← The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
The Mindful Marketing Podcast (Formerly Known As The Savvy Social Podcast)
Unlocking Charisma in Marketing with Trang Nova
00:35:36
Want to sound more confident in your marketing? This episode is for you. How do some people seem naturally charismatic and engaging while others struggle on camera? The good news: speaking confidently is a skill—and today’s guest, Trang Nova, is...
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to episode number 346 of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. And today we're talking about a topic that I know a lot of you will find interesting, which is how do we be charismatic, have a great first impression, and just speak confidently and with authority in our marketing? We're going to dive into that conversation with today's guest, Trang Nova. But first, a word from our sponsor. Riverside is the all in one podcast recording and editing tool that I use for this right here show. I use it to edit not only the audio in the video, it is like Chef's kiss magical, making the entire process so, so easy. Plus, I love their magic AI clips. Their little AI robot in the background pulls out the most impactful moments of the episodes without me having to comb through and do it myself. Resizes them for social media. So those vertical videos you see on TikTok and Reels, those all come from Magic AI inside of Riverside. It's literally one click. It spits out 10 clips. I pick the best one, and away I go. Saves me so much time. If you want to get on the Riverside train, check it out today, the links in the show notes, and make sure to use my code DREA D R E A at checkout to get 15% off your membership. Trang, welcome to the show.
- [01:21]
B
Hi, Andrea. Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here and ready to have this conversation.
- [01:27]
A
I'm excited to have this conversation as well, because when I saw your application come through to be on the podcast, I was like, oh, yes, we need to talk about this, because there's so many people I know who are listening, who want to. Who want to do this. But first, I want to talk about fight. You talk a lot about finding your dream client and speaking to them in a way that's charismatic. So I want a definition from you of, like, what. What is your dream client? And how do you work with your clients to help them find them?
- [01:56]
B
I would actually like to start off by talking about the opposite of what a dream client isn't. And this one is something that I want to talk about because you know how Marketing101 is writing down that list of the ideal demographic and psychographic and then utilizing that to guide your marketing, to guide your. Your clients that you work with. Well, your. Your dream client. It isn't just matching the these traits with a list of psychographics or demographics. It's not just an ideal client who pays well and aligns with the offer. To me, your dream client is someone who is the walking embodiment of your mission. It's someone who, when you help them, it brings your mission to life. It brings your vision of your ideal world and what your life's legacy is for. And what that means is even if money were off the table, you would still want to help them. It's the type of person who you love to help, who your relationships become so deep that you could help them all day, every day. Time just fades away when you're working with them. And they are the entire essence of why you do what you do.
- [03:16]
A
Yes, I love that. And I feel like that's a really great place to start this conversation because once you're talking about that person you like, there's a natural energy that comes into what you're saying. But I know for a lot of people it's hard to translate that into our marketing. Right. It's a lot easier to do it when you're talking to someone one on one and you're excited about their work. How do we then take that excitement into marketing when we're, when we're doing something? Maybe, you know, filming a video by ourselves in our office, you know.
- [03:46]
B
Yeah, this one. I think there are so many schools of thoughts on how to do this, on how to market for, for our dream client. For me, something that I've found has worked really, really well and something that I love to share is to base your marketing around what is true for you, so yourself, especially five years ago, three years ago, and even what you're going through right now. Because a lot of people, they'll base their marketing around their dream clients, right? So they've got their list of psychographics, demographics. They will like, try to find this gap in the market that they, that they're going to serve. But then what if your idea of your ideal client isn't actually your ideal client? That you start working with them once they, once they sign up and then you find, actually this is not really who I want to be working with. Because sometimes what we think isn't actually what we experience and what we feel in our business. So instead, if we are marketing and we're sharing content based on our own stories, our own challenges, our own goals and dreams, what is authentically true and resonates with ourselves, like basing our marketing on that then will naturally magnetize our dream client. And sometimes we might even be surprised who comes to us and who inquires and who our prospects end up being. But then because we're being so aligns with ourselves in our marketing Then we find that those are our ideal clients after all.
- [05:24]
A
How do you see that showing up for yourself in your marketing? I'm curious how you approach this.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah, this. This has been a journey that I've been on over the last few years because I came from a background of a very clinical, science y professional profession. So I used to be a physiotherapist working in clinics. So I used to portray myself as very professional, very clean, very. Just straight in everything that I did. And then I started to attract those type of clients who were into that. Now, that's not necessarily not who I am, but it was just a small part of who I am and I was missing a big part of other parts of who I am. So when I started to showcase more of my silly side, my funny side, my, like a very animated, energetic side, and that's through reels, that's through, like, more conversational tone in my carousels or in my captions, then I started to attract people who were high achieving, driven, professional, but also, like, happy to come into my coaching sessions and have sessions that are not always completely, like, straight and clean and professional. Like, I love to coach the way that I'm speaking now. Like, I love to, you know, be animated, love to be energetic and, you know, go all. All around, like, go over time. We're just talking about this before because sometimes we're on a roll and I don't want to cut it off. So that's. That's who I am. And I show that in my marketing content.
- [06:57]
A
Yeah. I mean, honestly, for me, the biggest compliment is when someone comes into a coaching call with me and they're like, oh, my gosh. You're exactly like you are on the podcast. You're exactly like you are on social media. I'm like, thank you. Yeah, that's the point.
- [07:09]
B
Yeah, that. And you know what? That's actually like, such a big compliment because. Not. Because a lot of people aren't like that. Yeah, a lot of people, they disappoint their followers or their fans in real life because there is such a discrepancy between who they are online and who they are in real life.
- [07:25]
A
Yeah. Okay, so if someone's listening to this and they're like, I hear you. Yes. And I want to do that so desperately, but then the camera turns on and I forget all of my thoughts. What are you going to tell this person to, like, relax and let loose? What are your strategies for this?
- [07:39]
B
The first one would be to take a moment before you start rolling with the camera. To check in with yourself and ask yourself, why am I really doing this? Because for me, when it comes to feeling nervous versus feeling confident, a lot of it comes down to one main focus. And that is, is the focus on ourselves or is it on our audience? And I remember I had this eye opening moment when I was Preparing for my TEDx talk last year. I was of course, extremely nervous for this opportunity of a lifetime. So I was like preparing and reading all the books about it. And there was this book that I read by Lance Ored and he's written the book how how to Give the million view TEDx talk. And he talks about how when he did his TedX talk, he was the first speaker of the day. And for some people, they love that because it's over and done with. But for some people, that means that that morning they are completely in their head. They're nervous, they're going to open up the day. And he was that person. He was so anxious, feeling the pressure of being the first speaker of the day in the green room, pacing up and down, like barely able to catch his breath because he can feel his heartbeat, he can feel that his palms are getting clammy and sweaty. And then he had a moment where he had to stop and check in with himself. And he was like, hold on a second. I'm here because I have a gift to share with the audience. Like, I'm here because I get to help them and touch them and lead their lives better. I don't actually owe them anything. If anything, they owe me, right? In a way of I'm giving them something. So why don't I just go out there and focus on that instead of focusing on, am I going to go blank? Are people going to think something of me? And as soon as he had that, he noticed a shift in his body and he went instantly from being really anxious and nervous to calm and grounded. Because he gets to go out there now and he gets to, if anything, make people's lives better. Like, the worst is he is going to go out there and like, nothing changes, but then no one owes him anything. So that focus shift helped him to ground himself. And I find that as well because I did that before my TEDx talk. I've started doing that before. Different talks, different even like podcast interviews, if it's a big one that I'm really feeling the weight of. And that helps to focus on what I have to give versus myself. And instantly that reduces my nerves.
- [10:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I know for me too, I find it very helpful to Take the spotlight off of myself because I'm not actually not the kind of person who wants to be front and center. Like, I'm definitely more of, like, I'm the support role behind the scenes. But to run our businesses, we kind of have to put ourselves out there a little bit. And so it is helpful to kind of focus away from me onto other people. So that being said, what are your suggestions for someone when they're sitting down to create their, let's say, video marketing? How do they make that strong first impression?
- [10:57]
B
So, firstly, I, starting with the intentional focus of why am I here? Who am I helping? That already, I believe, has a shift in the way that we show up. Right from there, it comes down to a couple of things. So as a speaking coach, I focus on vocal presence. And a lot of people think that vocal presence is just about your voice, like the words that you share and your vocal delivery. But actually, your vocal presence is the combination of everything that you have when you show up and how that engages and how that's congruent with your message. So when you're showing up online, it's not just about your voice. It's about your facial expressions, it's about your body language, it's about your hand gestures. And a lot of people, once again, are like, oh, but you know, if I'm feeling nervous, if I'm feeling, you know, just not completely present that day, then how am I going to change that? Like, I'm going to be affected by how I'm feeling. But actually, it's a feedback loop. It's not just your confidence levels or the level of presence that affects your voice and your body language. It's also your voice and your body language that feeds back into how you feel. So instantly, if you want to create a change in your state and how you're feeling, then you can try some easy switches like this. Increase the volume of your speaking straight away. That's going to project you more. That's going to take up more presence, more space in people's ears. So increasing your speaking volume, not talking too fast, but not talking too slow either. Because if you're talking too fast, if you're talking too slow, then that's going to maybe show that you're jittery, you're a bit nervous, or you're thinking, or you're unprepared. If you're talking too slow. And the third one is allowing pauses in your conversation. So when you say something important, pause, because that is going to give your audience time to process what you've just said, but also showcase that you are comfortable to sit in the space of what you've just said. And body language is the same. So whether you're online or you're in person, it doesn't change anything. If you sit up taller or stand up taller with your shoulders back and down straight away, you're going to feel more confident and like, yeah. Just automatically, instantly doing it.
- [13:30]
A
For those people. Yeah. For those not watching the video, as soon as she said it, I was like, okay, shoulders down, head up.
- [13:36]
B
Reminder.
- [13:37]
A
Yes.
- [13:37]
B
Little check in. Like, instantly. Like, if everyone listening now try it. If you were to sit with your shoulders hunched, your chin down, making yourself smaller, instantly you feel like you're not as present. But if you sit or stand up tall, shoulders back, chin up, and when you're speaking, using big hand gestures, especially between the ideal zone of your hips to your shoulders, and really take up space, then you're going to immediately feel more present, more there for whatever it is that you are doing, whether you're recording a video, you're doing a podcast, having an interview, and then that feeds back into how you feel. It makes you feel so much more present, so much more confident in what it is that you're saying.
- [14:26]
A
Okay, I'm totally over here taking notes, y'all, because this is so good when I think about. So for context, I've been recording videos for 20 years, which is, like, wild to say that. I started my YouTube channel in 2007, so we're coming on 20 years. Wow. There's. Yeah, there's so many things that I've learned over the years, naturally. But it took me so long to figure out things like the pausing, things like, you know, even just looking at the camera and not looking at the reflection of myself in the preview screen. I think that does take a lot of practice and a lot of intentionality. And I'm glad that you called this out, but one of the ones I want to talk about is this idea of increasing the volume of your voice. What? Like, why does that work? Like, I'm not a naturally loud person. I would say, in fact, I'm the opposite. Like, I want to try it. But why. Why does that work? I want. I want to hear more.
- [15:27]
B
Yeah, of course. So I do want to preface this with, like, there's no one rule that fits every situation, right? And there's a saying that. Or a mantra that you can have that is along. Along the lines of this, be as big as the room. So reflecting your. Your vocal presence, your energy, your volume of your speaking to reflect the room that you'll be in. For example, right now, we are one on one. So I'm speaking at a different volume compared to if I were on stage to a thousand people. So there is that. And I do want to mention that it's not always about loud is better. We want to adapt according to the size of the room that we are in. But having said that, generally, of course, if we are speaking like this and we're just mumbling and we're not really confident to take up vocal space and audio space because, yeah, like, we're feeling really nervous, that's going to be picked up by the other person because when you drop your volume, you also often start to not articulate your words as well. And then you start to change your body language because it's all linked, it's all joined together. So straight away, now that I'm talking softer, I'm like bringing down my shoulders. Versus, if you project your voice at a level that's appropriate for the room that you are in, your articulation improves. Posture improves. Hand gestures also increase to reflect the volume of your speaking. And then suddenly you've created this essence of an entire vocal presence that captivates other people's attention versus them, kind of overlooking you or like, you know, doing something else on their screen while you're speaking on zoom. So it's. It's one tool that you can use that will automatically affect and influence the other components of vocal presence. And in simple terms, it increases the space that you take, but not in a physical way, because this is audio. It's going to take up more space in an audio form.
- [17:36]
A
Yeah. What I love about all of the things you suggested is that they're so tangible. Right. These are the things that we can listen to this podcast episode take away and try right away and see immediate results from that. What are some of the other things that make us more charismatic? Or what are some of the traits that make people more charismatic when they're creating content for their marketing?
- [18:02]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And before I answer that, Andrea, I want to actually touch on what you just said about these being tangible. That's what I love about speaking. And a lot of people think that to be a good speaker, to be a good creator, a natural content creator, you have to be born this confidence, charismatic person. But speaking is a skill. And just like any skill, like riding a bike or playing the piano, it's something that anyone can learn and master with some practice. So that's why when I'm. When I'm working with clients. The results can be quite immediate because it is very tangible. It can be very quantifiable. It's not these invisible traits that people have that you can't put your finger on. No, they're actually very tangible. So charisma is the same. A lot of people can identify someone in their life who's charismatic. So if you were to pause for a moment, think of people in your life, you'll probably be able to identify someone who's very charismatic. But the part that challenges people is being able to pick out why they were charismatic. But research has shown that charisma is made up of two main traits. In fact, these two main traits make up 82% of your charisma. So if you work on these two traits, you'll already be 82% better at leaving an impression. These two traits are warmth and competence. So warmth are the cues that you give someone to make them feel like they can trust you straight away. If I were to come onto this call, Andrea and I have a big smile. My, my, I've got open posture with my arms open, my palms are up. Then straight away, you'll feel safe in my presence. You'll feel like that you can trust me more. Straight away, we're going to be friends. But that's not the only part of marketing that you want to get right. Right. The other part is the competence. Competence are the cues that you give someone to show them that they can rely on you. So showing that you are credible, that you are authoritative and you know what it is that you're talking about. So ways that you can be more. You can show more competence. Is eye contact. What we were just talking about before, and yeah, this is the big thing when we're doing Zoom and online videos. Too many people, they look at the screen, but you actually want to be looking at the actual camera. And I know that might seem obvious, but a lot of people do it. And here's the thing as well that I'll add in. If you're having a conversation with someone on Zoom.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah.
- [20:51]
B
If you're having a live. If you're doing an Instagram Live, for example, where there are two people, make sure that you're looking at the camera not only when you are speaking, but when you're listening to the other person, which is challenging because when the other person's talking, you want to look at them and, yes, look down at them. But, you know, 40% of the time, at least look up to the camera to show that you're Actually looking at the other person because that's what it's going to be perceived on the other end. The other part of that as well that I want to mention about eye contact is you don't want to stare into the other person's eyeballs the whole time that they are talking. Eye contact is good, eye contact is good. But if we are staring into their eyeballs the whole time, it can actually seem a little bit inauthentic, which is the opposite of what you'd think. So the main things, as long as you look into their eyes and you make eye contact at the end of the sentences of what it is that you were saying. So when you finish your sentence, you look into their eyes and that shows complete confidence and conviction in what it is that you're saying. So that's one part of competence, shows that you're confident, confident and clear in your message. The other thing is posture. So shoulders down is going to really help as well because then if your shoulders up and you're showing that you're tense, then you're going to lack that credibility that you want to portray to the other person.
- [22:21]
A
Yeah. Oh, this is brilliant. I love this. Okay, I have two follow up questions because there are two things that came to mind as you were talking. So the first thing is you mentioned this word authenticity and how, you know, staring into someone's eyeballs may feel a little bit inauthentic. But I want to talk about this line in this balance between showing up online line authentically and confidently because, you know, sometimes we're, I don't feel so confident, but I still want to show up in a confident way. So how do we balance this idea of being authentic, but also kind of like putting all these tips and tricks into the mix so that we do appear more confident, maybe even more confident than we actually are?
- [23:04]
B
Great question. Authenticity is one that we, you know, that gets talked about a lot, especially in the world of social media and marketing. To me, two things. The first thing is because a lot of the listeners are coaches or solopreneurs or creators, there is an expectation to show up online a lot, right? Like post every day, show up on stories every single day. For me, I think that's actually changed. And I know that you talk about this where the landscape changes fast and the advice of showing up every day, I don't think that is necessarily relevant anymore because there, there is so much content. You're actually better off focusing on the quality of your energy when you do show up because that gets picked up by People versus just showing up every day for the sake of it. So my first, my first rule is I'll only show up on stories when I genuinely feel like it. And that might not be every day. Like, there are days where I'm at home, in my home clothes, sans makeup, not looking at my best, but I am working. And those are my days that I may or may not show up on Instagram. Not to say that you can't show up without makeup, but like, that's just an example. Other days, on days where I'm coaching, on days where I'm doing podcasting, I am lit up, like, I am energized. I'm already in the zone of talking and I can just keep talking, as you could probably tell. And that's when I'll be like, all right, I've got these ideas. I want to show up, I want to, I want to talk. So that's, that's the first one. The second one is having a look at what authentic actually is to you. Because sometimes people think that, and this is depending on how you define these terms to me, there is no difference between confidence and authenticity. Sometimes people think it's like two different things. It's like, oh, if I, if I'm like showing up and like doing these body language changes and these vocal changes, then I'm not being authentic anymore. But actually I think they're the same thing. I think confidence is authenticity. And the reason I think that is confidence to me is being aware of and acknowledging who you are and all that you've achieved. Right? Like you're proud of who you are. You, you want to showcase that. But what comes with that self awareness is also self awareness of your weaknesses, of things that you may not be so good at. So it's actually having both. It's being confident to acknowledge and own all of who you are, the strengths and the weaknesses. And when we are have that kind of well rounded awareness, then we can be proud of ourselves, but also have the humility to share that we're not perfect and we don't have it all sorted. And that is authenticity to me, versus arrogance, which is one tier, like the one tier above where people think they're, you know, they're, they've got it all, they've got it all sorted out, they know everything and that they are superior to others. That's not necessarily confidence, that's arrogance where you're like, yep, I'm the best, I'm better than everyone else. And then that comes across in any interaction. So authenticity Comes from being confident, knowing all that you are, all that you've achieved, your strengths, what you. What you do really well, and then also having the humility to embrace that you're. You don't have it all sorted out and you've got these weaknesses and you've got times that you've failed or like, seemingly failed in the past.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah, I love this distinction between confidence and arrogance, because I think there is an assumption, especially those of us who post our lives online, we see everyone else posting their lives online. Right. There is this assumption of arrogance, I think, sometimes with some of it. And we are kind of like, playing with that edge a little bit. But I love this idea of authentically showing up in a way that's confident but still showing the flaws and the bumps along the way. Okay, so my second question is really geared towards my introverts, which I put myself solidly in the introvert category. It took me years to get to the point where I feel comfortable enough to do video online, but even now, speaking in person, I would rather not. Like I do it right, but to me, it is not fun at all. I get the armpit sweats like, hella crazy. So, yeah, it's not for me. What do we. What do we say to the introverted people? The people who are maybe shy or the people who, you know, are maybe hesitant to put themselves out there like this? What advice do you have for them?
- [28:02]
B
Yes, I'm so glad that you bring this up, because I also put my hand up to say that I am an introvert as well. Although my Myers Briggs type indicator says I'm like 49%. So I'm like, right on the, you know, the borderline between the two. What I, What I say is, hey, if you're an introvert, embrace it, because you don't have to be an extrovert to be an engaging and captivating creator or a marketer or a speaker. You really don't have to be Brene Brown, one of the best speakers, one of the most famous authors. She's an introvert. And if you've watched her TED Talk, you'll see that when she goes on stage. And this is why people love her so much. She's. She's very friendly. She's. She's very authentic. She's very her. She's got filler words in her TED Talk. But that's the thing that's actually intentional because she's on there as the archetype of the friend. She doesn't have to be loud and rah. Rah. And in your face. To be able to spread a message effectively, she just has to be her. So that's what I say. Like, you don't have to be like, that person that you imagine as being, you know, really animated and really loud and always out and about. Instead, why don't you focus on the times that you are showing up and do that really well. So if you are speaking, if you are creating content, whatever it is, then show up and give it your all. Then honor the fact that you need to go home and be in silence and solitude for the rest of the day. That's okay, right? You know, that's not going to. That's not. That's not going to stop you or hold you back from being able to captivate and create an impression when you're out and about or when you are online. It's just the fact that you do need to honor that. You need to recover in silence as well.
- [30:09]
A
Yeah, that's totally me. And it's also why I find reading to be so restorative for me, because it's a very quiet entertainment activity. Right. And so I find that I need that, too, so that I can go out and, like, do this through the work that I do. What piece of advice or a thought is something that you want to leave to those people who are listening? Maybe something I didn't ask you.
- [30:34]
B
I want to say this research has shown that when there is a discrepancy between what you were saying versus how you were saying it, it's actually 93% of your message that comes from how you were saying it. So what I mean by that is our words, of course they matter. But when there's a discrepancy between our words and our body language or the way that we are saying it, the way that we deliver our message becomes more important. 93%, in fact. So if I were like, to you, if I were on a discovery call, maybe, and I'm on Zoom and talking to a client, and I'm like, yeah, so that's $6,000. And for anyone who's just listening, I've got three fingers up, but I've just said $6,000 right there and then I've probably eroded your trust because you're now confused about what I'm actually saying. And at the same time, you're going to be more inclined, whether you realize it or not, to follow my body language over my words, because anyone can say anything. But your body language doesn't lie. The way that you deliver your facial expressions Your vocal delivery does not lie, so you're going to be more inclined to believe my body language. So what I want to say is if you're a content creator, a coach, you want to be a visible leader in your industry, then please work on your delivery, not just what it is that you're saying, because that is arguably just as important, if not more than the words.
- [32:15]
A
Oh, my gosh, that was so good. I love this. I love this so much. And you've given me homework to do for those people who are listening who are like, yes, I need this level of support. I know that you have a way that we can work with you. Can you tell us a little bit more about the speaker's edge speaking analysis?
- [32:35]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So this is something that I am more than happy to offer to the listeners. It is actually a one on one speakers analysis where we hop onto a Zoom call for 30 minutes and I want to get to know you and hear you speak, hear you introduce yourself and talk about your business and talk about your offer. And that way I can give you some feedback on what your speaking personality is and then how you can optimize and strengthen your delivery to amplify who you really are and what you have to offer. And I don't offer this to everyone because of course, if I were doing, you know, 30 minute sessions with, with people all day, every day, I wouldn't be able to get any other work done. But I'm more than happy to offer that to the listeners. So if anyone wants to have their speaking analyze and to understand more about their speaking personality and ways they can improve how they show up, then, yeah, I'm sure the link will be in the podcast description and then we can get to know each other.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah, y'all hop on this. This is an amazing value. Wow. Thank you. Okay. Onlinedrea.com 346. That's 3, 4, 6. Where you can get the link to that and all of the links to hang out with. Trang Online. Where's your favorite. What's your favorite social platform or online community to spend time on?
- [33:56]
B
I'm going to say Instagram, but LinkedIn is kind of making moves.
- [34:02]
A
Yeah.
- [34:03]
B
Like over the last few months, I've made an intentional effort to spend more time on there. And I'm like, I'm a fan. Like, I'm. I'm spending time on there every day now. So, yeah, either Instagram or LinkedIn.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah, I could definitely see LinkedIn for you, especially with their new emphasis on video. I could definitely see you over there. Okay, cool. So I'll put both of those links. Well, I'll put all of the links in the show notes online dre.com346 trang thank you so much for being on the show today.
- [34:27]
B
Thank you. I've really enjoyed this and I'm really looking forward to hopefully giving value so that the audience can take us away and implement it straight away.
- [34:37]
A
Yes. I love that so much. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning in to another episode of the Mindful Marketing Podcast coming up in the Mindful Marketing Lab. If you're not in the lab, why not come on in and join us? The water is fine. We're talking about keyword research this month with our special guest, Meg Casebolt. I will also be doing my monthly what's the Scoop Episode where I will be going live and giving you the scoop on all of the marketing trends, the dates you need to know, and I'll be sharing some strategies that I see working really well out there in the wild. So if you want to know what's working here now and today, you got to be in the Mindful Marketing Lab. You can find the link to that in the Show Notes as well. Next week, I'll be talking to Anish Patel about the power of podcasting and content repurposing. Stay tuned for that. I'll see you then. Bye for now.