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The Monocle Daily
Britain goes all out for Trump, the EU’s Israel tariffs and drone skills for children
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You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 17th September 2025 on Monocle Radio.
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How do you organise a state visit so the visitor doesn't see the state? The stampede for the exit of Israel's allies accelerates. And other than on the Monocle Daily, obviously, has everyone forgotten how to discuss stuff? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts now.
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C
Foreign.
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Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Nina dos Santos and Simon Brook will discuss today's big stories. And our on this day historical series will recall the beginning of the career of history's most famous fighter ace. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Nina dos Santos, international broadcast correspondent and former CNN Europe editor, and by Simon Brook, freelance journalist and communications consultant. Hello to you both. Hello, Simon. First of all, you can pick up some of the discourse we did during last strike plagued week here in London. There was much talk about the increasing take up in higher bike, specifically the electric ones or electric assisted ones known as lime bikes. And the consensus among our extremely sensible guests was that this had not been altogether a boon, especially if you were trying to be a pedestrian.
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C
Now, apparently there was a 55% increase in usage of these rental bikes. And yeah, I can completely understand, I have to say I was watching the news and you could see some people who clearly had not ridden the bike since they were kids and it was really, it was fun to watch but slightly scary as well. Yeah, I'm sort of slightly torn on this really. I really believe that we need to get more people cycling and I think these rental bikes have been really useful for that. On the other hand, I, like a lot of people are really concerned about the fact they're cluttering up the pavements. So this week, in between my busy life as a journalist, I have been talking to neighbors to see how we can do something to clear them off the pavement in a way so that we still get the bikes if we want to use them to cycle around locally, but we're not walking into them. And this is a real problem for one of my neighbours, for instance, instance who's partially sighted.
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B
So have you considered scooping them all up in a big truck and throwing them in the river?
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C
Andrew, that's not the point. You know, we do need people to use these bikes, you know, because it's healthy, it's clean, you know, it's quiet. It's a good thing. It's just. Yeah. I suppose the problem is, as so often the technology is great. It's perhaps the users that aren't so good.
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B
Well, indeed, Nina. I'm trying to think of a seamless link. I know. Here it is. Do they have these in Newcastle?
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I haven't been up there for about 20 years, up until I went for a family event. Sad one funeral. But hey, my uncle was 88, so he's now off on his bike up, up, up in heaven and bless him. But I would say that it was amazing. I was by the seaside near Tynemouth, which is, you know, the seaside end of Newcastle and quite a nice place it is and they've put cycle lanes absolutely everywhere and it's looks fantastic. You see all of these people. Okay. They don't have lime bikes as many there. Let's face it, it's a much smaller city but, you know, you can really see people reclaiming their streets, reclaiming their ocean fronts in a way that I remember when I was a kid and used to spend many a summer there, bracing myself against the August climate on the North Sea. Nobody was outside doing cycling and running and stuff like that because they hadn't put in the infrastructure. So infrastructure is key.
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But the reason I wanted to ask you about Newcast Nina, and with due condolences for your reasons for being there and without wishing to get to other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? I think it is a much undervalued English city, Newcastle.
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A
Well, I'd say that of course, because my mother is from there and if anybody has a northern mother, Geordie, you will know that they are small people with big hearts and huge personalities. And I was just amazed at how much investment had gone in there since the last time I'd been there. And it was great to see thriving northern cities that are very proud, you know, and have young populations as well. Lots of people have been moving up from other parts of the south for the cost of living crisis. You know, they want more space for their families, different job opportunities, different work, life balance. And since the pandemic, places like Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield and also Manchester have really benefited from that. So we've got some renewed northern confidence in this country. Couldn't say the same for London though.
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B
Well, we will start in the United Kingdom, which is currently hosting the second state visit by US President Donald Trump. And it can be safely assessed, the second best state visit by US President Donald Trump. His ride in a fancy gold cart earlier today was confined to the grounds of Windsor Castle in recognition of the possibility that the British public would be less likely to wave the Stars and Stripes than execute the gesture in which a clenched fist is jerked vigorously up and down and a fly passed by. F35 of the US Air Force and Royal Air Force was cancelled due to somewhat cloudy conditions, or at least that was their excuse. Simon, how have you been celebrating?
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C
Yes. Champagne corks have been popping. Well, not really, but I have been watching with interest, I think, mainly because there's so much riding on this, on this state visit. It is, as you say, very unusual that it's the second that's happened. Obviously it's happening in Windsor partly for security reasons and reduces the chance of demonstrations, overshadowing the whole thing, really. It's about investment to a large extent. Already we've seen this commitment by Microsoft to spend billions up in the next four years to AI infrastructure in Britain. Nvidia, Google and OpenAI have also made commitments as well. There's also questions about Ukraine trying to knit Trump more securely into NATO and Europe with Ukraine, isn't it? And obviously interesting that just recently, just this week, actually, I think it was Trump called Russia the aggressor, which was very encouraging to NATO and to Europe. And also there's a question about whether he will hit Moscow with further sanctions as well. On the other hand, he's also blamed Joe Biden for the whole war as well. So that is certainly one of the things that the Starmer administration will be looking to achieve. And I won't mention Jeffrey Epstein. Well, shall I mention you people have been occasionally. So he is the ghost, isn't he, at the banquet, really, and is indeed Peter Mandelson, of course, who we've seen this week was a great mate of Jeffrey Epstein. Both Trump and Starmer will obviously be not wanting to mention Epstein, but it'll be interesting to see post this visit what happens on that score.
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I mean, it is hard to avoid missing that slightly unfortunate compare contrast. Nina, first of all, we're sacking you from being ambassador to the United States for being a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. You say to one friend of Jeffrey Epstein and then you say to the other friend of Jeffrey Epstein, here's the king. But I do understand that, you know, you can't really.
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Brother was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein.
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Well, indeed. So. So everyone's got plenty to talk about. But, but if we look at, if we look at the dog and pony show that's been put on today, At Windsor Castle. Nina, does everyone understand now that this is the how to appease Donald Trump playbook? You, you sort of wheel out a king or whatever you've got in that department, put on a parade, lots of gold stuff, big banquet, et cetera.
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Yeah, more or less. And by the way, not to dwell on the subject, the ghost of Jeffrey Epstein was also projected onto the castle, on the castle, wasn't it? So there was no escaping that vision either. Obviously, Keir Starmer's in a really difficult predicament here, isn't he? Because he's from obviously the opposite end of the political spectrum, but he's in a real bind because if he can't generate growth in this moribund economy in the UK and rely upon the economy, economy that is going gangbusters at the moment, which is America, to try and help him do that, well, he could well lose the next election to Nigel, far out of Reform, the right wing party, who's a great mate of Donald Trump's and possibly could that could end up leading the UK into a situation where it's a vassal state of the United States basically, rather than a bridge to Europe.
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B
Although by 2029 that could mean Prime Minister Nigel Farage dealing with President Ocasio Cortez.
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We don't know. But I suppose the point I'm is that he's in a difficult bind, isn't he, the Prime Minister here? Because what he has to do is beg for any economic scraps. That's basically what this is all about. And he knows that the pomp and pageantry is something that flatters Donald Trump's ego. The reality is, is that once they've got out of the way with all of the state banquet this evening, there's going to be trade deals that will be discussed at Chequers tomorrow. And that's really where the nitty gritty will happen. As you mentioned before, Simon, there are trade deals with some big technology part. But the big question here in the UK is what exactly will the British government have to surrender to those tech bros who've come in tow with Donald Trump? They might have to surrender a particular digital services tax that raises about 900 billion pounds for the British economy. That's going to be difficult for the British people to swallow politically just before a budget when taxes are going to go up. So Keir Starmer's got a really difficult balancing act to sell whatever the economic trade off is that comes out of this particular state visit. And we know, we can see from protests on the street that British People don't like Donald Trump and they don't like his tech bros either.
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Indeed not just finally on this one, Simon, do we yet perceive though any signs of long term rethinking of the UK's attitude towards the United States? Or do we more see everybody frantically hoping once again this won't last forever? We just need to grit our teeth for three and a half more years and then hopefully things will go back to normal.
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C
I don't think they will go back to normal. If you look at the polling in the United States, the Democrats, even though Donald Trump has some pretty submarine polling, it's actually worse for the Democrats and we've seen how they've been really struggling to form any kind of effective opposition. I mean, obviously they're always at a slight disadvantage in the US because unlike European countries, they don't have an official leader of the opposition. So Chuck Schumer is de facto leading the Democrats, but many people would say that he's struggling to articulate a Democrat message. And as I say, that polling is even worse amongst many voters for the Democrats than it is for the Republicans. So you talk about a President Ocasio Cortez. I think it could very possibly be a President Vance after this. So, no, I think the short answer is, you know, we need to prepare for the fact that this is the way it's going to be and certainly for the rest of the time of Donald Trump's time in office, one thing we do know is that there will be very little stability. He will change his mind from day to day. He will say one thing, one minute, and then investors, governments, regulators, whoever around the world will be struggling to react. So, yeah, sorry to be gloomy about it, but it's going to be an interesting and probably quite bumpy three and a half years.
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Well, to Israel now, which as the second anniversary of October 7, 2023 looms, is rather struggling to keep its traditional allies behind it. As the Israel Defense Forces continue their ground offensive to seize and occupy what remains of Gaza City, EU High Representative Kaia Kallas has announced a downgrading of EU trade t with Israel and sanctions against two of the more strident members of Israel's government, Security Minister Itamar Ben GVIR and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. The proposals do fall short of what some EU members want. Even so, it remains unclear whether Germany for one, will go along with even this. Nina, what has actually changed because most of the European Union started at a position of October 7, 2023, of very much you know, shoulder to shoulder, et cetera, et cetera. Israel has every right to defend itself and so forth. Not so much now.
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No, absolutely not. If you look at the positions that Pedro Sanchez of Spain has been taking recently, they're very, very, very negative on Israel's offensive on Gaza. And Ireland as well has its own pro Palestine stance that puts it very much at odds with Benjamin Netanyahu's government. The problem here for Kaia Kallas is that you'd get the 27 member states to be on the same page about this. And interestingly enough, if you look at sort of the war in Ukraine, yes, they're on the same page. But when it comes to the other big conflict in the world, the offensive in Gaza that Israel is prosecuting, they're not all on the same page. As you pointed out before, Germany has sort of rode back a bit on its staunch support for Israel, but it's going to be quite difficult to see them actually imposing something like 5.8 billion worth worth of euros of sanctions on goods worth that amount if Europe's biggest economy doesn't back them on this.
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B
Well, indeed not. And on the subject of Germany's reluctance here, Simon, and the historical reasons for that are well understood. Is it possible that this, even this platform of EU sanctions has been kind of designed to fail, the understanding being. Well, we had all these ideas about what we wanted to do, but the Germans wouldn't go along with it. But we tried.
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C
I think there could be. Yeah, exactly. Could be a strong element of that. At least you're registering some kind of complaint with the Netanyahu government. So you're making that clear. But of course, the problem for Europe, I mean, this isn't a huge amount of money. I mean, it's big for Israel because the EU is Israel's number one trading partner, accounting for about a third of its trading goods. But the other way around, it's not huge. Even having said that, obviously Europe, given the troubles that the European economy is facing, they can't afford alienate anybody economically, so it would be difficult. I think the bigger problem for Europe is, and as you were saying, Nina, getting this qualified majority voting is it just gives another example, and perhaps President Putin, perhaps Putin's watching this as well, of how Europe is clear on what it wants. But when it comes to the business of getting positive action, coalescing around a strategy, actually delivering, then it all falls apart because different states have different priorities, different political aims and things. And so, you know, it almost certainly won't happen at all. But as I say, I think really what they're trying to do is register something. I think the other thing, of course most governments in Europe will be looking at their own electorates and what we've seen as a result of Israel's action in Gaza is the way that this has affected, you could even say polluted political discourse across the world. You know, that so many people are so angry about what is happening and they feel that their governments are not doing enough here. You know, it will have, certainly have an impact on the politics of the eu, if not the economics.
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You mentioned Pedro Sanchez Nina, the Spanish Prime Minister, who as you said, is taking a harder line on this than most and he is either conducting or calling for actions that can be taken outside, you know, the EU rubric. Spain has announced that it is joining countries such as Slovenia, Ireland and the Netherlands are saying it won't turn up for Eurovision next year if Israel are still invited. And that's a pretty big deal because Spain's one of the so called Big five. It's a big contributor to the, to the actual event and it's one of those countries that doesn't have to put itself through the indignity of semi finals to get there as a consequence. But he's also calling for Israel to be banned from international sport, the World cup, the Olympics and so forth. Do you see that gathering steam as an argument?
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Perhaps some of those elements, because obviously they're poten, they're cultural and sporting events. But again, you'd have to get a bigger sort of consensus than even the EU and getting sporting bodies to agree on anything. I mean, as we've seen, you know, with this Ferrari at times when Russian athletes have been banned from participating in major events and perhaps either.
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Well, that's the comparison obviously, and it's a hard thing to count. It's a hard argument to counter. Well, if we've bounced Russia, then why are we not bouncing Israel?
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I just think that what matters to change the dynamic is obviously, you know, the big players in the room like the United States and countries like Spain and other EU officials like Kaya Kallas can quite rightfully come up with these initiatives. They can raise them. But the problem, each time you raise one of these suggestions and you don't follow through, you're not able to carry the motion. The problem is, as we've seen with the condemnation that the United nations has repeatedly voiced over the last few months and days and recently with its commission, is that that if these cries become louder and there is no action because obviously the main determinant is the United States relationship with Israel. And it seems as though even Donald Trump isn't able to leverage that much under Netanyahu's government at the moment. I just don't know how much any of these calls will make in terms of a difference. And having said that, I don't know which strategy these countries really should employ that would make a big, big enough difference to change the dial. But as Simon was just saying before, they've got their own electorates to take into account. They've got their own, in Pedro Sanchez's situation, left wing electorates that are very often more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. And so inside Europe, depending on which government and which political makeup it is and which country it is, you've got all sorts of different permutations about levels of support for the Palestinian cause and wish to condemn the actions that Israel is taking in Gaza.
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B
Well, to Lithuania now, which has spent the last three and a half years thinking seriously about defence as befits a country with a population about a third that of London, wedged in between Belarus, the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad and bordered by the Suwalki Gap, the chokepoint that keeps NATO's strategic planners awake nights. Lithuania's latest initiative in this realm is the establishment of a network of schools to teach citizens, including children aged 10 and upwards, to build, program and fly drones. At least two Russian drones drones have crashed in Lithuania within the last couple of months. Simon, I rather suspect that the kids will probably be top of the class here, so they will be incredibly enthusiastic about this. How enthusiastic should we be about 10 year olds being instructed in a field which is going to have fairly obvious military applications?
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C
It's really weird, this story. I have to say I was slightly reminded of the way some children in schools in some cities in the United States are taught to, to jump, to fall down and get underneath a desk in a certain situation. It's, you know, because there could be a shooter in the school. I mean, it's terrifying, isn't it, really? They should do this. I suppose if you're trying to put a positive view on it, then you could say it's interesting the way the move towards militarism and developing the military economy is boosting the economy of Europe. So perhaps, obviously these kids will learn something useful in terms of aeronautics, engineering and whatever. As you say, Andrew, they're probably gonna be the brightest in the class. So it's probably a good thing in that way. Perhaps it's also a good thing that question of do you have to talk to children about the threat they face. I mean, we talk to children about the effect of climate change, we warn them, stranger danger, things like that. Do we now? Well, the Lithuanians, Ukraine, obviously it's different for Ukrainian cause it's happening. But Ukrainians, the polls most recently, do they have to have these conversations with their kids to explain this is what might happen? So how will you have that convers to illustrate the risk, the threat? This is what we're doing about it without giving them nightmares is really, really difficult. I don't know quite how you do it, but yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it develops.
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B
Put that way, Nina, is this maybe more analogous to scouting? You're getting kids involved earlier, you're teaching them practical survival skills.
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A
Well, so these are countries, the Baltic countries that emerged in very living memory.
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B
Re. Emerged. They would be re.
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A
Emerged, yes. Excuse me. I just mean emerged from the Soviet in living memory. So their parents will know what's at stake here. And I've been to Lithuania on multiple occasions and filmed with civil protection units with the army around the border with Kaliningrad. And when you get there, this typical in some of the Baltic countries as well, day in, day out, there are these drills, you know, to get on people's mobile phones where you'll get these messages saying, you know, be alert, something's happened just to keep the population engaged and the population are very engaged. I think what's interesting about this particular story is a, as Simon's pointing out, it's children. So essentially what you're doing here is you're getting the next generation ready for being fighting adults with the fighting mentality and in a responsible way. But also the other thing is this is quite similar to the first person drone techniques that Russia is employing upon Ukraine. You speak to Ukrainians and they say our children are being targeted in the streets by these first person drones that are being flown by sort of gaming addicts in a Moscow apartment. And I think this is typical, sadly, of the kind of warfare that we're facing on the eastern flank of Europe, where to make sure that your population is fighting ready, you have to employ the tactics that we're seeing being deployed by Russia in a hot war in Ukraine, by people who are sitting, as I said, in the comfort of a Moscow apartment. Obviously they have to do that in a responsible way. And having filmed with the Lithuanians, I'm sure that they probably, probably very well would.
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B
But just finally follow that up, Nina. Finally on this one. That idea though, you can see what this is building towards. I remember talking to an expert in this field in Ukraine a few months ago who was talking about the astonishing speed at which drone technology is developing. He said entire generations occurring in weeks, not even months. But it would be a formidable deterrent a few years down the track. Even if you are Russia and you are thinking about taking a pop at a small country like Lithuania, if you think every single house in that country has dozens and dozens of drones in the attic and just ready to let them fly.
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A
Okay, so let's have a look at, for instance, Switzerland that formidably spends, you know, on having fighter jets and bunkers and mountains. And for years and years, as long as I've been alive, everybody's always said, well, nobody's invaded Switzerland because, you know, apart from their neutrality, they invest heavily in military and hidden military, and everybody's very well trained in case the country were to be invaded. Well, the Baltics here, they can do this on the cheap. Now, you don't need fighter jets inside mountains, you need drones. And so, you know, today's asymmetric warfare shows us that you gotta get clever. And even if the technology is cheap and you get your youngsters learning how to use it, lots of these drones essentially function using one functions a bit like a video game as far as a child is concerned. So, yeah, you know, the Baltics, obviously, they're red hot on these things because right on the border and it's sort.
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C
Of devolving down, isn't it? We think of defense as being tanks and battleships and stuff, but as you say now, it's almost like anyone can do it. I mean, it's a bit like business and industry itself, isn't it? So more, you know, gig workers or whatever. You've almost got gig soldiers in this way, haven't you? Doing their own thing.
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A
Yeah. And you don't need as much training, do you? Because obviously if you're operating a fighter jet or a tank, it's a huge job and it's a huge investment for a company country. But it's. But it's cheaper if you can teach kids who probably, let's face it, I've got two sons. Kids like flying things.
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C
You could do wedding videos. And then you could switch to this really grim scenario.
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B
Well, to the United States, where the ongoing and by and large, unenlightening discourse attending last week's assassination of conservative podcaster Charlie Kirk has included an amount of hand wringing at the decline of civil discussion. Kirk's apologists insist that this is precisely the Cause to which Kirk was nobly pled. Others are less convinced that travelling the country, winding up gormless college kids for TikTok clout makes you Socrates. Among those rending their garments over the demise of dialectic is Bret Stephens of the New York Times, who agonises in a current column that his fellow citizens have been pushed into personalised bubbles of ideology and information. I suppose I could put this proposition to the guests, but who cares what they think? Alright then, Simon, what do you actually think? Are we still capable as a species of having civil discussion of complex and controversial issues or not?
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C
I think we are, but perhaps we're just. And again, this isn't a new observation, but perhaps things like social media just making it easier to be confrontational, not sort of dig into the other person's argument. I was talking a couple of weeks ago to a professor of politics at a university here in the UK, and he was saying that his students struggle to see both sides of an argument. And he has to explain that on the one hand, on the other hand. So he encourages them to see a film called Rashomon by the celebrated Japanese director Akira Karasawa. And this is an interesting film because very briefly, it describes how a samurai soldier has been murdered in a forest, and the various people are interviewed as witnesses to their crime. And what's interesting is each of them comes up with a different idea. So this professor gets his students to watch this film so that they can see different points of view and how people might have a different perception of reality. So I think it has to be. We have to learn to do this again. I think the other thing that's quite interesting here is that I have, in the last few years have been practicing mindfulness. And one of the things I found is it does help me. I sound terribly virtuous here, but it does help me to put myself in another person's shoes. You know, I think somebody who's arguing passionately against something I believe in. But then it's quite interesting, as a thought experiment, to say, all right, let's flip over, let's look at it from their point of view and see where they, you know, see where they're coming from. Don't always agree, but it is an interesting exercise.
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B
Slight counterpoint, Nina. And it is an argument articulated very well in a book called Escape by a regular guest on this show, Mari leconte, who kind of makes the point that the reason social media, or a reason that social media has sent everybody around the bend, is not, as Bret Stephen says, because everyone's now isolated in bubbles. They've constructed themselves. It's precisely the opposite. It's that we're not. We used to live in bubbles because by and large, people work with and socialize with people with similar values and similar opinions. Whereas now, if you're online, you're confronted all day with people you can't stand, spouting things you don't agree with. We're not conditioned to that. We would not seek that out in real life. Like, if I want to spend. To spend an evening in a social environment, I would not choose a bar I knew to be full of obnoxious jerks. Whereas social media, that's pretty much all you get.
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A
I've got two sons and a Mediterranean born husband. You know, dinner table conversations sound like an argument half of the time, in the sense that people get quite passionate about any point they make in person. I think that we have, of course, had quite a significant coarsening of the debate because of social media, because it gives people the cloak of anonymity and only 120 characters. And people often have a completely different set of manners in person to what they have online. And that's obviously quite a difficult issue at the moment in the uk, because as we've got Donald Trump's visit here, he's brought a whole bunch of people in tow with him who think that the uk, it seems they believe the UK is a country that doesn't have any free speech because we've had people prosecuted over what they've said on Twitter in arguments. They've been trying to.
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B
Yeah, and these are the same people who are literally now conducting a campaign to get people sacked for not being appropriately solemn about the death of Charlie Kirk.
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A
Well, this is one of the things that has energised the commentariat in America. Two people have lost their jobs.
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B
One, dozens of people have lost their jobs. Among the commentariat.
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A
Yes, yes, it's true, in the last last couple of days. But among the commentariat, we've had a Washington Post columnist fired for what she said, again on social media. So again, the nuance there is important. And also, just to mention another example at msnbc, there was a legal analyst who was very quickly dismissed for some of the comments he made. Look, the reality is it's utterly tragic when anybody loses their life for making their point of view publicly In a Western democracy, we absolutely cannot lose the right to debate civilly and have. Whether you want to call it an argument or a nuanced discussion publicly. But the polarization that Social media is causing is making it a very, very dangerous thing to do. And look, the reality is all of us are quite nervous about saying anything that might be, you know, misunderstood or misconstrued on social media. Because even if you write something that's totally impartial, you'll still face abuse on social just by virtue of being a journalist. Because, you know, journalists sometimes aren't viewed very positively in some parts of the world. So I don't think we're losing our ability to argue. I think we are arguing more than discussing, let's put it that way. And that I do think social media is making it worse is the thing.
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B
That social media though, and this is, I think the forum that people are getting at and I think it's a common problem among people who spend too much time on social media, as most journalists do, to forget that they. That's not probably the real world. But people on social media, by and large, Simon, is my contention, are not really interested in discussing or even arguing what they're doing is performing.
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C
Yeah, it's not really a two way conversation, is it? I mean you might, some of these people might look at the comments they get, but it's only to get fired up by those comments and find an excuse to have an argument for it. I was just thinking, is there a way of creating some kind of, whether it will be X Blue Sky, Telegram or whatever. Could you create a technology and also a kind of philosophy, an atmosphere within that technology which actually somehow encouraged people to posit something and then have a positive debate rather than the kind of ping pong of increasingly offensive comments, as you say, Nina, is there some way in which you could have the best of both worlds? So we are still exposed to people who don't, as Marie LeCompte would argue, who don't agree with what we, we say, but it would somehow encourage us algorithms would it be that would encourage us to actually to have a positive debate, learn something and add to that debate rather than just smacking it back in the faces of our opponents for.
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A
The sake of debate. I would just say though, the problem is that the economics of outrage is what funds social media companies. Right. And keeps us engaged. And that is why we spend a lot more time, we're being encouraged to spend a lot more time economically, publicly arguing rather than people disagree with us.
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C
Exactly.
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B
Nina Dos Santos and Simon Brooke, you will have to continue this unruly brawl in the street outside. Thank you for the moment for joining us. Finally, on today's show, on this day, historical feature recalls the inauguration of an enduring military legend. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more.
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C
The playwright Barrett was run out the scope.
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B
Novelty pop songs are not generally beholden to strict standards of academic rigor. But in fairness to the Royal guardsmen whose Snoopy versus the Red Baron was a global chart topper in 1966, their assessment of the career of Captain Manfred von Richthofen of the German air combat forces of World War I was actually pretty accurate. Richtofen, vastly better remembered as the Red Baron, is indeed officially credited with downing 80 allied aircraft over the Western Front. The first on this day 109 years ago. Richthofen is not the most prolific fighter ace of all time. He is outstripped by Sergeant Major Ilmari Jutilainen of the World War II Finnish Air Force and Colonel Erich Hartmann of the World War II Luftwaffe. The latter shot down an astonishing three hundred and fifty two Allied aircraft and after ten post war years in Soviet prison camps joined the West German Air Force with which he served until 1970. But Richthofen remains the most famous fighter pilot and indeed the popular benchmark for what a fighter pilot is. Warrior and showman, both admirable and insufferable, the Red Baron was possibly even even the subject of the first telling of a joke, still much beloved among more lowly branches of military service. How do you know when someone is a fighter pilot? They'll tell you. On September 17, 1916, Richthofen had been a fighter pilot only a few months, but at this early stage of aerial combat few had any greater experience. Richthofen had ridden to the front as a cavalry officer, but the trenches and bogs of France and Flanders had reduced his unit of dashing horsemen to mere messengers and foragers. Legend insists that in his application for a transfer to the primordial German air force, Richthofen had harrumphed. I have not gone to war in order to collect cheese and egg. On September 17, 1916, Richthofen was flying an Albatross D2, a single seat, single engine biplane. Though clearly not short on self confidence, fighter pilots then, as now rarely are, he had not yet begun painting his personal aircraft in the bold scarlet which would inspire his nickname. In an encounter between Richthofen's squadron, Jasta Zwei and 11 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps over Cambrai, Richthofen focused the Albatross machine guns on British FE2B, a lumbering, flimsy two man biplane with a rear mounted propeller. Sound effects there from Roger Corman's not tremendously good 1971 film the Red Baron, one of surprisingly few cinematic or televisual treatments of a grand swashbuckling drama that you'd reckon would pretty much write itself. There was at least another novelty pop song, the Royal Guardsmen wondering if they could ring another hit from the same conceit. You remember that Baron flying high in the sky when Snoopy shot him down with a gleam in his eye. But the German hat leaped from his also top 20 on Billboard. In fairness, Richtofen's first aerial victory was fatal for both British officers aboard the FE2. The pilot, 2nd Lt. Lionel Morris, died later that day in a prisoner of war hospital. The observer, Captain Tom Rees, was dead before the plane hit the ground and was buried with full military honors by Richthofen and his comrades. Richtofen commissioned a silver cup engraved with the date and the type of aircraft he'd brought down. He filled his shelves with another 60 or so until wartime shortages brought a halt to the the tradition. A halt was brought to Richtofen himself on April 21, 1918, when his trademark red Fokker Dr.1 triplane crashed near Valsercon. Dispute continues over who deserves the credit. Richtofen was chasing A Canadian pilot, Lt. Wilfred May, serving with the recently renamed Royal Air Force, when another Canadian RAF pilot, Lieutenant Roy Brown, intervened. Australia Australia insists, however, that its anti aircraft machine gunners on the ground fired the decisive shots. There are subsidiary arguments over precisely which Australian.
- [37:59]
A
Was it 24 year old Gunner Robert Buey, a fisherman from the central coast.
- [38:05]
B
Of New South Wales?
- [38:09]
A
Or was it Sergeant Cedric Popkin, a.
- [38:12]
B
27 year old carpenter from the Tweed.
- [38:15]
A
On the Queensland New South Wales border?
- [38:17]
B
It was certainly slouch hatted soldiers of the Australian Imperial Force who fired the salute over Richthofen's grave. The title of fighter ace has been traditionally awarded to fighter pilots with five or more confirmed aerial kills. It has been bestowed decreasingly, frequently as close quarters. Aerial dogfighting has been rendered substantially redundant and or impossible by technology. But at least one fighter ace was airborne as recently as 1997 as a civilian pilot with El Al Brigadier General Giora Epstein of the Israeli Air Force who shot down 16 Egyptian jets and one helicopter between the Six Day War of 1967 and the Yom Kippur War of 1973. He died earlier this year. It's not just that there may be no more fighter aces. It would seem vaguely risible, for example, for the honour to be accorded pilots who have recently shot down however many drones over the Middle East. There may not be that many more fighter pilots if it turns out that those drones can do the same work better, cheaper. And that's all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Nina dos Santos and Simon Brook. Today's show was produced by Carlotta Rebelo and researched by Daniela Brau Smith. Our sound engineer was Steph Chungu. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.