Optimizing Early Retirement for Couples on Different Timelines

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Money with Katie Show Episode Title: Optimizing Early Retirement for Couples on Different Timelines
Release Date: October 21, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Money with Katie Show, hosts Katie and Hannah delve into the complexities of early retirement within a couple where partners have different retirement timelines. Drawing from a listener's question, they explore strategic financial planning, tax implications, and the interpersonal dynamics that can arise when one partner retires earlier than the other.

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Listener’s Question: Early Retirement with Divergent Timelines [03:40]

The episode centers around a question from a listener named Liz:

Liz: "I'm looking to retire early while my husband, who is four years younger than me, intends to work a few years longer. In the analysis I've done, it seems I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the many early retirement tax advantages such as Roth IRA conversions if I stop working and we are still married, even if we're filing separately. I've been working longer and saving diligently for years. I would really like to take advantage of this, you know, spend more time at home with my kids before they go off to school. And my husband is younger and wasn't able to save as much early in his career and he loves his job and would love to work a few years beyond me. Are you aware of any strategies for this? And would it make sense to get a divorce for tax purposes?"

The hosts acknowledge the multifaceted nature of Liz's inquiry, which touches upon retirement timing, tax strategies, and the sensitive topic of marital dissolution for financial gain.

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Discussion on Tax Strategies and Filing Statuses [04:38 - 10:03]

Marriage and Finances Separation [05:02]

Katie and Hannah discuss the viability of maintaining completely separate finances within a marriage to optimize tax benefits for early retirement. They contemplate whether disjointed financial management can allow Liz to capitalize on strategies like Roth IRA conversions without undue tax burdens.

Katie: "I would never recommend getting a divorce for tax purposes because that is just so bleak."

They highlight the potential challenges of managing finances separately, especially regarding lifestyle changes and the emotional toll it may take on the relationship.

Filing Separately vs. Jointly [05:42 - 10:03]

Katie conducts a rudimentary analysis using the TaxAct calculator to simulate Liz’s scenario, assessing whether filing separately could enable her to utilize Roth IRA conversion strategies effectively. She presents findings suggesting that, under certain conditions, filing separately might offer tax advantages. However, Hannah raises critical caveats:

Hannah: "In community property states, you have to report half of the income that both spouses earned on your return."

They caution that state-specific laws, particularly in community property states (e.g., California, Texas), can complicate the benefits of filing separately.

Hannah: "If you're married filing separately, there's deductions and credits that you can't take advantage of. So that's another piece of the puzzle that you have to consider."

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Key Tax Considerations and Watchouts [10:03 - 19:35]

Social Security and Tax Liabilities [13:08 - 18:21]

The hosts discuss how early retirement impacts Social Security benefits and the taxation thereof. They note that even if Liz retires early, her Social Security benefits may still be subject to taxation, especially if her husband continues to work.

Katie: "Filing separately is not like a workaround that will allow you to not tax your Social Security benefits."

They also mention that filing separately can alter her husband's tax burden, potentially leading to higher overall taxes for the household.

Deductions and Credits Limitations [17:39 - 18:21]

Hannah elaborates on the limitations imposed when choosing to file separately, such as the inability to claim certain credits and deductions:

Hannah: "There's the child independent care expenses credit, the earned income credit, adoption credit, education credits, and your student loan interest deduction. And you can't claim any of those or receive the credit for any of those if you do decide to file separately."

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Practical Advice and Recommendations [18:21 - 19:38]

Katie and Hannah advise Liz to consult with a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) or a Certified Financial Planner (CFP) to navigate her unique situation effectively.

Katie: "The easiest or, like, most straightforward approach would just be to work with a CPA and explain your strategy to them and basically be told, like, is this gonna work or not?"

They also suggest using tax calculators to model different scenarios but emphasize the importance of professional guidance, especially concerning state-specific regulations.

Katie: "But I still think that the community property consideration might require more professional help to work through. But theoretically, I am tentatively optimistic that there is a path forward here."

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Interpersonal Dynamics and Relationship Considerations [06:09 - 09:37]

Beyond the financial mechanics, Katie and Hannah explore the potential emotional and relational challenges that may arise when one partner retires before the other.

Hannah: "Do you think that they're going to be resentful in any way when they're coming back from work and you're just chilling on the couch and you've been there all day?"

They stress the importance of open communication and mutual understanding to prevent feelings of resentment or imbalance in the relationship dynamic.

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Money Stories Segment: Navigating Healthcare Billing [20:11 - 24:14]

In the latter part of the episode, Hannah shares a listener story emphasizing the complexities and frustrations of healthcare billing, resonating with her own experiences.

Hannah: "I'm a young woman doctor and even I have issues with figuring out bills. But I think more conversations should be had on how to pick a plan from the beginning in an attempt to mitigate risk, how to read an EOB, and how to push back on costs that don't seem right."

She recounts her ordeal with unexpected medical bills, highlighting the importance of persistence in disputing inaccurate charges. Both hosts empathize with the struggle and recognize the broader systemic issues within healthcare billing practices.

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Conclusion and Upcoming Content [19:40 - 24:14]

Katie and Hannah wrap up the episode by teasing an upcoming interview with Grace Blakely, author of Vulture Capitalism, indicating future discussions on capitalism, private wealth, and market misconceptions.

Katie: "On Wednesday, the rest of you to talk about vulture capitalism and what we fundamentally misunderstand about it."

They also touch upon personal anecdotes related to healthcare billing, further emphasizing the episode's blend of financial advice and real-life experiences.

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Notable Quotes

• Katie (05:02): "I would never recommend getting a divorce for tax purposes because that is just so bleak."

• Hannah (05:42): "If you're married filing separately, there's deductions and credits that you can't take advantage of."

• Katie (13:08): "I think that filing separately is the answer here. Potentially, if you want to create that net zero tax bill for yourself and enact all those fun phi loopholes."

• Hannah (17:39): "So one is around hitting five different timelines, which is a super common question that we get."

• Katie (18:21): "The easiest or, like, most straightforward approach would just be to work with a CPA and explain your strategy to them."

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of early retirement strategies for couples with differing retirement goals. By addressing both the financial and personal dimensions, Katie and Hannah offer a comprehensive guide for listeners navigating similar situations. They emphasize the importance of professional financial advice, thorough tax planning, and open communication within relationships to achieve harmonious and financially sound retirement outcomes.

Transcript

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[Katie]

Rich Girl Roundup load bearing disclaimer CPAs in the audience Fact check away Just.

[Hannah]

Imagining all the emails flooding in from CPAs that are like actually yeah, this is so wrong. They will light up our inbox.

[Katie]

I'm sure if we're totally off base they will come barreling through the door to let us know. You better watch over I'm really going to get mad.

[Hannah]

We'll issue an update if we are wrong.

[Katie]

We will totally issue a retraction if I'm off base. Welcome back rich people to the Rich Girl Roundup weekly discussion of the Money with Katie Show. I'm your host Katie and every Monday Hannah and I dig into an interesting money question topic discussion that we get from you, our listeners. So before we do that, here is a quick message from our sponsors. If you've got Those sweet, sweet RSUs or equity from your benevolent corporate daddy or you are just an extremely high earner, you might be dealing with what Jay and Maya faced before they started working with Domain Money. Their combined income was over $500,000 and despite their withholding, they still owed tens of thousands of dollars on their taxes. With the help of Katie Song of Domain Money, they came up with a three part solution. They found the real culprit which was their RSUs. They started a donor advised fund and they switched to pre tax contributions. All best practices for their specific scenario. So if you've got a complicated comp structure and you're not sure what to do, working with Domain Money's certified professionals will get you right and tight come tax season. Get started by booking a free strategy session with Domain Money and your flat fee advisor will create a step by step financial plan to help you achieve your goals. For clear advice, no hidden fees and a trusted resource for all of your tax related questions, Check out Domain Money and start building your financial plan [e-mail] domain money that's moneywithkatie.com domainmoney I'm a real client of Domain Money via my employer Morning Brew. I receive compensation and have an incentive to promote Domain Money. See important [e-mail] x before we get into it, this week's upcoming main episode is an interview with Grace Blakely, the author of Vulture Capitalism. We are going to talk about, oh my gosh, so many things, what we get wrong about capitalism, private wealth ownership, what might be a better, more balanced system. And like overall, kind of the big misconception that Blakely sees with how we conceive of the free markets as being in juxtaposition with the quote unquote state or with the government. And she says that this is kind of a naive conception of capitalism, at least as it exists in America. So really excited about that one. And okay, onto the roundup. Hannah, what are we talking about today?

[Hannah]

So this week's question came from Liz and it's one we've heard a lot over the years. So their question was, I'm looking to retire early while my husband, who is four years younger than me, intends to work a few years longer. In the analysis I've done, it seems I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the many early retire retirement tax advantages such as Roth IRA conversions, if I stop working and we are still married, even if we're filing separately. I've been working longer and saving diligently for years. I would really like to take advantage of this, you know, spend more time at home with my kids before they go off to school. And my husband is younger and wasn't able to save as much early in his career and he loves his job and would love to work a few years beyond me. Are you aware of any strategies for this? And would it make sense to get a divorce for tax purposes? So I feel like there's two questions here. One is around hitting five different timelines, which is a super common question that we get. And the other is about tax strategies while you're drawing down on your funds. And so to that I will start with we are not certified financial professionals. This is not financial advice. Please do your own due diligence with a CPA or a cfp.

[Katie]

But that one, that disclaimer is going to do a lot of heavy lifting at this one. I can already tell that is a load bearing disclaimer.

[Hannah]

Should she get a divorce for tax purposes? What do we think?

[Katie]

I would say, let me, let me state this up front. I will never recommend getting a divorce for tax purposes because that is just so bleak.

[Hannah]

But I appreciate you did get married for tax purposes, so it's true.

[Katie]

I appreciate the willingness to. The number of hoops that you are willing to jump through for tax avoidance is truly an Inspiration. All right, so based on the way this question is written, I assume that this means you have completely separate finances. So, for example, you are paying for your quote unquote half of your life, he pays for his half, and you both are like saving and investing completely separately such that the challenge then becomes, okay, well, now his income is going to theoretically impact my tax rates, even though his income is not impacting my lifestyle. Hannah, is that your read?

[Hannah]

Yes. However, I actually think to your point, it is going to affect your lifestyle regardless because your finances are legally joint, as I have learned in our many rich girl roundtables on this. And I think there's also a disconnect between your single person fire, you know, milestone, and then your goals within a couple. So I think there's some other larger questions to be asking if you do plan to retire early, a couple years before your partner does.

[Katie]

Interesting. So say more about that.

[Hannah]

I think that there's the question of do you think that they're going to be resentful in any way when they're coming back from work and you're just chilling on the couch and you've been there all day?

[Katie]

Or oh, Hannah said, Hannah said, I know you're asking for financial advice, but I'm going to play Dr. Phil. Are you worried about resentment in your relationship?

[Hannah]

You got it. You got to know. Because I've actually read like case studies of people being like, I thought I was cool with it and then I realized how upset I was that I still had to keep working. And so I do think it's something to think about. And the other piece is, you know, how strongly do they feel about your, the fact that they need to continue if they like their job. And the key, it seems like this husband partner does that they want to keep working. That's great. But also I've read, you know, folks say, like, I really wanted to hit fire on my own. I don't want someone else to subsidize my life for me. But like, do they feel a certain type of way if they have to live off of your investments or their own or vice versa as you're like. Because it seems like you could kind of live off of one of your incomes in this four year period. So it's kind of like you got to think about those two, you know.

[Katie]

Okay, so I see what you're saying. I think that part of what I was going to call out is like, depending on the extent of the separation of finances or how independently you're both earning, saving and investing, I Do want to talk a little bit more about the tax statuses of it all? Because that is technically like specifically what the person had brought up is like, well, I can't, you know, use this tax status. But one thing that I do want to call out explicitly and double down a little bit on. Hannah, what you just mentioned is if you don't have completely separate finances, or you are, maybe you do, but you're willing to combine them in order pull this off and he is still working, is his income high enough that you could both live off of it while he works and you are quote unquote, fi such that your investments continue to just compound unused in the background, such that later when he wants to retire too, he can also live off your investment income too. So for people who have combined finances who do not want to retire on identical timelines, my guess or my assumption is that this is typically how people will approach it. That if one person keeps working, they just are using that income for their lifestyle and maybe bridging a gap with some investments. But then like when they both transition fully to being retired, then they are fully living off the investments. So I think that that would be like, is there openness to that type of arrangement? Because that may work and I think if there isn't and we are trying to keep everything completely separate, earnings, savings and investment wise, then I think we have the conversation about tax loopholes or tax status changes. What say you, Hannah?

[Hannah]

That's what I'm saying is I think then people have to reckon with the fact that some people might say, no, I want us to be separately saving and I'm not using all of my income to support your life or vice versa. Like once I retire, I don't want you to touch the money that I've been saving for 40 years because we've only been together for five or whatever it is. I think that people have very specific preferences for their money. And so I do think when you guys are on, you know, a little bit of a disjointed timeline or uneven timeline, it's something that you want to take into consideration and have that conversation about. And there are some stories I read. I went through a lot of rabbit holes today where people were like, I was able to quote unquote, retire my wife so she could be a stay at home parent. Now of course that's not phi.

[Katie]

That is so MLM coded.

[Hannah]

I know, but it's like it's not fi. Like there's still, it's still a full time job, but it is Something that they were able to make work for their home and then they joined them in like a full retirement a couple years later. So it's just these are like other considerations you got to think about. But if you are asking about tax statuses, this is where I defer to you because your girl don't know anything about married filing separately. But I have some things that you need to think about if that is something you want to explore.

[Katie]

And this girl barely knows anything about married filings separately. So like I said, load bearing disclaimer. CPAs in the audience fact check away. We will totally issue a retraction if I'm off base here. But I did independently try to like piece this together for you to figure it out. And so in the question Liz says it seems I wouldn't be able to take advantage of many of the early retirement tax advantages such as Roth IRA conversion ladders if I stop working and we're still married even filing separately. So when I first read that, I was like, is that true? There is one reason why Liz might be saying this that I'm going to get to in a little bit that she might have already looked into this. But because she asked and because this question is somewhat common, I wanted to talk about it. Why that part jumped out at me. It is my understanding that if you are filing separately, your spouse's income from work and your income from your investments, your retirement distributions are treated and taxed separately. Though for a third time I will say CPAs in the audience fact check me. I'm going to get through a couple of like the differences or watch outs. But, but in general, I think that it does treat those things separately and that is like the reason that people would file separately. So to double check my assumption, I went to the tax act calculator. We can link it in the show notes if you want to play around with it. And I selected married for my marital status. And no, when it asked if I wanted to file jointly, so it was generating an estimate for a married filing separately person, it only asked me for my incomes, not my spouse's. Again, I'm going to talk about a reason why that watch out. Might matter, but. And then I entered 13,008 50 for my taxable IRA withdrawals to simulate a Roth conversion that is like standard deduction sized as we have talked about many times in our early retirement strategy in the Roth conversion ladder that she's referencing in her question. And then I just put in $50,000 of long term capital gains income to simulate roughly the upper limit of the 0% capital gains tax bracket for singles and married filings separately. And the total estimated federal tax bill on $63,850 of this investment income was $806. So all that to say, I think that filing separately is the answer here. Potentially, if you want to create that net zero tax bill for yourself and enact all those fun phi loopholes, but you would just be using the single numbers from all of the examples and from our how tos instead of the married filing jointly numbers. So Hannah, I know you had some watch outs. I have two watch outs that or maybe three that I would call out that might make this no dice.

[Hannah]

So the first thing was around Social Security. So obviously anybody who plans to retire early, it's going to impact their Social Security benefits until they become of age. But I feel like you had a call out about receiving and taking the.

[Katie]

Benefits become of age. Yes. So a couple things that we found in poking around here trying to figure out why this might not work. Obviously this is in reference to retiring early. And if you're retiring early, my assumption is that you are not withdrawing or you're not receiving Social Security benefits yet, kind of by definition. But even if you are retired and filing separately, your Social Security benefits will still be taxed. So like if one spouse is continuing to work and earn income and the other is not, it is my understanding that filing separately is not like a workaround that will allow you to not tax your Social Security benefits. Having a spouse that has income will impact the way Social Security benefits are treated. So that would be one watch out. Though it does not sound applicable to this specific situation. Another watch out is just how will filing separately change his overall tax burden? Like I assume his overall tax liability right now is probably lower because you guys are filing jointly. So I don't know. I think that that just might be something to run the numbers for ahead of time. Particularly if all of your income and all of your financial planning is done separately. Now just maybe looking at like, okay, what is his take home pay in our current situation and if we were to do this separately and he were to fight we were to file separately, how would that change his take home pay? Because that might be a consideration that you all need to kind of work out between yourselves if you guys are going to do this so that you can have a net zero tax bill on your investments, but that like he's now going to have less income because of it. So that occurred to me. But then finally the big thing that might again be the reason why Liz is like, yeah, it's not going to work. In community property states, you have to report half of the income that both spouses earned on your return. So that might throw a wrench in Liz's plans if she's having to report half of his earned income on her return anyway. As a reminder, community property states are Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin. Wisconsin. So if you live in one of those places, this would I think, kind of be a non starter as far as like a tax loophole. But as far as I can tell from reading the definitions and kind of like instructions and watch outs about married filing separately and then plugging it all into the tax act calculator, community property state aside, I think this should be an option. And again, if it's not, I think I would come back to that like broader lifestyle question of just like, even if your investments or even if your financial plans are currently separate, if this is something you both feel strongly about, like you retiring and him continuing to work, is there an option to make that switch now and kind of start thinking about things combined? That way you can live off his income for a few years and then you can both live off all of the investments together. Picture this, rich people. You've built up your small business, triple checked your budget, and it's finally time to expand your team. But there's no one in your personal network that fits, so where else can you look? Finding the right people is a lot simpler than you think with LinkedIn jobs. In fact, we often use LinkedIn to source jobs for our Rich Gigs segment in the newsletter every week, and it's a breeze. But LinkedIn isn't just a job board. LinkedIn helps you hire professionals you can't find anywhere else, even if those who aren't actively searching for a new job but might be open to the perfect role in a given month. Over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. On LinkedIn, 86% of small businesses get a qualified candidate within 24 hours. Hire professionals like a professional. Post your job for [e-mail] coordinate that's LinkedIn.com coordinate to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I also wanted to point out a couple other just watch outs that I noticed. So one is that both spouses must take deductions the same way. So if one spouse decides to itemize, instead of taking the standard Deduction, the other spouse has to do it too. And the last piece is just that. If you're married filing separately, there's deductions and credits that you can't take advantage of. So there's the child independent care expenses credit, the earned income credit, adoption credit, education credits, and your student loan interest deduction. And you can't claim any of those or receive the credit for any of those if you do decide to do that. So that's another piece of the puzzle that you have to consider. But I just want to make sure we're giving the most comprehensive picture of if this is an option for you.

[Katie]

Good call. So if someone's listening to this and they're not sure, I think you have a couple options. The easiest or, like, most straightforward approach would just be to work with a CPA and explain your strategy to them and basically be told, like, is this gonna work or not? Like, here's what I wanna do. Obviously that costs money. So that's one consideration. Something else, though, if you're just trying to do like the back of the napkin comparison, I honestly think that you could probably use like that tax act calculator, go in and pull it up on two tabs and do one scenario where you guys are married filing jointly and fill out all the information, and then pull it up in another tab and have you both fill it out as married filing separately and just kind of compare the outcomes and see what you get. It's probably the easiest way to approach it, but when it comes to the community property considerations, it does not appear as though your location is an input in this calculator. So I still think that the community property consideration might require more professional help to work through. But theoretically, I, like, am tentatively optimistic that there is a path forward here.

[Hannah]

Just imagining all the emails flooding in from CPAs that are like, actually, yeah.

[Katie]

This is so wrong.

[Hannah]

Which again, we'll issue an update if we are.

[Katie]

Yeah, I'm like, so maybe listen to this and then before you make any changes, give it a week so that next week we can tell you we were completely wrong.

[Hannah]

If it's not that urgent, maybe wait it out.

[Katie]

You'll have seven days to do your own do and then come back and we'll be like, actually, yeah, the CPAs told us we were totally off space.

[Hannah]

It's two weeks because we have a bi week in between.

[Katie]

Ah, okay. It'll. It'll take two weeks for you to get the. Fortunately, there are plenty of CPAs that listen to this and I'm sure if we're totally off base. They will come barreling through the door to let us know.

[Hannah]

Okay, so I have a money story this week from Aaliyah, and it's very relevant to a money story that I have as well. So she said, I especially found your recent attempt to negotiate a healthcare bill interesting and commiserate in your frustration. So she's referring to the guardian dental video that you made for Instagram several weeks back.

[Katie]

So if you're not guardian dental, keep on scrolling if you are you.

[Hannah]

That was probably my favorite video in a long time. She said, I'm a young woman doctor and even I have issues with figuring out bills. But I think more conversations should be had on how to pick a plan from the beginning in an attempt to mitigate risk, how to read an eob, and how to push back on costs that don't seem right. For example, did you know that a surgery can cost you a facility fee, a doctor fee, an anesthesia fee, a pathology fee, if tissue is sent, et cetera? I didn't until I had a surgery myself. And I recently had a 20 minute appointment at Emory.

[Katie]

Here we go, baby.

[Hannah]

I have not hit my deductible, but I got a bill for $700 for this 20 minute appointment. And I was like, excuse me, excuse me. And so I've been fighting with them back and forth. And so when I fought with the billing department the first time, they said, sorry, you haven't hit your deductible. This is the full cost. It is what it is. So I'm sitting there, I'm like, okay, like I'm just going to have to eat this cost or do a payment plan or whatever. Then I thought, maybe I'll try one more time. So then I tried another time and someone said, well, we could do prompt pay, so I'll give you 20% off discount. So it's more like $560. And I was like, again, I'm not paying that. Like, you know, that's unreasonable. But could you just look into this one more time? And I responded. The third person that got back to me said, oh, actually we were charging you for a facility room, not for the appointment. And so that is why you had that fee. And now we've taken it off. Your balance is zero.

[Katie]

Oh my God. So you basically just said you just kept going, this feels wrong. Can you check again? And the third time they were like, oh, yeah, sorry.

[Hannah]

Yep, yep. And that happened to me when I had the infamous lump of 20, 23. I got all of these bills and half of them were incorrectly labeled or billed or, you know, I had a pathology fee for the biopsy, but then I also had the specimen fee for removing the tissue. I had the room fee. I had all the things. And then I had to fight with them for several months to get them to reach something more reasonable. And even then, I spent a whole year paying it off. And my brother, when he gets a bill that he. It's unreasonable to him, he pays it off in $1 installments so that they can't report it, they can't send it to collection, but he's like, on principle, I'm doing this.

[Katie]

So, Dude, I. I saw something once that was like, those bills are between you and God.

[Hannah]

Yep.

[Katie]

It's none of my business.

[Hannah]

None of my business.

[Katie]

Yeah, I know. I'm slowly racking them up from UC Davis, and I'm just kind of like, waiting until we actually figure out what's going on before I start paying for things. Because I'm like, I kind of feel like in one fell swoop, I would like to be able to push back on all of it versus just like taking it as I go. I don't know. We'll see. It's in my. My strategy keeps evolving over time.

[Hannah]

I think the fact that Aaliyah is a doctor herself and also has no idea is just so telling of how forked up the system is.

[Katie]

So, yeah, it's a mess. It's interesting that you're able to do all that over, like, chat too.

[Hannah]

Me?

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Yeah. When you log into the portal, it's like message, and then you pick billing. And I just keep saying the same thing.

[Katie]

It's so much easier than calling.

[Hannah]

They don't have that for a portal for you?

[Katie]

I don't know. I haven't checked. I always just kind of default to finding the phone number and calling. But I'm going to try chatting because I think that that sounds like an easier way to be annoying and persistent.

[Hannah]

Yeah, you go to. Yours is Health, UC Davis Edu, and you just make an account and you go through there, girl. I don't call anybody. I will message them on.

[Katie]

You are such a millennial.

[Hannah]

Yeah, no, my husband is scared to pick up the phone.

[Katie]

So why is this like a phobia that we all share? Why do millennials hate talking on the phone? I am very fascinated by people who have really intense experiences with our healthcare system and, like, how they deal with it in the aftermath when they basically have like a life threatening or near death experience and then survive. And on the other side are like, okay, now I have to face off with the insurance companies. It's just really interesting. So I'm kind of in the process of setting something like that up for a full length episode to do a show about. But in the meantime, that is all for this week's rich girl roundup. CPAs, I'll see you in my inbox. And we will see on Wednesday, the rest of you to talk about vulture capitalism and what we fundamentally misunderstand about it.