The Money with Katie Show

Episode: Freedom, Capitalism, and America's Missing Revolution
Host: Katie Gatti Tassin
Guest: Andrew Hartman (Professor of History, Illinois State University)
Date: November 26, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the influence of Karl Marx on American economic, political, and cultural life—both historically and in contemporary discourse. Host Katie Gatti Tassin speaks with historian Andrew Hartman, whose recent book "Karl Marx in America" challenges listeners to reconsider the role of Marx’s ideas in shaping both the nation's self-concept and the persistent tension between freedom, labor, and capitalism. Together, they delve into Marx’s biography, his observations on America, class consciousness, the impact of industrialization, racism, and gender, and how these factors continue to influence modern American society and personal finance attitudes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Karl Marx and Why Does He Still Matter?

[05:10 – 13:40]

• Hartman positions Marx as a philosopher of freedom, underlining why his ideas resonate in America, a country obsessed with freedom.
• Marx’s Biography:
  • Born in Prussia (1818), early radical journalist, exiled across Europe.
  • Eventually settles in London, lives in poverty, supported by Friedrich Engels (who managed his father’s Manchester factory).
  • Marx’s work for the New York Tribune as a European correspondent, provided in-depth commentary on US events.
• Quote:

  “Marx offered a philosophy of freedom that was largely missing from American political discourse... in a capitalist society... most people have to sell their labor in order to survive.” — Andrew Hartman [05:10]

• Marx viewed American freedom as incomplete, particularly for those lacking autonomy over their work and bodies.

2. The Unrecognized American Relevance of Marx

[13:40 – 22:01]

• Americans often elevate thinkers like Jefferson, Madison, and Adam Smith, yet rarely include Marx.
  • Marx, more than Enlightenment philosophers, explains dynamics central to modern American life: the transformation wrought by capitalism and industrialization.
• Smith’s "Wealth of Nations" critiqued state-centered mercantilism, but Marx’s critique addressed what capitalism had become—factory-driven and global.
• Quote:

  “Smith was mostly writing about... the mercantilist system... But the Industrial Revolution had not yet taken place... That’s the Industrial Revolution that Marx was writing about.” — Andrew Hartman [16:29]

3. Marx’s Unique Observations about the United States

[22:01 – 27:51]

• Marx’s early fascination: America might be the first to socialism due to political democracy and lack of aristocracy.
• Tocqueville’s warning (that democracy might lead to wealth redistribution) was, to Marx, a promising sign.
• Over time, Marx recognized how westward expansion ("the lid on the pressure cooker" [25:57]) and the centrality of private property stymied class conflict and revolution in America.
• Racial and geographic divisions (e.g., the frontier) allowed the elite to diffuse labor unrest.

4. The "Gospel of Success" and American Industrialization

[27:51 – 33:20]

• Shift from rural, self-directed labor to regimented factory work was traumatic for new industrial workers.
• "Gospel of Success" emerges as a top-down ideology:

  “Pull yourself up by your bootstraps... emerges [from elites] in the mid to late 19th century... it’s about being virtuous, not drinking, not being lazy.” — Andrew Hartman [31:25]

• Factory discipline required a cultural campaign to normalize industrial capitalism—leading to deeply American attitudes around work ethic, personal responsibility, and self-reliance.

5. The Corporation and Capitalist Evolution

[33:20 – 38:39]

• Corporations became dominant economic actors just before Marx’s death.
• Marx’s paradoxical view:
  • Capitalism/corporations necessary for progress—they aggregate workers for class consciousness.
  • Transition logic: If workers collectively recognized their role, they could socialize ownership.
• On public company structure:

  “It’s a pretty savvy way to distribute ownership... but 90% belongs to 10% of the people.” — Katie [36:46]

• Ongoing leftist and Marxist debates about reforming—versus abolishing—corporations, especially in an age of shareholder primacy and climate crisis.

6. "Working Class": Who Is It, Really?

[38:39 – 46:05]

• US conception: "Working class" often used as code for white, blue-collar, rural/conservative populations; often politicized without meaningful advocacy.
• Marxist conception:

  “Class is not an identity. It’s a relationship... Do you own the means of production? ... If you have to sell your labor... then you're working class.” — Andrew Hartman [40:49]

• Most Americans are “working class” by this relationship, but US culture and politics have historically avoided fostering class consciousness.
• The shift to "middle class" rhetoric in the 20th century blurred class relations further.

7. Professional Managerial Class (PMC) and Modern Class Dynamics

[46:05 – 49:20]

• The Ehrenreichs’ "professional managerial class" concept captures a privileged stratum of workers (e.g., professionals, intellectuals) who may serve or resist capitalist interests.
• Debate intensified post-2008, Occupy Wall Street, Bernie Sanders era—young PMCs facing precarity began shifting left.

8. FDR, the New Deal, and the Limits of Reform

[49:20 – 56:39]

• FDR as both "class traitor" and "savior of capitalism."

  “He becomes, both a class traitor and capitalism’s savior.” — Andrew Hartman [50:00]

• The New Deal brought state intervention, labor rights, and social safety nets—but didn’t threaten capital’s dominant position.
• Expansion of social democracy (as in Scandinavia) is preferable to US capitalism, but still subject to rollback by capital unless deeper power changes occur.

9. Reform, Revolution, and the Persistence of Inequality

[56:39 – 63:10]

• Even the most egalitarian reforms (social democracy, New Deal) are vulnerable unless capital is fundamentally dethroned.
  • Capital naturally seeks to consolidate political power and undermine gains for labor.
• Socialist aspiration: Not utopia, but “fixing” the root imbalance—though perpetual struggle is acknowledged.
• Hartman counters "human nature" arguments as ahistorical, emphasizing humanity’s malleability and history’s variation.

  “Humans have been on planet Earth probably for about 300,000 years... Most of human life has been in [non-hierarchical] situations.” — Andrew Hartman [61:25]

10. Marxism vs. Neoliberalism: Production or Consumption?

[65:32 – 72:37]

• Neoliberal economies focus on consumption and consumer "freedom"; Marxist theory centers on systems of production and labor exploitation.
• Keynesian economics prioritized demand and redistribution to maintain stability—which helped in mid-20th century, but failed to tackle labor exploitation.
• Quote:

  “Keynes is not the answer if you want socialism... The labor theory of value still matters... ultimately, in a capitalist economy... capital can only be accumulated by exploiting labor.” — Andrew Hartman [71:15]

11. Race, Gender, and the Vexed History of American Socialism

[72:37 – 81:16]

• Race:
  • Marx recognized—but perhaps underestimated—how racism divided workers, hindering solidarity and revolution.
  • W.E.B. Du Bois’s concept of the "psychological wages of whiteness" explains why white workers often aligned with elites rather than Black workers, undermining class unity.

  “White workers came to be more concerned with staying above Black workers than challenging the ruling class.” — Andrew Hartman [74:16]

• Gender:
  • Marx/Engels had limited analysis of women's oppression; Engels’ “Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State” is foundational for Marxist feminism.
  • 20th-century thinkers like Angela Davis extended Marxism to seriously include gender and unpaid labor.

  “Engels was a much better feminist than Marx was.” — Andrew Hartman [80:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American class:

  “Almost all of us are the working class. And it actually gives us agency as a group of people... to overcome our situation.” — Andrew Hartman [00:23, 40:49]

• On the New Deal’s dual legacy:

  “The reforms made life better for lots of working people, and they also ensured that American capitalism would persist in some fashion.” — Andrew Hartman [54:00]

• On corporations:

  “We don’t want to destroy the corporation... They allow us a sort of like easy route to socializing ownership, socializing the means of production.” — Andrew Hartman [36:20]

• On race and class:

  “The working class could not be divided along race, ethnic, national, gender... As long as the working class is branded in a black skin, it'll never be free.” — Andrew Hartman, referencing Marx [26:20]

• On socialism and human nature:

  “Life will always be a struggle, but it doesn’t have to be this much of a struggle.” — Andrew Hartman [60:06]

Important Timestamps

• 05:10 — Marx as a philosopher of freedom and the American obsession with liberty
• 13:40 — Marx vs. Enlightenment thinkers in US history
• 22:01 — Why Marx thought socialism might happen first in America
• 27:51 — The rise of the "gospel of success" and its function
• 33:20 — Emergence, purpose, and future of the corporation
• 40:49 — How Marxists define "working class" vs. the American political use
• 46:05 — Introduction and analysis of the professional managerial class (PMC)
• 50:00 — FDR, the New Deal, and the fate of American capitalism
• 56:39 — The case for going beyond reform/social democracy
• 65:32 — Marxism versus neoliberalism: production, consumption, and labor value
• 72:37 — Race, gender, and the barriers to solidarity and revolution

Tone and Style

The conversation is intellectually rigorous but accessible, blending historical analysis, economic theory, and personal anecdotes. Both Katie and Hartman use humor and self-awareness to open up complex ideas to a broad audience, often referencing contemporary political debates, podcast culture, and even viral memes.

Conclusion

This wide-ranging discussion presents Marx not as a relic of radical politics, but as a thinker whose insights into work, freedom, and capital continue to illuminate the contradictions and struggles at the heart of American society. Listeners come away with a deeper understanding of what class means, why American attitudes toward capitalism and labor are so uniquely loaded, and how race and gender remain enduring—and essential—challenges to building solidarity. The episode offers a compelling invitation to see personal finance and economic systems through a richer, more critical historical lens.

Next Episode Preview:
Katie will interview a neoclassical economist to explore the opposite end of economic thought—specifically, how to end low-wage work in America.

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