← The Money with Katie Show
The Money with Katie Show
On Influencers, Beauty Culture & "Corporate Confidence," with Kate Kennedy
01:18:10
Examining the overlap between culture and capitalism.
Loading summary
Transcript118 lines
- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Voco Hotels by ihg, where you should prepare to be charmed. From Chicago to Myrtle beach to Saranac Lake, each Voco in the US has its own local flavor and unique detail. Our hosts welcome you with little extras and you'll find rooms for catching up on me time and full service bars and restaurants that are perfect for us time. Come on in and live the Voco life and book your next day@vocohotels.com vocohotels.com your arc from being a subscriber of American Cheerleader magazine to hosting diabolical lies. I mean, truly nothing like it.
- [00:41]
B
Growth is possible, everyone. I know. I'm like, I always joke in college I was going through a Bama rush in a Reagan Bush T shirt, so anything is possible. Guys, Ronald Reagan for President. Let's make America great again. Welcome back to the Money with Katie Show. This is Katie Gates. Daddy toss in as always. And this week's episode of the Money with Katie show is a little bit different because it's actually the interview that I did with my friend Kate Kennedy on her podcast Be There in Five over the summer for Rich Girl Nation. Part of the reason that I wanted to reshare this interview today is because I recently found out that Barnes and Noble named Rich Girl Nation one of their top 10 business books of 2025. So I'm really excited about that. And if you haven't gotten a copy yet, we'll put a link in the show notes for you to order Rich Girl Nation or you can check it out from your local library. That's always awesome, but it was fun to revisit this conversation with that context. Now, over the summer when the book was coming out, I probably did a dozen give or take interviews on other people's shows about the subject matter in the book, and it's always really interesting to hear how different people receive the material and what they find to be worth talking about. But this interview in particular was one of my favorites that I did because I felt like we got into some meandering topics that don't come up as much on personal finance shows. This is a pop culture podcast, which is probably why, and so I wanted to share it here because I think you guys are going to enjoy it. It should be a fun, easy, light listen. We get into the hot girl hamster wheel, we get into influencer culture a little bit, which I really enjoyed. Kate's take on this and just kind of the flip of consumerism where, well, you'll see. Please Enjoy this conversation from the Be There in Five podcast on the Money with Katie show.
- [02:52]
A
Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Be There and five podcast. Our guest today is host of the Money with Katie podcast and author of the newsletter of the same name with the Morning Brew. She's also the co host of a podcast I know so many of you are obsessed with called Diabolical Lies, which is on Substack and has absolutely taken off this year and I think is amazingly named after the thing Harrison Bucker said women are told.
- [03:13]
B
If I'm not mistaken, it is my muse, Harrison Bucker.
- [03:17]
A
Today I want to talk about Rich Girl Nation, her brilliant book. It's a guide to thriving under capitalism that points out the nuances of how women experience money differently. It approaches like, I think what can be very intimidating or as we talked about when Katie was last on the podcast, like a shame spiraly subject. But to me, this book approaches it with like as much wit and compassion as it does like helpful intangible how tos and not to mention a lot of thought provoking cultural analysis. And I'm a fan of her brain. I know a lot of the best are a fan of her work and I'm so excited you're back with us today. Welcome back to the Be There and Vibe podcast. Katie Gatti. Ta Sam.
- [03:52]
B
I'm so happy to be here back in the land of the Beths. I'm a Beth myself. I love the Beths. So thank you for having me back. I'm so excited to talk today.
- [04:01]
A
I was reflecting on when you were on last year, like last year you found my book, I think asked me to come on your show. As we're talking on your show, I'm like, do you want to just come on mine? I just want to keep talking. And then we just kind of like kept in touch and we'll like voice note each other and we still never met.
- [04:17]
B
That was the long game though because before I found you, I had like obsessively listened to your back catalog and read your book and then like basically distributed decided that I was gonna make you be friends with me. So I think my master plan really paid off.
- [04:30]
A
It really is cool too because it's like for you to pursue me from my work and then for me to become obsessed with yours and to learn so much from you I think is a really, I really like not only with your financial work, which we talked about last time you were on the pod, but do you mind if we really quick touch on Diabolical lies which you started when last Caro, Clare Burke.
- [04:49]
B
My co host, and I started Diabolical Lies back in, I think it was last summer, around this time, like July. And that was also like a friendship that started with voice notes and then became a we should have a podcast. And we basically started doing it kind of as like a. These are things that we are interested in and want to talk about but feel like there is something in the mainstream popular conversation that's not being said, or there's like an angle that isn't being touched on that we want to talk about. I remember our very first episode we did after the Sunday Times piece on Ballerina Farm went really viral. And that episode we sat down to do it and I thought we were just gonna have like this fun conversation about trad wives. And it devolved into this grander discussion of is free will real? Like, does anyone have free will? Does Hannah Nealman have free will? And that was really when I realized, like, oh, we're off to the races. Like, this is not gonna be a normal podcast. We've done a lot of interesting work on it and I've learned so much doing it. Like, we switch off every week of who's going to lead the episode and kind of teach the other person about the material. So we really took a note from the Michael Hobbs cinematic universe. He has podcasts like you're wrong about maintenance phase. If books could kill. And that's the format that they do where one, one co host teaches the other co host about something and then the co host who's learning is kind of going in without any background and just live reacting to what they're hearing and responding to it. And so some of the episodes that I've done, like we did one about Luigi Mangione and who becomes a terrorist in America. That one was very heavy. I like read the Patriot act for it. I did one about the men are not all right crisis and like modern masculinity. Done one about kind of shifting gender dynamics in the Republican Party. And like the Kristi Gnome of it all, I did a really deep dive on capitalism.
- [06:49]
A
What about dermal fillers? That was really interesting.
- [06:51]
B
Oh my God, the Injectables episode. Yeah. So really, like nothing is off the table. Anything that interests us, we'll talk about. But it all does typically, just because of our interest areas, come back to economics, gender, or politics in some way, which is basically everything. That's a way of saying we'll talk about whatever we want.
- [07:09]
A
I have the same problem where by the time I'm at The end of the episode. My existential questions are so great that the research I've just done or the dissertation I've just performed, I'm like, what the fuck was the point of that? But that's almost the sign of a good deep dive, I think is going so in the weeds that it almost, like expands your thinking.
- [07:32]
B
Yes.
- [07:32]
A
To a point that almost feels overwhelming.
- [07:35]
B
Yeah, no, I. I love that. And I. I love your deep dives, by the way. I think that you're right. I think when you're doing a good deep dive, the sign is that you should be less sure of how you feel about it.
- [07:46]
A
Thousand percent.
- [07:46]
B
Like, you should walk away understanding a level of nuance that you're like, oh, that actually was not as black and white as I thought it was. Like, I love walking away from those conversations being like, oh, oh, damn. That, like, actually completely changed my perspective on this. I think that's really powerful since we.
- [08:03]
A
Uniquely have a similar job and I can't ask this that many people this question. I'm struggling a bit with becoming like a miniature expert on things for like two week periods that my brain is very one in, one out, information wise. And I feel like my short term memory has suffered since the deep diving on the podcast because I have to retain and process a ton of information in really short periods of time. Mm.
- [08:26]
B
I haven't noticed, like, short term memory loss yet that's probably coming. But what I have noticed is that because of just the sheer intake where I will be reading, like four books at a time constantly, there are so many different sources that I like to read from, where I think they're covering things in unique ways. So, like, I love reading socialist feminist sources because I think they're really good at connecting the dots in ways that, like, you're not gonna get in a mainstream newspaper or in a newspaper that has, like, a lot of corporate interests backing it, I will sometimes, like, forget where I'm learning things and then be like, I know this is not an original idea. I know I didn't think of this, but I could not even begin to tell you where I learned this. So, like, the chances that I'm gonna be able to cite this properly. Cause it was just one line in one of the books that I'm reading right now, but it's fun. My favorite thing in the world is just getting like, super cracked out on coffee and spending six going down rabbit holes and then coming up for air later and feeling like the always sunny murder board where you have, like, all the things connecting and you're like, I can see the matrix. I can see it. And like, when that happens and it all connects, there's. It's like such a high. There's no better feeling.
- [09:40]
A
It really is a high. And I'm glad you said that because I feel the same way about deep diving and researching things. And sometimes I think to myself, is this how other people feel at music festivals? Because I feel very lost at those.
- [09:54]
B
Yes, I relate to that.
- [09:57]
A
Something about information gathering is like, really exciting to me. And my short term memory loss. I think it's like what disappoints me about myself is that I'll know everything about something for a brief time, but then I can't go back and remember all the stuff I talked about in a deep dive.
- [10:13]
B
Do you ever go back and listen to your own.
- [10:15]
A
No, I have. I have such a strict rule now because I used to do that, but then I would delete episodes and now people are like, where? Episodes one. So 6:44. And I'm like, oh, I just thought I was annoying on a bad day. Okay, so obviously there's so much good content in this book and each chapter focuses on, like a different relationship we have to money. I can only focus on a few. And you knew, you know, I was going to dive into the hot girl hamster wheel, which you brought up last year, that I was like, and I think about this and I reference this all the time because I'll let you, in your own words, explain to people the hot girl hamster wheel and what chapter one is all about before I get into my thoughts.
- [10:52]
B
Sure. And I'm excited to hear your thoughts. So the hot girl hamster wheel is how I describe the expenses that are required to maintain kind of what I will jokingly call the acceptable feminine appearance. So the thing about the hamster wheel and why I call it the hamster wheel is because, as all of us know, none of this is one and done. This is not something you can purchase one time and be done with. All of it has to be constantly maintained and re upped because your body will slowly, over time, reject the modifications and enhancements that you're making. And the particularly insidious thing about it, and what really kind of brought my attention to it from a financial angle, is that these are bodily investments that you are making, aesthetic interventions that you are making that actually leave you worse off. Like there's actually something kind of coercive about them. So think about the way that, like when you get a gel manicure, how nice it looks at first. Like, it will make you better at first, but then as time goes on and it grows out and it starts looking bad, not only does, like, the product itself look worse, but your natural nail underneath now looks worse too. It's probably yellowing, it's probably brittle. You can't just, like, snap your fingers and go back to the way that you were before. Same goes for all my ladies out there that are on the highlight grind, like me. When the highlights grow out, it looks worse. Or, you know, any hair color, really anything that grows out is going to look worse than it did naturally before you changed it, because that line of demarcation is, like, kind of unsightly. So now you're kind of trapped. You can't just stop doing it, or you could, but again, you are in some ways, quote, unquote, worse off than before. I think this takes on a whole nother level of intensity when we're talking about Botox and filler, particularly things like preventative Botox for young people and this idea that you need to start early. And they're now finding that, like with all these people who start getting Botox in their early 20s, that your muscle isn't decaying, but when you're not using those muscles for that long, the skin actually thins and gets crepier on top of it. So I think that in a lot of ways, we participate in these ecstatic interventions because we sense that the way that we look matters. We know that the way that we look impacts how other people treat us. Pretty privilege is real, both socially and in the workplace. Financially, all of these things are true. And yet I don't think that many of us really think about what we're getting ourselves into when we say, step onto that hamster wheel. And the way in which every dollar that we spend really functions like a commitment to spend more in the future. And so in the book I talk about, let's quantify this, right? How much money are we really talking about? And on average, as of 2017, so, like, this has certainly gone up, both because of inflation and because of the increasing prevalence of Botox and filler and other cosmeceuticals, the average woman was spending something like $300 a month on aesthetic upkeep. And so I just looked at that through the lens of opportunity cost. All right, well, if she's investing that money instead, what would she have? And over a 40 year career, we're talking about a million dollars. So that was a really revelatory moment for me of I know that most of us understand what we're spending right now. I don't think many of us understand what we're really giving up in the long term to pursue these norms.
- [14:12]
A
Sometimes I have trouble really grasping things in a quantifiable means, but something you said that clicked with me of holy shit. Was when you were talking about your expenses. I think it was when you were maybe first out of college or like the early years in the corporate world with a paycheck that you're spending on beauty maintenance was a month's worth of income. So you had to work a month. I forgot you were. Something about that. I was like, that's insane. That, like, yes, to have to a month of your income is going to just like maintaining your appearance for this, like, arbitrary return we've convinced ourselves is there. That materially is not there. That, as you argue socially, is kind of there, unfortunately, in some ways, but not in a way that benefits your wealth building. It's actually quite wealth depleting. But yeah, I thought that was a really interesting exercise.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah, so I basically at the time, I was taking home around fifteen hundred dollars every two weeks. So I knew that like my net income every month was around three grand after taxes and I was contributing to a 401k. But that didn't really feel like my savings at the time because I couldn't touch it. And so when I saw that I was spending about in line with the average. And by the way, this is why I always encourage women when they do this to do the kind of hot girl detox and figure this out for themselves is to annualize all your costs. So the tricky thing about beauty spending is that because it's all happening on different timelines and on different cadences, it's death by a thousand cuts. You know, when you go to get your hair done and it costs $200 or whatever that like you're spending a lot of money. But if you're also doing the eyebrows and the eyelashes and the nails and the pedicures and the tans and the waxes and whatever, it can be really powerful to be like, okay, how often am I doing this and what does it cost? Every time after tip. Figure out what that represents for an entire year and then add all that up. And then once you annualize it, you can see it contextually against your salary. And that will really put it into context for you. Because when I saw that, okay, I'm spending what, 3, 500, $3,600 a year on this stuff, and I make $3,000 a month. I was like, oh, my God, is that really worth it? Am I really getting six weeks worth of labor value out of this? And the bottom line, and I think the tricky thing is that, like, the closer you already are to the beauty standard, the less risk you have for basically straying from it. So if you are a thin, able bodied, white CIS woman who already kind of conforms to, like, Eurocentric beauty standards, you basically face no risk from getting off the hamster wheel, realistically speaking. And so, like, the more your natural state diverges from that Eurocentric beauty standard, the more you might feel like that risk is real. And in some cases it really is. I mean, particularly like the data around the wage penalty for fat women is extreme. The last I checked, it was something like 12% wage penalty if your BMI is over 30. So this stuff is real. So I don't want to, you know, downplay it or suggest that, like, that feeling of vulnerability or risk that you might have from divesting from these systems is all in your head. But I do think it's really important to talk about what that ROI actually is. What are you actually getting? Because, like, yes, there is an roi, a little one. It is incremental, but it pales in comparison to the ROI that you could be getting by investing that money instead. I mean, it's just not even close. So you're probably investing a lot of money in your appearance, if you are, because you think it's going to bring you confidence, safety, security, stability, all these very natural human needs and desires. But having financial strength in an extractive system that you control, that nobody can take away from you. And like, Unilever can't change when they decide fluffy brows are out and thin brows are in again. That is pretty invaluable to me. So I think we just have to be honest about what those ROIs are and not get caught up in the industrialized beauty industry's messaging that, like, the only power that a woman should be pursuing is beauty. Because as my favorite thinker, and now hopefully I can consider her a friend. Tracy McMillan Cottam says beauty is the only power that women are allowed to use but never own. It is rented and it costs a lot of money to keep renting it.
- [18:51]
A
Yeah, dang that. If I had a pen near me, I'd write that down because. And I wrote down so many quotes in this chapter because regarding, like, empowerment and social capital. Because I think something too that this chapter tied together really nicely is how crazy it is to the way marketing has co opted Financial terminology to essentially trick you into thinking you're meaningfully investing in yourself, beauty and wellness. Hijacking financial language to, like, convince people that consumption is a fiscally responsible thing for, to your point, so smart. That lack of return is crazy. Yeah.
- [19:28]
B
And I think empowering, too, is such a funny word. We talked about this in our recent Skinny Talk episode of Diabolical Lies, how you're now seeing this shift happen in overt thinspiration content where they're talking about how it's empowering to do XYZ be xyz. Typically, we're talking about restrictive tendencies. And we were really trying to get into inside that word empowering. And, like, what does that really mean? Because it feels so fuzzy and feminist, but really, it just means give power. And so, yeah, in a system where being white, blonde, thin, and hot gives you power, then, yeah, I guess it's empowering to conform to that. But is that really the goal? Like, should we be asking bigger and better questions about what it's all for? And the work of a woman named Jessica Defino has been so impactful for me. I highly recommend everybody check out her substack, the review of Beauty if you're into this conversation and, like, want to get bigger and deeper into the beauty part of it specifically. But she always kind of reframes these conversations in the marketing co option of feminist language, as we have to remember what feminism is. Feminism is not about empowering individual women to have more power under capitalism, under patriarchy. It's about the collective liberation from gender oppression. And so when you take that broader view, it makes way more sense why this isn't good for anybody. When you think about it through that lens of gendered oppression, I think we can start to have more productive and substantive conversations about it. But, yeah, I mean, it's crazy the way in which the marketing has really almost replaced the more philosophical underpinnings in our mainstream conversations about these things and, like, really fooled a lot of us into thinking that we're making really good choices for ourselves. And, I mean, I don't know. I still. I still get my hair done. Like, I got a manicure for my book launch. So it's not that you can't participate. I mean, it's about understanding what that participation actually costs and making sure that you're participating in a way that you actually feel really good about. And, I don't know, not everything you do has to be an explicitly feminist choice. That's something Jessica says, but. But it's important that we don't recast those decisions as feminist in retrospect to kind of like retroactively justify the consumption. It's okay to consume things, it's okay to make choices that are not feminist. But we should call it what it is and kind of go into it. Eyes wide open. We will be right back to my conversation with Kate right after this quick break. One of the best money moves I made was stopped trying to figure everything out alone. As I made progress and got closer to my overall goal, I started to second guess whether I was missing anything. Like was I as on track as I thought? Were my investment allocations appropriate for me? This is the plague of the self taught personal finance nerd. Does it sound familiar? Then I worked with Domain Money's certified financial planners and I got the peace of mind that I needed. They led me through a strategic restructuring of my asset allocation, my cash cushion, and they even helped me pinpoint the perfect timing for an eventual home purchase. And it turned out it was actually later than I thought. What I love is that they don't give cookie cutter advice. They actually look at what you're trying to achieve. Then they optimize everything around that. Plus they use a flat fee structure. You know exactly what you're paying right out of the gate. You can hear from Domain Money's head of financial planning, Adriana Adams, in my episode with her from September 3rd called a CFP on outdated advice, jumping social classes and why Money mindset matters. Ready to stop guessing and start winning with your money? See what the experience is like for yourself by booking a free strategy session to see if Domain Money is a good fit. Head to moneywithkatie.com SL domain money to book your session. That's Money with Katie.com domain money I'm a real client of Domain Money via Money with Katie. I receive compensation and have an incentive to promote Domain Money. See important disclosures at DMN M N Y Co X.
- [24:05]
A
Something that struck me when you were talking about how wealth depleting the big picture of the hamster wheel can be is what's kind of a bit insidious is the people responsible for influencing us. A lot of times for this hyper consumption with beauty products and procedures and whatnot are influencers. And they are uniquely the only people for whom their consumption actually does produce a return.
- [24:33]
B
So interesting.
- [24:34]
A
Which incentivizes them to get us to buy shit when we don't produce a return. That's an interesting thing for me to think about too, because I kind of laugh when bloggers talk about like investment pieces and capsule wardrobes. Unless, you know, you have a Birkin or something. I don't really know that an equipment blouse from 2012 really did much for me in the resale market. But, like, that is kind of how influencers adopt it from marketers and it trickles down and there's just. Yeah, a lot of different motivations there.
- [25:01]
B
That's really interesting. I think I've heard you talk about that in the context of home renovations before, too. Like an influencer. Renovating their home is, like, doing it just as much for the content and the brand partnerships as they are, like, resale value and how.
- [25:15]
A
Yeah, I think they need something to talk about.
- [25:18]
B
Yeah, I agree. You know how hard, like, honestly, it would be so hard to be a lifestyle influencer. I could never. Oh, because it's. I'm so boring. It's kind of like reality television. You have to manufacture storylines for yourself a thousand percent.
- [25:30]
A
I think that their recommendation kind of being rooted in something that they actually are seeing a return on because of your engagement is an important distinction in their mindset when recommending something, because every product they buy is an opportunity to make affiliate money. What's funny is because you did the math in the chapter of, like, calculating your opportunity cost of beauty spending, I was like, not that I was proud of myself, but I do think that balayage ombre acceptance of darker roots has been transformational for my budget.
- [26:03]
B
Thank you, Hailey Bieber. Yeah, Teddy Brat. What? What the fuck is the name of the hair color now? I agree. I completely agree.
- [26:11]
A
Oh, is it like, old money blonde or something? I have no fucking clue. I hate those terms too. It's almost really interesting to, like, see patterns in yourself. For example, I didn't get rouge status last year for Sephora and I was like, hell, yeah. I'm a savings queen.
- [26:25]
B
Low maintenance queen.
- [26:26]
A
But looking at the pattern of spending, there was two transactions. One of them was $719. And guess when that was. It was November 6, 2024. So it's like consumption as emotional regulation, like, in front of my face. Even though I intellectually know this is something you shouldn't do, I still very much do it.
- [26:47]
B
That is so. I've never actually seen, like, such a perfect black and white example of that. That's hysterical.
- [26:55]
A
Like, why did I run to Sephora? That was almost the most offensive place I could have run.
- [27:01]
B
Well, oh, my God. It's so. I guess, like, what's been really interesting to me on the beauty note is, like, the Mar a Lago face Phenomenon and the way that beauty work, aesthetic intervention and just like gender dynamics more broadly are playing out in our politics right now. I find it so fascinating. And something that I wrote about for Salon magazine recently was kind of connecting that gender norm, orthodoxy, resurgence and this idea that you have to be like performing your femininity more aggressively now or that that's just kind of culturally where we're moving because the culture is kind of have it experiencing this like conservative backlash that is so connected to our economic situation. So I think that a very popular, maybe the most popular example of this and something that I've noticed is this obsession culturally with 1950s nostalgia and how that was the time that is memorialized by these television programs. That because that was kind of like when television became very popular in the United States. You have like Leave it to Beaver and like shows like that that demonstrate these very quote unquote traditional nuclear family dynamics. And that that even at the time was kind of propagandized. But like now it's really heavily propagandized and is associated with this period of American prospects, prosperity and a strong middle class in a time when things were stable and America was powerful. And like, I mean, it's in the slogan Make America great Again. It's this callback to that earlier period which by the way is a ripoff of Ronald Reagan's. That was Ronald Reagan's slogan to make America great Again. So that's a loaded, rich text that we could spend some time with. But that the thing about the 1950s that I don't think enough people realize is that the corporate tax rate was very high. The top marginal tax rate for high income people was 91% labor power and union density was at an all time high. So basically workers had power and corporations had much less power. It was a different time economically and it was a time when our government actually intervened to create a middle class. But because we don't have a strong economic analysis or like a material analysis on the left, all we're left with is all these cultural explanations for why things are shitty now. And when we look Back to the 1950s, we look at the gender roles and we go, oh, it must have been good because of the gender roles. When in reality it was a completely different economic paradigm that with policy shifts we could get back to gender roles be damned. But I think that like that economic upheaval and the general sense of instability that people feel and like that precariousness that just seeps into everyday life now for increasingly more and more people, I Think that that is really a big, big driver of this recommitment to and turning back toward these gender norms that people think and associate with that level of stability. And so obviously, aesthetic upkeep and performing your femininity. I mean, all of that is connected, but yeah, I mean, it runs really, really deep. And I do think that that's why more popular understanding of, like, economically what is happening in our country and why it's happening is so important for people, because I think it makes it easier to see through a lot of the bullshit.
- [30:30]
A
Oh, for sure. And researching the 1950s propaganda era of the United States post war, it's like a hobbyist venture of mine. I'm obsessed with actual accounts of people from that time, women from that time. And when you read, like, even I just thought an interesting tidbit, like the trope of vacuuming in heels, June Cleaver vibes, like, that's actually rooted in women unceremoniously pushed out of the workforce when people return from war. And they wanted to be in their homes and feel dignified and dressed for work. And it actually wasn't necessarily for their husbands when they got home. And I think that thinking kind of humanizing women in that era too, and how they were expressing themselves in the face of being under such a strict patriarchal structure is super fascinating. To give them more credit than just being these cartoonish housewives.
- [31:20]
B
The popular understanding of that time now is so far from the reality. I mean, I think there's also the fact that that period led to the greatest women's and civil rights movements that this country has ever seen. There was a strong backlash to essentially like, stripping of women's economic freedom and rights. And the women's rights movement of the 1970s is still so responsible for a lot of the. We're still enjoying the benefits of that. Their work for anti discrimination. And like the fact that you can get a bank account now. I mean, all these things came out of the 1970s women's movement. And all of that was a response to the culture of the 1950s. And people being like, we don't want this. I think too, like, I mean, I talk shit about Ronald Reagan all the time. It's like one of my pastimes. But Reagan is, when he was governor of California, was like the first one to institute no fault divorce. And then eventually it rippled through the rest of the country and women's, like, the suicide rate for women went down by 20%. So this idea that we're. The fact that like, no fault divorce is like, even in the conversation right now, taking that away is terrifying, Genuinely terrifying.
- [32:27]
A
And this is why I get so mad when Maddie Pruitt's, you know, out here on her podcast being like, feminism's to blame for X, Y, like, the conservative people with mics love, love, love to blame feminism for everything. And I'm like, hey, like, do you know how you're getting paid? You have a credit card. You have autonomy. You are so indebted to the work of so many women before you and shitting on the very thing that puts you in a position to be in front of this mic. And it drives me absolutely insane.
- [32:56]
B
Same. It's so infuriating. I'm like, Gloria Steinem, don't look, Gloria. Stay off the Internet. I hope you never see this shit. It's also so frustrating for me because I think so much of what they critique feminism for is actually capitalism. And like, in a weird way, in some of these circles, you'll notice that they actually will start to use anti capitalist language. But then, like, it's a movement called reactionary feminism. I think that's kind of how you could classify it, which is like, feminism has gone too far. Feminism is bad for women. It's very, like, heteropessimistic. So basically, men are trash. They'll never improve. A lot of biological essentialism. If you listen to the complaints that a lot of the Matty Pruitt types have about modern culture, modern work, the way that society is structured, almost all of it is actually a critique and a complaint about capitalism, but they don't have the language to express that.
- [33:53]
A
I would love to listen to a diabolical lies about Matty Pruitt capitalism.
- [33:57]
B
I'm gonna write that down while we're on the subject. Anyone listening who's not in the Patreon? You need the. You need the be there in five Patreon episode about Maddy Pruitt in your life yesterday.
- [34:08]
A
God, she kills me. And you're talking about just. Is it Defino or Delfino?
- [34:12]
B
Defino.
- [34:13]
A
I love her newsletter. And I work about beauty, and I think sometimes people are struggle to have this conversation about the hot girl hamster wheel and about beauty standards because they can be things that we acknowledge are big picture oppressive or made in the male gaze that we've adopted and been conditioned by, et cetera, et cetera. And we can also like them, and they bring us comfort. And per what you were saying about your highlights in the book, picking and choosing what you maintain. And. And I have to say, the thing that Forced me off the wheel. Not by choice, weirdly, but by default was motherhood and physically running out of time to perform a lot of beauty rituals. This is probably not the correct use of the word per our convo. The thing that was empowering to me is like, choosing to re engage. It's not realistic for me to ever break free of beauty standards entirely. That would be a type of empowerment I wouldn't experience. But I genuinely did experience a positive change in my life about choosing to re engage with them from a position of having survived without them. And I think there's another layer of how beauty standards affect moms, not only because of the tropes of bouncing back and stuff, but there is something like about bodily autonomy and identity that, like, almost going back to some of your beauty rituals feels like a reclamation, even though they represent something that inherently, it's like a mess if I think about it too hard. I really think that when you line item these expenses like you advise people to do, it creates that situation where by choosing to remove or reallocate some of these things, approaching beauty from a place of choice and not obligation actually feels very different to me. And when you step off the wheel of. You don't really need a lot of the things, and if you step off, you're like, oh, I'm fine.
- [36:00]
B
Yeah, I think sometimes, like, I. I recommend taking them off one by one and, you know, just seeing how each one feels and kind of like treating it like an experiment. Because what I experienced was just that I got a lot of time and mental energy back and that it was really valuable. There was a period last year where I did stop coloring my hair entirely and I let it grow out. And I finally decided, like, okay, I could live with this. This would be fine. But I would like some, like, highlights around my face or, like, I'm gonna do, like, a balayage. I'm gonna basically compromise with myself and do mostly my real hair color, but with, like, little pops of color just to brighten me up a little bit, because I prefer me that way. After spending 15 years having full, full highlights and being very blonde. And, you know what's interesting is I basically didn't wear makeup for, like, a year, and it was really nice. And what actually got me wearing it again and wanting to wear makeup again and enjoying it was I went through this hard period earlier this spring where I had the flu for a period. I was in kind of a funk. I had this foster dog from LA after the fires who was just, like, so sweet, but so Much work. And I just felt constantly spread thin by this puppy. And like after like a month of just feeling like this dark cloud, I was like, I need to put a little bit of effort and time and like spend the effort and time on myself again. I think that will make me feel better. And it really did get me out of the funk. So it felt like this lever I could pull to improve my mood after a hard time that I can now engage with freely or not. And like, I don't really feel super strongly one way or the other. I feel comfortable as myself both ways as opposed to what it felt like back then, which was like my baseline state where if I deviated away from it, I would feel very insecure. And that has been kind of an interesting coming back around to it now and being like, okay, how can I engage with fashion or makeup or like self expression in a way that feels really fun and embodied and like additive and not. Oh, I have to present this way to be acceptable. There was a really interesting quote in an interview that Jessica did with another writer who I think's name is Camille Sojit. I don't want to butcher that. She writes a substack about like the concept of pleasure and something that they had both I think kind of expressed in this interview was ever since I divested from a lot of these routines. And I think Jessica like never wears makeup. I mean like she's completely bare faced, like completely natural all the time. And I think she said something to the effect of like, oh, do you feel naturally beautiful now? And she was like, well, no, I don't. But I feel really good about myself in ways that don't presently include the way that I look. I think that there's actually a lot of power and that neutrality too, giving your appearance less power over your day to day self conception.
- [38:58]
A
Oh, a thousand percent. I don't know if you keep up with Addison Rae, but have you noticed she doesn't wear makeup in any of her.
- [39:05]
B
Like, I have not.
- [39:06]
A
She's completely doing press for this album without wearing makeup. And I'm like, that is awesome.
- [39:12]
B
That's so cool. That's really that like that. Honestly, I know that sounds dumb to be like, that's important, but I really think that that's partially why the decisions we make about beauty and self presentation are more than just personal choices because they do impact other people. Like that's how beauty standards work. That's how norms work. So yeah, I think like sometimes I'll talk to women who have let their hair go gray and they're like, yeah. I mean, do I like love having gray hair? Not always. But I do feel powerful in the sense that I feel like I'm doing something liberatory for other women who like see me and might feel incrementally more comfortable going gray themselves and like allowing themselves to age. So I think that's a fun part of it too.
- [39:53]
A
Did you watch the Alex Cooper documentary?
- [39:55]
B
Yeah, I did.
- [39:56]
A
There was a lot of important stuff in that documentary that this is not the main takeaway, but walking away from it, I was like, I didn't get enough detail on the glow up between. Everybody bullied me. I never, like boys wouldn't talk to me to like dating professional athletes in college and being this like blonde bombshell.
- [40:13]
B
Yes.
- [40:13]
A
She went on Armchair Expert and actually which is a podcast I don't normally listen to, but she kind of explained that entire part of it.
- [40:20]
B
Really? What'd she say? I didn't hear this.
- [40:22]
A
She talked about how transformative the experience was when she was like 14 and her mom let her get highlights and people responded to her differently. And I had the same experience where I went from invisible to getting a disproportionate amount of attention when I went from like mousy natural to blonde in ways that I think you internalize so deeply in terms of people just even like seeing you, acknowledging you. And that sounds so insane because. Cause I love the kind of mousy in between. Dark blonde. It's not about the hair color. It's about your experience and how people react to you when you participate in certain beauty trends or rituals. And you guys talked about this on the skitty talk episode too, where the weirdness of people kind of abstract, tell you how great you look and you lost weight. I think sometimes those can be the hardest things to like, separate yourself from. Maybe the almost inner child response of how one you went from awkward to having these tools at your disposal to fix everything you didn't like about yourself at an age where you, you didn't have the wisdom or experience to accept yourself. And that in its own way felt weirdly empowering at the time.
- [41:26]
B
It makes so much sense. Like we are social animals. It's so normal to want other people to love and accept you and like, oh my God, talk about a fundamental human need. And I had a similar experience, like going from the brace faced unibrow, having mousy brown, kind of like scrawny middle school girl to like being in high school. I've got boobs now. That was a huge development. Both literally and metaphorically getting highlights. Braces come off, unibrows gone. Like, having that glow up and then recognizing, oh, people treat me so much better. Like you said, you go from being invisible to getting a lot of positive attention. And I remember internalizing that a lot, too, and kind of being like, oh, my God, I never want this to end. I didn't know life could feel this way. I didn't. I mean, that's pretty privilege, right? Pretty privilege feels really fucking good. And so it can feel, like I said, kind of vulnerable to voluntarily dial back on that. It's like there's a little bit of game theory at play where it's like, if everybody's dialing back, then that's better for everybody, but if you're the only one who's abstaining, then it's just worse for you. And so, yeah, I mean, there's certainly no easy answers. But I empathize deeply with that feeling because I totally remember. And it sticks with you. It really sticks with you when you sense that there are certain things that you can do to manipulate the way that you look or you feel like, okay, this is. Isn't there some, like, novel? It's like the summer I got hot or something.
- [43:01]
A
Summer I turned pretty.
- [43:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Summer I got hot. That would have been a better name.
- [43:05]
A
Summer I became a smoke show.
- [43:07]
B
Yeah, Summer I became a smoke where I, like, I remember having kind of like a. I mean, this was like a deeply personal chapter for me because I was a sorority girl at Alabama as well, where, like, talk about all this on steroids.
- [43:19]
A
I, like, forget that sometimes. And I just am like, oh, this is your arc. Your arc from being a subscriber of American Cheerleader magazine to hosting diabolical lies. I mean, truly, nothing like it.
- [43:31]
B
Growth is possible. Everyone I know. I'm like, I always joke in college I was going through Obama rush in a Reagan Bush T shirt. So anything is possible, guys.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah.
- [43:40]
B
But I remember having an almost obsessive and addictive relationship to beauty because I saw what it could unlock for you. And, like, it wasn't until I feel like I started gaining financial power and, like, seeing myself in another way. Like, I really think that my self concept shifted from, like, valuing being hot and valuing being well liked to valuing intellectual curiosity and integrity. And I think when I made that shift and, like, saw that I could be rewarded for that too and accepted for that too, and actually build stronger connections on the basis of my mind and my ideas. That was when I was like, oh, all that was noise. All of that was really holding me back from becoming the person that I really wanted to be. And so I don't judge my younger self at all. I think she was doing the best that she could and like responding to the environments that she was in because like holy toxic as fuck Bama Rush. But if other women are like experiencing that and feeling that, I want them to know that there are other options available to them them. We'll get right back to it after a quick break. This message is brought to you by Apple Card It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning up to 3% unlimited daily cash back on every purchase and no fees period through this special referral referral offer. When you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at Apple Co getdailycash Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.99% to 28.24% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2025. Offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply. I've been looking for a bra that provides support but without underwire and I want it to be as comfortable as it is flattering. So I'm very excited to have finally found that very bra. The Triangle Bra from the Fits Everybody collection by Skims. Yes, finally tried the Skims bras and I love them. I love them for everyday wear because they feel more like athleisure than the, you know, the capital B bra that I am accustomed to wearing when I wear my work clothes. Shop Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.
- [46:27]
A
You just said the most beautiful series of sentences about self development I've ever heard. And the worst part is I just am dying to ask you if you were old row or new row.
- [46:37]
B
I was old row.
- [46:40]
A
Not that it matters.
- [46:41]
B
Not that it matters because everyone is. Everyone is old row in God's eyes. But yeah, I was old Ro.
- [46:49]
A
Everyone is old rose fro in God's eyes, right?
- [46:52]
B
Yeah. Oh my God. I wanted to be older so bad because I was from the north and like as a northern girl you want all that clout. You want to be in the top dog. I actually talked with Tressy that I was in that system but not of it. So even though I Was able to manipulate my way via good grades and looking the part and speaking the part and tapping into that theater kid energy and, like, really letting the charisma shine through during Rush. Gosh, I was able to get into an old row house, but once I was on the inside, it was very obvious from, like, day one that, oh, there's actually a hierarchy even within this house, and there's an in group within this house and I am not in it. And, like, that was a hard realization to have. And I think that it just goes to show that, like, those power dynamics run deep and it's a losing game. Even when you're in, like, one of the best sororities in, like, the school that's most known for Rush, there's still further hierarchy and, like, jockeying and, like, weird fucking power dynamics. The sad thing is you just spend so much of your time preoccupied with that shit that, like, I'm still friendly with people that I was in a sorority with, but, like, my closest friends from college now were actually not in my sorority.
- [48:10]
A
One thing I wanted to get to also in your second chapter, because there's a lot of ex girl bosses here. I made my book club sit down. It was like a fictional book club. I made them sit down and read, lean in, and do a whole discussion in, like, 2012 or whatever. Because to your point about finding value in stimulating intellectual pursuits, I think that since I couldn't be super validated by grades, couldn't be super validated, like, socially by men, or didn't always feel good in the looks department, when I started working, people were, like, obsessed with me. It was the first time I actually felt like I had something to contribute as a person. When I say obsessed, I mean, I could do really good PowerPoints. And they acted like it was revelatory. And it was, like, such an important period of confidence building for me just to have it be expressed to me that I have value outside of those vanity metrics. I think I got really into Lean in girl bossery because I was genuinely, like, empowered by and interested in the corporate pursuit that I now realize is individualistic in that context. But I will never forget reading the negotiation part of that and, like, really taking it to heart and just being like, oh, shit, like, I'm just a bad negotiator. And that's why I'm in that position. Didn't take into account any systemic factors whatsoever. And beyond that suggested that the best way to combat the system was to hold the same posture as a man and act like them in the workplace, which you point out in the book, actually works against women. And this chapter is just so interesting on so many levels. But what were you trying to get across with it?
- [49:42]
B
You know what's funny, too, about the Lean in thing is that I was watching the celebrity memoir Book Club Girls talk to Chelsea Fagan about Lean in recently on a financial diet video, and they had pointed out that. And I don't. I didn't remember this at the time. And I think Lean in has become kind of like a meme from the girl boss era now. But it is interesting because she does acknowledge some systemic factors in the beginning of the book. Like, not throughout the advice, but. But she kind of calls out shortcomings at the beginning and then is like, okay, so yeah, these are a thing. And, like, we do need to focus on these. However, I am going to focus on all of these individual solutions. So fine. What's been so crazy? Did you read Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams, the Facebook whistleblower?
- [50:27]
A
I have it in my stack for the summer. I hear it's awesome.
- [50:31]
B
Dude, Sheryl Sandberg is a freaking nut job. Assuming that all. All that is alleged in this book about her leadership sty and the way that she treated the women that she worked with is true, I will say this. Generally speaking, I am very much be hard on systems, not people. That is a principle of mine that I try to come back to is that, like, again, do we have free will? Anyone? Anyone? But no, really, like, be hard on systems, not people. But I say that about Sandberg and the information in that memoir because I think that it makes me feel more comfortable critiquing Lean in for what it was, which I think is like a very narrow, narrowly applicable set of advice that. I mean, one thing that I noticed about it, in retrospect, flipping through it again, is like, she doesn't, like, mention unions in the book. She doesn't mention, like, labor power, like collective bargaining, or any of these dynamics where, I mean, we know that women in unions have a gender wage gap that's like 10 percentage points smaller. So you actually do have some individual control over, like, whether or not you unionize. Your workplace completely gets glossed over. So my goal with that chapter and I guess with Rich Girl Nation more broadly, is like, I do want to talk about the systemic factors, because the systemic factors matter so much. And the systemic elements of the gender wealth gap, which I think is really what I'm concerned with in the book is just where we see that differential coming up. And, like, what are the drivers of it. And so in chapter two, in particular, I wanted to talk about the wage gap and the myths about the wage gap, why it happens, how tied the gender wage gap is to the gender care gap, and how women's roles as caretakers and kind of their cultural, in the cultural imagination, how much that impacts women's ability to succeed at work and stay in the workforce. And it kind of culminates in. Let's just make sure that our causality here is correct and that it's not not backwards, which is women don't earn less because they're bad negotiators. But negotiating in a way that navigates gender bias can help offset some of the challenges and obstacles that you're likely to face as a woman in the workplace. One of the most interesting findings was the fact that when women negotiate, quote, unquote, assertively or aggressively, this is probably going to be a surprise to nobody. They're more likely to be punished because we punish women who behave like men. Women who subvert gender norms and femininity norms are more likely to be punished for it. One of the interesting takeaways that I talk about is the way that socialization impacts how women negotiate. And women are socialized to make people feel comfortable. So when they're in a tense conversation and they're deal making, right, they're essentially asking somebody for more money, more power, more prestige, whatever, these masculine coded goods, in order to make that situation more comfortable, and again, to make that other person feel more comfortable, we are more likely to negotiate against ourselves. So we'll make our case, but then we'll be like, oh, but I totally understand if that's not doable right now and you kind of downplay and you negotiate against yourself, you do their job for them. And so one of the simplest tips that I encountered in the research that I reviewed and the experts that I spoke with was simply just to stop talking, know what your case is, make the case, structure it in this particular way. You know that that is asking relationally and thinking bigger about all the things that you can get. I lay it out in the chapter, but then stop talking and allow the uncomfortable silence, allow that other person to respond and just kind of have that key phrase in your mind of you say your piece and then you go, what do you think? Boop. Silence. And that that alone can really help. It can help you get more in those situations.
- [54:27]
A
I thought that was such good advice. And to the point where the thought of me stating my case, saying what do you think? And pausing and Sitting in the tense silence, the thought of that makes me wince with nervousness. And because I know that that's almost what I mean is, like, that's how good of advice it was. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I would. Would go far to fill that space and fill that discomfort with something that would probably make me kind of backtrack or negotiate against myself. And I thought that was, like, such good, tangible advice. And.
- [55:01]
B
Oh, thank you.
- [55:02]
A
You also talked about something that I strongly believe in, which is, it's not about how much work you do. It's about how much work people perceive that you do and the importance of self advocacy. Can you touch on that a little bit?
- [55:12]
B
So annoying, right?
- [55:14]
A
So annoying.
- [55:16]
B
The analogy that I make in the book is that workplaces, like humans, are imperfect. They are a little bit like glorified high school lunchrooms. And so, unfortunately, perception is reality. And as much as this sucks, because I really hated this element of working in an environment with other people, which is wonderful in many ways, but one of the things I did not like about it was the politicking and the peacocking and having to represent yourself in that way, because I felt like, well, hey, if I'm doing a really good job, like, shouldn't that be enough? Why do I have to perform doing a good job? But in many ways, that performance is more important than the work itself. And I think that the earlier that we accept that and find a way to accommodate that reality with integrity, the better. And so I kind of talk about it with respect to this idea of socializing your wins, which I think is a really cringey phrase. But it's unfortunately, like, the best way to describe what you're doing doing. Very popular negotiation advice that I see all the time is, okay, catalog your wins at work. Keep track of all the things that you're doing and all the ways that you're succeeding. And then when you go in to negotiate for more pay, you go into a performance review, you're gonna, like, unfurl the scroll in front of the person and be like, see all the stuff I did? Let's talk about all the great stuff I did. But what's better and more important is that as those good things are happening, other people know a couple about them. It's not just important that, like, your direct manager knows, but that you are building an engaged network of advocates around you, other people on other teams who you want to build that broad perception. And so my thing is, like, I want to work smarter, not harder. I'm not saying you need to be on slack every Saturday morning. I'm not saying that like you need to be working 70 hours a week, but there are little tweaks that you can make in the way that you engage in the workplace with other people that will leave that disproportionately robust impression of your work ethic. And a lot of them are simple. I just call it going the extra yard. So if you have to turn something around by Friday, do it by Thursday. If you're asked to come up with three factors that are impacting conversion, throw in a fourth. It's like little stuff like that. And the socializing your wins component is really about finding the way to communicate those wins broadly. I write about this one gal that I used to work with who was amazing at this. She has since left corporate America and become a lawyer, which I just think is so funny. But, but what she would do is she was always the one who was kind of communicating for her team. So we would get emails from her periodically that would be like, hey, we just wanted to share out these findings from such and such that we did in case it's helpful or like, hey, I took on this other project and you know, I wanted to let everybody know that these were the results and let me know if you'd like to hear more. Happy to share. She felt like she was everywhere. She was kind of constantly on your mind. And I, I don't think that that was because she was actually working harder than everybody else, but she was really, really good at making her presence and making the work that she was doing well known throughout the department. And I think she actually did put quite a bit of time into thinking about how she was being perceived and like working on those, both presentation interpersonally, but also like putting herself in that position to be the one that was presenting findings to leadership and stuff. Stuff. It sounds so dumb, but that's how workplaces work and that's how people get into higher visibility positions and get the opportunities that enable you to earn more and be top of mind for people that have decision making power.
- [58:50]
A
Right. And I think it's almost like it was the lean in era and then the pendulum swung so far in terms of like, okay, the empowering message got us a seat at the table. But then I think a lot of us millennials became kind of of disillusioned by the ways neoliberalism beyond failed US and the 2016 election, the drastic response to that and the anger that caused me to nitpick at people posturing as feminists and Writing books like Lean in or Sophia Amoruso or whatever, like, just the intensity of me nitpicking about how their feminism wasn't perfect was in some ways valid, in some ways a coping mechanism. And now I've kind of almost landed somewhere not entirely in the middle, but like, it's a combination of. Of focusing on broader systemic factors that benefit the collective, but also, like, playing the game. There's kind of no way around playing the game to a degree, because a broader theme of this book, I feel like, is each chapter is kind of getting at a way to improve financial outcomes for women without doing more work than you already are. Right?
- [59:51]
B
Yes. Right. My thing is I want you to earn more and get more out of the things that you were already doing. And I think there are a lot of arenas in finance where there are very, very small tweaks that actually do have outsized impacts. Another example of this is what I talk about in chapter six, which is tax advantaged investing, and how simply saving and investing in this bucket versus that one, because of the way that compounding returns work and how taxes work, you will literally retire 15% faster. So those are the shortcuts that I'm talking about. Because ultimately, when I look at my own journey and what enabled me to start thinking bigger and to start becoming politically engaged and outspoken and to start trying to understand, okay, how could we actually build a better economy? How could we build better businesses, better families? What does that look like? It was only because I had financial stability. It was only because I finally had money, so, like, I could make decisions without money being the number one factor. And so I hope that people, when they read Rich Girl Nation and the things that they take away from it, is doing good work, being paid well for it, investing for my future. You're not a sellout. You're just doing the things that you need to do to give yourself as much capacity as possible so you actually can have a positive impact on your sphere of influence, whatever that may be, big or small. But I really believe that, like, when I think about. About the future and what is going to save us, I mean, it is the collective. It is all of us coming together. And I think that there are so many people right now for whom they feel like, so spread thin and like, they're so concerned about just the end of the month that they can't think about next year. They can't think about 10 years from now. They don't have that luxury, they don't have that privilege. And so it's not that Investing advice and negotiation advice. Advice is going to solve that problem for everybody. It won't. And I want to be very honest about the limited utility of this advice that in many ways it is still for people who have decent incomes and are not exploited, low wage workers. Those things do require systemic solutions. There's no way around it. But I do think that we can continue to build power together by essentially like enhancing our own financial stability. And then again, I see it as a responsibility that we have to bring other people along with us. Like it's not enough to get it for yourself and then be like, cool, I'm good, right? You, you do need to share this with other people. You do need to help other people, whether that's with the knowledge or with your own money or however it looks like for you. But I, I do believe that we have a responsibility to other humans.
- [62:39]
A
And so much of it was very enlightening, I think. And I hope younger women read this too, because even just you spelling out that like just factually, women outlive men, but often with a third of the assets or the likelihood of finding oneself in poverty after divorce relative to male counterparts. In protecting yourself, you have a chapter on prenups. You have a chapter on all moms or working moms. I mean, you really cover so many unique aspects of women's experiences with money and to money that are so important to factor in that it's not just about like women be shopping, I want to buy more shit. It's like securing yourself to a place where you have freedom, where you have options, where you're not stuck and where you're safe.
- [63:18]
B
Yeah, so I've obviously I've read a lot of personal finance books. I've been in the space for like half a decade now. So I am extremely familiar with what was out there and kind of how we talk about these things. And obviously I've spent a lot of time in, in the data and trying to understand how women end up in these not so great positions and financial situations. And something that really jumped out at me was just how striking it was that so, so few finance books talked about marriage or caregiving because it truly is the most impactful, like by a long shot. And it's not close the most impactful thing on like a woman's ability to earn, save and invest. So the fact that there was rarely if ever conversations about how marriage is going to change your finances or what should be in a prenuptial agreement, or if you're going to work inside your home instead of outside it. What kind of legal protections do you need to have? I mean, it just kind of struck me as like, very common sense, given what we know about women's outcomes. Women are 65% more likely to leave paid work to care for a family member. There are no Social Security credits for caregivers. So if you aren't working for a paycheck and you're working inside your home for decades, not only are you not getting an opportunity to save for your own retirement, but you don't get your own Social Security either. Like, you'll probably get some of your partners, but even that, there's like, weirdness around how that is meted out later. So I really wanted to get into the caregiving gap and the domestic labor gap and just how money functions in marriage, how to manage money together. Because those things felt like to me, just as if not more important than like, like, here's how you buy an index fund.
- [65:03]
A
And so much marital money. Advice is about so much focus on what's shared, which is fair. But I think there's an element of self protection that's not discussed enough. And it's just more like people being reprimanded for, not like sharing joint accounts for everything or whatever. I just thought you had a really refreshing and interesting take. Wait, I forget. Do you have a prenup?
- [65:23]
B
I don't know. That was kind of the joke. It's like, I have this very extensive section about prenups where I'm like, you need this. Everyone's marriage is a contract. Do you want the opportunity to influence it or not? Yada, yada, yada. And then I had this big reveal of, you're probably thinking like, man, I've never encountered a woman so excited about contract law. I bet her prenup is amazing. And then I'm like, but I don't have one. And the reason I don't have one is because even though my husband, who is an attorney, and I had had discussions while we were dating and engaged of like, yeah, prenups make sense. We're definitely gonna do it. It. We just, like, never got around to it. We got married when we were 26, and I didn't fully grasp at the time how important it was beyond just like a superficial understanding. And so I want other women to have a deeper understanding of. This is exactly what it can do for you. It can outline terms about spousal support if you become a stay at home parent. Because that's going to be tough to get if you go in front of a Judge in a state that's not super friendly to stay at home parents, you can make it whatever you want it to be. But I didn't realize this when I got married, and I don't think many people do, because there's no natural stopping point when you are getting married where anyone like sits you down and explains to you how this is going to change your legal and financial rights. Which is crazy. If you think about the fact that you're literally signing a lifelong, legally enforceable contract. Contract, there's nothing to read. That's nuts. So I don't think many people realize it.
- [66:56]
A
But you're so right. You at the ceremony, you, like, sign something you literally, like, haven't read.
- [67:01]
B
A lifelong, legally binding contract with nothing to read.
- [67:04]
A
It's not like, I'm sure this is pretty standard.
- [67:06]
B
It's insane. People don't know that from the date of marriage, anything that either of you earn, borrow or buy is looked at by the state as belonging to both of you. So my only kind of point to people is if you want to keep your finances separate, that is okay. But just remember that that separation, absent a prenup, is probably a little bit of an illusion because if you split up and you're in a community property state, or I mean, honestly, equitable distribution state, you're going to see this. But less, in a less extreme sense, the court is going to look at all that shit as both of yours. So if you're saving and investing diligently and like you're on top of it and you have no idea what the fuck your spouse is doing and they're just going along to get along, forwarding all their paychecks to DraftKings like they're probably going to be legally entitled to half your 401k. It pays to get on the same page that even if you are managing money separately, like, you are protected. And I just don't think that there's a better or more romantic time to have that conversation than at the outset of a relationship and the outset of a marriage when, like, you both can do something very selfless for one another and say, I want you to have this in life, even if it's not with me someday. That is so beautiful. So much more beautiful than okay, well, you sign on the dotted line, so fuck it, we ball. Hope for the best. Swallow the key.
- [68:31]
A
That is such a good point and in such a way to get around what I think is the hardest part about this conversation, which is that it's deemed unromantic to Talk about splitting up when your life is just starting together. But what a profound respect for someone you love to say, I want you to be okay whether it's with me or not.
- [68:52]
B
Yeah. And I know you'll want me to be okay too. Yeah. I mean, you just never know. I think obviously nobody gets married with the intention to get divorced, but things happen. I've heard stories from women whose husbands had essentially like severe psychotic breakdowns. And I mean that in the like medical sense, not in the colloquial sense where mental health issues arise. I mean, people can really change, not because they even mean to, but some of this just truly is outside of your control. And I look at it as common sense. And for someone like me who like, didn't have the prenup and didn't understand enough when she got married what she was really agreeing to. You can do a postnup. And they do tend to have more issues with enforceability. It does depend on your. So both of you need to be working with your own legal representation. You need to work with real attorneys who really understand the family law in your state. But I just think it's vitally important that women kind of understand men too, understand legally what's happening to them so they can make the best choices for themselves. And I talk to people too who choose not to get married because they don't want to introduce this level of legal and state, not interference, but they don't want a contract and that's okay too. And, and maybe once you know what that contract entails, you're going to opt not to sign it and that's fine. But knowledge is power.
- [70:14]
A
There was this something you cited, maybe it was in the intro that like the statistics are worse now than in 1992 in terms of financial literacy. Why do you think that is?
- [70:22]
B
Yeah, it's from the UBS know your worth study. I think this One came from 2021 heterosexual. This is a mixed sex couple study. How many couples report the husband taking charge of all the financial decisions and the financial long term planning? And I think it's something like 56% in 2021 reported that compared to 53% in 1992. Fascinating. I don't know why that is. I couldn't even begin to tell you why or how that's getting worse. But what was really interesting to me about that study was that 30% of women reported that they were the main financial decision makers in their homes and only 11% of men reported that their wives were the main decision maker. So I was like there is this weird two way mirror thing happening where like even in situations where women were reporting that they were the primary, like fewer men were comfortable admitting that. So I'm sure there's something like weird and gender dynamic going on there there. It's probably even worse now in 2025 than it was in 2021, but it was something like one in five couples reported making these decisions equally. And that's scary because like we said, women live longer, six and a half percent longer on average. They are more likely to bear the brunt of poor long term financial planning than their spouses. Just again, if we're looking at the actuarial tables and the cold hard dabs, so you gotta be involved. I get why women aren't though. Like I want to say that because it's not about intelligence, it's not about competence, it's not about one gender being naturally more math friendly than the other. But I think that this too is connected to the caregiving gap. Because if you think about the fact that women do an hour more of unpaid labor in their homes every day and you have a partner who likes, maybe does actually at this point in time know more about it than you do, who's saying, hey, that thing that you don't know anything about yet that you're not really into or interested in, I can take that off your hands and manage it end to end and you don't have to think about it, most women are going to be like, fucking great. Thanks. Can we apply that attitude to more things? Actually, it makes perfect sense to me that you would take somebody up on that offer. And that offer is probably being made in good faith. I don't think that like men are malevolent creatures out here trying to dupe you out of your wealth, but it's just the reality that like when marriages end and men are the ones that have been in charge of the finances the whole time, you're going to find yourself in a not so good situation. And we know that that's true. I think it's something like 75% of women who either get divorced or are widowed report finding a negative financial surprise. And so like, I don't know, I can personally think of no worse time, time to find out that my finances are not what I thought they were than when I am going through and grieving a traumatic life event.
- [73:21]
A
Right. And to your point, people need to go easy on themselves because if you've never. Financial literacy isn't, it's not something that should come naturally to you. It's something you have to put a concerted amount of effort into learning and self teaching if you didn't have a formal education surrounding it. And I think per me talking about my money, noise and issues last time you were on the pod, I think a lot of like, like my avoidance is grounded in. I like to feel competent and I know so much about so many things, but it's just an area that I've never had a formal education in or spent a lot of time with. And who I honest to God think about all the time is Teresa Jijucci. Not that I'm a, you know, diehard fan of hers.
- [73:59]
B
Say more, Kate.
- [74:00]
A
I think that like, there's a lot of situations where you don't even know what you're signing or signing up for and you're defaulting to somebody who claims to know more than you. You.
- [74:08]
B
Yeah, it's a good point. I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but there is a book called Pound Foolish by a woman named Helene Olin and she does sort of myth bust this idea that it's tricky because it is true that men, these sorts of decisions are abdicated to men. More often it's more common for a woman to abdicate to a man than vice versa within like household finances. We know that that's true. But when you actually compare rates of financial literacy, the actual knowledge, there's not a very big gender gap, actually. I mean, there's slightly a gender gap, but it's pretty small, like a couple percentage points at most. And so her point in this book was basically like it's actually a myth that men know more about money than women do. Which I think is really interesting because again, we like kind of culturally assume that this is the man's. At least that's the message that I received as a. Not from my parents really, but just like the provider narrative. Yeah. That money is a man's thing. And you see these dynamics even in relationships where the women are the financial breadwinners. This is true even for high earning millennial women who are the primary or sole earners in their homes. So it's interesting for sure.
- [75:24]
A
I mean, truly guys, this book is, it is fascinating. It's funny beyond like we talked about with prenup or saving for childcare. Like she is retiring independently in a tax optimized way. She's talking through tax loopholes in one breath and making a pop culture reference in another. And it is not an easy feat to get me to read cover to cover a book about a topic that I claim to have so little interest in. And you belong in this position to make this topic approachable and empowering for women. And I just want the Dave Ramseys of the world to get off my nuts about my cups of coffee and to be have like practical helpful advice. And this book is full of it. And the thing I like to ask authors, as a person who promoted a book, is there any part of it or a tidbit or something that like you don't get asked about enough that you wish you got asked about or something that you love talking about in this book?
- [76:12]
B
Ooh.
- [76:13]
A
Because interviewers kind of always ask you about the same stuff or hot topics, Right? And that's a good question.
- [76:18]
B
Something that I wish we would have talked about that. Honestly, there's nothing that's coming to mind immediately. But I do think that I have been spending a lot of time thinking about, about what's next and what I want to write next. And I feel good now that I have this kind of like how to book out in the world where I'm kind of explaining like if you want to know how to manage your money and not just manage it in like from the basics, but you want to go advanced, you want to know the 505 of money, like this is what you should read and you're going to learn it all and you're going to have everything you need. I'm happy that I've done that now because now I feel like I can kind of move on from being the how to Girl and like I have this artifact now that someone can buy.
- [76:58]
A
It, like Andy Anderson, how to Girl.
- [77:01]
B
Now I have this artifact that like everybody can buy and read and benefit from. But I really want to write a book of essays next because I really enjoy writing essays. I really enjoy the type of writing that isn't necessarily offering solutions or answers, but is just trying to get you to kind of think about the world differently and, and imparting insights maybe that are gonna stick with you. And so I really enjoy writing about culture and capitalism and like the interplay between these two things. I guess you could say I'm the dreaded cultural Marxist that all the right wing Twitter anons love to hate. But I just think that there are such interesting dynamics between culture, the economy and politics. And I am excited now that I think I can kind of move more fully into to that space.
- [77:49]
A
Absolutely. It's kind of like this is what got you in to the public square and more how to prescriptive information. You can. It's like kind of your financial advice magnum opus you've put out there. And now what that information self teaching over the years and expertise has allowed you to do is make really astute connections when you're doing cultural analysis that I think different people can bring different things to the table by the field that they understand. And I think having that financial overlay, financial and political overlay especially, that you and Caro are able to bring to the table and talking about feminism and talking about cultural phenomenons, it's invaluable and it forces me to grow and learn. And I just think you're brilliant.
- [78:31]
B
Oh, thanks, Kate.
- [78:31]
A
And I will devour your next book of essays and hopefully you'll come back to be there in five.
- [78:44]
B
That is all for this week. We will see you next week for a rich girl roundup. Our show is a production of Morning Brew and is produced by Ana Velez and me, Katie Gattytassan with audio engineering and sound design from Nick Torres. Devin Emery is president of Morning Brew. Content and additional fact checking comes from Scott Wilson and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They say see us only pay for what you need at libertymutual. Com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.