podcast downloads and that kind of thing can be a little hit or miss with how accurate the metrics are. But if you feel like it's a smaller audience, it's just a mind game. So that's one way. But really it's just working yourself up, practicing. And like, if you want to pitch a really big podcast, don't start there. Start small and work your way up and just practice. Yeah, that's the biggest thing.
- [21:38]
Andrea
This is why I, like, you know, when we're pitching podcasts too, going after the ones that are a little bit more attainable. Right? Like, not going after like the number one business podcast on, you know, Apple podcasts, going after one where maybe you do know the host that can make you a little more comfortable or one that isn't as popular that can make you more comfortable. Plus, you need to practice. It's a skill, right? Like, I think, I think there's this assumption, especially as adults, we just want to show up and be good at everything, right? We're like, we're just shopping, you know, we just do the thing. But it definitely takes time and practice. So I love that advice. I love it. You also mentioned earlier about this idea of, well, your whole methodology is around being sustainable, right? And like not doing the things that are going to burn you out as a business owner, as a content creator. And I'm seeing this now more than ever. There are so many business owners who are burnt out. There are so many content creators who are like taking a break. What are your pieces of advice? If we're like starting to put this, this visibility ecosystem into place, how do we make sure that we're not going to burn ourselves out?
- [22:43]
Jen Sellers
That is also a great question because it is so easy to be like, oh, we're gonna just do a low lift and then it turns into a really big lift. So usually what I recommend is if I have a client who has been on podcasts in the past, we'll start by going to those podcasts first. We'll pull them into a tool like castmagic and pull out all of the different pieces that we can use for social media. When I'm doing it for a retainer client, I will focus on getting at least nine to 12 different pieces of content. It's like three carousel posts, three quote posts, three short form videos, that kind of thing. Maybe some longer form content for blogs or emails or LinkedIn and then turning that into evergreen content so they can immediately start posting those and just rotate out which podcasts they're talking about. So maybe they have five of them they talk about in one month and then they rotate on to the next set. And, and so that way you start building up that content database essentially. And so we built that into their visibility ecosystem hub so that anytime there's something going, oh shoot, I didn't get a post ready, you can just go in, grab something that you haven't posted in six months, no one's going to notice, or at least if they do, they're probably not going to care. And so that way you can keep it really low lift, you create it once and you can keep using it for Years to come. If you're going on 20 podcasts a year, that is what, almost 200 pieces of content probably that you can pull out from that. That 200 pieces of content is almost a year's worth of daily posts. You can easily go and feel your content marketing system for years just by doing a quarterly podcast tour. Super low lift. And you don't have to go too crazy with it.
- [24:32]
Andrea
Yes, use the content you already have. I feel like that should be my mantra going forward because I think this is where business owners try to get too fancy, is that we just think, oh, we said it already. But I promise you, you need to say it again. And I promise you, your people need to hear it again. So, like, reuse that content. And then also if you're doing the podcast tours and the summits right, there are new people coming in who haven't heard you say it yet. So use it again and again. I love this so much. Okay, do you have an example of this kind of, like, ecosystem working? Well, I want to hear about either you or a client of yours who had like a success moment from all of this. Beautiful strategy.
- [25:21]
Jen Sellers
Yeah, so I am, I'm kind of the worst at doing it for myself because I'm sitting there doing it for clients. But yeah, we just started offering the no fuss podcast tours last year, so like 20 end of 20, 24. So we're still kind of gathering the data on that. But I've, I've seen clients get 25 to 50% acceptance rates from their podcast tour pitches. And as they start doing that, they're able to go and create that content bank. And so when I do it one, it goes and it builds that relationship with the host. So honestly, a lot of the time podcast guests don't share their content. When they get swipe copy and swipe graphics, they just kind of go, okay, thanks, and then probably honestly forget to post it. Like, most of us have the best intentions, we mean to, but we don't actually do it. So that's why I've got my visibility ecosystem hub that anytime I get a new podcast guest appearance, put it in there, make sure to share it during that week where it airs to give it a boost. But then I go back and do it again and I make sure I'm tagging the host in the post because then they can go and reshare that if they want to because it gives them a signal boost. So honestly, that's one of my, my favorite things that comes out of when I share my content on an Evergreen basis is it builds that relationship with the host and it builds into somebody else's business. Because like you said, relationships are so key. And I want to make sure that I'm, I'm not just ghosting the podcast hosts who I work with, because if, if I'm doing this and sharing it, they're more likely to go and refer me back to other summits and podcasts and just remember me if they have a collaboration opportunity coming up. So it's a win, win.
- [27:12]
Andrea
Yes. I love this. Like, I think that this, this just goes into, like, be a good person. Like, be, be a good. Be a good collaborator. And more collaborations will come your way. I love. Okay, so as we wrap up, I know that you have this questions generator. I've tried it, but my dear listeners do not know about it just yet. Give us all of the details about this questions generator that you have.
- [27:39]
Jen Sellers
So this is part of a suite of apps, like, well, we're calling them apps. It's essentially just little mini tools that we are creating for speakers. So this is the first one that we've gotten to release publicly. And it is, it's really fun because it's super duper easy to use. You literally just plug in your speaking topic and a little bit of info about the podcast that you're speaking on. If you want to, you don't even have to. And it will automatically generate 10 customized questions that the podcast host can ask you. So when we were developing this, my co developer plugged in, I think it was literally Bees are Awesome. It was like three or four words and it came up with 10 podcast interview questions that we were kind of blown away by. It told a story. It really dug into some questions that they might not have thought to ask otherwise. So the way that I use this is I use it myself when I am going and creating no Fuzz podcast tours. Because in our pitch emails, we include two to three questions that the host could ask. It shows one, that you've customized it to their audience, and so it's really highly relevant. You've done your homework. And two, it makes it low lift for the host. And if they want more questions, they can ask you. So having those 10 questions is really, really helpful. But also if you're not just guesting on podcasts, you're also hosting. You can use this for your own podcast interviews. If you're like, okay, I want something that maybe they haven't been asked before, you can just plug in the guest topic into the interview questions generator and get 10 questions that you can ask them on your own podcast. So it's really multi use and I've been having a lot of fun with it.
- [29:21]
Andrea
Yes, use this tool, especially if you're like, you're having that struggle where you're staring at the blinking cursor inside of your Google Doc and you're like, what? What am I even talking about right now? Like, use the tools to help you get there. I love this. So I'm going to put the link in the show notes online dre.com 344 where else can people connect with you, Jen?
- [29:43]
Jen Sellers
Yeah, you can go ahead and find me at visibility ecosystem, so visibilityecosystem.com and I'm pretty much exclusively on threads right now at Visibility Ecosystem. Hopefully getting into like LinkedIn soon because I'm kind of done with Instagram. But.
- [30:00]
Andrea
You'Re not the only one. So I will put all of Jen's links in the show notes onlinedrea.com 344 Jen, thank you so much for being on the show today.
- [30:10]
Jen Sellers
Thank you so much for having me, Andrea. This is fun.
- [30:13]
Andrea
Yay. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning into another episode of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. Coming up next in the Mindful Marketing Lab. If you have not joined us yet, please come on in. Jen's in there. We're having a lot of fun. We're learning all about marketing. And this month we're continuing our LinkedIn training with two very special trainings. We have a LinkedIn advanced training and a Q, Q and A session which is right after this episode. So if you're listening to this on February 11th, it's coming out February 12th, so you still have time to join. And then we're also doing an advanced LinkedIn ads training with the amazing Julie O'Hare. If you are also done with Instagram, this, all of this is for you. So come on in, the water's warm. You can find that link in the Show Notes or on my website. Stay tuned. We have more episodes coming out soon. I will see you next Tuesday. Bye for now.