The F-150 is the Best-Selling Car in America. Most of Us Can't Afford It.

Summary

Summary of "The F-150 is the Best-Selling Car in America. Most of Us Can't Afford It"

The Money with Katie Show hosted by Morning Brew delves into the intricate relationship between America’s automotive preferences and personal financial well-being in the episode titled "The F-150 is the Best-Selling Car in America. Most of Us Can't Afford It," released on December 16, 2024. Hosts Katie Yaddy Tossan and Henna explore why large vehicles like the Ford F-150 dominate the U.S. market despite their hefty price tags, and discuss the broader economic, cultural, and personal finance implications of this trend.

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1. Introduction to America’s Automotive Preferences

The episode kicks off with the hosts addressing a listener's question about the prevalence of expensive new cars, particularly the Ford F-150, and whether buyers are individuals with high incomes or if they are overextending financially.

Notable Quote:

• Katie Yaddy Tossan [03:17]: “Who are the people buying all of these $85,000 new cars out there?... are they just going into massive debt and their budgets are totally out of whack?”

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2. Examining Auto Financing Trends

Henna introduces data from Experian, highlighting a significant rise in high credit scores among borrowers and a predominant preference for SUVs in vehicle financing.

Key Statistics:

• 61% of all vehicle financing in the U.S. is for SUVs.
• The average monthly payment for a used car in 2024 is $525 with a loan term of 67 months; for new cars, it's $730.

Notable Quotes:

• Henna [09:44]: “61% of all vehicle financing in the US is for SUVs.”
• Katie Yaddy Tossan [10:05]: “That’s encouraging.”

The discussion reveals a trend where despite SUVs being generally more expensive than sedans, they dominate financing due to cultural preferences and perceived safety benefits.

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3. Cultural Obsession with Large Vehicles

The hosts delve into the cultural significance of large vehicles in America, contrasting it with European preferences for smaller cars. They argue that the American penchant for SUVs and trucks like the F-150 is deeply rooted in ideals of freedom and strength.

Notable Quotes:

• Henna [13:55]: “There's nothing more patriotic than a Suburban. And the fact that it's even called a Suburban. Like, we're obsessed with suburb culture, dude.”
• Katie Yaddy Tossan [16:38]: “SUVs are quintessentially American. Think of all the Super Bowl ads every year where it's like the rough and tough cowboy getting on his Ford F150.”

This cultural analysis highlights how marketing perpetuates the belief that larger vehicles are synonymous with personal success and safety, fostering an arms race mentality among consumers.

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4. Financial Implications of Car Purchasing Decisions

Katie and Henna discuss the financial strain associated with purchasing high-ticket vehicles, especially for households earning around the median income.

Notable Quotes:

• Henna [18:03]: “Median household income in the US is $80k per year as of 2023. So that's a lot of money for an $80k household income. And that's just for one car.”
• Katie Yaddy Tossan [20:20]: “That 12% double digits, dude.”

They emphasize that high monthly payments for new cars can consume a significant portion of a household's budget, leading to financial instability and debt accumulation.

Listener Story: A listener shared a dilemma where getting married would disqualify her partner from low-cost health insurance due to combined incomes, illustrating how intertwined financial and personal decisions can become.

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5. Best Practices for Responsible Car Buying

The hosts outline strategic approaches to purchasing vehicles responsibly, emphasizing affordability and long-term financial health over status and aesthetics.

Best Practices Discussed:

• The 23:10 Rule: Henna suggests a modified rule where purchases should allow car expenses to remain below 10% of net income, diverging from the traditional 20% down and three-year payoff guidelines.

  Notable Quote:

  • Henna [25:07]: “Personally, I might tweak it to 23:10... total monthly cost... no more than 10% of your net income.”

• Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) Vehicles: Both hosts recommend buying slightly used cars to benefit from lower depreciation and extended warranties.

  Notable Quote:

  • Katie Yaddy Tossan [33:39]: “Don’t sleep on certified pre-owned if it's a good deal... my Honda Civic is certified pre-owned.”

• Pre-Approval for Loans: Securing financing before visiting dealerships to avoid unfavorable loan terms.

  Notable Quote:

  • Henna [43:26]: “Get a loan pre-approval from a bank that you already bank with or a credit union... you have this option.”

• Shopping Timing: Taking advantage of end-of-month or holiday sales to negotiate better deals.

  Notable Quote:

  • Henna [44:03]: “Don’t sleep on the President’s Day sales or things like that... take advantage of salespeople trying to meet quotas.”

Practical Example: Henna shares her experience of purchasing a used Audi A3 with a five-year term, highlighting the importance of balancing loan terms with monthly affordability to avoid financial strain.

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6. Addressing Systemic Issues and Personal Financial Health

The conversation shifts to broader systemic issues affecting personal finances, such as subprime lending practices that trap individuals in high-interest loans for unreliable vehicles.

Notable Quotes:

• Henna [21:58]: “They are taking advantage of people.”
• Katie Yaddy Tossan [22:00]: “That is devastating for people.”

The hosts express empathy for individuals forced into unfavorable financial situations due to inadequate public transit and exploitative lending practices, advocating for systemic reforms to alleviate these burdens.

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7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Katie and Henna wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of informed and strategic car purchases. They encourage listeners to prioritize financial stability over societal pressures to own large, expensive vehicles and to consider alternative transportation methods when feasible.

Notable Quotes:

• Henna [45:34]: “Driving it just until the wheels fall off is probably the most important thing.”
• Katie Yaddy Tossan [46:07]: “Leasing a car is like setting it on fire.”

The episode concludes with a listener story highlighting challenges faced by self-employed individuals in managing healthcare costs alongside car expenses, underscoring the episode's central theme of balancing personal finance within systemic constraints.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Cultural Influence: The American love for large vehicles like the F-150 is as much cultural as it is practical, often overshadowing financial prudence.
2. Financial Strain: High monthly payments for new SUVs and trucks can lead to significant financial stress, especially for households near the median income.
3. Responsible Purchasing: Adopting best practices such as opting for certified pre-owned vehicles, securing loan pre-approvals, and timing purchases strategically can mitigate financial risks.
4. Systemic Challenges: Issues like subprime lending and inadequate public transit contribute to individuals making financially detrimental decisions out of necessity.
5. Personal Finance Prioritization: Emphasizing long-term financial health over immediate gratification from owning expensive vehicles is crucial for sustainable personal finance management.

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This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of how personal vehicle choices are influenced by broader economic and cultural factors, offering listeners actionable advice to navigate the complex landscape of car ownership responsibly.

Transcript

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

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[Henna]

See full [e-mail] commissions Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC Member NYSE SIPC Rich Girl Roundup Merry Toyota Thon yeah Happy Honda Days to you Lexus December to Remember Sales Event I'm like how many more of these are there?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Why do you know all of them? Is my question.

[Henna]

Love it. Welcome back to the Rich Girl Roundup weekly discussion of the Money with Katie Show. I'm Katie Yaddy Tossan and this is our last proper Rich girl roundup of 2024. We'll get into it right after a quick break. You want a home soon, but you also want kids someday. So how do you balance both financial priorities? Emma and Tom weren't sure how much they could afford to buy in New York City given that childcare was going to be a major expense one day. But by working with the flat fee CFP at Domain Money, they learned exactly how much they would need to save for a more affordable home and to allow for quality childcare. And get this, if they had stayed their previous course, their original budget would have been overextended by nearly a quarter of a million dollars and instead they're avoiding expensive mistakes and they're set up for long term financial success. If there is a large purchase coming up in your life, you need a financial plan. I started working with an incredible flat fee CFP at the beginning of this and guess what? You can hire her too. Her name is Katie Song at Domain Money. Book a free strategy session with Domain Money and then select Katie or anybody else on her team of CFPs that she has trained herself and your advisor will create a step by step financial plan to help you achieve your goals. All for a one time flat fee. They will answer all of your questions and create a straightforward plan for your life. Start building your financial plan today with domain [e-mail] domain money that's moneywithkatie.com domain money I'm a real client of Domain Money via my employer Morning Brew. I receive compensation and have an incentive to promote Domain Money. See Important disclosures at DMN MNY Co Slash X before we read this week's question. The upcoming main episode this Wednesday is all about the personal finance philosophy that says you don't need to budget right after having Ramit talk about his conscious spending plan on the show. I know this is criminal, but it'll be a good one, so make sure you tune in. Okay, onto the roundup. Hannah, what is our question this week?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

So this week's question came from Rich girl Allie. She said, so I've listened to the Feeling Bad for the Joneses episode and all of the others about the way that people feel about the economy. And there's something that I can't wrap my head around. Who are the people buying all of these $85,000 new cars out there? I have pretty healthy finances and yet when I needed to get a new car, I still felt like I shouldn't get something more than a used Kia Sportage with a $400 monthly payment. And this is probably partially a me problem. But still, am I supposed to assume that every Mike and Tim out there buying a new F150 with a $1,200 monthly payment is also taking home a six figure salary? Or are they just going into massive debt and their budgets are totally out of whack? Not prescribing to the very precise money with katie recommendation of 13.3% in order to afford their Bronco and relive some OJ fantasies from watch that on TV at age 7. What do you think? Allie? I love the way you ask this question.

[Henna]

Okay, so first of all, I feel like there is a correlation between I feel like I shouldn't get anything more than a used Kia with a 400 monthly payment and I have pretty healthy finances. Well, true, like the causality on that might actually be backward. You have the healthy finances because your instinct is not to get a $1200 car payment.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I often think the same thing about this question because Giovanni and I have two paid off Honda Civics and I'm trying to run them into the ground before I even consider another car.

[Henna]

Denison, I did the most stereotypically responsible car purchase.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

It is like the Asian car to have.

[Henna]

Yeah. Wait, doesn't Ramit have a Honda Accord? Isn't that his? It's like 20 years old.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah, I mean you would be hard pressed to find an Asian family that does not have a Honda sedan.

[Henna]

Dude, ever since I visited France over the summer, I have to say I deeply, deeply yearn for fast, clean, effective public transit. Like every single time I drive around this suburb in my car I'm like, I hate it here.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Well, okay, because I, I've taken trains in like England and Vietnam and Italy, and they have all been such great experience. And so I also agree that we need better high speed rail, but I, I also firmly believe that we need walkable cities, more walkable cities, because that is where the bulk of driving happens. You know what I mean? Like, that's your day to day. You're not. I'm not usually driving three to five hours to get somewhere.

[Henna]

Yeah. So last week on the show, we heard from Ramit Sethi and his Honda Accord. And as you probably know, if you're Ramit acolyte, one of his most valuable, in my opinion, quips is don't ask $3 questions, ask $30,000 questions before you move forward.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Speaking of Ramit, can we replay the clip from the episode of Ramit? Also dunking on this topic.

[Henna]

Roll the clip. And truthfully, the biggest two sources of overspending are, in this order, number one, housing, and number two, your cars.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Okay.

[Henna]

A lot of bros driving $70,000 trucks two miles on a flat road to their insurance job. It's like, what are we doing here?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

When he said, what are we doing here? I was like, that's so good. Okay, continue.

[Henna]

Yeah, I think this is, at first when I read this question, I just thought it was funny. And I was like, that would be a fun one. But then I thought about it more and I was like, actually, from like a practical standpoint, this is a extremely, extremely justified conversation to have on a personal finance show because this is a $30,000 question. Like, this is usually going to be one of the most expensive things that you own. And it's a decision that, to Ali's point, I think a lot of people probably are not making with the best information. I have also had the same experience that she describes. But I will say it's almost always in like the airport parking garage, which I recognize is like a pretty select group of cars to begin with. Like, there is a selection bias happening there where I'll walk around and I'll be like, every single car in this garage is like brand new or luxury. But then I'm like, yeah, but if you're at the airport to begin with, you're taking a flight. So, okay, that's already like a pretty upper echelon of socioeconomic status. But then beyond that, you're like, parking in the covered parking. So that's another thing. And I'm like, maybe I should take a harder look at my life. Like, maybe I'm. I'm the asshole who's like, who are all these lazy rich people parking? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm also sitting in the parking garage.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

So we live right across from a Rivian showroom. And so every time I see a Rivian, I'm like, ugh, Hunter, who's affording this? And I'm like, oh, well, we do live right there.

[Henna]

You're like, well, what does it say about me that I live across from the showroom? I have this feeling sometimes. Ever since work from home became more prevalent. If I ever go out and do something in the middle of a day, like a weekday and I see other people around, I'm like, why aren't none of these people at work? What are all these people doing all day? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, thing.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Like, if I'm running an errand, I'm like, don't you all have to be at work? What do you guys do? But I do. I do think it's funny, though, to see the meme that was like, everybody that voted for the economy said it was like, because the price of eggs was too high. And then we broke Black Friday record shopping sales. So, like, we are asking, you know what I'm saying?

[Henna]

For sure. No, it's like, I, as much as I recognize the selection bias in doing, like, bougie shit and being like, how can all these other people do all this bougie sh. It's like, there is so discretionary spending. I was curious. I looked into it. It's still down overall from the end of 2021, which, like, if you put yourself back in 2021, you had the stimulus checks coming and, like, people actually had some excess savings for once. And, you know, the late capitalist machine took its foot off everyone's necks for, like, 10 minutes and then they were like, no, no, that's not going to work. Back to work. Don't do that. But it has been trending upward for, like, months. Like, discretionary spending has been on the rise for, I think, five months straight. So there is some data that, like, does kind of indicate people are still buying stuff. Like, the hashes have not been battened down in any meaningful way. But. Okay, so let's talk about cars specifically. I found an Experian data slide deck online.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Okay.

[Henna]

To look at 2024 auto purchase data. And I guess I'll start with some good news. I noticed that bar borrowers in the super prime category of credit. So, like, the highest credit scores actually hit a six year high. Like one in three borrowers have a credit score above, I don't know, 780.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

That's encouraging.

[Henna]

Yeah, I like, I don't think it's necessarily that people are behaving irresponsibly. Necessarily. Not to say that having a high credit score means that you are, like, responsible with money. It just means you're good at borrowing money and paying it back. But that was encouraging to me. I was like, all right, okay, that's good. Here's a crazy stat, though. 61% of all vehicle financing in the US is for SUVs. 61%. And I think pickup trucks were at 16% and sedans were at 16%. But it's like the vast majority of cars that people are financing in this country are SUVs.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I'd be curious if the people who own the SUVs have families or if we're talking about single people or individual couples without children, anything like that. Because that's, that's the reason I would see that you'd have, as a childless.

[Henna]

Woman with an suv.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

True, true. People have it for their dog. Their pet.

[Henna]

Yeah, yeah. Rip Bean dog. Yeah. So then another stat that kind of stunned me. Hondas are the number one leased brand. And I just have to say, why is anyone out here leasing a Honda? A Honda is going to outlive your grandchildren. You should buy that car and keep it until you die because it's going to last longer than you.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

That is one, true two. I remember I only paid like $260 a month for mine. And I remember thinking that anything more than $350 at the time was like nuts.

[Henna]

Same. That was also kind of my upper limit of like, that's crazy.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I know that inflation has been a lot in the last 10 years, so maybe it's 400 or something that I would be more comfortable with. But I don't know when I'm hearing some of these numbers that people throw out of their monthly payments or that TikTok where the lady went around and asked at a car dealership, like, how much do you pay for yours? And they were like $1,078, $1,200 for.

[Henna]

A G. I would not be caught dead. Can you imagine?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

On top of that, that's just the payment that doesn't include the insurance, the registration, the gas, the maintenance.

[Henna]

Yeah, well, so there's. It's just like a two part thing too. I feel like this is kind of a perfect example of the nexus of where, like, systemic issues meet individual behavior. Because it is true that cars. And because our cars are so electronic now, they have so many freaking chips in them and they are so. I was reading something the other day that was like, the biggest mistake that we've made is making cars so technological. Because when stuff breaks, it's really expensive to fix them, like to repair them, and they just don't last as long. It's like the way that, like, some refrigerators now have screens and it's like, what are we doing?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

My friend has a car where, you know, it has that eco friendly feature that if you idle at a stop, it like turns your car off.

[Henna]

Oh, my God, I hate that I turned that off.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

It, like, made the battery die much faster. Even though it's supposed to be this, like, eco friendly, smart function. But I think there's something with that. And also, I wanted to talk about America's obsession with big cars. I wanted to talk about that.

[Henna]

Yeah, like, culturally, again. I feel like I, I put on my Judge Judy hat and then I immediately realize that every single thing I'm saying applies to me. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. You are also a moron. But yeah, it's like the cultural obsession, there's that. It's like an arms race, though. Like, I. I remember looking at smaller cars and being like, I'm kind of scared, though, because everyone drives these enormous vehicles that I'm like, it's like game theory where you're like, well, if everyone else is in a giant car and I'm in a tiny car, if I get in an accident, I'm going to die. So now I need to have a big car.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

This is exactly what I wanted to talk about. These were my notes. How did you. How did you do that? So there's this Economist piece that came out that said that our country's affair with big cars is actually killing us both from a climate standpoint and from safety standpoints. But then they said this line that was just Chef's kiss. It said, but the odds that car makers curb their heaviest, most dangerous vehicles are slim. American car buyers value safety. Safety, but mainly for themselves, not society as a whole. And I was like, that speaks so perfectly to the individualism we have in this country, which is, if everyone's gonna have a big car, I need to have a big car to protect myself.

[Henna]

Yep.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And I saw this thread on Reddit, whose name I cannot say on the air, but they made a great point. They said, when everyone around you rides transit, or everyone around you bikes, or everyone around you walks you are going to adopt what they do. Like when in Rome, when everyone around you drives, you won't think about doing otherwise. And I think employers need to be more proactive. There's a whole menu of things employ could do to facilitate non car commutes, whether it's subsidizing transit passes, installing bike parking, installing showers, funding their own shuttles. My larger point is like, I don't think we should be giving your employer more power over your life. Yeah, necessarily. But I do think there's something in that that's interesting about everyone needs to get on board with this idea or none of us are ever going to.

[Henna]

Yeah.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

You know, get to a better place. And also, like, automakers make more money from creating trucks than they do small cars.

[Henna]

Yeah, you make more money from the big cars and you make more money when you load them with tech. Like I was looking at to try to figure out, okay, what is like the cheapest, reliable, safe car you could get and you're still gonna spend a lot of money on that. Even the reliable cars that are like, quote unquote, affordable are not inexpensive. And so it's that perfect example of like, you've got the cultural influences, you've got the practical concerns about safety, because you've got this crazy game theory playing out where the cyber truck dude that are like, indestructible dude.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I literally wrote, I present without comment, the cybertruck.

[Henna]

It's like you can. If a cybertruck runs into you in a Yaris, you are dead as a doornail.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I saw a cybertruck accident and the car behind it was totaled. The cybertruck had not a scratch.

[Henna]

And it's like, what a perfect example of how fucked up that mentality is. Like, I don't care what happens to the people around me as long as I'm okay. I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was, that hologram trading card. One of the rarest, the last one I needed for my set.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Shiny, like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.

[Henna]

Whatever you love, find it on eBay. EBay, things people love.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Here's the other thing. When you were talking about culture, it's like SUVs are quintessentially American. Like, think of all the super bowl ads you See every year where it's like the rough and tough cowboy getting on his Ford F150. Like, because the people associate SUVs with freedom and strength and like. Yeah, well, for whatever reason, the F150 is the car that people think of.

[Henna]

There's nothing more patriotic than a Suburban. And the fact that it's even called a Suburban. Like, we're obsessed with suburb culture, dude. Yeah, it's a mess.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Anyway, I say all that to say I think you we are spot on that it's a cultural and individual issue.

[Henna]

Yeah. Because then at the individual level it's like, yes. And all of that is true. And also you still have some level of agency over the type of vehicle that you buy. Do you need a $90,000 full size SUV? Like, can we maybe consider bringing back the minivan? I don't know.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Do we need a Porsche Macan?

[Henna]

Like I said, like I said, I start wagging the finger and then I'm like, the finger starts pointing back at me. Okay, so more stats to your point about, like, we can put some numbers around this. The average monthly payment for a used car in 2024 is $525 with an average loan term of 67 months. So that's between five and six years. For new cars, it is $730 a month.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh my God.

[Henna]

I know. That feels extremely high to me.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I'm wondering because you know how sometimes people will send us their wealth planners and we'll like, look at someone's finance or they'll email us about their finances. I kind of feel like maybe part of this is people got in at the really low mortgage rate and so they're like, I have extra room in my budget to get this baller car now. Because I'm trying to think, where would most people have room in their budget for $700 car?

[Henna]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That's. That's definitely possible. I also wonder sometimes if, like, I think both Thomas and I, we bought our cars at like the worst possible time. Like we got them in 2023. I know we both overpaid because it was like kind of at the height of just like cars being so expensive because of we were still in that like supply crunch of the chips and whatever. But yeah, 7:30amonth. And then the average cost of car insurance is 205amonth. So like think, hold that all in your frame of reference that like, on average we're talking 700 all in. If you're used to 900 and something all in. Median household income in the US is 80k per year as of 2023. So that's like, that's a lot of money for 80k a year household income. And that's just for one car.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Well, because I'm also thinking that the median household income being 80k means that all of these massive cities that rely on public transit or you don't need a car, like New York City, is also being calculated in that number. Right. So like, the household income for the areas where you actually need a car are probably even lower than $80,000 possible, which makes it an even more outsized part of your budget.

[Henna]

Here's a fun one. Per the F150 of it all, men have 16.3% more auto loan debt than women. Men on average buy more expensive vehicles. Then the average interest rate as of Q2 was 6.84% for new cars. And are you ready for use? You're going to throw up. Okay, 12%. 12% double digits, dude.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

For a used car.

[Henna]

Gnarly. That is usury as far as I'm concerned. That's what I'm saying though, is like, okay, so sidebar. So my dad volunteers with this organization that helps people in rural Tennessee. Yes, I think I've talked about this on the show before. Basically, they will go to people's homes. It's kind of like a, hey, what do you need right now? How can we, you know, make your life easier? One of the things that he says he consistently sees is people who have basically like 400 to 500 per month car payments for like used, old, beat up cars because the dealership in their town is screwing them because they don't have good credit. They're buying, I mean, I'm talking 2005 Chevy Impala, $400 a month because the rate is like 28%.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[Henna]

So part of what they do to help them is basically take out. There's like a lending program with this organization where they will pay off the remaining whatever on the loan that they've got and then give them a new loan at like a more reasonable interest rate because you basically you can't get ahead. Like, you have no room in your budget. You're way overpaying for a car. They've already put more into it than the cars are even worth. But it was like that was the only way that they could access transportation. And so again, it does come back to, I wonder how many of these problems would go away if you just had good public transit and some reasonable limits on subprime usury. Because again that is what it is. Like they're taking advantage of people.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

That is devastating for people.

[Henna]

I know, it's really sad. I think it has opened my dad's eyes a lot to like the downsides of capitalism. Like unfettered. He's just like seeing these people get totally taken advantage of. They have like, they basically don't have any money.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Right.

[Henna]

They need access to these things. It's not like they're going out and buying a brand new Chevy Suburban. It's like they are getting the cheapest car that they can find and they're still just getting screwed. So I, I think that sometimes my like glee in being like oh you know the mikes and Tims. It's like there is definitely some of that. Don't get me wrong but there I, I do wonder what portion it's probably based on like the subprime lending data in this deck. Like 10 to 15% of these numbers that like the monthly payments are just high because people are getting taken advantage of.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah. To those people I extend nothing but empathy for that situation because well, what other choice do you have? And also if your car breaks down, what other choice do you like, you know what I mean?

[Henna]

Then you're immediately screwed. Like you are need to either get.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

A new car again or pay, you know, absurd amounts to get it fixed.

[Henna]

So yeah, so the average cost of a new car in the US 48 grand.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh my God, that's really high.

[Henna]

Bear in mind though, I think that that is really driven by the midsize SUV because remember 61% of all financing is for SUVs. So average cost of like the new car being that high I think is skewed up because of that average cost of a sedan is only 23,000. So far more reasonable. But the best selling car in America is the Ford F150 which retails for 37k base new and can go up to 76.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

For what? What are these features?

[Henna]

Well Henna, it depends on your trim level. Do you want the Tremor, do you want the Raptor or do you want the Power Stroke?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Those sound like sex toys.

[Henna]

I was going to say it's all very homoerotic. Which is why it's funny though if you look at like the best selling cars in Europe because they're all little Fiat hatchbacks and sedans. They're all tiny little like even in the areas where they have all the public transit they're like oh, we'll be reasonable. I'LL get a VW Golf.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

You know, those, like, smart cars that are so tiny. It's hilarious. Because when I think of when I see a smart car. Yeah. When I see a smart car in the U.S. i'm like, Bruh, like, you are really at risk. But obviously that's what everyone has in Europe. And I'm like, yeah, y'all are onto something there.

[Henna]

That's why I think it's just interesting to look at the decisions that people make around transportation given the context of where you live, where you're driving, the culture, the fact that you have no public transit options. Like. Well, not everyone has no public transit options, but most Americans do not have access to reasonable, safe, clean, viable public transit. So I was thinking what we could do next is just talk through some best practices. So, like, if you are in the market for a car and you want to think through putting some, like, scaffolding in place around the decision.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah.

[Henna]

The first thing is there is this popular, the kind of, like, rule of thumb is. I think it's a 238 rule. I personally am more of a 23 10. And I'll get into that. But it basically says you should be able to put 20% down. You should be able to pay off the car note in three years. So, like the 36 month financing, and then with those two boxes checked, your resultant monthly payment should be less than 8% of your monthly gross income. Again, per this rule.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Gross income. Okay, that's interesting.

[Henna]

I was gonna say, I tend to disagree with any financial metric that uses your gross income instead of your net income, because depending on your tax liability, that's gonna vary widely. So I might tweak personally again and say 2310. So 20% down, three year note, and then a total monthly cost, that's payment, insurance, gas, maintenance, whatever. That's no more than 10% of your net income. Like, what you're actually taking home.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Is that what's in the wealth planner?

[Henna]

Yeah. Although it will this year. Again, it varies based on your save rate. So if you have a higher save rate, it's going to compress that proportionally.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Henna]

The original 10% is based on a budget that I think is assuming 25% savings. So pretty aggressive, frankly. Like, we know the average save rate in America is 4%, but this is more reflective of, like, if you're striving for the moon, what would that look like? So that if you're paring it back to be more reasonable, you're starting in a place that's like, really strong for you financially.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And where do you think the three year note part came from?

[Henna]

Well, I don't know the origination point. This is something that I've kind of always heard in personal finance. But I, I think what if I had to guess, it's just because that's a term that's going to limit the amount of time that this payment coming out of your budget. And because as term lengths, the term lengths offered by lenders get longer, it just means that you are going to end up paying more in interest and you are like expanding the payment over more time. So it's coming out of your budget longer, you're stretching out a bigger number. You're probably going to be thinking that a more expensive car is more reasonable than it might actually be because you're spreading it out for so far.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I was just curious because I feel like when you go to buy a car, they're usually like 48 months or 60 months or 72, like it's usually that range. And I don't often hear 36, but so I was just curious where that came from. That makes sense.

[Henna]

I think that that's because the car dealerships are trying to get you to pay it off over a longer period of time. Because if you do compress it, your payment does go up. And I think that that's something to be aware of is just that, like if you're only looking at the monthly payment. Well, there are a lot of ways to make a monthly payment low. You can pay it off over 10 years. Right. But I think that that's where it's supposed to just give you like a. Okay, if I'm doing this over three years, if I'm doing this over like a reasonable period of time, what is the resultant payment going to be? And how can that kind of guide my overall purchase budget?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Henna]

Another rule that I heard that I liked, if you're buying a luxury vehicle, you should be able to pay it off in a year. And if that's not possible, it's probably not the best financial choice.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Sorry, this reminds me of the guy who emailed you who was like, katie, I don't think that you should be purchasing a Porsche at this age. And you were like, let's talk. And I don't know what you said to him, but then he emailed back being like, I take that back, enjoy.

[Henna]

I know. Well, I was just, I always think it's funny. I mean, I get it. I get. Because no one needs a Porsche at any age like that's not a need. It was, it's a hundred percent through and through a splurge. But yeah, I was able to buy it in cash and that was important to me at the time because I agree, I guess on some subconscious level with this rule of like, if I am buying something that is truly just like an adult toy, in no way should that be jeopardizing my financial future. Like, I only want to get this if I know that I'm on the right track and I, I can get it without hurting my long term financial prospects. And that was the situation.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I'm laughing because I remember when I went to go buy that Chanel bag, you were like, well a Chanel bag would be 2% of this net worth. Like are you comfortable with that? And I was like, a Porsche Macan is how much of your net worth? And you were like, this is not about me, this is about you.

[Henna]

Well, you can't drive a Chanel bag, so.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh, but the value goes up. Got em.

[Henna]

Oh, true, true. Whether or not you actually pay it off in a year I think would depend on the interest rate for sure. Like if I could get a 3% rate on the car, I would have just made the payments on it because that's so cheap. But it wasn't, it was like 7 or 8% or something crazy. So it's kind of the same mentality around like you don't have to put 20% down on a house, but you should be able to if you're going to buy a house. Like if you can only afford to put 3% down because you have no other cash, you're probably going to find yourself in a pretty uncomfortable position Once you get into that house and something breaks and you're like, oh, I'm house poor. So doesn't mean you have to pay it off in a year, just that you should be able to in order to kind of gauge like, is this actually a good idea? Or like, am I setting myself up for pain here?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

No, I think that that makes sense. It's an interesting rule because I was like, is that an adaptation from the three year rule? Like how did you land on one year?

[Henna]

Just because it's luxury, just because it's splurge, because it's just completely unnecessary. Do I need a Porsche? No, no one needs a Porsche.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

But also like it's going to be more expensive to upkeep, so you're going to need money for that too.

[Henna]

For 100%, everything. Yeah. I would say anyone who's ever bought an expensive Foreign car knows it is not just the car itself that costs more. You are on the hook for more expensive stuff the entire time because you're getting parts shipped from another country. They know that they have you on the ropes. Here's a perfect example. Y'all heard heard of tariffs not related, Apropos of nothing. So the other day, we were staying at a hotel in downtown Denver, and it was a. It was called the Brown palace, which is kind of a funny name, but it's like one of those, like, it's my house, actually. Shut the. It was one of those, like, old historic hotels, like, built in, I don't know, 1800 something.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Gotcha.

[Henna]

So we used points to pay for it, but across the street was a Holiday Inn. So it's like, you'll see this often in cities where there's, like, several hotels kind of like in the same little, like, block of space. They shared a parking garage. Okay. So both hotels had valet parking. And the sign said, Brown palace parking $60 a night. Holiday Inn parking $40 a night, same parking lot. But depending on which hotel you stayed in, you were paying a different price. And I'm like, that is what's happening here.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

That is America.

[Henna]

They know the people that stay in this hotel will pay more for parking than the people who stay in that hotel. They know people who buy the Porsche will pay more for the oil change than the person who buys the Honda. So, like, they're going to charge you accordingly. And that was something that I personally am like, my warranty lasts through 20, 28, so I'm like, I'm going to see how it goes for the next five years, I guess five years from the time I bought it. And I'm like, and if this is just, like, if I'm getting beaten over the head by German automaker parts, then I'll probably get rid of this car and get a Subaru or something if it becomes too much. Another rule that I came across that I like, that I'll just mention before we get into an example, is I saw someone say, your monthly contributions to investments should always be higher than your car payment.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah.

[Henna]

And I was like, okay, that's a good best practice. Again, we're taking out the example that I gave earlier of the subprime buyer who needs a car to get to work and is being taken advantage. Like, right. We're talking about someone who's like, all right, I'm in a good financial position. I'm ready to, like, buy a new car. What's a reasonable amount to Spend, like, if that is your attitude. I actually loved that kind of rule of thumb of like, okay, you're thinking it's reasonable. Well, are you investing more than that currently? Or like, is this going to far outpace your savings?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And like, are you jeopardizing your future for this car today? Yeah.

[Henna]

Yeah, That's a great tip.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I have two teensy tips on buying. One is, we've talked about this in the show before. Don't sleep on certified pre owned if it's a good deal, because then you don't pay the premium for the brand new, which we all know expires the moment you drive off the lot anyway, but it still comes with solid warranty. So that was my. My Honda Civic is certified pre owned.

[Henna]

And I'm glad you brought that up because that is part of my example.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh, well, there we go. My other tip is also something that applied for my Civic is sometimes opening up your radius of where you will look for a car means that you'll get lower costs in more rural areas. So, for example, like in New Jersey, the cost of cars were much higher than if you went to Pennsylvania. And so my dad ended up finding nice. My car in Pennsylvania. And like, just an hour outside of where we lived and it was $3,000 cheaper, which, like, wow, you know, when I was making $40,000 a year, that was a huge difference. And so I would just say, to the extent that you're not screwing over people in that community to our earlier point, or if you're in that situation, like, maybe that is something to consider. But honestly, my hottest tip is that if you can rely on public transport and ride shares and E bikes and carpooling with friends, avoid a car at all costs.

[Henna]

Yeah, we were a one car fam for a while and it was really nice, actually. Yeah, like, the level of like, I would say the only times that it was like, truly annoying or inconvenient was when Georgia had to go to the vet while Thomas was at work. So it was like, I can't take her to the vet on a bike. And like, you can't take a German shepherd in an Uber.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

So we're also one car right now and we have the same thing.

[Henna]

That's frustrating. But beyond that, I mean, I would say 98% of the time, like, there was a day where I literally just like got a rental car for a day and spent $40 with a rental car to take her to a surgery. So, like, the ways that you can get around it, the amount of money we saved over the years that we only had one, the amount of just like, like headache that we kind of saved too I think just not having to worry about having that second asset. Like it really was a nice kind of break from car ownership.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah. Right now my car is actually in New Jersey with our uncle and we're in one of those apartments we have to pay per spot. And I was like, we're not using the car. I work from home, like why would I pay this? So I always figured if I'm spending more on ride shares or other things that add up, up to the cost of just having the car on site, then I will move it on site. But it hasn't really worked out that way. And like now we know we have an emergency car if we need it. It's kind of been nice to be like, okay, we can be a one car family and make it work.

[Henna]

Yeah.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And it's not an end all, be all.

[Henna]

Yeah.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

You mentioned you had an example and that's what I think would be most helpful because we've thrown out a lot of like numbers and stats and.

[Henna]

Yeah, well I wanted to use an example that I had from a couple years ago where I kind of like in some ways did it right and in other ways did it wrong. So I think it's like a good learning example. So when I bought my previous vehicle, which was a 2017 Audi A3, I purchased it in 2020 CPO for I think it was $20,000.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Okay.

[Henna]

And my take home pay was $4,000 a month. So in that respect I basically broke the rule because I put 4,000 down which is 20%, but I did a five year term because the interest rate was 2%.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Well, did you really break the rule then? Because 2% is negligible.

[Henna]

Well, so the reason I'm saying I broke the rule is because I did the five year term, the 2% was great. My monthly payments were about 300amonth and my insurance was around a hundred. So like my total monthly costs were about 10% of my take home pay but over the five years instead of three. So like had I done my math with a three year term it would have been too expensive for me. It would have been like 500 just for the payment. So like, like I probably should not have purchased that car. But at the time I was like, Ah, 20K. That's like, that's great, that's great. Right. But anecdotally then I was trying to play around with some different examples and it appeared as though as I was kind of plugging in different payment amounts and different with the three year term and trying to figure out like okay, what would the like msrp like what would be like the total purchase price of the car be if you are sticking with this 2310 as we're calling it rule. And anecdotally it appeared as though the total cost of the vehicle was often somewhere between like a quarter and a third of annual income.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

So gross pay.

[Henna]

Yeah. I was like, that's an interesting finding actually. So it would be like if you're making $100,000 a year, you're looking at a car that's between like 25 and 33,000 as like a reasonable ballpark to start in. When you start plugging in these numbers like okay, 20% down, 3 year term, 10% of take home pay, et cetera. That was like generally the range. Now again that's kind of super rough math. But it was, it was helpful for me to be like, okay, so getting in the ballpark of like what is the overall purchase price that I would be starting with.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah, no, that's super. I think that's really great. Back with the napkin math. But I think this puts you in a precarious position if you're someone who makes less than the median income.

[Henna]

Yeah.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And you're in a choice where you, you have to buy a new car.

[Henna]

Yeah. So I figured what we could do is talk about like okay, what is the most responsible car approach? Like if you were going to check every box and be like grade grubber, straight A student about it, like what is the buy a Honda most responsible thing you would do? That is actually the top tip. Okay. So keeping those rules of thumb in mind, how would we actually execute this? So two communities that I disagree with are taking. Let me first tell you where I disagree. The Ramsey method is always buying cash. Disagree. You should not put that pressure on yourself. I get the impulse, I will say like it's not that different from like that. If you're going to buy a luxury vehicle, you should be able to buy it outright in one year. Like that should be something that you're capable of if you're going to do it. So I get the kind of impulse of like he's trying to discourage people from the Mikes and tims who make 75k and have a $1200 a month car payment on an F150 for their insurance job. Like I get it.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

It just seems a little extreme to me.

[Henna]

It's extremely. And the FI community on the other flip Side of that says like, yeah, buy it in cash and also buy like a five grand clunker. Buy an $8,000 clunker. I disagree with both of these recommendations. Being able to buy in cash is a good marker of whether or not you can actually comfortably afford something. But I don't think that it's always the most sensible way to approach it. Depending on the interest rate. If you have a low interest rate, you shouldn't be buying it in cash. That's silly, right? From a mathematical standpoint, if like you love buying things in cash and that's your love language with money, great, go for it. I'm not saying that in like any like moral judgment way, but like a, from a mathematical standpoint, you should not feel pressured to buy something in cash if you can finance it at a low rate. If it's something you need like a reliable vehicle.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah.

[Henna]

And sometimes you just need reliable transportation and you don't have a freaking choice. Like people have to get to work. So like, if you can't afford to buy it in cash, I also think that buying an excessively cheap clunker of a car can lead to the constantly dumping money into it problem. So that's why I think there's like a sweet spot where you're not buying something excessive, but you're also not buying something that like, is just going to end up costing you a ton of money to fix every six months.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Right, like the cheap boots theory or whatever it's called.

[Henna]

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking of. So my best practices, you already touched on one. Buy a car that is around three years old, preferably certified, pre owned or similar if possible because there is an extended warranty. So like depending on how old the car is, in many cases you buy a car that's one or two years old cpo, your warranty on that car is actually going to be longer than if you were buying it new because they're taking your like manufacturer's warranty and then adding a warranty onto it and you are allowing someone else to take that steepest hit of the depreciation curve.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Agree.

[Henna]

So you're getting a lot of the value chunked off the top and you're not having to pay for that. I would say buy a car that is known for reliability that you can keep until it no longer works. And so for that I'm thinking Honda, I'm thinking Toyota, or if you're trying to go a little bit more, you know, luxury than that, Acura or Lexus, which are just like the luxury versions of Hondas and Toyotas. My first car was like a dad hand me down where, like, he got a new car. So I got his car when he. When I turned 16, and it was a 2004 Acura TL. And it actually hit around 225,000 miles before it began having any issues.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Mine was a Toyota Corolla, but it did make it to 210.

[Henna]

Nice.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And it had a sunroof. And I just loved. I loved it so much. But then when it. When I was driving to work one day, the exhaust pipe just fell off. Like, literally just fell off. And then people were on the highway, like, pointing at me being like, ma'am, do you know that I had to, like, call my dad cry 50 miles out from work to be like, how do I drive this? And he was like, just drive really slow, it'll come.

[Henna]

Incredible. Incredible. Just drive really slow.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Then we had to sell it for parts. But anyway, that was Connie, the Corolla. She was a gem. She lasted 200,000 miles.

[Henna]

Yeah. These cars will last forever if you take care of them. So I think that that's a good thing of like, buying it used, buying it CPO if you can, and then just like gently used. Right. You're not buying a clunker that again. You're going to have to be like, putting money into all the time. It's still going to be reliable, it's still going to be covered.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I will say, though, make sure you're not getting a lemon. Like, you might want to just run that VIN report and like, all the other stuff that comes with it.

[Henna]

For sure, for sure. Same with, like, the accident reports of, like, has it, has it been in an accident?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Henna]

The next is get a loan pre approval from a bank that you already bank with or a credit union.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Hmm.

[Henna]

So then you take that pre approval with you to the dealership so you are not trapped using their financing. So it's like you want to apply for a pre approval with your bank of choice. You'll get a. Probably get a better interest rate from them than you're going to get from the dealership. And if, if not, great. But, like, then you have this option.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh, I love that. I've never actually thought of that before until you brought it up. I think one time someone at Morning Brew asked about it and you mentioned it and I was like, oh, yeah.

[Henna]

I never considered bring in a pre approval. Yeah. So you, you want to make sure that you're not just kind of like on the Ropes to accept whatever financing they'll give you. And then one little tip that I've heard before, I think it's true, but I'm not, I've never personally used it, so I'm not going to like personally vouch. Is shopping at the end of the month or like at the end of the year basically to like take advantage of salespeople trying to meet quotas, right?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

No, that makes, I've heard that before. And also like don't sleep on the President's Day sales or things like that because you might actually get a good deal depending on how aggressive they're trying to be.

[Henna]

Merry Toyota, Thon. Yeah, Happy Honda days to you.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Speaking of American exceptionalism, have you thought of shopping on President's Day weekend?

[Henna]

Lexus December to remember sales events. I'm like, how many more of these are there?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Why do you know all of them?

[Henna]

This is perfect that this is going to go out right before the holidays so we can wish everyone a happy December to remember sales event.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Happy Toyota thought.

[Henna]

And then my last one is just drive it until the wheels fall off. The most responsible way to buy a car. Here's my like, bottom line is like it almost doesn't matter the extent to which you like make mistakes or fudge the rules in with this other stuff. If you just drive it for like, like 10, 15 years, like all of those sins will be amortized over time if you keep it for a really long time.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Makes sense.

[Henna]

Even if you overpay, even if you get a luxury car, even if you do a five year term, even if you make these like classic quote unquote personal finance, you know, car buying mistakes. If you just take care of that car and drive it for a really long time and you're not trying to replace it every five years, you're going to be okay. So I would say driving it just until the wheels fall off is probably the most important thing.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Cybertruck, here I come.

[Henna]

God. I also in that Experian report, it was tracking cars with the most recalls and Tesla topped the list by like a lot.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Oh yeah, I believe that.

[Henna]

I guess my last thing is just because we haven't really talked about it, I think there are very few financial situations where leasing makes the most sense. It's not that there are none, but I think for the amount of leasing that happens in the United States, there's far more leasing happening than like situations that would say leasing is the most financially prudent way to access a vehicle.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Do you want to hear something funny? The top Page this year on moneywithkati.com was leasing a car is like setting it on fire.

[Henna]

Really?

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Which I was like, this is so old. But yeah, yeah, there's that. We did that episode on lease versus buy 22. Was it with Jorge Diaz.

[Henna]

He basically was like, in order to know if leasing is better than buying, you really have to think about how much money you're going to be putting into maintaining the vehicle over time if you own it. But basically the, the argument that I made in the those were the days, man. Those were the days. The article title was why Leasing a Car is like Setting Money on Fire. And the whole premise of it was like, you are basically paying for it during the steepest depreciation hit and then giving it back. That's like all it comes down to really. And so that's why I say there are very few situations where like that ends up actually being the most sensible thing to do. They exist, but it's not common. And so again, if your goal is to acquire, own and maintain a vehicle in the most financially responsible way possible, everything that we just laid out is probably what you would do. And obviously feel free to bend the rules to your situation. But that would be kind of the like checklist I would hand someone.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Did you have anything you wanted to add before I moved to a money story?

[Henna]

No.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Okay, so this week we have an email. I'm going to keep them anonymous, but they said a recent money predicament came up that I wanted to email you about to see if you all have covered this or just to share my story because it's so frustrating. My partner and I are both self employed and living in New York State. He's currently a very underpaid handyman, so he's able to get a pretty good deal on health care through the New York State Health Exchange. And he has some chronic medical issues. So good healthcare is very important. My income is about $93,000 per year and as you know, expenses like housing are very high and I cover our full mortgage which is about $2,100 plus utilities for a modest house in upstate New York. My partner and I have been together for six years and have been thinking about getting married, but we found out that if we get married he would no longer be able to get low cost health insurance because my income would negate that. I'm currently able to get a low cost bald captive insurance through a private company, but that company excludes pre existing conditions. So with his health conditions he couldn't be part of that plan. If we were both to be on a plan through the New York State Marketplace, based on my income, the lowest payment for the plan we would need, given his healthcare needs, would be about $2,000 per month. You're actively also trying for a kid and know that we will have daycare expenses coming up and there's literally no way we can get Marri given the cost of healthcare. I am beyond discouraged and frustrated with this system. And we will have to keep, quote, unquote, living in sin. I'm not the only person I know in this predicament. One friend can't marry his partner who stays at home to take care of his three kids so that she can stay on Medicaid with the kids. And this system is insane. And thank you for the work you do to raise awareness, but it could be so different.

[Henna]

Yeah. So we picked this story because yesterday, as of the time of this recording, the CEO of United Health's insurance group was killed in what police are saying was that a targeted attack in midtown Manhattan. I'm sure everyone's following this. The news broke this morning again, as of the time of this recording, that the bullets had inscribed in them deny, defend, depose, which could mean any number of things. But my mind immediately went to denied claims. And like someone that basically snapped, I'm not trying to become a true crime podcast, so I'm not really going to offer much conjecture beyond that. Obviously, this could be motivated by something completely unrelated.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

I guess my part of this story would just be United Healthcare for all. That is it. That is my tweet. That is.

[Henna]

I think you mean Universal Health.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

Yes, United Healthcare. I do read Universal Health, and this.

[Henna]

Is the time where we acknowledge that Henna's actually on UnitedHealth's pay. She's now working in corporate communications. I guess from a helpful standpoint, though, I would say my first instinct is to plug our recent ritual roundup about cohabitation agreements for unmarried partners. So if you are in this position, if you are someone that cannot get married because of health care costs, but you want to recoup some of the legal protections of marriage without getting legally married, cohabitation agreement could be for you and universal healthcare for all.

[Katie Yaddy Tossan]

And that's the tweet.

[Henna]

And that's all for this week's Rich Girl Roundup. We will see you on Wednesday.