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The Money with Katie Show
A Big Announcement, the Realities of Burnout & Semi-Retirement, and Buying Gold
01:19:00
An update on the future of The Money with Katie Show.
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- [00:03]
A
All of the water levels around the.
- [00:04]
B
World rise by, let's say, five feet.
- [00:06]
A
You think that people aren't going to just sell their homes and move? Just one small problem. Sell their houses to who? Ben fucking Aquaman? Welcome back to another Money with Katie show Rich Girl Roundup. I am of course Katy Adi Tossan, and every few episodes my executive producer Henna and I sit down to discuss the listener questions, follow up thoughts and other material that just doesn't make the cut for its own full length episode. So, Hannah, where would you like to start today?
- [00:43]
B
Hi Kitty. Let's start with the announcement that went out this morning in the newsletter. It's a pretty big announcement.
- [00:48]
A
Yes. So if you are a newsletter subscriber, you already know this, but at the end of this year, I am bringing Money With Katie back to its humble independent roots and I am buying the brand back from Morning Brew. So this is a pretty momentous occasion for me, partly because it gives me the ability to step back and just think a little bit more critically about what I want to spend my time working on moving forward. I think I have a tendency to just like do everything, which exists in constant tension with my other tendency to not be able to like half ass stuff. So this creates kind of a negative end result of me constantly putting myself in situations where I feel spread thin and then complaining incessantly about it. And so I'm going to stop doing that. And I realized I needed to kind of take a step back and prioritize and doing that requires some space. So the primary implication of this, the primary change, is that I will be taking a hiatus from the Money with Katie show beginning in January 2026. So our final episode of this like three year long, never ending season will air on December 31st. Very fittingly. I will have more to say about this decision as the year comes to an end and maybe in that actual episode. But for now, if you are a listener of this show and you want to continue to hear from me every Wednesday beyond the end of the year, I am still going to send out my weekly email until the robots replace us all. So if you aren't yet a subscriber, we will put a signup link in the show notes for that.
- [02:21]
B
Yeah, it feels like the end of an era. I know we're gonna have a much larger conversation, but I will say I think people know that this show has changed our lives in so many ways and I particularly for me, and I'm beyond grateful for the experience, but because I too am unable to half ass stuff. I think it's been increasingly clear, at least to Katie, me, and even Nick, that we've been burning the candle at both ends for a while and that really culminated with both of us being sick and or feeling unwell for the majority of this year. I'm glad we're we're choosing to take an indefinite hiatus on our own terms.
- [02:55]
A
That's right. So more to come on that I have more to say, but for now just wanted to give everybody the heads up that that change is coming. And like I said, subscribe to the newsletter if you are not already and you would like to continue to hear me every week on Wednesdays. So why don't we talk about our first episode.
- [03:14]
B
Yeah, to kick us off our first episode from this batch. Your workplace is instrumental for a better future. Here's how with Eric Blanc, a funny comment from Chell Kelsey M. Who said this felt like newsies erasure. Not one mention to which I responded, I don't think Katie is a musical girly and people were laughing at that. Whereas I on the other hand torture my husband weekly by belting out Hamilton and Rent and wicked.
- [03:37]
A
Yeah, well, I mean I I have subjected all of you to my excellent singing from time to time, so why don't you all just be thankful that I'm not singing show tunes, okay? And then we heard from a listener named Bingus who wrote and I I actually cannot believe that this they said this and Ben Shapiro are my favorite podcasts. I like how you both make keen observations about the erosion of our social fabric with your emphasis on workers building empathy and cooperation through organic social exposure and his emphasis on building community more generally through churchgoing. One question I have given the recent period of sustained difficulty in the tech job market is whether you or Professor Blanc see a path forward for white collar workers specifically, specifically those in tech. I think I, I this one, this. I. I'm. I'm at a loss for words. This is the sort of comment where I'm like, wow, there really are some people out there who like have such a specific sensibility that they can listen to two people with completely different outlooks on the world and still get value from both of them. And I think that that was just like kind of blew my mind a little bit. But anyway, on this question, great timing. So I am working on an essay about this subject at the time of this recording that will be, I guess by the time you hear this, it'll be out in today's newsletter when this episode goes live that is attempting to understand the role of AI in the hiring slowdown and then more broadly the role that it is playing in our economy right now and in the story of our economy right now. So to give some background, one piece that initially influenced me was from Derek Thompson that included some interesting jobs data which found that since data collection began in 2002, there's never been a larger displacement disparity between equity prices so the stock market performance and job openings. Now, Derek argued that it was actually the interest rate hikes in 2022 that are creating a little bit of a weaker job market and that the timing of the inception of ChatGPT and other LLMs is more of a coincidence. The other piece that inspired me was a video from Hank Green which walked through some of the circular financing oddities between OpenAI, Nvidia and these other AI adjacent companies where when you look at kind of how they're all putting money into each other, it's sort of giving mortgage backed securities. Those companies, though their share prices have accounted for something like 75% of market growth since 2022, which is just astounding. So when it comes to white collar workers like those in tech and honestly like the economy at large, it feels like AI and what is going to come of it is very central to this conversation. And one thing that I want to emphasize, and I think Eric would agree, that the principles of worker power apply no matter your wage. So in the short term, I think the interest rate cuts that are assumed to be coming today, October 29th, we'll see if that happens, will probably spark or contribute to a little bit of an uptick in hiring. But in the long term, I think the principles of worker ownership and solidarity are going to be critical for moving through whatever changes AI brings so that workers actually have a voice in how this stuff is implemented and used. You probably heard Eric talk about this a little bit in the episode, but there are groups of employees at companies like Google who are beginning to informally organize with one another. So I think the seeds for those changes are there.
- [07:11]
B
Yeah, I don't know if you saw that video that Grace Blakely shared or she made the other day that was just like, these seven companies are funding the economy, but they're all just funding each other. But my friend actually is going through a round of layoffs primarily due to AI, and they were able to start a union and fight for severance. So they were able to go from two weeks to seven weeks of pay.
- [07:33]
A
Wow.
- [07:34]
B
And I was just like really in awe of how they're doing. It it was particularly good timing with Eric joining the show. So then we had Spike, who shared a very insightful and informative episode. I can remember anti union propaganda since I first started working at 17. My local grocery store made you watch hours of videos about if someone comes up to you with a pamphlet run or how it's your duty to the company to stay away. I was super young and didn't understand any of it, but now I reflect thanks to this episode and realize how gross that is. So many places I worked at, even at my current job will try to shame you for sharing what you make.
- [08:07]
A
Yep.
- [08:07]
B
And then Spike followed up with like they added to another comment. I also wanted to add that I work in a factory alongside union workers. I work in the office, but I admire that they have the power to speak up for fair wages. Last year we received no raises or bonuses, yet our company has been doing well. This year the union has been working hard on better contracts. I only know this because I hear my boss complain about it or see signs. I also wish this conversation touched upon union news, which is something I often hear the floor workers worry about. So Spike's comment reminded me a lot of that media that we see in our upbringing and how influential it can be. And you kind of dissected this earlier in our previous episode about culture influencing policy and vice versa. But the earliest memory that I have around unions in an episode of Sister Sister, where the local grocery store strikes and the main characters were understanding what it meant to be in solidarity as a worker or what it meant to be a scab. And so Katie, I would love to know, do you have a. Do you have a first memory around unions?
- [08:59]
A
You know, I did watch Sister Sister, but I have like no recollection of that episode whatsoever.
- [09:05]
B
I think it was season one.
- [09:07]
A
Okay. I, like, I have no memory of this. I don't actually remember seeing unions represented at all in media that I watched. So maybe I was just like clocked out. But I will say I think it's interesting once you get involved in organizing spaces to see how messy the democratic process like a truly democratic organization can be. It is not a silver bullet, that is for sure. And that was something that I really, I wanted to get across in the episode that like, I'm not saying that this is some panacea that like you're going to join a union and all your problems are going to be solved. That's just kind of the first step, step toward building actual leverage in the fight for something better. So on Sunday, I went to support the Starbucks workers up in Fort Collins. And they were doing a practice picket at like one of the most popular stores in town that gets a lot of people driving by. So Sidebar Starbucks workers going to be striking in waves this fall. Don't be a scab. Don't cross the picket line. And there were some workers who were at this practice picket, but it was actually mostly community members. It was community members. It was other union. There were some people from city council that were there. There was somebody who's running for attorney General of Colorado, who's a labor rights attorney. And because the union busting has gotten so egregious, workers were scared to join. Basically, the district manager was sitting inside the store and just like watching all of this unfold and kind of watching the workers as like sort of an intimidation tactic of like, you better not go out there. And the spouse of one of the workers who was inside on their shift said that they staffed up double the workers that day because they were so worried about people walking out and not having enough people to basically work. So when you talk about that cultural shift and the importance of organizing becoming something that people see as worth doing and supporting and engaging in and understand how it like really is the only meaningful way forward right now, a hundred percent, absolutely. So we also heard from our favorite boomer complimentary, who said this. This is Bill S. I enjoyed the episode with Eric Blanc. The idea of worker to worker connection to build momentum toward organization could be huge. I live in coal country and have seen the direct impact unions can have on people's lives, both good and bad, but mostly good. One of the greatest things organization brings is a sense of community, of being in something together. On the note of community, I would recommend that you interview Mel Dorman, the author of Banking on your Neighbor. Mel's book is a great roadmap for building a real estate business while building community at the same time. She works outside the typical real estate finance industry and keeps the money in her community that would otherwise go to the big banks. But one of the most interesting things she has done is to serialize her book in a podcast form for free. Anyone can listen to her ideas on building wealth and community for absolutely nothing. I would love to see a collection of authors and speakers who have usable methods to help people elevate their existence. Follow her example and give those who need it most the opportunity to learn what to do to help build something that will lift themselves up, their families and their communities. True socialism in the best sense of the word. As always, thanks for the effort you put into your work. You and Hannah really have created something great. Thanks, Bill. Love you. Thanks, Bill.
- [12:26]
B
I was literally gonna say love you, Bill. I would also recommend Libby with your local library card. I think that's a really great way to support your local library. I know at least a couple different libraries across the nation will also let you join their Libby network, even if you're not a local resident. But the majority of the books I read every year, which is probably like more than 30, are from the library app. So another good way to get that kind of value for free. And then our final comment on this episode came from Vanessa S. Who said, the Red Scare stuff has been so deeply embedded into all US minds. It's the mini cult a lot of people are almost unknowingly a part of. Katie, I just, I know I'm like chomping at.
- [13:05]
A
I'm like, let me tell you about the, the mini cults. Yeah, yeah, no, but I think the fact that Vanessa said many people are unknowingly a part of this. They have bought into this rhetoric without even realizing or recognizing it as ideology as such. So like I said, culture eat strategy for breakfast or whatever. And one woman who was leaving the Starbucks drive thru yesterday during the picket stopped, rolled down her window and shouted like Matcha in hand, why don't you try owning a company? Then you'd understand, like, well, first of all, I got news for you come January 1st. But I'm like, all right, first of all, sorry, I can't hear you with the boot in your mouth, but unless she is secretly Lauren Sanchez in Karen Drag, I cannot understand, understand this point of view. I cannot emphasize enough just how much cultural brainwashing is required to cause somebody to identify more with the interests of a multi billion dollar multinational corporation than of like the people who live down the street from you and pour your coffee. But we start imbibing that ethos, I think, from a very, very young age. And I am really interested in what causes people to eventually unlearn and reject those ideas for themselves. They're very convenient beliefs, right? Like you have to make people think that their interests are more aligned with the CEO of Starbucks who earns $96 million, than with their neighbors. Because that is where widespread support and acceptance of the status quo comes from. If you can make regular upper middle class people who maybe have a couple million dollars in the bank believe that when we're talking about wealth inequality, we're talking about them, that's a really, really effective means of keeping a lid on that dissatisfaction with the status quo. We will get right back to this rich girl roundup. After a quick break, one of the best money moves I made stopped trying to figure everything out alone. As I made progress and got closer to my overall goal, I started to second guess whether I was missing any anything like was I as on track as I thought? Were my investment allocations appropriate for me? This is the plague of the self taught personal finance nerd. Does it sound familiar? Then I worked with Domain Money's certified financial planners and I got the peace of mind that I needed. They led me through a strategic restructuring of my asset allocation, my cash cushion, and they even helped me pinpoint the perfect timing for an eventual home purchase. And it turned out it was actually later than I thought. What I love is that they don't give cookie cutter advice. They actually look at what you're trying to achieve. Then they optimize everything around that. Plus they use a flat fee structure. You know exactly what you're paying right out of the gate. You can hear from Domain Money's head of financial planning, Adriana Adams in my episode with her from September 3rd called a CFP on outdated advice, jumping social classes and why money mindset matters. Ready to stop guessing and start winning with your money? See what the experience is like for yourself by booking a free strategy session. To see if Domain Money is a good fit. Head to moneywithkatie.com domain money to book your session. That's moneywithkatie.com domainmoney I'm a real client of Domain Money via Money with Katie. I receive compensation and have an incentive to promote Domain Money. See important disclosures at DMNMNY co X okay, welcome back. We are moving on now discussing the episode that brought in the most feedback by far, how you can enjoy a mini retirement every two years without risking your career with Jillian johnsroot so I would say there were essentially two camps in the reception of this episode. One praising the idea of meaningful time off throughout your career and like feeling inspired by this. And then the other camp pushing back on the elements of how realistic this really is. So to double down and prove to all of you that it's realistic, I'm quitting my job. So there.
- [17:32]
B
Okay. You are so unserious. I understand both sides of where the critiques and pushback was coming from. So let's start with the critiques. We have the black pen 93 who wrote great episode. As always, this feels really out of touch for me, but I'm just not at that level. Yet some people live check to check and quote, just budget for it. Doesn't always pan out, but I guess that's just life, right? And similarly, Laura W. Chimed in and said the concept is interesting but not possible for most people. As someone with three weeks vacation and two more at Christmas, it is in my contract that I cannot take all five together. Most of her points don't apply to entry or mid level employees. There's so much of a rose tinted glasses view in her examples. It's beyond out of touch. The example of employee replacement costs for a cfo. But it's cheap to replace the mid level and below employees also who would only spend that little during their break. And so I just want to put PTO aside for a moment, but there are two notes that I'd add here on spending and this idea of quote, just budgeting for it. And the first being that Jillian's able to pull this off because I think she spoke to this in the episode. She keeps her costs relatively low throughout the year. So it's definitely a trade off you have to be willing to make. And in my opinion it feels more like, like a lifestyle choice than a one off decision that you would try. And I think that's an important distinction. And then the other note around who spends that little during their break. I often travel like 10 plus times a year and I am not spending $1,000 every single time I travel. So while I do think it takes intention and strategies to be mindful of costs, it is actually absolutely possible to do what Jillian recommended. And I also think if you're taking an extended break every two years, you don't feel the need to ball out every single time then how you might if you're taking a nice two week vacation once a year. That's. I think she was talking about Paris like 5,000 or $8,000 or a major trip every decade. So just wanted to throw that out there.
- [19:20]
A
Yeah, I mean when I read that she lives in what, 1500 square feet with five kids, I was like, oh, you like really value being able to take time off. Like that is a serious prioritization that you have made in your life because there are always going to be cost benefit analyses and trade offs when you're figuring out how to structure your life and like design that for yourself. And so that kind of drove home to me like, oh, she is definitely sacrificing in other areas to make this possible. So I completely understand that it could feel out of touch, but I do like Hannah how you described it as like a more wide ranging lifestyle shift as opposed to just like a one off thing. We also got another comment around this feeling out of touch from Songmay and they added, what about people with important roles at work that cannot afford to take a month off? Lol. A month in tech is a lot of falling behind. And then Sami responded to them and said well they did address that directly though. So yes, this is something Gillian directly addresses in the book called Retire Often that I wanted to talk to her about in the episode because I, I get that, I understand that pushback and I also think that she had a pretty compelling explanation for why the month off. If you are quote unquote, very critical to your organization, like why you actually have more leverage than you might think. And I think that was kind of the other split, right. It's people who are entry or mid level and feel like they would actually be easily replaced and so they don't have a ton of leverage to negotiate something like this and makes them feel cautious about trying to take a sabbatical. And then those who feel so critical to their org that they, they don't think that it's like would ever be realistic to get a month off. One thing that jumped out at me from the defensiveness that I felt when I first heard about this concept and I think saw echoed in some of these responses is that it does feel quite American frankly to be like one month off. How fucking dare you. Like that is unreasonable. Even those of us who may identify in the abstract sense as like anti capitalist are like offended by the idea of not working for a prolonged period of time. And so there are certainly legitimate financial and logistical barriers that need to be overcome. But for me it was actually my emotional aversion and discomfort with the idea that clued me into the fact that it might be interesting to explore it further. And more than that, that by the time I finished her book she had more or less convinced me that this was actually something that had the potential to be quite transformative and would be worth at least trying to work through some of those financial and logistical barriers. I think for people who want to retire early, especially the idea of getting in those practice runs actually makes a ton of sense. I think it's extremely practical to test run your retirement before you go in with both feet.
- [22:21]
B
Yeah. And I actually, I had in my own notes like American culture question mark when I heard a lot of this stuff, so we can come back to that. But it is funny for me, I actually did not even think at all about the like, I can't not work for a month. I was like, no, I'm good to not work. How do I, how do I financially figure this out? The other piece, though, I would say is like, it also sounds kind of like a mindset shift for someone when they have to consider an important role that they can't afford to take time off of or like being okay with falling behind in the world of AI for a bit. I think a lot of that is internal work you have to do to let go of the idea that you need to be caught up with everything, that you can't afford to take any time off. But as I said to you, Katie, in the recording, I was like, the idea of not having something else lined up after the break is what would stress me out the most. To the point where like, I would actually be worried about not having income while I'm supposed to be enjoying my break. And I know Jillian gave some suggestions on how to network while you're away and how to work with your current employer if it's short term enough. But I think sometimes it's, it's a little bit hard to be like, everything's going to work out fine, especially in this job market. So yeah, that seemed to be echoed by Danny who said, it's a nice thought, but with the costs of mortgages and healthcare, I just don't see this being realistic. Along with the fact that this great depression economy has driven me and many others to be job huggers, I would have a hell of a time getting another job as good as my current one if I left. It was a one way door to get where I am and my career is very competitive. One way door is really interesting way to phrase that.
- [23:49]
A
So is job huggers. I hadn't heard that phrase before. I love that she's like this great Depression ass economy. I'm like, that's hysterical. No, I completely hear that. I think that that is a really, really valid critique of this concept in our current economic environment. I guess what I would say is this is something where the job market is not always going to be like this. These things are cyclical. And it could be interesting to think about the fact that, okay, this year and the way the job market is right now, no, I'm not pulling the rib cord. But there will be a time when the labor market is working in my favor where I feel more comfortable and more confident and like there are more job openings again. And when that time comes, I want to have my strategy figured out. The thing that I'm going to say to get, to get out of work, figure it out and the money set aside and like ready to be deployed. So I think that this is something that you could theoretically begin planning for, even if you know that it's not going to happen imminently. So if you are planning to take time off short term from work and you are interested in the FMLA aspect of it all, we had a critique as well as a little tip here from Brittany S. Who said the most likely route for most people to do this is taking fmla. But it's mentioned as just an afterthought here. Also, if you can do this starting in your 20s, how is it possible to build up enough professional capital where it would be more expensive to replace you by then? This form of the mini retirement idea never quite adds up to me, and not just because we're expected to be hiking in Spain or whatever, I. E. Just another way to be productive with a big smiley face, which I'm like, you know what? Heard for me personally, the, like every two years starting in your 20s I think was intended to be more of an example of how this could play out. I didn't really feel the need for this though. I think until I entered my 30s, I feel like I turned 30 and all of a sudden my whole body changed. And I don't know if that was in my head, but I think I, I felt less capable of just like rebounding quickly.
- [25:54]
B
In her 30s for less than a year.
- [25:57]
A
I've been, yeah, 10 months. 10 months. I'm like, guys in my 30s as speak to you about my, my longstanding experience of being old, but I, I mean, I don't have children yet and I know that's another major shift that people undergo. I don't think that this is something that I probably feel like I needed to do in my 20s. However, I think the reason or the approach in your 20s probably would be different. I was thinking about J.L. collins and how he had been working for a couple years in his 20s and was like, I actually want to take time off to go travel. And he tried to quit his job because he was like, I'm just going to go travel and you spend my savings and then come back and get another job. And they were like, wa, no, we'll just like let you have the time off and like not pay you. And he was like, oh, dope. So I think that when you have fewer risks in life and you have fewer dependencies to be kind of concerned with, you might not have a mortgage and kids in your mid-20s yet that your circumstances are different. So the way that you would approach this would be different. But for me personally, it's only like in this decade so far that I've been like, yeah, I think this might make sense for me. We also heard from Sabrina S. Who shared a suggestion. Love this topic. Hot tip. If you're going for FMLA leave, don't ask a Kaiser doctor for a note. They don't really support it. They don't have good mental health support. I would use an urgent care doctor instead. I would also be interested in longer career breaks or about career changes that are over six months, like taking one to three years off. So. Okay, Katie, now, I am not sure if there is an ideal doctor that you should ask, but if anyone has ever navigated burnout and then gotten a doctor's note written for that and then kind of parlayed that into some FMLA situation, we would love to hear about that. So email us at Money with Katie Morning Brew dot com.
- [27:43]
B
I love that we're like, collectively trying to be like, how can we all get time off from burn?
- [27:46]
A
How can you scheme?
- [27:48]
B
How can we get. How we get this?
- [27:49]
A
I'm like, no, guys, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make this realistic for you. We're gonna find like a Money with Katie Rich Girl Nation doctor who's writing these notes on demand. $5, you can get your burnout FMLA note.
- [28:03]
B
I would pay a lot of money to that doctor.
- [28:05]
A
That's a charge, actually. Anyone feel free to run with that. It's like the telehealth doctors that'll, like, write you the emotional support animal therapy script so you don't have to pay a pet fee for your partner.
- [28:18]
B
To your point, I feel like there were times in my twenties that I needed a break, but it was because I was in toxic jobs. And I think that is.
- [28:25]
A
Ooh, good point.
- [28:27]
B
Like, yeah, that is something that if you need to get out, I mean, more power to you, and I hope that you're. You're able to separate yourself from that. But when I was in my 20s, I had a specific job that I really, really wanted out from, and I was like, saving and saving and saving. It turned out I ended up getting laid off from the job. I had, like, one major event at the end of the year that I planned, and then the next day they laid me off. So toxic. But it ended up being this, like, amazing summer because it was a summer that I got laid off. So I had severance and I was away from being in a toxic environment. And I was stressed about like, okay, what am I gonna figure out next? Really stressed. But I also traveled, I saw people I cared about. I. I like really took the entire summer to just chill and it was so rejuvenating.
- [29:12]
A
Hell yeah.
- [29:13]
B
So I think there is a case for it in your 20s or 30s. But yeah, your point about having fewer responsibilities and risks. Like, I wasn't living at home with my parents at that time. I was already living with my now husband. But rent was maybe a thousand dollars for me at the time. So it was like a lot easier to pull that off than now where I have a mortgage and like bigger responsibilities. But yeah, there was also a through line in the feedback we heard around parents specifically and around saving for kids generally being more burned out than most people who are not parents. So I wanted to share two separate perspectives that came in. The first came from Lauren B. She said, I was really interested in this episode. Having recently read Jillian's book. I was hoping the discussion might better address some of the reservations I still had after reading it. But unfortunately I didn't come out of this feeling any better about the prospect that I personally could pull this off. Off one, on the financial piece, the save an extra 6.5% guidance really only addresses the scenario where you're just taking off a month or two at a time and probably returning to your same employer. But it's very different from setting aside enough savings to cover a much longer period with an uncertain timeline to return to work. How do you save for those longer mini retirements without completely derailing other higher savings goals? A house down payment, a child's college fund, maybe even early retirement.
- [30:25]
A
Can I pop in here actually and answer that really quickly? Because I think that there was. Yeah, I, I sort of wanted to address that with Jillian a little bit like how the math was working out and kind of the prioritization of this versus these other bigger goals and retirement itself. And I think the answer is that the timeline is just going to change. She's offering up six and a half percent to save up one month of expenses every two years. I think I might say, hey, if you are in a little bit of a different situation where you are looking to take more time, say six months, you would make that a similarly long term goal as your other long term goals. Now, I can't tell you what to prioritize. I can't tell you if you'd rather have a house or rather have a mini retirement. I think this is like the sorts of trade offs. Or maybe you're buying a smaller house so that you can have many retirements versus the biggest house you can afford. Maybe you are looking at ways to get college scholarships or you are going to pursue the student loan thing again. I don't know what for you matters the most, but I think that this could just be something that you are planning for several years into the future. So for example, If I am 30 right now, I might decide to start putting the money away a little bit each month to have the option to take a full year off at some point between 35 and 40. Like I might think, okay, at some point in the next decade I would like to start a family. I'm going to start saving right now so that that entire first year I have no obligation to work if I don't want to. Just as an example. Okay, you can go ahead and keep reading, but I think that it's basically just extending that timeline.
- [32:05]
B
Yeah. And I would also say if you have universal basic income, this may not be a thing you have to worry about to the same extent as right now where we're on the hook for all of our goods and services. So okay, going back to their comment, they said second, I get that it's important to assuage anxiety by highlighting the ways this could go better than expected, but the full throated optimism is really just too pat for me. It doesn't acknowledge very real factors like ageism and sexism that affect one's job's prospects or the realities of some industries versus others. I'm in my early 40s, my spouse is in their early 50s and we have a middle schooler. If our salaries and stock market stay the course, we're on track to reach our fine number right around when the kiddo graduates from college, which would be an all time retirement for spouse. Early for me, but I've worked a sedentary desk job 40 plus hours a week non stop since shortly after my own graduation. In over 20 years now, the only meaningful break she puts break in quotations Scarecrow was a 12 week maternity leave. The toll is catching up to me, both physically and mentally. I'm severely burnt out. The avalanche is at my heels. But the spouse and I both work in the tech industry. In the past few years I've watched my company get sold to private equity, go through several rounds of layoffs and offshore positions to the extent they can get away with. And that was before the AI threat. I have already applied to dozens of jobs to try to find my way out with no Luck so far. To make matters worse, we live in the D.C. area where the market is flooded with desperate former federal. Sure, taking the time off I desperately need could work out fine, but at the ages and points in our careers we are now, the probability feels much higher that instead it could mean a significant and long lasting financial hit. And that reality felt glossed over in this discussion.
- [33:43]
A
Yeah, I get that. Honestly, this message pained me because there are so many familiar elements of this story. Like I know that this is one anecdote, but I was just going down the list being like, check. Private equity, Check. Federal layoffs, check, check. The job market being impacted by artificial intelligence, Check. Cost of healthcare, Check. Cost of children. Like, it, it felt like this was one person who was basically saying all of these broader systemic factors that we have been talking about all year coalesced into like this is the end result of that. And the, the line, the avalanche is at my heels was just like, oh my gosh. That like I can like feel the. Not desperation, but the kind of like.
- [34:27]
B
I feel the pressure.
- [34:28]
A
Yeah, the pressure of like, oh my God, this. It feels like we're hanging on by a thread here and so letting go with the expectation that we're going to be able to just jump right back in and be fine feels like a freaking huge gamble that was like sort of minimized in the way that we were discussing it. I totally understand that those circumstances might make this feel and or be actually riskier than it would be worth. But it is that burnout piece that feels most poignant because once you are at that point, that point, sometimes desperate measures become required. You kind of like stop having a choice in the matter because you start shutting down. And that is, I mean that's why we talk about everything that we talk about on this show. Because it's pretty unfortunate that even think about this person too, right? Like this is someone who works in the tech sector and is on track for an early retirement themselves and they are not exempted from any of these pressures. Right. So this is somebody that's like theoretically sort of like won the game in the American economy and like still is really up against it. Okay, we have one more Hannah that I think is worth sharing. So this one came from Emily G. Your recent episode about many retirement really resonated with me and I wanted to share a similar experience I've had with what I'm calling my extended semi retirement. About a year ago, I found myself incredibly burnt out and unsure of where to go in my career. Nearly a decade in healthcare, a global pandemic and fighting against the for profit corporate hospital mach had me feeling exhausted and disenchanted. When my husband and I learned we were expecting our first child, we agreed that full time infant childcare was not the right fit for our family and were fortunate that we could afford for me to be a full time caregiver instead. Of course, this left me grappling with the logistical and existential struggle that so many women face when considering leaving their careers to focus on child raising. Enter my semi retirement solution after baby arrived, I left my full time position for a per diem hospital position with a minimum shift requirement of only two days per month.
- [36:32]
B
Month.
- [36:32]
A
This allows me to functionally be a stay at home mom during the week and pick up two weekend days a month where my husband can stay with our child and we don't have to worry about the hassle and expense of childcare. This feels like the best of both worlds. I get to spend as much time as I want with my baby without having to commit to leaving the workforce completely or having the dreaded experience gap on my resume. I've been most surprised by how refreshed I feel when I do pick up shift. Things that used to feel so stressful are now transparently unimportant and I've started to find the joy in my work again while being able to clock out and not worry about the corporate bullshit until I'm back a few weeks later. I know many women struggle with balancing work and family during their childbearing years, a topic I'm so grateful your show covers and I hope more moms can see this as an option rather than having to commit to an all or nothing setup up. I recognize my situation is industry specific, but it has truly been the best decision I've made for both my family and my career. Huge fan of your work. Thanks for always presenting new perspectives and ideas.
- [37:36]
B
Yeah, I love that she seemed to find the balance that made the most sense for her without making a full concession on either side. And I think this is key without trying to optimize for the most money but optimizing for the most happiness and long term sustainability.
- [37:49]
A
So yep, love it.
- [37:50]
B
I know you actually have. You have like a really old post on that I think from like 2020.
- [37:55]
A
Yeah, I it's something that I've can you all tell that this comes up in my work a lot because it's something I personally struggle with. My like instinctual position is like whatever is going to be best for like making the business bigger is obviously going to Be the best thing. So I really have to work against my instinctual drive to like want to do more, bigger, better all the time. And the hustle. Yeah, the my girl bositis My my my chronic girl bositis.
- [38:22]
B
The grind never stops. Before shifting gears, we did hear from Ki who wanted to talk about kids specifically. And in some ways I think the overwhelm that they're referring to is a big reason why a lot of people my age are choosing not to have children in general. But that is, that's a can of worms for another time. But she wrote, I love the episode about mini retirements, but wish you had discussed how to manage it with kids a bit more. Especially since your guest has five kids. I was wondering about how to manage kids logistics, mistakes, timing, and how to plan with the whole family when only one parent could take him a new retirement. Also, what if your kids are a major contributor to Burnout? I have three kids, baby to first grade and a full time job. And it is a lot.
- [39:00]
A
Yeah, I bet it's a lot. Jesus.
- [39:04]
B
Katie, did Jillian talk about this in the book at all?
- [39:07]
A
You know, not really from what I can recall from like a details or like specific standpoint. But she definitely addresses the way that the semi retirement functions. Like a chance to spend more time with your kids. But I like, if they're the reason you feel burnt out, maybe that's not.
- [39:22]
B
What you want if you're like, get me away from these kids. It was funny when I was growing up and we had like some family things going on. My mom would always be like, oh yeah, work is my safe haven. Work is like my refuge to step away from stuff.
- [39:36]
A
Yeah, I have, Yes, I have some friends that say that too. People who have children that are like, I love like, like having kids was made me so happy. It also made me like my work because it was like a chance to do something else. I value these pieces of feedback back to back because I think you have like one side of the coin represented in the individual who was like, I wanted to embrace much more part time work because I wanted to be more of a full time caregiver. And then there are obviously people who like view work as a bit of a respite. So I think that that will also impact how you think about these sorts of things like mini retirements or breaks and like what you actually want out of them.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah, if you're trying to yeet away your kids, then this might not be the. Or I don't know, maybe it's during the school Year so you get a break while they're at school.
- [40:26]
A
Who knows, fellas.
- [40:29]
B
Is it gay take a break during the work?
- [40:34]
A
Is it gay to love your children? Okay, this week on the Money with Katie show, we're talking about, about sleep away boarding school.
- [40:45]
B
Listen, no shame to parents doing what they have to do. I'll, I'll put that out there. On that note, for those who feel a little stuck and like they can't fully walk away, we had a few comments that I wanted to bring up. So Juju with a bunch of use said, okay, so as awesome as a mini retirement sounds, there are some of us who really can't. Our bosses are not willing to negotiate with us and would rather lose us than do so despite any, any expense. Our savings goals contradict long trips without constant cash flow either from salary or pto. Some of us really are stuck here until true end of life retirement. So how can people like me still combat burnout?
- [41:21]
A
Yeah, it's a million dollar question, isn't it? Okay, so despite the fact that we're on this like sinking ship, how can we swim a little more comfortably? So, yeah, a couple things and Hannah, you've already touched on this. It might be worth reconsidering if the job that you have right now is the one that you would like to keep long term and what might serve your life goals and your finances better. Because what I'm hearing is that this may not be an ideal situation if it's like, well, my boss doesn't give a about me and would rather cut me loose than like ever give a little. So again, this is not something that might be able to be changed immediately, but just planting that seed of like, okay, we're going to start paving our path out of here. That could be something that you want to consider Also. What sorts of short term breaks are available to you? So if we're thinking about strategically mixing holidays with pto, how can you piece together intentional pockets of reprieve? Hannah, I think you're really good at doing this. The other thing that I will say.
- [42:24]
B
Is, is it shame? Are you dragging?
- [42:26]
A
No, no, no, no, no. I, I think you are really good at being strategic about how you use your PTO to like maximize enjoyment and like getting something out of it. So that is not shade. I also have one tip that's probably going to feel really, really annoying. But fuck it, we ball. So this year, as Henna alluded to, I think the weight of the last couple of years of my work life really started to catch up with me. Physically. And I kept pushing through it for a while before realizing that I actually needed to make some lifestyle changes. And I am planning on getting a little bit more into all of that in the final episode this year. But one thing that has had an outsized impact for my mental health and sense of just like chronically feeling overwhelmed is turning off my phone when I'm not working and leaving it in another room. Now, I know that the advice to cut back on screen time is just so trite at this point, and it may feel overly romanticized, but sometimes I feel like we don't romanticize being off the grid enough. Because what I've noticed was that even in my so called downtime, or like the time that could theoretically be restorative to me, I was just pumping my body full of cortisol and adrenaline by scrolling for hours. And it's just so obvious to me that this is a contributing factor to our collective sense of burnout. Especially, especially in a year that has seen a news cycle like this one where every time you wake up, the push notification is like the Civil Rights act is being dismantled and you're like, great, cool. Love that. Time to go make a deck about customer acquisition. So I think if you feel like you have too many mental browser tabs open at all time and you just can never close them and you're just constantly running on empty, I think that is an experiment you can run on yourself that costs nothing to be like, all right, I'm doing a week of like no phone. As much as you can manage to do that.
- [44:23]
B
Can I add something here?
- [44:24]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [44:25]
B
I know that this is gonna sound also trite coming from someone who literally writes about travel, but I have found that even three or four days away can make all of the difference. And I think that sometimes when you're in your routine and you're just in survival mode, you don't really get the chance to get out of your own head. And yes, when you go somewhere else and you're forced to put all of that to the side and just be really present and like try to figure out the situation you're in in a new place, I find that that actually does so much for my brain. And that's kind of why I've written about it like three or four times now is like even three to four days can make a huge difference. If it's a staycation in your own city, if it's staying at a friend's place, if it's couch surfing or couch swapping with someone else. Like, I think it can. It puts you in a new place where you don't really have the choice to think about, like, oh, my medical bills are due. Oh, I have to make this appointment. Oh, I have to do this thing. Because they're just so focused on being a different place, so. So would also throw that out there.
- [45:23]
A
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're onto something with the getting out of routine. Cause I. For me. And again, all of this is so personal. So some of this may resonate with you and some of it may not. But when I feel the most spread thin, exhausted, just that, like, chronic state of, like, being feeling kind of beaten down, it does feel like I'm looping the same thought patterns over and over again. And that, to your point, kind of getting out of that or. Or physically moving your body or your energy into a different state is sometimes, like, the most realistic thing. And to your point, it doesn't have to be big. The theme of this episode was like, this is a big shift that can be completely transformative. And also, I think there are many small shifts that can have outsized impacts on your mental health and outlook. And for me, kind of opting out of the phone more often has been really big. I've had to get better at discerning my own capacity for these sorts of things and, like, recognizing when I'm slipping into that state. And for me, it's irritability. It's like I have very little patience. When I can feel my patience wearing really thin, that's like the signal to me of, like, oh, you're agitated by everything. Time to, like, take a step back. Like, you need to actually go do something to restore yourself right now.
- [46:44]
B
No, I'm the exact same way. And not to be again, like, the most basic be on earth. But I will say that I do think understanding your things, like enneagram, your personality type, your life path number, if you're sparkle, Megan, whatever that is for you, I. I don't know. You don't have to believe me, but I really think that, like, my big three, like, understanding my big three in my horoscope and also, like, my own enneagram has really, really helpful. And being like, these are the things that are actually going to feel restorative to you, and because of your personality type, these other things that other people might do is not to work for you at all. And I. I don't want to put anybody in a bucket, but I do find for me personally that, like, it does tend to be spot On.
- [47:27]
A
So yeah, to me that is also discernment. That's knowing yourself and being in touch with your ups and downs and being able to be like, okay, this is what I need in this moment. But it has been something that has been kind of a critical lifeline for me this year in those moments where I'm like, oh God, I don't. I actually feel like incapable of continuing on.
- [47:49]
B
I do think it's also worth mentioning like if you're a woman and you have a cycle that is also really going to affect how your day to day goes. And I don't think we talk about that enough.
- [48:00]
A
Yeah, I have, I have somehow managed this year to map my anxiety spikes pretty routinely with that cycle. It's like clockwork. And it does help honestly to know, oh, okay, I'm having actually like my brain is producing hormones that are making me feel this way. Way. And so what can I do today to shift my state or like work with that versus fighting against it.
- [48:26]
B
Yeah. And I think if you're someone who has enough time off and you can do this, like maybe it means taking every Friday off of that week of your life so that you just have extra time to yourself or you just don't make any plans that week after work because you know that that's the week you're going to be most agitated. Like, I do think that that's something that can be. Not to go like Maha wellness, but I do think that's something that can be really instrumental.
- [48:50]
A
So I've heard that described as energy management as opposed to time management. So rather than thinking about that 24 cycle in a day being the same for you every single day, if you are somebody that has a cycle, a hormonal cycle that is, give or take, 28 days, that like you are going to feel different at different times in the month and that like you might need to try to accommodate that in the way that you're planning your workload and things of that nature. Some of that obviously is harder to manage depending on the type of job that you have. But I think that adjusting your expectations according to the energy levels you anticipate having is a way to at least not double down on the disappointment or the frustration that you might feel if you're in kind of like a can't even mood. And then surprise, surprise, you can't even. And it's like, oh, now I'm beating myself up for, for feeling this way.
- [49:46]
B
Yeah.
- [49:46]
A
So it's kind of that meta commentary, I guess, the meta emotions about the emotions so to get back to the the more logistical, tactical side of things, to answer Luke A's question, who asked, does she recommend using your paid time off for these many retirements? I don't think it has to be your paid time off, but theoretically I think it could be. I think Jillian's advice focused more on using medical leave or unpaid leave if it'll be longer than a few weeks. But I also think that the spirit of a lot of this advice was like, you are probably going to have to wheel and deal with whatever you have available to you. And if you are someone that does have a lot of PTO like that could theoretically be an option.
- [50:28]
B
Agreed. And I think there's also the realization that things can change. I noted in a few people's comments that they said this felt out of touch for them them or out of reach for them a few years ago when I think it's worth noting, like, things are fluid, things are dynamic, they can change at any time. And so Isabelle L. Wrote in I agree with others that there are many people who aren't in a situation where this is feasible. I was not in a space five years ago where I could remotely fathom anything like this. But this is still a valuable conversation to help show that it can be possible for many people. With some hard work and planning, it's important to normalize this concept. And I hope everyone is able to experience at least a month off at some point, whether it's travel, visiting family or self reflection and hobbies at home.
- [51:06]
A
Yeah, I think even if you don't think that this is something that you would be able to do, I would still recommend as a thought exercise, sitting down and being like, if I had six weeks off, how would I spend them and like map it out as though it were happening? I don't know. I think that when we start to make these things concrete, you kind of open the door to the serendipity or spontaneity or like the, you know what, actually, maybe this is worth trying to work around these things that seem immovable. I would love for someone to try that and let us know how it makes them feel again, even if you don't think that it's something that's going to be realistic right now.
- [51:45]
B
Yeah, I think the way that our lives are mapped out for us of like, you go to school, you graduate, you marry someone, you buy a house, you settle down and you have a kid. Those things are all mapped out for us in some way and you don't have to follow that track obviously. But I think these other things that you can do for yourself that are very like amorphous and a blob and don't feel like they can ever be addressed, I think it's important to be intentional about like, well, do you really want to just spend 40 years working or are there meaningful breaks you can take that even if you're just thought exercising them can be worthwhile?
- [52:16]
A
I think a lot of the feedback that we heard was like, well yeah, I would love to take time off, but I don't feel like I can. Like I feel like I'm trapped working for 40 years straight. And I understand that. So I definitely don't want to minimize that. Amvu 1234 echoed the sentiment that even if you can't take chunks of time off off, they said, as some of these ideas may seem too hard to follow in some contexts, for example informal economies I like the premise of exercising and practicing for retirement. Personally, I think a good starting point is to plan rest on the weekends and put in a hard no to work activities and taking all of your vacation days every year. It does not have to be all of the days together.
- [52:58]
B
I love the idea of exercising and practicing for retirement and normalizing the idea of breaks.
- [53:03]
A
Me too.
- [53:04]
B
Because like you said, we want to shift from that American and work ethic to maybe a more European approach to work. Just a thought and then B felt the same saying as someone who finds a standard three weeks of annual vacation personally offensive and Sidebar same they said. I really appreciate this episode for holding a mirror to our work centered culture and shining a light on prioritizing the experience capital over corporate capital with the yeah, the like disco emoji.
- [53:31]
A
Love that. I love that. Okay, finally Jasmine said, this is the nicest version of the die with zero philosophy I have ever heard. And practical too. Which I was like, you know what? Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I love when two big philosophies collide. We will get right back to your thoughts and then listener questions right after a quick break. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Does this sound familiar? You're in line at checkout, cart full of items, you're talking toddler is screaming for a treat and you left your wallet in the car. Or was it at home? No need to panic. With your iPhone in hand, you can tap to pay using Apple Card with Apple Pay and you'll earn unlimited daily cash back when you do so. If your credit card isn't Apple Card, maybe it should be subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.comcom taking care of yourself starts with a good night's sleep and that's where Eight Sleep comes in. Eight Sleep just launched Pod 5, the newest generation of its signature smart mattress cover. Its Smart Mattress cover and blanket enhance your existing mattress with personalized temperature regulation on both sides of the bed, plus elevation, sound control and sleep tracking. No wearables required. As a result, eight Sleep reports that users can get up to one full hour of additional quality sleep per night. And as you may know, if you are a longtime listener, I proudly consider myself a 1% sleep spender and I have had an eight sleep for years. It is a game changer. I will never go back. Head over to 8sleep.com Katie and use the code Katie to get 350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. Try it at home for 30 days and if it's not for you, you can return it. That's eightsleep.com Katie welcome back to our final episode of this batch. Before we get into any miscellaneous questions that you sent in, this episode was a conversation first aired on Kate Kennedy's podcast Be There in Five, and I reshared it last in honor of Rich Girl Nation being named a Top business book of 2025. So a few high level points to hit for this one, including a movie recommendation.
- [56:02]
B
I think we need to pause because you were listed alongside Ray Dalio, Bill Gates, Morgan Housel. So pretty impressive company to be surrounded by. Katie, I'm gonna. I'm gonna Gen Z clap for you.
- [56:13]
A
Thank you. I didn't know that that was a Gen Z clap, but I love it.
- [56:16]
B
It was a Gen Z clap.
- [56:17]
A
The forefinger and thumb.
- [56:20]
B
Yes. The episode was titled On Influencers Beauty Culture and Corporate Confidence with Kate Kennedy. And you at one point mentioned Jessica Defino, who we've had on the show before. We love her. To which Amy said, I agree that Jessica Defino's investigations into beauty are eye opening.
- [56:35]
A
Yes. And then Kelly G. Recommended a movie saying you need to look up the Gen X classic film she's out of Control, which is a 1989 movie about a man's daughter getting a makeover and how he gets overprotective of her after her glow up. Which okay, I that premise makes me a little nervous, but I will add it to the list. If anyone has seen it, comment and tell us what you think.
- [56:58]
B
I can't tell if it was like you were going to be in like a rage when you watch this movie or if you're going to find it funny. So I laughed also at this comment that Elena wrote in that said I have never been called out so quickly in a podcast in the American Cheerleader magazine arc literally.
- [57:14]
A
I remember, dude, the diet advice in those magazines for 12 year olds. Crazy. It would be like, here's how to make sure you don't snack. Like brush your teeth immediately after you eat dinner so you don't eat anything after, you know, 7pm or whatever. And I'm, you know, taking notes in my little pink glitter notebook like, okay, got it. I'm gonna be a flyer.
- [57:36]
B
I have been so sad about the return to skinny talk and like the return to thinness. I've been so sad about it.
- [57:43]
A
You know, my hot take is that it never left.
- [57:46]
B
I I well, okay. We had this like mirage though. That it did. And I was really thrilled about it for a couple years.
- [57:53]
A
Yeah.
- [57:53]
B
But here we are.
- [57:54]
A
Okay. Speaking of, you guys made your opinions known to me about the inclusion of an ad from a certain brand in this episode, particularly in the context of this episode. Pringle yum said my jaw hit the floor. A fantastic discussion regarding the hot girl hamster wheel followed by a skims ad. I am struggling to reconcile you lamenting modern day beauty standards while also encouraging us to put money in the pockets of the woman most responsible for creating those unrealistic standards. And then Abracadabra absolutely roasted me. They said it is very lightly giving Gia Airbnb vibes, which is a very niche reference that I guess you'll understand if you read the newsletter or you care about what sort of spawn content people who write for the New Yorker are doing. But you know what? Fair enough, fair enough. I get it. It's a bad look for sure. Listen, one problematic thing you need to know about me is that I have been a Kardashian apologist since I was 10 years old. So I contain multitudes and I think we're all allowed at least one, maybe two problematic emotional support billionaires. No. But on a serious note, I think the Kardashians, they are certainly emblematic of the unattainability of the female beauty standard, but they certainly did not invent that standard and they could go away tomorrow and I don't think much would change. Though I will say this feedback is interestingly timed because this Sunday's episode of Diabolical Lies is an exploration of sort of this subject. I'd say like it's like in the ballpark, just this double sided coin of the no ethical consumption under capitalism thing thing and the idea of selling out. It's just a topic that I think about a lot, particularly following the, the GIA Airbnb fiasco. The Riyadh Comedy Festival, if y' all are up on that.
- [59:50]
B
Yeah.
- [59:51]
A
Taylor Swift's 12th studio album with 36 variants.
- [59:56]
B
Is that a real number?
- [59:57]
A
Yeah, 36, that's correct.
- [59:58]
B
That's the real number.
- [60:00]
A
That is real. Yeah.
- [60:01]
B
You're not exact. Oh, okay.
- [60:02]
A
No, no, that's the. That is how many variants there are of that album. Okay, so like fourth wall breaking here. Being a person for whom the viability of her creative work depends to a large degree on corporate patronage. This is something that I think about a lot. And so we, we talked about it for two hours on Diabolical Lies this Sunday.
- [60:24]
B
I'm excited to hear that episode.
- [60:25]
A
Yeah, it was fun. It was one where, like, there weren't really any sweeping conclusions at the end. And actually one of the listener questions kind of in a roundabout way gets at this same complexity. And so I'm excited to read that. But kick us off.
- [60:39]
B
Okay, our first question comes from Andrea B. They said, Katie, something I've never gotten clarity on. When it comes to the 4%, or dare I say 5% safe withdrawal rate, does it take into account reallocation over the years or does it assume you're 100% in the total US stock market the rest of your life? Bah, I don't know.
- [60:57]
A
Okay, so the original portfolios that he tested had a range of holdings. It was between 50 and 75% US equities and 25 and 50% US bonds. So bear in mind, though, he did that in the 90s and has since recreated this portfolio using more diversified holdings. So I will take this opportunity to note that for as well as the US Stock market has performed this year, international stocks are outperforming US stocks by the widest margin since 2009. So the short answer is that yes, you absolutely can and should rebalance without disrupting your 4% rule eligibility as long as you are staying roughly in the bounds of the types of holdings that Bangan tested. So think US Large cap, mid cap, small cap, global stocks that exclude the U.S. those types of index funds, government bonds, things of that nature. I think the only thing to really be aware of when we're Talking about the 4% rule is that that the types of holdings that are pretty confidently going to be excluded is anything where you're holding large concentrations of individual stocks or like alternative currencies. Like, because we just, we don't know there's not enough data to like make an educated guess about what's going to happen. And so all of this is really based on you holding broad based index funds. But the most conservative portfolio that he tested that worked was 50% bonds. I don't think that that's necessary. Personally. I know that there are charts out that will show you like what your bond versus equity allocation should be as you age. This is again, me personally, I probably will never get much past 35, 40% bonds like even in my most conservative, at least based on how the last like 30 or 40 years of data have shaped up.
- [62:49]
B
So another question from Jill. I've been a fan for years, but this is my first time emailing. I read in Morning Brew, screenshot attached that your boy Ray Dalio said we should all have 15% of our portfolios in gold. This came as a big shock because I don't feel like I've ever heard any advice from investment professionals around gold. I thought buying gold was for governments and preppers. So I'm curious, are you invested in gold, Katie, and how do you feel about that 15% ratio?
- [63:13]
A
Yes, my close personal friend Ray Dalio, my my third emotional support billionaire. Just kidding. I I actually do disagree with this and like take that for what it is because he's a billionaire and I'm not. But gold is hot right now. It is true, it is hot right now, but I think it's functioning as a bit of a speculative asset in a weird way because people are nervous about the US dollar given gestures at everything. I personally do not own any gold and I do not have any plans to buy any. I am perfectly content buying my domestic and global equities and calling it a day.
- [63:48]
B
I do think it's funny how Indian families specifically buy a lot of gold as their ways that they celebrate different holidays, ways that they hold on to their value. I didn't know about the gold as like an alternative asset when I was growing up. When I was five years old, I didn't think about gold as an alternative asset. It is nice that my family and like most South Asian families invest in gold and that way is just like some sort of diversification if you want it. And then we got a recommendation from Nicole B. Who said in response to rich girl Molly's question about encouraging more people in the FI community to donate their wealth. In the September 23 episode, I wanted to bring to your attention the work that Rebecca Herbst is doing. In recent years she has focused her financial independence, early retirement content towards what she calls the Philanthropy Pledge in partnership with the organization Giving what We About Care can an effective altruism organization dedicated to the goal of encouraging a percentage of income to the most effective charities work can be found at the website Yield and Spread. So we'll put the link that she shares in the show Notes, which also has a free philanthropy calculator worksheet that explores how taking a 10% pledge or donating at any amount impacts someone's buy timeline. Cool. Big fan of the podcast and really enjoyed hearing in the same episode about some of the ways Hannah and Katie are donating or participating Mutual in Aid. It's made me think about ways I can do more in my own community and love that talking about it normalizes this kind of mindset, which was really the intent of us talking about it so openly. That's something that you and I talked about offline, Katie and I do think right now, with the government shutdown still happening as of this recording, and the fact that SNAP benefits do not go out for November for I think the majority of states, it is a really good time to practice some of that mutual aid if you are able. So I'll just throw that out there.
- [65:27]
A
Yeah, well my intention in talking about it publicly was that so everyone knows how good of a person I am. So yeah, I know. But really, that is amazing and I'm actually really happy that someone is already doing this. I figured something like this already existed. So thank you so much for that recommendation. I will also add that this is like if you already have a wealth planner and you use it for budgeting and like you're using that financial independence calculator. If you just go into the budget area in the donations and giving section, you can enter kind of example donation amounts and it too will factor that into your FI timeline to be like, okay, okay, how will that impact how long it takes me to reach fi? But it'll also, and this is the important part, show you basically what you could afford to kind of give in perpetuity as well as like factoring it into your overall spending plan. Okay, now for a heartwarming note from Rich Girl Nation Book Club founder Jose C. My female friends and I finished our Rich Girl Nation Book Club recently. All of them are now making improvements to the way they handle their finances. Many have shared how they sent the book to other friends who are now negotiating a prenup or getting involved in their family finances like never before. As the weeks passed and we read chapter after chapter, I listened to many interesting transformation testimonies One friend who was a teacher started having conversations with her students about salary negotiation, improving their grant applications, and how to do networking the right way. Two friends started the book club by letting their partners handle the finances and finished it by asking the partners to read the book with them and vowing to leave their family finances. From then on, their partners were not doing a bad job, but I'm so happy to see they got the confidence to get involved. From reading Rich Girl Nation. One of the book club attendees asked for a coaching session to review her retirement accounts and investments. She was doing okay with the default investment options, but with better tax planning, she'll probably save an extra $5,000 a year at least. One friend already led the finances in her household and was a fire nerd. I was curious to see what she would get from the book. She gave wonderful explanations every time someone asked a question. She also asked rich questions regarding gender dynamics. Her questions sparked wonderful debates which allowed all my other friends to chime in with stories and advice. Rich Girl Nation truly allowed us to talk about so many interesting topics, share new stories and bond like no other book club has. I feel like they all finished the book club feeling sisterhood at all time highs and they are all empowered to pursue their own financial goals like never before. For me, the experience was so much fun. It was like listening to women talk money. But from my closest friends. My heart is full and I just wanted to share that with with you. Okay. Bar none. Yeah, like the most beautiful thing I've read since the book came out. So thank you so much for that extremely generous note. Can you imagine if I just like wrote that myself?
- [68:14]
B
It's a real email me and chatgpt.
- [68:16]
A
Collaborating on like a. How can I make my book sound so singular and important?
- [68:22]
B
Well, it would be a choice to have you say book club founder, which we don't have an actual book club. I should be very clear. It's a man for Rich Girl Nation.
- [68:31]
A
I mean he founded his own little Rich Girl Nation book with his friends.
- [68:35]
B
Jose is great. Thank you so much. I think that's really sweet and like really a testament, I think, Katie, to the the way that the book did not just approach the practical and tactical, but also larger implications in society.
- [68:45]
A
So yeah, thank you.
- [68:47]
B
You said yeah, yeah, I did that shit. Yeah.
- [68:50]
A
Pretty good person over here with a pretty good book.
- [68:54]
B
Why obsessed with being a good person? That's the real question.
- [69:00]
A
Catholic guilt, remember? We've been over this.
- [69:03]
B
We had some questions about the advice in the book from Ali K. Who said. I'm a huge fan of your work. I discovered your blog sometime near its start, when I was just beginning my own career post grad school. I was barely 30 at the time, excited to figure out what to do with my first real income, $60,000. What? And thrilled to find a resource that was smart but not bro. Yeah, classic Katie. But not bro Y. Not long after that, I married a very high earner and my financial life changed dramatically. He makes more than me by more than an order of magnitude, and I've kind of struggled since we got married, both existentially and strategically, to wrap my head around my new financial situation. Throughout all of this change, I've truly valued her work and insights. I finished Rich Girl Nation yesterday and it raised many questions for me. There's one cluster of questions in particular that I especially want to ask you about. I'm writing to you in part because I thought you might be able to direct me to helpful resources, but also I think addressing them make might make for a very nice follow up book. And I hope you keep writing. The theme is basically so you're rich now what? And then most of your questions specifically got into donor advised funds, charitable giving, and how it should change during your income earning years versus your retirement years and how much money you need to start a foundation.
- [70:16]
A
So okay, first of all, I'm so happy that we had that recommendation to share from Nicole for the philanthropy calculator. I would also add that something I've been thinking about a lot and don't yet have answers for for is how to think about this in a way that builds a world where charity is ultimately rendered obsolete because people will always need a helping hand. Right? Things are always going to happen. You're always going to need charity to function in some capacity. But I'm really interested in how you can use money to build movements that lessen the need for charity. So, for example, I'm just spitballing here. What would it look like, like for money to fund candidates for office who are then going to be beholden to fighting for universal basic services? What would it look like to put money to use in politics but for positive change and not corporate kickbacks? What would it look like for philanthropy to support union drives and labor organizers? Because that is expensive. It is expensive to fund staff organizers for union drives who can then fight for fair treatment and fair wages wages and stronger labor law. And kind of basically how do we use money to actually plug those holes in the social safety net once and for all versus catching people once they've already fallen through them. So I don't know if that makes sense, but I don't know what the answers to those questions are. But it occurs to me that it would be interesting to explore methods of giving that address some of the root causes for why people end up needing that type of charity in the first place.
- [71:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think as someone who worked at a 501c3 like charity organization for many years, I think there's this like, yeah, my utopia is that I don't actually need to do this work anymore. And so I think that is something worth worth asking. It is interesting. Kerala, the region where my mom was born and is actually a socialist community, just announced that they fully eradicated extreme poverty.
- [72:17]
A
Damn.
- [72:18]
B
Which is really impressive. And I think think something where I'm like, okay, well now there's going to be organizations that do not need to do work for extreme poverty. Obviously it's getting up to a livable wage, fair wages, et cetera. But I think that is the dream and the goal for a lot of the people who are in this space. So she also had some more existential questions and thoughts that I wanted to read. So it's a little long, but she said finally there are ethical and existential questions, not about the acquisition of wealth per se, but about the use of it. I'm often bothered by our household income and how accessible good things are to us when they're out of reach for so many. And if I'm being honest, I really don't want anyone to eat me. But I struggle to determine exactly what to sacrifice in an effort to even things out. My husband and I have whole conversations about whether he should quit. Let's downsize, pull the kids out of their pricey early childhood education situation and scrap together living like everyone else. But time and time again we wonder who exactly would benefit from that. My husband is a surgeon and he is excellent at what he does. None of his patients or future patients would benefit if he quit. For the first three years of parenting, we employed a nanny. We paid her significantly more money than I made, and when she had a baby, we covered a maternity leave longer than mine and my husband's unpaid parental leaves combined. She buoyed us during some of the hardest years of our lives, but the extravagance rattle riddled me with guilt. I sometimes wondered whether I should fire her and go back to wanting to kill myself like most other postpartum women, but again, I can't identify a compelling net benefit. Sure, I could have given away her salary to a charitable organization. But then our nanny would have been out of a really good job. I could have sent the kids to daycare for less and given away the remainder, but it also didn't seem great to utilize the coveted infant spots of dayc when I could afford to leave them open for people who can't afford a nanny. Or was I supposed to send my kids to daycare and help someone else pay for a nanny? I could do this sort of thing all day, and sometimes I do. Who benefits from rich people buying the cheap homes and putting expensive homes on the market, especially in a housing crisis? I worry both that I'm being ridiculous and fretting about this and that. But then our nanny would be out of a really good job is the 2025 version of what a slave owner would say. Obviously I'm in therapy, but even so, I'm the richest person I trust and I have nobody else to work out these things with. Mm, times are tough for so many, but I cannot be the only person wondering what to do with excess. Are there resources you recommend for these sorts of questions and issues? I want to wrestle with the ethical existential issues productively, intelligently and sensitively, but I don't think I'm doing a great job alone. Again, I really love the work you do. Thank you for relentlessly balancing a robust critique of our economic reality with concrete advice for operating within it, and congratulations on a job well done with your new book.
- [74:54]
A
So what this highlights for me, I think first and foremost is that our present situation makes it very difficult for anyone to feel as though they are existing ethically. Now obviously you would rather exist unethically in a multimillion dollar house, so I'm not going to minimize that. Like the existential dilemmas of wealth are certainly preferable to the material dilemmas of not being wealthy wealthy. But I still think this just highlights the shortcomings of trying to individually navigate this stuff because knowing that other people are struggling while you are not is a life diminishing experience. And I think a lot of wealthy people end up just deadening themselves to that reality because the guilt feels very ugly and personal. But ultimately I think for many like that guilt is misplaced. So in this example in particular, particular your husband is highly paid because he is a medical professional with a skill that is in high demand. So sure we could could talk about how oh well, medical debt is crippling America and that he is profiting from an unjust healthcare system and etc. Like we we definitely could do that but as far as ways to earn a lot of money go, he's not like employing an army of low wage serfs and then collecting their surplus value. He has a skill that someone's willing to pay him a lot more money for. There really aren't jobs that are completely exempted from that type of criticism. Like if you work for a corporation that is donating money to politicians who are stripping people of healthcare and nutrition support in exchange for keeping their corporate tax rate low, you too are benefiting from the blood money endemic to our society. So I guess the point is like, there are bad choices and there are better choices, but ultimately all of those choices are still constricted by forces that are usually outside of your individual control. Control. And so I'm not sure at the individual operating level what the correct first principles here are of, like, maximize the best situation that you can get for yourself. I don't know, I can't answer that question. But that to me does not mean that we should like throw up our hands and say fuck it. I think what it does mean is that attempting to individually optimize every consumer choice we make and then feel guilty if we have managed to eke out a good living in this economy is actually a far less productive use of our time long term than focusing on plugging into efforts that will make us more of a we, that will make us part of that we, that is trying to expand the choices that are available to people.
- [77:31]
B
This is something my best friend and I talk about a lot is like, I am very openly anti Amazon, but if the only ebook reader available to me is the Kindle on my phone, then I have no choice but to. You know what I mean? It's very hard to opt out. And so I do think when I'm saying is within the decisions that you can make for yourself rather than sitting here fighting against which one is better. I think sometimes, at least for giving specifically, like giving something is better than sitting here and wrestling about which one you should give to.
- [77:59]
A
Yeah. This question very much struck me as like, this is a philosophy major. This is someone who has read a lot of philosophy and is like, actually, I mean, but I, I appreciated it because I think it does complement some of the supposedly black and white moralizing that you'll often hear about. These types of decisions where she's like, well, I can afford a nanny and I'm paying her really well, but would it be better if I fired her and gave that. It's like you, if you, you can kind of get in your head about these sorts of things. I think that's very real. Yeah, that sort of question or that experience is probably pretty aspirational. I don't think many people can probably relate to those, those types of problems, but that doesn't make them less real. And I think it, it does challenge us to think about like, okay, and if we were to design a system that worked better, that didn't put you in this weird dilemma of like, should I pay for the best thing I can afford or not? I think that would be preferable because it doesn't, it does not appear to me here in reading this question there are like easy, clear cut answers though of course. Tell me in the comments if you disagree. I'm, I'm really curious about this subject. It's something I think about a lot. Okay, that is all for this edition of Rich Girl Roundup. Thank you as always for listening, sharing your thoughts, sending in great thoughtful questions. Appreciate you holding my feet to the fire when necessary and we will see you next week. Our show is a production of Morning Brew and is produced by Hannah Velez and me, Katie Gatty Tassan with our audio engineering and sound design from Nick Torres. Devin Emery is President of Morning Brew Corporation. Content and additional fact checking comes from Scott Wilson.