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The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
The Shift from Tactical to Mindful Marketing With Maggie Patterson [Staying Solo Podcast]
00:38:32
I'm excited to share my guest episode on the BS-Free Business Podcast (now Staying Solo Podcast) with Maggie Patterson. I love Maggie's no-fluff approach to building service-based businesses and in this episode, we tackled a topic that's near...
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- [00:01]
Maggie Patterson
Welcome to episode number 336 of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. In a continuation of my series this month for sharing episodes that I was a guest on, I'm excited to share an episode of the BS Free Business Podcast with Maggie Patterson. I always love Maggie's no fluff approach to building service based businesses. It's just so refreshing. And so I was honored to be back on her podcast. And in this episode we tackled a topic that's near and dear to my heart. The evolution of social media and how to use it more mindfully.
- [00:33]
Andrea Jones
In this episode we dig into some.
- [00:34]
Maggie Patterson
Really big questions like how do you set boundaries and maintain privacy in this digital world?
- [00:39]
Andrea Jones
Or why does social media sometimes feel.
- [00:42]
Maggie Patterson
Like a never ending situationship?
- [00:43]
Andrea Jones
And how can you show up authentically.
- [00:46]
Maggie Patterson
Online without falling into the performative vulnerability trap? I also talk about my journey from solo social media freelancer to leading an agency, as well as my thoughts on moving away from hustle culture to a more intentional and balanced approach, not just to social media, but to business.
- [01:03]
Andrea Jones
So if you ever feel like social.
- [01:05]
Maggie Patterson
Media is running your whole freaking life, or if you've ever wondered about how do we make it work for you instead of against you, this episode is for you. Listen to my conversation with Maggie on the BS Free podcast and let me know what resonates with you the most.
- [01:29]
Social media is evolving quickly and many of us have a love hate relationship with it. But what if you didn't spend your energy worrying about the algorithm and instead found a way that works for you, One that helps you connect it all together in a way that feels good? In this episode, Andrea Jones, a mindful marketing strategist, discusses her evolving approach to social media and her desire to have deeper conversations about its impact. Hey Andrea, welcome to the show.
- [01:54]
Andrea Jones
Hey Maggie, thanks for having me on the show.
- [01:56]
Maggie Patterson
I'm excited to have you back. We've had you talk about a lot of different things. Last time you were on you were talking about LinkedIn, but I want to chat about how your business is evolving and how you're looking at social media now. So for those of the listeners that don't know you, can you introduce yourself and your business?
- [02:15]
Andrea Jones
Yes. So I now consider myself a mindful marketing strategist with a focus on social media and my business. I have an agency where we deliver social media services and then I also teach social media in our kind of like, education arm of the business. I love it.
- [02:31]
Maggie Patterson
Okay, so the reason I invited you to be on the show is because I love you and you always have Something insightful to say, but back in the fall, you started sharing about how you want to evolve your business and you really weren't sure what was next. So can you share a little bit of what was going on that prompted that kind of like, oh, interesting. I want to look at what I'm doing and think about this a little differently.
- [02:54]
Andrea Jones
Yes. Well, I've been feeling a little bit of dissonance with social media for a while because there's this perception when I say I'm a social media strategist that people would have. They would expect me to be, I don't know, maybe like someone like Gary Vee who posts a million times a day and lives on the Internet. And that's not my vibe at all. And I was feeling bad because some of my favorite people would feel apologetic about things like, yeah, I decided to close my Instagram, or, you know, I haven't posted in six months and I'm like, good for you. I love that for you. You know. And so I was feeling a little bit of dissonance with like perception on what I do versus what I actually do because that has been changing for quite a long time. I mentioned Gary Vee earlier, but he was one of my early, like, people I look to for marketing because I did find his concepts interesting and the strategies interesting. But I realized very quickly it's not for me. I am introverted. I need my books and my crochet and like, leave me alone please moments. And while I do love peopling, I do it in a way that works for me and the Internet actually makes that easier for me. So this whole transition kind of culminated in a live event I hosted that you were at in November of 2023, where we were having conversations that were the conversations I so desperately wanted to have more regularly. It was beyond, like, how many times should we post on TikTok? And it was more like, how is TikTok affecting the way we do business? What if we decide not to be on TikTok? Or, you know, let's zoom out and like, really figure out how social media fits into our marketing ecosystems. How do we balance this? And like people had aging parents or young children or a full time job. And, and so those are the conversations I want to have. And so a lot of this switch for me is leaning into like my desire to, to have those conversations instead of being so surface level or tactical focused.
- [05:01]
Maggie Patterson
Okay. And I think here's the thing that we get so trapped in. I love the word tactical with social media. When the conversations are happening a lot of time. It was always like, what audio should I be using? And I'm sure when you are working with your clients on a strategy level, like, that's not the conversation. The conversation is, should you be using TikTok? How does Instagram fit in your business? Is this the right platform? What is going to work for you as a human? I mean, those are the types of conversations that have to go ahead of any tactic.
- [05:33]
Andrea Jones
Exactly. And it goes far beyond, like, oh, I should post three times a week on Instagram. And so I'm already having these conversations with my clients and with my members and my program. And it felt a little bit like I was always redefining myself with people. Like, I'm a social media strategist, but here's my asterisk. Here's the, you know, footnote. And I'm like, I want the footnote to be the main thing now. So that's where a lot of this came from, because it's. The tactics are so easy to focus on. There is a point in business where that is necessary, especially when you're learning something new. But I've been doing this for 10 years, and it feels like it is time to evolve.
- [06:14]
Maggie Patterson
Yeah. Especially too, when so much of the conversation now is about, like, what is social media doing to our brains? How does it impact us on a personal level? And I know you've been very vocal with your kiddo, like, just being like, I don't want to live out my kid's life on social media. And that's a choice we've made as a family. So, I mean, there's really kind of bigger existential questions at stake.
- [06:37]
Andrea Jones
Exactly. And it goes beyond my kid, too. Like, a lot of my family makes that decision to my dad, my brother. Both of them are people who are like, I don't want to be on social media. And if there is a photo of me, like, let me have a look at it first. Because they. They're very private people. And I 100% respect that and admire that. And so. But to me, it's like, it's such a deeper question around boundaries and privacy and preference. There's this assumption in 2024 that everyone is, like, it's open season to put everything on the Internet, and that that's a conversation I want to have. Like, okay, so, but where's the line? You know, I see this a lot of times with people, like, filming other people in public and posting. Oh, my gosh. Right. Yeah. Usually this happens in, like, a shaming way. And I'm like, oh, this is so. I don't want this to be the society I live in. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about why we shouldn't do this.
- [07:31]
Maggie Patterson
So my gym actually has signs up about filming everywhere. And, you know, obviously there's one in, you know, the main area because they're having so many problems with, let's just say the younger folks, you know, taking pictures. And I bless them, they're taking pictures of their booties and, like, look at me. All right, I got my. Like, it good for them. They're feeling good about themselves. But I actually watched two women get in, like, an altercation in the change room. Over there was a woman taking a picture of herself in the mirror, which seems really harmless, but it's in the mirror so you could see the person behind what.
- [08:06]
Andrea Jones
Oh, my gosh.
- [08:07]
Maggie Patterson
Yeah, so they started getting into it, and I was like, if it escalate. I was just like, they just kind of started and they, like, resolved it fairly quickly. But I was like, no, actually, the policy is you can't do that in the change room. Like, the person raising the issue is. Right. But also, I don't want to have to be worried about that all the time. I just want to get changed and go where I'm going in peace.
- [08:27]
Andrea Jones
Exactly. Exactly. And so, like, I think that your gym putting up signs is a beautiful thing. I hope more places do that, because it. It feels invasive. And even for stuff that I voluntarily put out there, like, for example, my. My dog Gibson, I talk about a lot. He's, like, a little bit of a crutch for me because he' so cute and everyone loves him. But I have people I don't know ask me about Gibson by name, and that freaks me out. It freaks me out. And so if it's just with my dog, I can't imagine what it would be like with other things in my personal life that actually matter. Not that you don't matter, Gibson, but that actually matter.
- [09:06]
Maggie Patterson
Well, it goes to the whole. And we just talked about this on a recent dupe episode, Michelle and I, about the parasocial relationship. Like, people get this lends into your world, this. Like, they can glimpse of things, and they start to feel like they really know you. And that's.
- [09:21]
Andrea Jones
Yes.
- [09:21]
Maggie Patterson
And I mean, going to what, you know, your father, your brother. Like, I don't share my partner. I don't share my. Like, on Facebook occasionally. But that's different because I have control of who's seeing that. But I mean, otherwise, I have so many people be like, I didn't even know you were married. I didn't know you had a kid. I'm like, excellent. My job here is done.
- [09:40]
Andrea Jones
It's working. Yeah, I feel the same way too. I think if my husband weren't what I would call like a local celebrity, I don't have celebrity. He's, he's a locally known person. Like, he's also very private. Even though we met on the Internet, he's also very private. And so same thing with him. A lot of times, like, we don't post when we go on vacation, we don't post what we're doing on a day to day basis. Like, if I happen to go somewhere, that picture may show up months from now if I decide to even to ever post it. And so there are very strong boundaries around that. And that's kind of, I don't know it. To me, it's not what people assume when they look at me and they see social media strategist.
- [10:22]
Maggie Patterson
Not at all. So one of the things that really caught my attention is you started doing, you called it. What was it? Thinking out loud. And you were really doing this in public, like you were. And I want to be a little nosy, like, what inspired you to do it in public and what was the reaction to that?
- [10:37]
Andrea Jones
So part of the reason I wanted to do this in public was because I actually saw quite a few people pivoting. I think you also talked about this on the duped podcast where all of these celebrity entrepreneurs are trying to make their pivot seem like something like they just dreamed up. And it's so easy to make this decision and they're just deciding to do it. And I didn't want to be grouped in with those people. I wanted to be like, I wanted to be very publicly, like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I'm feeling pulled into a different direction. And so I want to talk about it a little bit. I also wanted to be very open about the changes that are happening in social media because a lot of people are blaming the algorithm, they're blaming your content, they're blaming, I don't know, Elon Musk, they're blaming everyone. And I think this is a challenge in social media that is actually echoes of a challenge with digital marketing in general. Yeah, that as a marketer, I feel very uncomfy about it. And it goes back to that whole, like, is this right? Are we doing the right thing here? Like that big question. And so all of this came at a Time where my business was slowing down. I'm not going to say descaling. And again, people romanticize this right now. I decided in the least, yeah, I decided to, like, make my business cozier. No, the market changed. How, like, how many clients I have at the moment. I had to let go of some of my team. I just had this amazing retreat, and I was feeling really inspired at the time to talk about, like, the challenges of thinking about marketing here now and today. And so the first part of the series, I just was. I think I wrote like, five emails all at once because I was like, this is not going to fit into one. And then I was like, oh, this feels really good. And I shared it with my email list. And then a lot of people responded to those emails confirming what I was already thinking. And so I kept going with the series. I think I ended at 18 or 19. And then at that point, it felt too exposed because I was like, oh, I feel like I'm getting closer to where I want to go. And I'm not. Not yet ready to share this part yet. So I ended the series and entered into, like, a more reflective moment. But it really came from, like, I don't want to be like, the celebrity entrepreneurs who are like, yeah, I just woke up and felt inspired. I wanted to show, like, this took months of feeling very uncertain about everything. And I just want to share with you how uncertain I feel right now.
- [13:13]
Maggie Patterson
And this is why it really caught my attention, because it normalizes the fact that these evolutions and leaving things behind in our business take time. And that's a big reason I wanted to have these conversations with people. Because what I see a lot of. And you. You've really picked up on this, is that people are literally like, they show up. They have totally changed their business or totally changed direction. They're like, it took me two weeks. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not in line with reality. And it really does people a disservice of thinking they should be able to evolve or pivot that quickly. Like, I think of my own evolutions. They're very slow, and there's a lot of. I'm very uncomfortable for quite some time as I'm going through them.
- [13:56]
Andrea Jones
Yeah. And for me, this is probably the biggest evolution I've made in my business. So to be doing the same thing for 10 years and then to change, I felt like a fraud for half of it. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here. And I feel like I should. And Then let's talk about that. And again, this came from the retreat, too, because I felt like there's something that happens when you actually admit out loud to a collective feeling. And I really felt like there were more people feeling this way and not enough people talking about it. And so I really wanted to reflect that.
- [14:33]
Maggie Patterson
Well, you touched on the fact that, you know, you. But we'll use Descaled because of the way the economy is and just like the realities here in 2024 as we've been through, I don't know if we're in a recession or a market correction or, like, I'm not an economist. I don't want to play one on this podcast. But you had to make some choices, and I feel like collectively, a lot of people have made those choices. A lot of people had very not great years in business last year, but people are turning it into like. Like you said, I want my business to be more cozy. I want this, I want that. Not picking on anyone who uses the term cozy. There's a few people that use it that I absolutely adore, but at the end of the day, I don't know, people want, like, the applause of all the good things, but they don't want to talk about the messy things. And I'm not like, you have to put it all out there, but I feel like we have a duty to, if we're going to build a community around our business, to not do them a disservice by misleading them.
- [15:29]
Andrea Jones
Yes, exactly. And especially since I do feel the responsibility of also reflecting what this means for social media itself. Yeah. I don't want to be the person who's like, anti hustle. Right. Like, I don't think that's my vibe, but I'm also not hustle. It's like, okay, let's find the middle ground, or, you know what I mean? And I feel like it felt right. It felt like the time I wanted to be public about it because transparency is one of my values, and it didn't feel like a boundary to be crossed until it did, and then I stopped posting the series.
- [16:05]
Maggie Patterson
Okay. So, I mean, you've gone through the process here of kind of publicly sharing. You've kind of pulled back, so you've had some time to think about it. So. And, you know, you don't to tell us all the things we're all about, you know, keeping what you need to keep to yourself. But what is the future of your business look like, and how does that play out for you over the next little while?
- [16:24]
Andrea Jones
For the first time ever in my business I have like the 10 year goal and I have no idea how I'm going to get there. I'm usually like a, I know what I'm going to do for the next six months or one year, but after that, who knows, you know, kind of person.
- [16:36]
Maggie Patterson
I'm just going to say, that is impressive. I have never had a 10 year goal. I don't know if it's just how my brain. I literally can't conceptualize it. I could write it down, but I'd be like, yeah, I can't even get, like, I can't even think about. My brain's melting thinking about you having a ten year goal, you know, and.
- [16:51]
Andrea Jones
Maybe it's five years, maybe it's seven, I don't know. But it's like there is this future goal where I'm not the person with all the tactical knowledge and maybe I make an exit out of my agency and I'm not offering services anymore. Or for me, it's more about the conversation in the community. That's where I'm headed. But I have no fricking clue how to get there. So that's part of where I'm like, I don't know, we're just going to try a bunch of stuff. And also I'm having a baby. So this timeline is delayed because of that as well. Because I am very consciously choosing to spend time with my kids at this moment in my life. So that's kind of like the future vision is more maybe facilitated conversations. I would love to be like a panel host, like, let's bring people together and talk about this. The podcast plays a huge piece into this. I've always said I wanted to be more like the Oprah of marketing, where it's like, I don't want to have all of the ideas, but I'd love to be able to shine a light on the people who do. And so that's the future goal.
- [17:54]
Maggie Patterson
Well, I think what's interesting is, you know, you were talking about this and I think someone we both know, Avery Schwartz has done a really good job of being like a go to facilitator, being an expert, amazing community builder. I really see that as very aligned for you.
- [18:11]
Andrea Jones
Yes, Avery's a great example of that. I think that's exactly the direction I'd want to go is like, let's bring the smart people together. And yeah, I have my own lane in social media and I still think social media will play a huge part in this. And it's definitely one piece of the marketing puzzle. But for now, for today, I mean, the biggest change I'm making is I'm changing the name of my podcast.
- [18:34]
Maggie Patterson
Oh, that's exciting.
- [18:36]
Yes.
- [18:36]
Andrea Jones
So the podcast is called the Savvy Social Podcast. And again, people have an assumption about what it's about.
- [18:43]
Maggie Patterson
Yes.
- [18:43]
Andrea Jones
And I do talk about tactics. I've already been over the past two to three years, moving more towards the conceptual topics, more towards, like, why are we even doing this in the first place kind of thing. And so the podcast will be renamed to the Mindful Marketing Podcast, if it hasn't been already by the time this episode comes out, we have a little.
- [19:04]
Maggie Patterson
Bit of insider knowledge.
- [19:06]
Andrea Jones
Yes. So Mindful Marketing. I've owned the domains, and I have several ideas about what to do with this concept. I've owned the domains for four years.
- [19:17]
Maggie Patterson
Oh, wow.
- [19:17]
Andrea Jones
Okay.
- [19:18]
Maggie Patterson
So this is.
- [19:18]
Andrea Jones
This is.
- [19:19]
Maggie Patterson
Evolution's been like, you're moving real. Like, you were like, I have an idea, but how does this become a thing? And I think that we so glorify the. I had an idea on Friday, bought the domain on Saturday, launched it on Monday, when. That's not the reality.
- [19:33]
Andrea Jones
No, it's not the reality. And I own Mindful Marketing Mastermind. Mindful Marketing Marketing Hub, School Academy. Like, I. I just own this Mindful Marketing name. I own a lot of domains, basically. And I have. I searched in my Google keep notes as I was exploring this, and I was like, I've been making little notes about this since 2019.
- [19:53]
Maggie Patterson
I love it. And just like, so everybody knows, I bought the domain, BS Free business a bazillion years ago, but it took me so long to realize, like, oh, that's actually your brand, Maggie.
- [20:06]
Andrea Jones
Yep. And, you know, I hesitated so much in switching it because it felt too soft. It felt too. It didn't feel like what people actually wanted. And if I look at my stats, my data, that proves it to be true. Like, my most watched YouTube videos, my most watched Instagram reels, they're. They're usually always very tactically driven. And so I've stayed in that lane for so long because I look at the data and I'm like, well, it's what people want to hear, but I'm tired of talking about it. And so part of this is like, I may lose my bragging rights of saying I'm in the top 100 podcasts. I may not get win awards for the podcast anymore or anything like that. And I'm at the point now where I'm beyond caring because I want to have the conversations I want to have. And it fits in line with my now clearer future vision of where I want to go in my business, which isn't tactically focused.
- [20:59]
Maggie Patterson
I love it. Okay, so you mentioned the agency and you know, maybe a potential exit. But in the time I've known you, like I watched you go from solo business owner to agency owner. And this is something a lot of people that are listening, they do struggle with. Like, should I have an agency? Should I say solo? Can you talk a little bit about what that journey was like for you of really going from I am a solo social media person to having that team and stepping into leadership?
- [21:27]
Andrea Jones
You know, I called myself a freelancer who just happens to have a team. For so long. I did not use the word agency because I personally still don't like the name. The word. I don't know if it really describes what we do. Again, I like there's like that dissonance there. But I hired my first team member because I tried to go on vacation and I was so freaking stressed out because social media doesn't stop and I wasn't sure if our like scheduled posts were going to go out or what if someone like left a comment and there was no response for a week. So I really started out of like necessity, like, I want to go on a vacation and have someone cover my back. Like this is where this all started. And then this was 2015 when I hired my first person. So just a year into business and then I started building out a team, still calling myself a freelancer who just happens to have a team all the way resisting in the title, resisting all the way to 2019. And then I started owning the word agency. And that journey was really challenging for me, the hiring the team part, because it's really hard to find good people to do virtual work. I really struggled with that. My leadership skills desperately needed help. I was not a great leader in those early days and so the journey has been bumpy. I'm very glad now though that I went through it because I can be more hands off. There's not an expectation of me to be more present, especially now that I have kids. My team handles all of our client calls, all of our client communication. I get to focus on high level strategy and they do all of the implementation. And so for this stage of my life, I am very happy that I have an agency because if I had a freelancer model, it'd be very challenging to take three months off to like have a baby. And so that. Yeah, but that journey was like omg. So hard. So hard. So I understand why people stay, you know, freelancer and don't shift into agency mode.
- [23:24]
Maggie Patterson
Well, I think something you said about the social media, like, every time I have had a client who. Social media is a big part. Social media management, ongoing. It never ends. How do I leave? I mean, if I was doing social media at all, I would 100% need, like, a team of people. Otherwise I would lose my mind.
- [23:43]
Andrea Jones
Yeah, and it's so repetitive too. I mean, even just think about your own marketing for anyone listening. It's like you post every day forever. It's like doing laundry. You just. There's always more laundry to do. Now do someone else's laundry, it's like, ew. No. Having the team helps break that apart a little bit so that you can at least maybe do the part that you enjoy a little bit more. And there's less pressure on everyone to show up every day, all the time.
- [24:12]
Maggie Patterson
True confession about my social media. I'm more organized about my laundry. I have an entire, like, schedule and system. Social media. I'm out here, like, just winging it.
- [24:22]
Andrea Jones
Yeah. And see, okay, so, Maggie, these are the conversations I want to have. I feel like that confession that you made is literally what half of the people do. And nobody wants to talk about it because all the social media strategists say, you gotta have a schedule, you gotta do this, gotta do that. And I'm like, but what if, like, just winging it is the plan? Like, what if that winging it works for you? I think that's great. I love it.
- [24:43]
Maggie Patterson
Winging it does. Like, if I had a client on the agency side who was trying to do their content, like winging it, I would be losing my mind. I would be like, what's wrong with you? We can't do this. But for me, so much of what I'm doing is commentary, so it needs to be timely. So if I did one of these, oh, my biggest pet peeve, write a year of social media posts with AI in an hour things, it would be flaming hot garbage and totally irrelevant. It would not be doing what I need my social media to do. It would not support my business. It would just be noise.
- [25:18]
Andrea Jones
Yes, 100%. And I think this is where this nuance of conversation is that I want to have is that there are certain types of business owners that were like, the reactionary, the commentary content. That is the content. And it, to me, it's actually easier to make. It's easier to make because you don't have to plan it, you just have to be observant and then say what you're going to say anyways.
- [25:42]
Maggie Patterson
And in case anyone's wondering, in human design, I am indeed a generator. I need to react to things. And I mean, it doesn't mean I react in the moment, but I observe, I look at patterns and then I'm like, okay, interesting. There's this pattern of people talking about descaling their business. What does that mean? Let me analyze it. I'm going to research it. Like it's thought out. But I mean, I do need time. I can't do it a year ahead. I just can't. I can't even do it six months ahead. I have a loose plan of what I'm going to talk about, but it always changes.
- [26:10]
Andrea Jones
Yeah, and see, I'm the opposite. Like I can do some reactionary content, but I find it very exhausting. And so I have to wait for the moments where I feel energized and then I batch create a bunch of content and then I don't create content again for like another month. And so that's what works for me. And so, you know, finding what works for you, I think is a beautiful thing.
- [26:31]
Maggie Patterson
Exactly. Like, I don't know, I'm supposed to post on social media today. Like I have a couple posts, I don't know which one I'll post. We'll see in a few hours what comes out. So he did mention, you know, kind of it's come up throughout the interview. You said, you know, how you're thinking about social media is really evolving. So can you share a little more of kind of what you're thinking about? Because I know we're all kind of feeling this. We love social media, but we hate it too. Like I feel like our relationship is a situationship at this point.
- [27:01]
Andrea Jones
Yeah, the situationship thing is solely true. I think I was talking about situationships and workshops like five years ago too. Like I've been. It's just a feeling we have. It goes back to like the history of social media. Bear with me for a SEC. But like 10, 15 years ago, we were not on our phones this much. No, we were not consuming this much content. Even if we wanted to watch Netflix, we'd have to order the DVDs and they were mailed to us. Unless you're in Canada. I think my Canadian friends, we missed out on that. But not when I lived in the us like it was not a thing. Right. We weren't spending this much time digitally consuming content. And so fast forward to today. We consume so much content online, from streaming services all the way to like watching TikTok series to. Yeah. To like scrolling through threads or Facebook or whatever. Like, we just spend a lot of time on our devices. So then combine that with the amount of content we're consuming and how particular we can be about it. It's reflecting back on us as content creators. In a sense, as business owners, we're creating content. We feel like our content doesn't match what's happening. And so we, we try so hard to like be something that we're not and then combine that with. Because there's so much content, it's so competitive. If I had a decision right now to pick up my phone and watch a piece of content, I don't know if I would necessarily go for the 10 second Instagram reel that says read my caption for three tips on how to blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that's not, that's not how I'd want to spend my time. Give me the drama or give me the like highly produced or give me the like person who's making a funny about the state of pop culture. Like, I want something a little bit different. And so all of that combined has made business owners on social media, like running a business on social, social media, very challenging when it comes to creating content. So my thoughts around creating content on social media have changed and this has been a very slight boiling the frog situation. Like, it's very been very slow and I recognize it's not about the content and so I'm producing less content myself. We produce less content for our clients. To me, it's more about conversation. It's about like dms, it's about social media being maybe a catalyst. Like maybe you found someone on LinkedIn, but then you went to their website and then you had a zoom call with them and now you're meeting them for coffee. Like, it almost has nothing to do with LinkedIn itself. LinkedIn was just like maybe where you happen to see that person. And so my thoughts on like how powerful social media can be or how much of a difference it can make have changed because the content itself is rarely the thing that's gonna make the huge, big deal difference. Instead, it's like the one on one conversations that have made the biggest difference for myself and for a lot of my clients.
- [30:01]
Maggie Patterson
Yeah. And I mean, I would a hundred percent echo that, especially because of some of the content I share. Like, I have people who literally will not like it because they don't want people to know they're Consuming it. Like, I've had these, but they will DM me. Absolutely. Like the. And you and I have talked about dark social before. Like dark social is where the activity is for me.
- [30:22]
Andrea Jones
Yep. Yeah. And even to me, dark social too is becoming so much broader. Like around the time we're recording this, a platform like Substack now has dms. Is that social media? So you and I are in a few, like, private communities together. Is that social media? Like, it feels very social. There's, there's a feed, there's dms, there's groups of people having conversations. We're creating content, we're collaborating. And so like my definition of social media itself is changing and I don't want to be like, put in a box of, oh, you talk about Instagram and TikTok. It's like, I mean, that's one thing that could maybe be helpful, but let's like zoom out a little bit and think about the bigger picture.
- [31:06]
Maggie Patterson
I love that because for me, I always. And I think this comes from like, I'm like a blogger from way back in the day.
- [31:12]
Andrea Jones
Right.
- [31:13]
Maggie Patterson
I was at some of the very first conferences where they were talking about social media when Gary Vee was doing, you know, wine tv.
- [31:21]
Andrea Jones
Yes.
- [31:21]
Maggie Patterson
And he's on stage and I like set up my Twitter account. It's like 2007. Right. So I mean, I've been at this stuff a long time. So I think for me, I always has been. Social media is like an extension of the content I'm creating on my platform. And I feel like right now we see a lot of people really struggling with. They've been creating for TikTok or Instagram and they have not, they're not creating that longer form content. So now they're like trying to reverse. I feel like it's a much harder evolution to go back, you know, from short to long. I think I've always done longer form stuff. Always. To me, like social media is that amplification. It's not the platform, it's not the core of my work and never would.
- [32:01]
Andrea Jones
Be a hundred percent. And I feel like this is where some of my fraudy feelings come from because my email list has like, is way larger than any social platform. Then we have like 18, 19,000 subscribers. Podcast, I think on a good month, 15,000 downloads. On a normal month, 8 to 10,000. So it's like that's more than most of my social media platforms. Like I am a long form content. Yeah. And so it's like part of me is like, I know social Media is my thing. I love social media and it's still not in the top two of my strongest marketing platforms. That's email and my podcast. And so, you know, it's just to.
- [32:40]
Maggie Patterson
Interject here, what's been shocking to me is I actually sent an, like a one question email to my list as part of my semi positive. Like, so many people find me from Instagram now. Yeah, that was shocking information. Sorry, continue.
- [32:55]
Andrea Jones
Yeah, no, it's the same. People do find me on social and it plays a huge role in growing my email list and growing my podcast. And they may also find me from someone else's social. They may find me from a collaboration, they may find me from this podcast. Like, it just like the bigger picture is so important there. And like, yeah, social media plays a huge role in that, but it's not the only role that's available. And I don't want people to think that that's what I believe. Yeah.
- [33:22]
Maggie Patterson
And I think that this is really in the spirit of like, evolutions and exits. And I think for everyone listening, really thinking about, for you, is there something you need to be changing up how you're doing it? And it's okay to evolve and it's okay to do it slowly being mindful of your capacity as a service business owner because you've got client work and other things on the go. And please, we want you to go have a life. Mindful marketing is what Andrea is all about. So, like, we want you to be mindful of those things and really thinking about, like, there is no one size fits all in any of this. And I think this is why the conversations like this are so, so important. Because at the end of the day, everyone's kind of got their own path to go on here.
- [34:01]
Andrea Jones
Yeah. And I think, like, if I could share one good thing that happened in this very slow path pivot, which I'm usually a very fast action taker. So to be able to, to have an idea and, like, want to change it. I would have renamed the podcast months ago once I decided to do it, but I was like, you know what, we're going to sit with this for a little while and think out loud. And that Thinking Out Loud series, I had a client who book a discovery call, became a client, and then on their first call with the team, they said, you know what, your transparency in that series. And they quoted something I said about being mindful. They were like, that's the reason we decided to work with you. And I was like, oh. So they came in through a referral they looked at my social. They signed up for my email newsletter, and then quoting something back to me, to me that, like, that's just an example of, like, this is working. Even though I'm changing things and it's super scary, super uncomfy, I can see that it's working.
- [34:56]
Maggie Patterson
That is the best example. Because the reality is, for us as humans, we want that behind the scenes. We want that transparency, and not in this celebrity entrepreneur, you know, very, like, curated vulnerability. Like, we want the real deal. And I think that that was something you were able to do is like, hey, I don't have the answers. Like, it's scary to admit you don't have the answers, but incredibly powerful. Because people trust you more when you're being truthful. Yep.
- [35:24]
Andrea Jones
In the world of all these Internet marketers who promise the moon, I'm like, what else can I say to. To make sure that I'm not lumped in with those people?
- [35:35]
Maggie Patterson
True story. I feel like that is literally my gig. All these.
- [35:39]
Andrea Jones
Right. That's it. Exactly. It's like, how can we make sure it's for sure, for sure. There's no confusion here. Yeah.
- [35:45]
Maggie Patterson
Like, I am not one of them. Please. No, absolutely not. All right, Andrea, where can people learn more about your school? I think that that would be great for some of the listeners. Your agency services. Fill us in.
- [36:00]
Andrea Jones
Yes. So my website, onlinedrea.com, that's D R E A. So onlinedrea.com has everything. And then check out the podcast, Mindful Marketing Podcast. It's coming soon. Formerly savvy social podcast. If you put that in, we SEO ed it, you'll still find us. Those are the two places where I hang out the most. And yeah, feel free to send me a DM anywhere because I love conversation.
- [36:23]
Maggie Patterson
Awesome. Thank you so much, Drea.
- [36:24]
Andrea Jones
Thanks, Maggie.
- [36:25]
Maggie Patterson
There are so many things that I was furiously writing notes when I had that conversation with Andrea, but there's two things for me that I really just want to drive home to wrap it up. I love what she said about setting boundaries and privacy in the digital age. That's been something that's really, really important to me. And as people always talk about being authentic or vulnerable online, they feel like they have to perform in a way that is not in service of their boundaries or their privacy. And I don't want anyone ever to feel like they have to do those things to be relevant. The other thing in conjunction with that is she talked about how we can be transparent and authentic to build trust with our audience without having to do those things. We, I think, underestimate how people can really sniff out the bs. So you showing up on social media, you showing up from a business perspective really relies on you keeping it real and just, you know, really embracing the BS Free way of doing things. And finally, I did appreciate her candor about going from a solo business owner to an agency because of the nature of social media. And I thought that that was a really interesting part of the discussion. So with that, if you want to learn more about Andrea and everything she does, you can find all the links to all her social media platforms and her school, her website, everything else. Her podcast@bs freebusiness.com blog I would love to hear from you. What did this spark for you? Hit me up on Instagram or threads at BS Free Business. I love to hear those takeaways. And as always, please share this podcast with a friend. Greater review us. Give us some love if you've been enjoying listening because. Because that will help us get in front of more people. And my theme for 2024 is Amplify. So if you can help me amplify this podcast, I will very much appreciate.