A (2:57)

I am so excited to be here, Katie. Like, I'm really thrilled.

B (3:00)

Oh, well, I want to start with something that I heard you say back in an interview in 2018. And that is the origin story of the Money Diary series, which involves cocaine.

A (3:12)

Does.

B (3:12)

Can you tell me more about that?

A (3:14)

Sure, yeah. I love the Money Diaries origin story. So we had this amazing team at Refinery, and their whole purpose was to create content that would go viral. And it was led by this amazing editor, Jessica Chow. She's at the Wall Street Journal now. She's so smart. And we had both noticed that headlines with dollar signs did really well. And so she came to me and was like, we should do a Money Diaries. And I was like, I don't know, that might be boring. Like it might, you know, like, it might not be interesting, but I was like, let's try it. I always love to experiment. The Internet, you can always experiment. And she came back about a week later and shared this diary from a friend of hers that was like, pretty typical. It was like, I think she was like a late 20something living in Williamsburg and she like did the pretty typical late 20something things, except that she went on this date and there was a line item at the end of the date and it said, my date and I did cocaine, but he paid for it. And I don't know what it costs. And my editor and I both read this and we were like, oh, wow, this is something. And so we published it. And it's really funny if you can like dig it up and find the original one. Somebody in the comments, there must have only been like seven comments. And somebody in the comments was like, Refinery 29 has jumped the shark. So if you're wondering when R29 jumped the shark, it was when we published that first Money Diary.

B (4:46)

When you read that, were you like, this is gonna work?

A (4:49)

Yeah. I was like, oh my God, this is gold. It was so good. It was so honest and so real. And I think that I'm forever grateful. That was the first one that set the tone.

B (5:01)

Yeah. Cause I think that there's like a certain brand of confessional style content now that performs well, but there's always that undertone of this has been sanitized.

A (5:12)

Right.

B (5:13)

They are still presenting a version of themselves to me that they want me to see. I think that as the Internet has evolved, that has only gotten more true, as comment sections have only gotten more savage. If you're going to put yourself out there for consumption, you want to present the best version possible. And so I still think it's kind of shocking when you see somebody admit to something like that. Granted, it was anonymous, but still it's like very salacious.

A (5:38)

It was very salacious. None of us, I think, had been expecting it to be so salacious going forward. Most of them did not involve drug use like that.

B (5:48)

So two years after that first one, you all published this. I'm going to read this to you. The initial goal of this project was to show how everyday women spent their everyday salaries. But in the end it actually put on display how our readers, AKA you, felt about women earning and spending money as they please. It's been eye opening. At first we were struck by how judgmental the commenters were. See what happens when boyfriends pay for things. But we found the community that has sprung up around the series to be as diverse and complicated as the diaries we feature. An OP might be struggling or making mistakes or absolutely thriving. Regardless, the community will have an opinion. They cheer them on, offer advice, and call them out when they make mistakes. See the OP who thought avocados ripen in the fridge? FYI, they don't. Who amongst us? The series has raised a lot of questions about what it means to be independent, self made and successful. And that is a worthy discussion. When I read that that came out in 2018, I was like, whoa, that's really what it is. Surface level. It's about, are you spending $6 on a green juice? But like the deeper conversation that that inspired and I think the big feelings that we have about what women do with their money, and I say we because I think this is a lot of these commenters are also women. The New Yorker, for example, joked that the Money Diaries comment section was one of the darkest corners of the Internet. So what do you make of that now in retrospect? Did it change over time? Like, how do you think about that insight now?

A (7:33)

I don't know if it's changed. I think that we still all have really big feelings about how women earn and save money. And I do think that what I wrote in 2018 I still hold true. And that's why I continue to do this work at the Purse is that I think it's a really important conversation to be having. And really just publishing a diary is just the start of it. It really is meant to be, in some ways provocative and to push the envelope and to get people to really think about why do I have these feelings? Why am I so judgmental? Why are we so judgmental of women in general? And I think that for better or worse, the Money Diary comment section was a place where people could go and sort of vent. They could just kind of relieve some of that pressure that they felt of not being able to achieve the same level of success as some of the people that we shared or be lucky to have parents who support them or any kind of number of things. Or to just feel relieved that, like, oh, look, I spend like that too. Like, I'm normal, I'm doing what my peers are doing.

B (8:51)

I come back to the anonymity and the freedom that that grants. I sometimes wonder about when you said that it's a place for people to vent. I think that you're really hitting on something important there because these stories do stir up feelings in us. And I do wonder to what degree anybody who is feeling those things has the self awareness or wherewithal to take a step back and be like, what is this telling me about me? But I do think that that is the best case scenario. It reminds me a little bit of the. Yeah, saying that you should use jealousy as a guide. Like when you feel envy for something, that should signal to you that that is something that. Oh, okay, I clearly, I really want this. Maybe I didn't even realize how badly I wanted this. And the blurb that I read to you refers to these specific trigger points in the diaries, like a boyfriend paying for something. Were there any other trends that you noticed? Like specific elements of an entry that would always kind of like get people riled up or seem to cause a stir?

A (9:58)

We had a diary go viral in the summer of 2018, and it was wild. And people were very angry because it was a very young woman. She was like 22 or 23, and she was living in New York and she had an internship. And I think she was making $20 in an hour at the internship. But her parents were paying her rent, her grandfather was giving her an allowance. And people did not feel like the headline reflected her financial support that she was receiving. And people got so angry.

B (10:34)

Do you remember what the headline was?

A (10:36)

The original headline was probably like, interning in New York on $20 an hour. And then we revised it to interning in New York on $20 an hour with a thousand dollar monthly allowance.

B (10:50)

Oh. Oh, good. Okay. Okay. I actually think I remember this one.

A (10:54)

Yeah, it was a big deal. She went out to the Hamptons with her friends and they had like a private chef.

B (10:59)

Oh, gosh.

A (11:00)

And it really was like your classic New York City wealthy person summer internship.

B (11:06)

I do remember when that one came out. And I remember at the time actually feeling kind of seen by it. Not because I was in her shoes, but because I had friends whose parents were still giving them money. But I didn't Know how much I just knew from, like, things that they would tell me or like, when they would be like, oh, I'm putting this on this credit card. Cause this is the one that my mom pays. Like, I knew that there was support that was happening despite the fact that we were all working full time. And it was kind of illuminating to really see under the hood and be like, oh, wow, this is. This is like, how much this is potentially helping these friends. And like, I really should not be basing any of my financial decisions off them because I don't have this, like, extra line of income coming in.

A (11:55)

Yeah.

B (11:55)

The other thing that I've heard you say before is that when you had really high earners do money diaries, that also was oftentimes inflammatory.

A (12:08)

Yeah. In 2016 when we launched it was anybody making over 100k? But people always wanted to read those diaries. They were always, without fail, the most popular. And so we would get a lot of blowback that those were the only kind that we published. And it was always very important to me that we had diversity of income. And so that wasn't true. It wasn't. It wasn't a fair assessment. But they were always the most popular.

B (12:33)

That's really fascinating, actually, that you would get. They would get the most negative feedback. And yet you can tell from the numbers of the page views that these are the things that people are actually interested in reading always.

A (12:44)

And I wouldn't even say they're the most interesting. It's just, I think the voyeurism is there. It's like being. You don't want to know what somebody who's making 50k is making, because that's what you make. And like, who cares? But like, you're like, oh, if you make 200k, like, what extra stuff do you get? How do you get to spend your money in ways that you don't get at a lower salary?

B (13:05)

There's an element of projection, of like, what would my life look like if I, yes, earned that kind of money? Interesting. So if you were going to ballpark it, how many women's week in a life spending do you think that you've seen since then? And this is going somewhere, I promise, thousands.

A (13:23)

We used to get thousands of entries. So many more than we could ever publish.

B (13:28)

It's my understanding that you got more submissions than you really could even count. And that today, running the purse, you receive incredibly intimate details about people's financial lives and by extension, their lives. And this raises a sort of interesting question for me because I used to do A series on Instagram called Budget Breakdown. And I would put out a call, like, tell me what you make, Tell me what you spend. What do you spend on this? What's your mortgage, what's your rent, what's your car payment, what do you spend on food, et cetera. And we would get hundreds of them within hours. And so I know it's a bit of a truism at this point to say that people are scared to talk about money or they don't want to talk about money, but I don't know. Do you think that we might actually be dying to talk about it? Like, do you think that there is something to learn from the fact that we, as anonymous people, can ask strangers, tell me everything you spend, and hundreds of them want to share?

A (14:23)

Yeah, people are desperate, desperate to talk about money. I would get these young women on the phone, and even still, I get women on the phone and they tell me everything. But I don't think that they're having these same conversations with people that they know this is really like a cloak of anonymity. We just published an entry in my series on the purse home economics this week, and it was a young woman in Idaho who's a single mom, and. And she's actually just in a relationship and she's getting married. But she decided to share her story because she wanted to have a document of how far she's come by herself as a single mom. And I get it. Like, for some people, it's like a victory lap. It's like, look what I've accomplished. And I think that's pretty cool. I think it's pretty cool when people feel really good about their finances at a moment in time and want to share that.

B (15:16)

That's why I personally enjoy tracking so much. I love to be able to go back and look at my spreadsheet from 2019, 2020, and be like, holy smokes. Like, it can just be such a source of internal motivation and inspiration.

A (15:33)

100%. I always say to people, fill out the home economics form, even if you're not going to publish it. Fill out a money diary, even if you don't want it published, because it's so clarifying. It really helps you understand, like, where your priorities are, what your values are. And it can make you feel really good. And, you know, it can make you feel bad, but it also can be a motivation to get better.

B (15:55)

We'll get right back to this conversation with Lindsey after a quick break. One of the best money moves I made stopped trying to figure everything out alone. As I made progress and got closer to my overall goal, I started to second guess whether I was missing anything. Like was I as on track as I thought? Were my investment allocations appropriate for me? This is the plague of the self taught personal finance nerd. Does it sound familiar? Then I worked with Domain Money's certified financial planners and I got the peace of mind that I needed. They led me through a strategic restructuring of my asset allocation, my cash cushion, and they even helped me pinpoint the perfect timing for for an eventual home purchase. And it turned out it was actually later than I thought. What I love is that they don't give cookie cutter advice. They actually look at what you're trying to achieve. Then they optimize everything around that. Plus they use a flat fee structure. You know exactly what you're paying right out of the gate. You can hear from Domain Money's head of financial planning, Adriana Adams in my episode with her from September 3rd called a CFP on outdated advice, jumping social classes and why Money mindset matters. Ready to stop guessing and start winning with your money? See what the experience is like for yourself by booking a free strategy session to see if Domain Money is a good fit. Head to moneywithkatie.com domain money to book your session. That's moneywithkatie.com domainmoney I'm a real client of Domain Money via Money with Katie. I receive compensation and have an incentive to promote Domain Money. See Important disclosures at DMNMNY Co X. You've joked before that like at one point with these entries you had to be like, okay, no more marketing managers. They all make 75 grand no matter where they live. They all spend their money at SoulCycle and juice bars. Like this is getting stale. This isn't interesting anymore. But when the series began in January 2016, we did live in a different, I think, economic and cultural reality than we do right now. I think a lot of what has fully come to fruition today in December 2025. The seeds were there and the trends were there back then, but I think things have only accelerated. That was almost a decade ago and obviously you have not been producing these diaries the entire time. That was just the beginning of your journey that we're talking about today. But what you're doing now is thematically consistent in that you are still producing detailed overviews of women's finances. So have you seen the broader changes in our society and in our economy reflected in these women's finances that you see?

A (18:48)

Yes, I think I see women being Savvier in like small things and like investing in their 401ks and opening a high yield savings account. I feel like there is more financial fluency in the last five years to like pat us both on the back because of the work that you and I do. Right. Like I do think we do move the needle on that. There's the obvious rent or mortgage or electricity. So like those kind of basics are the same. I think what's interesting is that when you start to dig into like the reasons why people spend money and what they prioritize, that it becomes really interesting. The stuff to me is less interesting and the dollar amounts are not as interesting, but it's like the feelings behind it. And you know, I definitely think I have a self selecting audience. So I get a lot of primary breadwinners and shocking number of stay at home dads. And so like these things are really interesting to me. And so thinking about how society is changing in those kinds of ways.

B (19:50)

Yeah. When you say it's more about the feelings and the priorities, can you say more about that part?

A (19:56)

Yeah. I hear from so many people on the Purse that they really are interested in early retirement. There's such a interest in the fire movement, which I find to be fascinating. And when you kind of dig below the surface there, it's more that people feel a lot of job insecurity and want to make sure that they have enough money in the coffers so that if they needed to take a extended career break, they could. You know, it's a slightly older audience than Refinery 29 and Money Diaries. So it's a lot of families, it's a lot of people spending a huge amount of money in childcare. It's not unusual for their childcare bills to be bigger than their mortgage payments. You see stats floating around everywhere. But when I actually publish these entries, it's real life. People with these experiences. And I think that's really fascinating is to see like to take the stats and make them apply to real people.

B (20:55)

I will never forget the first time that a reader told me how much their childcare was in Boston. And it was like a radicalizing moment.

A (21:02)

Yeah.

B (21:03)

I was like, oh my God, that's more than I make in a month. Like that is actually more than my total take home pay. I actually cannot believe that. So I guess to put some scaffolding around what you're doing now, you produce two different franchises for the Purse, which is your media company that you founded, Home Economics, which is a detailed overview of women's finances, which the name is incredible. Chef's Kiss. Play on words. 12 out of 10 home economics detailed overview of women's finances. And then Division of Labor, which is a series that focuses on how families make it work. I'm curious if you had to pick, and I'm going to ask you to pick a favorite child here. Which of these feels more resonant to you, which tends to get the bigger reader reaction or interest? And why do you think that is?

A (21:55)

So? Home Economics definitely gets the bigger reader reaction. I think for the same reason that Money Diaries was so popular, because it really does peel back the curtain and allows you to see how people earn and spend and save and think about their finances. Personally, I really love Division of Labor because I think we're all walking around trying to figure out how the hell couples make it work and to really, like, get a sense of what a couple's day looks like is very fascinating to me. And I often hear from readers. While it doesn't necessarily get the biggest readership, I think that the dedicated readers to it get a lot out of it. And I often hear from people who are like, oh, I shared that one with my husband and we talked about it, or that one stood out and it was shared in my, like, with my mom friends. So I think there's a lot of, like, behind the scenes chatter that happens with the Division of Labor, which I really enjoy. It's funny because, you know, I'm a Brooklyn mom and so I'm always at these events and everybody wants to talk about Eve Rodsky's book Fair Play. And like, how does Fair Play work? Because I think we're all trying to figure out, like, how do you raise children and not want to murder your partner? And that's sort of the goal of this series.

B (23:14)

Okay, so that's actually a perfect segue. I want to read you something that someone sent in our Diabolical Lies subscriber chat last night because I just thought of you when I read it. Any other tired parents in here that want to commiserate or venture? I feel like I can't juggle any of it. If I focus on my kids and family, work suffers. If I focus on work, I feel like I'm not giving enough to my kids. I got a bad review at work yesterday and it just makes me not want to do anything. Learning so much about the world, especially capitalism, from this podcast, I'm so sorry. Just makes me want to throw in the towel and find a way to live off the grid. So that was the start of the thread, and a bunch of people hopped in and quickly commiserated and were sending very long messages, basically getting at this same feeling of just there never being enough time or feeling as though they can't win. Somebody was like, my best advice is just get comfortable disappointing people because, like, the idea of balance is not real, but you are going to have to be making constant decisions about who you're going to disappoint today and what's going to take priority. And when I read it, I thought, man, this really feels like exactly the struggle that much of the work that you do at the Purse speaks to, because this is really like, an undeniable element of personal finance. If we scratch the surface a little bit beneath personal finance, this is what you find.

A (24:35)

Yeah, it's not money, right? It's like, time. Time is. Is all of it. That's the thing. And, man, I can relate. I had my own mini meltdown this morning about childcare and how much work I have to do, and I haven't been paying for enough childcare this fall, and it's been really tough to then also get all the work done. So it's a struggle. And I would like to believe that the solution is not that we just. That somebody is always let down. Maybe we all, like, lower our expectations a little bit. That comes from me, who's, like, a terrible perfectionist. And I like to joke I'm a really bad boss to myself, like, really horrible. Like, the expectations are too high. And so I've been trying to reframe things a bit and realize you can't be everything to everyone. But, man, getting a bad review at work, that's really hard.

B (25:25)

It is. And especially I think if you are already coming at your life or orienting to your life as, like, I feel like I'm giving so much and it's never enough. And it's like this constant rush where there's never enough time. And, like, it's always taking all of me. I was listening to an interview the other day with Penn Badgley, and the interviewer asked him basically, like, well, do you feel. Because I think he has two young children. He was like, you know, do you feel like you get enough rest? And he was like, rest? I don't know about deep rest. He was like, I mean, when you have young children and you're also working, you sleep as much as you can, and then you use up all that sleep the next day. It's like every night you fill up the tank, and then every day you deplete it completely. And I thought that was a really good way to put it. And to that point of like, if you feel like you're, you're in that mode and then you're being told by someone in a position of authority or even like your, if your spouse is expressing disappointment in you or you know, your, your kids are expressing disappointment in you, I think that the amount of resilience that it takes to like keep going when you're faced with that sort of what's the point feeling is, I mean that's, that's really, really hard. And I also think kind of universal.

A (26:45)

Right. And I imagine this woman probably needs the paycheck too. So there's also those like compromises that we make just to earn money.

B (26:54)

Yeah.

A (26:55)

Which just makes it all feel worse. And then I feel like on top of it, there's social media which presents a lot of people who act like they have their shit together and you know, are offering advice 247 on how to optimize your life.

B (27:10)

It's almost so unapplicable as to be completely irrelevant.

A (27:13)

Yeah, it's the same problem that I have with celebrities who offer advice. And I think it's well meaning, but you have a different income stream, like you have different resources. The rest of us, you know, are just trying to get by. You know, when your daycare costs as much as your mortgage, there's not a lot of extra funds around to continue to outsource support. It would be nice if there was more realistic advice out there. Or maybe we just all need to stop listening to the advice altogether and realize like, you've got a well of knowledge within you and you probably do pretty well just on your own.

B (27:48)

And I think that there, there is a difference too between advice and disclosure. And I think what you offer is disclosure. It's like people who are sharing what they are doing and it's not necessarily them saying this is what you should do or like, I do it this way and that's better than whatever you're doing. When I read stuff like that, even if not consciously, I am always kind of looking for like, what could I be doing differently? And I think that there is a certain value to that even just in the variety of information that is out there.

A (28:23)

And I've written about this before, that I really don't like giving advice because people often come back and say, like, doesn't apply to me for X, Y, Z reasons. And it's like, okay, that's fine, but it applies to someone. So I've sort of tried to reframe it more as, like you said, disclosure. Like, let me show you a whole bunch of stories and you can pick and choose how this applies to you and how you want to use it in your own life.

B (28:50)

Mm. Well, and I guess in this broader conversation, I keep thinking about what you said about the interest in fire and retire early movement because I am very, I think, reflective about why that was so appealing to me before I really knew anything about money. That was the world of finance that I, after reading money diaries and after going to your book tour in 2018, like the World of finance that I ended up getting so enthralled with was the financial independence movement. And I think it just spoke to a deeper fear and insecurity in me. This like, deep sense of even at the time, not knowing anything, not knowing anything about our economy, not knowing anything about how the US Differed from other countries, not knowing how thin the social safety net was. I mean, it's kind of crazy that in retrospect, despite my ignorance, there was still some like, felt sense of this is kind of scary living paycheck to paycheck on $50,000 a year in this medium cost of living city. There's not a whole lot left over at the end of the month. How am I gonna progress? How am I gonna save for retirement? How am I going to start a family? How am I gonna buy a house someday? And I think that so quickly after I started working, I started to feel that sense of claustrophobia or insecurity, and it felt like a way out. It felt like an insurance policy, almost like, okay, well, this is a way that I can make sure that I'm never stuck. And this is a way that I can make sure that there's going to be a safety net underneath me if something goes wrong. Yeah, I'm actually kind of surprised to hear that. Like, you still hear people excited about fire in your entries.

A (30:36)

Yeah, so frequently. Fire drives me crazy for so many reasons. A big one being that I always felt like it was a really male dominated concepts and didn't take into account having children. And I almost feel like it could use a reframe the retire often idea, you know, like take short retirement more frequently. And I, I love the idea of reframing the time that women take off around having their children as, as a mini retirement rather than giving up their careers for their children.

B (31:16)

Totally.

A (31:17)

And I think that if you could reframe fire in that way, like this idea that you save a lot in your 20s so that you can have some flexibility in your 30s, when you have kids. And then when your kids are old enough, when you're in your 40s, you can turn back to being. Leaning into your career. I think that that would be a really interesting way to look at it. I haven't seen that out there.

B (31:40)

So that is Gillian Johnsrude. Her book Retire Often. I actually did interview her for the show when her book came out. And that is a concept that I think was met with both excitement and curiosity and also skepticism and I think some frustration because I think people felt, as is often true, well, this isn't realistic. This is such a departure from the way that society is structured that, like, I don't think I could pull this off. But I do think that there is value in thinking about it that way. And I think that to your point about how we talk about when you have young children and you also work full time, I think 10 years ago, when I was in the throes of my girl Bossitis, I definitely would have been like, you never give up a career for your kids. Oh, my gosh, that's so whatever. And now I think that I'm again, don't have children. But I think now that I have a better understanding of the economy that we live in and what most people's work lives look like, I'm like, I feel a little bit taken for a ride that I ever really kind of bought into that. It's like, oh, yeah, fuck your family. You need to be focused on shareholder value, babe. I'm like, not all careers are created equal. Right? People get different things from work. But I definitely think that I've come to see taking those mini retirements, taking time away, having different seasons of your life where you focus on different things is actually, like, very deeply human and very healthy.

A (33:11)

I would think that ultimately in the long run, it would make you a better worker.

B (33:16)

Look at us. Both were like. And it would make you more productive long term. We're like, yeah, take a break, babe.

A (33:21)

Take a break.

B (33:22)

Okay, so you were working at Fortune when you left to start your own business, right?

A (33:27)

Yeah.

B (33:28)

How long had you been dreaming up this shift? By the time you actually left and did it.

A (33:35)

So I never intended to be an entrepreneur. That was bottom of Lindsey Goal's dream job, like, so far on the bottom. I had a really wonderful job at a startup before joining Refinery, and I helped shut that company down. And after that, I was like, never again. Like, this is so traumatic. Never, never will I build my own empire. But then at Fortune, I found myself having the same conversations that I had had at Refinery and I was a little bored and I had this idea for the purse, which was called like no name women's site in like a Google Doc for a while. And then actually it's funny, Jacob, who was my boss at the company that I helped shut down, was an amazing mentor through the process and helped me put together a business plan and encouraged me to take the risk. So I would say that the idea stretches all the way back to my time at Refinery and some things I was trying to have happen at Refinery that didn't. And then really the idea of leaving Fortune. I left in June. I probably, I think I texted my friends in February 2023 and was like, I'm going to quit my job. Don't let me not quit my job.

B (34:51)

Has the experience surprised you at all?

A (34:53)

Yeah, it's totally different than anything I ever thought. It's wonderful and terrible in equal measures every single day. Like it like, like the highs are so high and the lows are so low and I second guess myself a thousand times. But the winds are pretty amazing and having this creative freedom has been really rewarding.

B (35:18)

We'll get right back to it after a quick break. You know what makes my work days drag on more than anything else? Uncomfortable bras. Underwires that poke through pinching elastic, irritating seams. They're all day ruiners. So I started looking for alternatives. That's why I finally tried the Skims Fits Everybody collection and it lives up to the hype. I fell in love with the Fits Everybody Triangle Bralette, which is as comfortable as it is flattering and it doesn't beg to be taken off at the end of the day. Shop the Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday shop is now open@skims.com that's skims.com taking care of yourself starts with a good night's sleep. And that's where Eight Sleep comes in. Eight Sleep just launched Pod 5, the newest generation of its signature smart mattress cover. Its Smart Mattress cover and blanket enhance your existing mattress with personalized temperature regulation on both sides of the bed, plus elevation, sound control and sleep tracking. No wearables required. As a result, eight Sleep reports that users can get up to one full hour of additional quality sleep per night. And as you may know if you are a longtime listener. I proudly consider myself a 1% sleep spender and I have had an eight sleep for years. It is a game changer. I will never go back. Head over to 8sleep.com katy and use the code Katie to get $350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. Try it at home for 30 days and if it's not for you, you can return it. That's eight sleep.com K. In another recent interview, you said something that jumped out to me and this is maybe a little meta, but you said, right now I'm sacrificing financial security for emotional security. What did you mean by that?

A (37:34)

I had like a 20 year career almost by the time that I left Fortune. And I'd always worked for other people and I had good bosses and bad bosses and I was always very entrepreneurial within organizations. But it was always very frustrating when people said no. And people were always saying no. And I could do a lot and I could still get the feedback that it wasn't enough. And so it just felt like I had reached a point where it was time to take a chance on myself and to be the person saying no instead of hearing other people say no. And so I would say in a lot of the ways, this is the best job I've ever had because I have so much creative freedom and because I'm spending this up on my own and it's very rewarding. And, you know, I hear from readers all the time on how much they like it and it's growing and that's fun, but it's not easy. And it's hard to get used to not getting a paycheck. And it's hard to take that big pay cut and going back to talking about fire. My husband and I were such careful savers in our 20s and 30s. And I do have a safety net which has allowed me to be able to do this in a way that had, I noticed, saved a lot during those first couple of decades of adulthood. I wouldn't be able to do it. And I also have a husband with health insurance, which is huge, which is gigantic.

B (38:53)

Yeah, preach. Shout out to husbands with health insurance.

A (38:57)

Yeah. I mean, it's everything CeCe Thomas toss in. Exactly. It's exciting and it's creatively satisfying. I'm not getting rich off it right now. Hopefully one day I will. Hopefully one day the paychecks. That is the goal. And, you know, there's always that sort of fear that like, oh my God, have I tanked my career? Like, who's, who's going to take me back in corporate media? Should corporate media still exist? You know, when I eventually reach, you know, the apex to this and decide, okay, it's time to go back to.

B (39:31)

An office, is that on the horizon for you? Like if it takes off like phenomenally, do you still think that you would be like, eventually I'm going to return to the world of corporate media?

A (39:43)

I never say never about anything. Like I said like this entrepreneurship was not on my to do list in the last 12 years. So it's been a surprise to be here. And so I think that I don't really look around at other jobs. I work with this wonderful editor, Alicia, and last week I was doing my finances and she sent me a job listing and I was like, like, shit, don't send me job listings when I'm doing, doing the books.

B (40:13)

You're like, are you trying to tell me something right now? What, what are you doing?

A (40:17)

Like, don't do that. I'm very happy right now and I have so much I want to still accomplish. So it's definitely not something I'm looking to do anytime soon. Should the like dream job come along? I don't, I don't even know what that is anymore. Like this experience has really changed my thoughts about what like a dream career means.

B (40:38)

Oh, and how beautiful to be. Like, wow, this completely changed my perspective on what a dream career is it.

A (40:44)

My perspective on so many things, on my own personal finances, on how much money is enough money. You know, I was with some friends on a girls weekend this past weekend and we were shopping and you know, I can't spend the way I did when I was making my fortune salary. I can't just shop. And I did a lot of emotional shopping in those years and I always feel a little bad about, I always feel a little like self esteem drop when I like can't shop the way I want to shop. And then I had this moment where I was like, but that's so stupid. There's nothing in this store that you need and you have enough. Why are you feeling sad that you can't buy a new sweater that you don't need? So it's been a really interesting. There's been a lot of reframing and thinking about priorities a lot.

B (41:34)

Man. I think all the time about this, just the different ways that different people value autonomy. And I have never been fully self employed. So in a way this conversation is very selfish because you did something that I'm about to do and I'm like, yeah, so how does it feel? Let me know. But I think I learned enough from the first two years of doing money with Katie on my own, on the side, that autonomy is, weirdly, something that I value more than just about anything. Like, I think the last couple of years, I have been very fortunate in this role in the sense that Morning Brew has been very generous to me, and things have gone very well, and I was in a position where I could buy things that I never dreamed I would be able to buy.

A (42:22)

Yeah.

B (42:23)

And it's really fun and really gratifying for, like, 36 hours. Yeah. And then you're like, and now I have another expensive pair of shoes in the closet. And that's great. I just think that there is a. There is a level of, like, deep fulfillment that I find from being able to do whatever I want that everything else kind of pales in comparison to. And I think that has been the core north star for me in going back and forth on this decision. And, like, is this dumb? Am I giving up, like, the greatest job in the world based on a hunch that I'm going to enjoy it more if I do it myself? Even if I make less money and even if it doesn't go as well, and even if all of these things are true, I think what I've come around to is, like, well, there's really only one way to find out, and that's to do it and to see what happens.

A (43:13)

There's also something to be said about doing hard things. I don't think that we talk enough about how important it is to do hard things and how gratifying it is to do hard things. Going back to, like, all the optimizations and how do we make our lives as smooth as possible? But, like, you get great stories when things go wrong. Like, it. It's entertaining. It makes your life richer. You can sort of optimize your way out of having a rich life, but.

B (43:45)

Oh, my God, that's such a bar, dude. Don't optimize your way out of having a rich life.

A (43:51)

Yeah. And I'm not even talking, you know, I'm like, obviously not talking about money in the bank. I'm talking about, like, friends and family. And.

B (43:58)

Yeah.

A (43:59)

Like, I think we sometimes lose that. I have to remind myself, like, I want to be here. I want to be doing this. Like, I want to be spending time. I want to be squeezing every minute out of every day. And, like, I think when you go off and you do this big thing, it'll be really hard. But It'll be exciting and you'll like be learning all the time, and that's really cool. And the highs will be high and the lows will be low. And you can text me and be like, Lindsay, why did you not interview?

B (44:28)

I'm gonna, I'm gonna allow myself one crash out per week. Yes, that's my, my crash out allotment. To your point about, like, you need to hear this too. I always joke that like the things that I say in interviews are the things that I need to hear. And I had a little bit of a revelation recently and I wrote about it sort of in my end of year letter in the newsletter this week. But I think because the last couple years I have put so much pressure on myself to make the most out of this opportunity that has really felt like the golden goose. Anything in my life that looked like it would take any time or energy away from the time and energy that I had to work and basically build a career was essentially clocked in my brain as like bad avoid. So it was like any sort of hobby, any sort of project, buying a house, having children, getting another dog. Like anything that looked like it was going to require something of me, energy, time, et cetera. I'd be like, oh, can't do that, can't do that. And it kind of hit me that like, what if the things that like, take up the time and energy that don't make money are good actually, like, which sounds so stupid to say out loud, but I think when you, when I have just been so one track mind for so long that it really did feel like a significant shift to be like, no, what if pursuing things that are going to be difficult and time consuming is actually going to be good for you and beneficial? What if those are not detractors from this, like, other thing that's more, quote, unquote, more important? And I think that it actually did take me deprioritizing work in order to even be able to notice that I was doing that because it was so subconscious that like value judgment.

A (46:17)

Yeah. That time away is so hard to take. And yet so essentially.

B (46:22)

So something I noticed on your site is that one of the most popular articles is a very vulnerable piece that you published last summer called Some Frank Thoughts on Money, Jealousy and Loneliness. Now I remember reading this when it came out and I remember being like, whoa, this is fucking honest. This is the Lindsay equivalent of like cocaine I didn't pay for in the bathroom and stuff like that. Writing like that does tend to work, quote, unquote, work Very well in women's media. But I know that you don't want the purse to be the Lindsay show. Can't relate to that feeling signed money with Katie. But do you ever feel that tug or that temptation to put yourself more or to put more of yourself into the material when you see pieces like that do so well?

A (47:16)

I think I put myself in there enough. Like, I think I give readers enough, and it's really funny. I'll see friends I haven't seen in a while, and they'll be like, I know how you're doing. I read your newsletter, and it's like, you read the newsletter, which is the little parts of my life I choose to share. Look, I'm a Brooklyn mom with one kid. I'm a nice white lady. Like, I'm not that interested. I'm not. And that's fine. And so diversity of storytelling has been so important to me. And I. I don't think we're there with the purse yet. But it's something that's, like, top of mind always is to make sure that we're telling lots of different stories from lots of different women, from lots of different backgrounds and incomes and experiences. And so, to a certain extent, you know, opening myself up and. And sharing the pros and cons and ups and downs of building this business have been a powerful way to build the business, frankly. So I share. I don't think I want to share more. I don't think people want to hear more. Like, there was somebody canceled their subscription, their paid subscription earlier this year, and it was a really long, slightly mean note that was like, oh, God, I'm tired of hearing from this writer about her experiences with her husband. And Alicia was like, does she know? Okay, just you. Like. It's just you. Like, you are. You are it. There is no writer. There is just Lindsay.

B (48:47)

Well, first of all, very brave of you to actually read those. I don't. I don't. When people. I'm like, I have all of those notifications turned off for diabolical lies. I'm like, I don't want to know why you're canceling. I don't want to know what it is you don't like about Meek. That's. Keep it. That is entirely your business.

A (49:03)

You know, it was painful. And obviously it's still painful. Cause I'm still thinking about it and telling it to you on, you know, your national podcast. But I also think that there was a good point there, which is like, again, it's not the Lindsay show. It's Supposed to be other people's stories.

B (49:18)

Well, cause you were an editor at Refinery, right?

A (49:20)

Yeah.

B (49:21)

So it's like you are, you're kind of still an editor.

A (49:23)

I'm definitely still an editor.

B (49:25)

You're still identifying the stories and curating and like it's your point of view that is shaping the end product. But it's not about you.

A (49:35)

It's not about me exactly.

B (49:38)

Something that's kind of interesting too is when you talk about diversity of stories. I immediately started thinking about how the incentives in corporate media kind of determine what stories get told. There's a lot of content out there for people who earn median wages or above. Like the voyeuristic content of like very wealthy people and then also the median wages that like will attract a wide audience just by nature of being close to the middle. But I remember there was an Esquire piece that got published sometime last year where it was a writer who had been homeless for a long time and he was writing about that experience and just this very poignant firsthand story. And after I finished it, it was so moving and it just stuck with me and I was like, I can't believe this is the first time I'm ever reading a firsthand account from somebody who doesn't have a house. Like, why is there are so many people who are unhoused in the United States? Like, why is this the first time I'm ever hearing from somebody like that in a major publication like this? I think that the same goes for stories that are firsthand about what it's like to live in poverty. I think that's why like books like Evicted are so powerful and feel so unique. Because it's like we just, we really don't hear from people who are living that close to the edge and speaking on, on their own behalf about what that feels, what that's like, what those trade offs are.

A (51:04)

Yeah, that they have agency and that it doesn't feel like poverty porn or something like that. That they're the ones who are telling their story and not somebody else. Yeah. It came up recently in the comment section of the Last Home act because it was another woman making over 100k and somebody was like, I'm really desperate for you to be telling stories from people who are earning less. And the truth is that I just don't have those entries. I would totally publish them if I had them. I just don't have them.

B (51:31)

There is some self fulfilling there where like if you're living paycheck to paycheck and barely scraping by like, you're not spending your free time on substack, like, reading.

A (51:39)

Yeah. You don't have the time. If you're, like, trying to figure out how to make ends meet, you don't have time to sit down and write a home economics entry. Like, I think that's an important thing to remember and think about.

B (51:50)

I bring up the incentives of kind of advertisers and demographics and all of that kind of stuff that goes into determining what a media company focuses on and what their priorities are and things of that nature, because I think that there is something unique in the subscription model that you have and that I guess I have in half of my business life.

A (52:15)

Yes.

B (52:15)

Where you don't.

A (52:17)

You.

B (52:17)

You actually are not accountable to those forces.

A (52:22)

No. I would also say that I think one of the problems that corporate media has faced is that there was so much emphasis on growth and just being as big as humanly possible. And at cnbc, we used to be focused on unique visitors. So, Kitty, we wanted you to show up and read a story today, but we didn't care if you showed up tomorrow. Like, don't come back, you know, until December. Then come back in December and read again. But that attitude meant that a lot of stories weren't being told because they were just trying to reach the widest possible audience. And I think that that's the joy, in some ways, of more fragmented media. There's definitely issues with it, but it allows me to really focus on the audience that I want, and it's going to be a smaller audience. And advertisers always get a little nervous when I'm like, it's niche. But you also know that they're going to be more engaged.

B (53:16)

Oh, yeah, for sure.

A (53:18)

Let's talk about you for a minute.

B (53:19)

Oh, okay.

A (53:20)

I want to ask you a question.

B (53:22)

Okay.

A (53:23)

I just want to know how you're feeling about everything. It's your second to last episode. It's so exciting. But it also must be scary.

B (53:29)

Yeah.

A (53:29)

To put you on the spot.

B (53:31)

Yeah, it is scary. And I think what's interesting about it is, like, I feel like it's kind of unfolding on two levels where, like, consciously, I feel like I've done everything I can to prepare.

A (53:43)

Right.

B (53:44)

I have really worked hard this year to get all the pieces in place for a seamless transition. So I've kind of been joking that, like, the second half of this year, after the book came out, it was like, okay, now that that's done, time to transition to, like, doing double duty, basically trying to build up the independent side in the back end. I mean, like, I need an accountant now. I needed a business manager. There were so many things that had to happen once that decision was made. And I kind of realized I don't want to wait until January to start any of that, because that's going to make me feel so stressed. Like, I would rather have all that set up ahead of time. I'll front load all the stress. So I feel like I've done everything that I can, and yet at the same time, there is so much uncertainty. And at this point, it's less uncertainty about, like, is it going to work? That part doesn't really feel risky. But I think what feels risky is the fact that, like, I don't know how it's gonna feel. And I think for so long, I've kind of promised myself that it's gonna feel so much better. You're gonna be in control. All the things that you haven't liked about the last four years, you're gonna be able to fix, and things are gonna be great. And I think finally being faced with the opportunity to test that thesis is a little bit terrifying. Cause it's like, well, what if it's wrong? What if the things that make me unhappy are still there? What if the things I don't like are still there? What if I've built this up in my head that it's going to be this grand adventure, and then it's just not? And what would that have meant about this decision and the last? I don't know. Honestly, I've been kind of dreaming of being an independent entrepreneur since I signed the contract to sell the business. So I've kind of had that in the back of my mind the entire time. And there is a little bit of a existential fear.

A (55:27)

It makes total sense.

B (55:28)

I think. In general, though, I feel optimistic. I feel good. I feel ready to, like, make some bigger swings and just kind of stop putting off the things that I've told myself I want to do. So I don't know. 2026 could be a big year for me. I might change everything about myself. We'll see.

A (55:44)

I'm excited. I'm really excited for you.

B (55:47)

Well, thank you. And thank you for asking.

A (55:49)

As an outside observer, I'm very proud of you. It's been very exciting to see your trajectory.

B (55:54)

Oh, thank you.

A (55:55)

I know that you'll do big things. I worry about a lot of stuff, but not you, Lindsay.

B (56:00)

Oh, thank you.

A (56:02)

It means a lot to me. Part of your origin story.

B (56:06)

Oh, my God.

A (56:06)

I really like it's super cheesy, but it's one of the reasons why I do the work I do is really to help women. And you know, we were talking about it not being the Lindsay show, like, this is why, like, I want to see you go out and succeed. That's thrilling to me. That's the whole point.

B (56:24)

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And yeah, the ripple effect of your work, your interests, your point of view, I mean, living proof of it. So thank you for joining me today for my penultimate episode.

A (56:38)

Thank you so much.

B (56:56)

That is all this week for the Money with Katie show and for the last time. I'll see you next week. Our show is a production of Morning Brew and this episode was produced by me, Katie Gaditasan with audio engineering and sound design from Nick Torres. Devon Emery is president of Morning Brewing Brew.