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- [00:00]
Georgina Godwin
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 16th February 2026 on Monocle Radio.
- [00:08]
Host/Interviewer
Today we'll be looking at Donald Trump's Board of Peace, which meets for the first time on Thursday. Hungary is one of only two full EU members that's agreed to join the board. And it seems like Viktor Orban is already being rewarded for his loyalty as the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio dropped in to see him. And after the death of a far right activist in France, we'll be examining how governments control when the public takes to the streets. I'm Georgina Godwin. The Monocle Daily starts now. Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily, coming to you live from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Georgina Godwin. My guests today, Rainbow Murray and Chris Phillips, will discuss the day's big stories, including recreation, construction in Gaza, whether our fate is really written in the stars. And we'll hear from the designer of the Olympic torch in Milan. Do stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. Hello, hello and welcome and huge welcome to Chris Phillips, who's joining us on this program for the very first time. Chris is a professor of international relations and Author of Battleground 10 Conflicts that Explain the Middle East. And quite by accident, we've also booked his colleague Rainbow Murray, who is a Queen Mary University, I should say professor of politics. So we have a professor of politics and a professor of international relations. How much crossover actually is there between those two?
- [01:54]
Chris Phillips
Well, we're in the same department in the same school. We are not quite the same corridor. We're around the corner from one another, but there's a fair amount of discussions about various issues in those corridors.
- [02:04]
Host/Interviewer
And do you teach the same students?
- [02:06]
Georgina Godwin
We do. We don't teach them the same subjects, but people take a degree in politics and international relations. There's a lot of overlap. So ultimately we are both scholars of power. Just some of us look at the power, how it's organised within a national context and others within an international context.
- [02:24]
Host/Interviewer
And what have you been doing recently in terms of that kind of work?
- [02:28]
Georgina Godwin
Well, I'm very lucky. At the moment I'm on research leave. I got a grant to work on a big project. So I'm looking at the representation of men in politics very much enjoying.
- [02:38]
Host/Interviewer
Wow. And are you also taking that time to watch the Olympics?
- [02:42]
Georgina Godwin
Ah, yes. People have heard me on the show before, might remember. I watch Olympics very, very slowly and watch as many events as possible. So I'm now enjoying the Winter Olympics. But because work is quite busy, I'm only getting to watch it for quite a short amount of time each day. So I'm probably going to carry on watching the Winter Olympics well into the summer and beyond.
- [03:05]
Host/Interviewer
So we shouldn't tell you the results.
- [03:07]
Georgina Godwin
Please don't. As far as I'm concerned, it's still the 7th of February.
- [03:12]
Host/Interviewer
Chris, back to you. So your book is called battleground 10 conflicts that explain the Middle East. Absolutely fascinating. And that, of course, is your main area of study.
- [03:21]
Chris Phillips
Yeah, I mean, I initially got into international relations of the Middle east, looking at the civil war in Syria where I used to live before the war there broke out. And I was particularly interested, like Rainbow says, in power and the role of outside actors in that conflict. And as my research sort of developed, I realized that exactly what was happening in Syria was also happening in multiple arenas across the Middle East. Places like Libya, Yemen, Palestine most famously more recently, but also Iraq, Egypt, Kurdistan. And so my latest book kind of combines those together to act as a bit of an introduction to the international relations of the Middle east for non experts.
- [03:59]
Host/Interviewer
Well, of course, we're seeing people acting outside of their official sphere of influence right now. So the Trump administration, so called Board of Peace, holds its first meeting this week. Chris, what is it actually meant to do and how seriously should we take it?
- [04:15]
Chris Phillips
Well, what is it meant to do is a big question. Theoretically, it's meant to be. Well, it was set up initially to oversee Trump's 20 point peace plan that came about when there was a ceasefire in Gaza in October of last year. But it seems that Trump has got broader ambitions for it and is now talking about it being almost an alternative to the United nations to have within its remit bringing about peace, whatever quite that means, wherever it's needed in conflicts elsewhere in the globe. It's quite questionable exactly how they intend to do this. It's not really a rival to the United Nations. It doesn't have any kind of infrastructure, any kind of administrative bodies that could possibly implement anything like what the UN does. But clearly this is part of Donald Trump's broader agenda to position himself at the center of global politics and to undermine existing international structures like the U.N.
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Host/Interviewer
I mean, rainbow Trump has made himself chairman for life, only he has a veto. What does that tell us about how the body's meant to function? I mean, does it affect the credibility of the Board of Peace internationally?
- [05:28]
Georgina Godwin
Yes, this is very much Trump's vanity project. He wants to put his stamp on the world and he wants to have total power and total control. And that is one of the concerns, the fact that he would continue to be the chair of this organization even when he is no longer present President of the United States, which means that it is not a USA led organization, it is a Trump led organization. And he has considerable power. He has the power to decide who's in and who's out. And it would take a 2/3 majority to override him, which is unlikely because he's cherry picked a bunch of his pals to be on this board of peace. So this is his way of trying to exert a level of influence that isn't possible in genuine international organizations such as the un, where the USA does not have a preponderant voice and where other parties are there on equal terms. And where of course, Trump would only be involved to the extent that he is the president of the country rather than an individual personal capacity.
- [06:30]
Host/Interviewer
I mean, Chris, Trump's pledged $5 billion through this to Gaza. This is for reconstruction. What does reconstruction on that scale involve? I mean, it's huge.
- [06:42]
Chris Phillips
Ridiculous as it may sound, 5 billion is actually just a drop in the ocean. I mean, the UN has estimated it's going to cost at least 70 billion to reconstruct Gaza to anything close to where it was before the war. And 5 billion has been pledged by members of this board. It hasn't actually been delivered yet. And there's quite a big difference between pledging something and actually delivering it at this moment in time. You know, Gaza is a complete mess. You have, you know, a huge amount of aid is needed, but it's not being delivered. There's been next to no reconstruction on the ground since October when the ceasefire came into being, which is nearly six months ago. We've still got the same situation that occurred before the war began, which is that parts that the Israelis don't control of Gaza are still primarily controlled by Hamas. So actually the very reason for the war, which was to, according to Israel, to dislodge Hamas from Gaza, has not even been achieved. So quite how this Board of peace will get into itself into a position where even if it was able to get that 5 million, 5 billion rather together, that it could actually realistically start distributing it, implementing things, rebuilding is very, very hard to see, especially given, as I said before, they have no institutional capacity to actually deliver any of that.
- [08:04]
Host/Interviewer
I mean, rainbow. This is where Europe enters the picture. Giorgia Meloni signed on as an observer to the board and interestingly enough, Hung and Bulgaria, the only EU member states to join the board as full members. But she has offered to train, or Italy has offered to train police in Gaza, and the EU is now sending representatives to the board's meeting. They weren't going to. Is Europe trying to shape the process or just avoid being sidelined?
- [08:32]
Georgina Godwin
Well, obviously, if something is going on on an international scale that has any degree of influence, then it's unwise for Europe to be completely outside that process. But they've also made it very clear that they are not inside the process either, because they don't want to give too much gravitas to this organization that they see as an attempt to undermine the un. And even Italy is only going in an observatory capacity. They're not taking part as members, not least because the constitution of Italy prescribes them from doing that, because membership of the Board of Peace does not give equal power to its members, so they cannot join it because that would be, in a way, handing over some of their autonomy. So we see that the people who are engaging with the Board of Peace within Europe are the natural Trump allies. I say natural in terms of their ideological positioning. So it's not coincidence that we're seeing countries that already, the leaders already have a sympathy towards Trump attempting to engage, whereas we're seeing a lot of other countries within Europe who have downright turned down the opportunity for membership. So when the EU are going along, it's really just to have voice in the room, not to be part of the process as such.
- [09:47]
Host/Interviewer
And, Chris, how is the Board of Peace seen in the Middle East?
- [09:51]
Chris Phillips
Well, it's interesting. The vast majority of the members that have signed up to it are from the Middle East. Almost all Middle Eastern countries have signed up. Israel hasn't at this moment in time, but they're in an observer capacity as well. But it's expected that they will also join as well, along with Russia. I mean, it's interesting how those states that have signed up to it, see it and what they think they're getting from it. I think on the one hand, they want to curry favor with Trump, which is primarily why they're getting involved. There is also a sense that this board was originally set up to administer Trump's peace plan in Gaza. And there is strong domestic pressure in most Arab and Muslim states to be seen to be doing something about the Gaza situation and to encourage the ceasefire to last. So that's the two primary motivations, I think, for them to be involved. But I don't think anyone's under any illusions here. I don't think anyone thinks that this is an alternative to the un. I think it's more just a question of we recognize that Trump is the power broker at the moment in the Middle east, more broadly, in Gaza specifically, and he wants us to be involved in this, so we will be. It's no skin off their nose to get involved, really. It's not like in Europe where to get a involved would seem to be undermining something. I think that there's not the same kind of structural constraints in the Middle East.
- [11:17]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. So if Europe sending representatives to the board and is trying to stay close to Washington's diplomacy, the next question, I guess, is how Washington is choosing to engage with Europe itself. Straight from Munich, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio headed to Hungary and Slovakia. He publicly backed Viktor Orban ahead of his elections. They're coming up in April. Rainbow. Is this straightforward election meddling or a huge pub? Thank you for joining Trump's Board of Peace.
- [11:46]
Georgina Godwin
It's a bit of both. It's a sort of recognition of a mutual allyship. So Hungary has been a friend to the USA and the USA is being a friend to Hungary. It's not the first time since Trump has taken office that we've seen members of his administration coming over and being friendly with their allies. So we saw last year Dede Vance bigging up the far right in Germany ahead of, you know, as in that domestic context. And we're seeing it now in Hungary prior to an election, that Rubio is again shoring up support for Orban, not least because it would serve the USA well if Orban got reelected, which is not looking certain. But we're seeing more broadly that there's an attempt by the USA to continue engaging with Europe. We saw that in Rubio's speech when he was at the Munich defence event, but conditional and with quite a lot of qualifications.
- [12:51]
Host/Interviewer
And surely by going to only Hungary and Slovakia, it's a bit of a snub to the rest of Europe.
- [12:56]
Georgina Godwin
It's an indication that all European states are equal, but some are more equal than others.
- [13:02]
Host/Interviewer
Chris, I wonder what precedent this sets for how openly major powers intervene in democracies.
- [13:09]
Chris Phillips
Well, I think there's something particularly going on at the moment with the United States attempts to intervene. I mean, this is not the first action of such the Trump administration has taken. That was in Argentina in the elections late last year, where they actively offered financial support to the Argentinian government in an attempt successfully to sway Argentinian voters to support the president, which they did in those elections. The same thing has come about with In Rubio's speech now, he explicitly said, if you need financial support, we will offer it. And this is part of the broader strategy announced by the Trump administration in the National Security Strategy document a few months ago, which says, not only do they want to, like Rainbow says, support like minded, you know, far right or hard right leaders around the world, but specifically in Europe, they actively want to oppose interfering supranational bodies. Now, one of those is the UN which is we've talked about, hence the development of the peace board. But they also are quite hostile to the European Union. And of course, Viktor Orban is very hostile to the European Union. And that is one of the reasons why, amongst other reasons, Trump absolutely loves him and the MAGA movement absolutely love him. Whether or not this is a precedent we're going to see from other states. Well, I mean, we've already seen it. This is what Russia has done repeatedly in its neighborhood. There have been allegations that China has done this elsewhere in the world, and now the Trump administration are doing the same. As we move to this era of, you know, great power politics, multipolarity, and seeing the world through a lens of spheres of influence, it's highly plausible that other great powers or powerful actors will start using different levers, whether it's financial mechanisms or other forms of subterfuge, to try to encourage the people they want to win to win and their opponents to lose.
- [15:11]
Host/Interviewer
Roma, you mentioned Rubio's speech in Munich, which I suppose did strike a conciliatory tone to a degree. Do you think that this was a genuine attempt to reset relations? And how did it land with European leaders, who obviously are feeling increasingly exposed on security?
- [15:30]
Georgina Godwin
It was a speech that gave with one hand and took with another. So there were some hostile moments, especially at the beginning, slamming Europe on a number of areas, including climate change, where the USA sees all attempts at avoiding climate catastrophe as an assault on the US Economy, as opposed to a global response to a global challenge. And there were other indications of ongoing hostility towards the eu, which we've seen fairly consistently since Trump entered the Oval Office. But there were also a few conciliatory gestures, praise for Europe's culture, indication of an ongoing friendship and a desire to continue working with Europe, and then then setting some conditions for that relationship and reminding us that the USA is no longer interested in protecting us. So I think European leaders came away from that a little bit relieved that it wasn't an entirely hostile speech, that there were a few conciliatory gestures towards Europe, but still very wary of how far we can now trust the USA as a reliable ally.
- [16:41]
Host/Interviewer
And of course, Chris, Iran's foreign ministers dismissed Munich as a circus. He points to Europe's absence from meaningful nuclear talks that he's going to attend in Geneva. Is he right?
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Chris Phillips
Well, that comes from a position of Iranian frustration. Bear in mind that, as was mentioned by the Iranian Foreign Minister back at the height of the Obama administration, when there was negotiations, the three plus three conversations and negotiations that led to the jcpoa, European actors were really quite important. Britain, France, of course, Britain was part of the EU at that time and Germany were leading actors in helping the Obama administration fashion a deal that ultimately Iranians were quite happy with. Fast forward to 2026. The Europeans aren't present in these conversations. This is effectively bilateral negotiations between Iran and the United States via various intermediaries, and the United States is playing hardball. I believe that Tehran would very much like the more moderating influence of the European actors to be more involved in order to, perhaps, from the Iranian perspective, take the edge off some of Trump's hostility. But they're absent. Their attention is completely elsewhere. It's on Ukraine, it's on European security. And quite frankly, the Iran file is no longer really at the top of their agenda.
- [18:07]
Host/Interviewer
So that sense of political frustration and polarization, I guess, doesn't stay confined to diplomatic summits. In some cases, it spills directly onto the streets. In France, the death of a far right activist in Lyon, blamed on the ultra left, has intensified tensions ahead of local elections. Emmanuel Macron's call for calm. Others argue political rhetoric itself is fuelling the violence rainbow. How raw is the political atmosphere in France right now?
- [18:34]
Georgina Godwin
This is a particularly distressing event that comes in the wake of growing polarization within France for a decade or more. This really kicked off, actually, with the start of Macron's presidency, where we saw a shift with a more sort of compact political centre and growing extremism on both the left and the far right. And there is no love lost between the far left and the far right, even if they both share an antipathy towards Macron and everything that he stands for. But this has normally been expressed through votes, verbal violence rather than physical violence. And the political parties at the same time have condemned this murder and tried to distance themselves from it, whilst also trying to apportion as much blame as possible onto the other side, which in its own way continues to fan the flames.
- [19:33]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. So, Chris, I mean, what role does campaign language play in shifting the boundaries of acceptable behaviour and how much responsibility sits with Political leaders when confrontations like this turn?
- [19:45]
Chris Phillips
Well, it's an important question to ask because arguably the boundaries have shifted considerably in the last decade. The era of populism in Europe and in the United States and elsewhere has really seen those boundaries shifted. I mean, you've seen even in the United States, you had the assassination of Charlie Kirk recently, you had the attempted assassination of Donald Trump. These are actually figures on the right right being killed or being targeted. And yet arguably they themselves were the ones that pushed those boundaries and pushed that language, talking about opponents not deserving to live, et cetera and so on. So you see this incredibly hostile environment coming out of the kind of language that right winger themselves have started the ball rolling with. And it's perhaps unsurprising that that has rebounded onto them. It's not acceptable. It's not a world any of us want to live in. But you can see that those boundaries have been pushed so far now that actual violence, even in somewhere like France, where perhaps we wouldn't associate it with, we might perhaps more with the United States, is now more common, unfortunately.
- [21:01]
Host/Interviewer
Rainbow, I wonder if there are countries that have successfully lowered the temperature. What has work in the past?
- [21:10]
Georgina Godwin
I mean, it's always useful when you try to pull politics back towards a more consensus model, rather than one that is primarily based in hostility towards opposition. But it's a growing challenge that even countries that have traditionally been recognized for consensus and cooperation are now struggling with. An example of being the Netherlands, who have been very much based on a consensus model of democracy, a very inclusive nation. But we're now seeing sort of growing presence of the far right. I mean, in fact, we've even seen political violence there in the murder of far right leader. Across Europe, we are seeing countries grappling with this growing phenomenon that Chris described of populism, of greater distance between the different political parties and greater temptation to move towards those extremes. And it's quite difficult at that point to remind people of the common good, of what we share, of the values that bring us together. And there are moments when countries that are otherwise divided do come together. To go back to the example of France, we saw bitter political division in the lead up to the 2024 Paris Olympics. Then the whole nation came together, cheered on its athletes, marvelous national unity for a fortnight, and then they all went back to fighting with each other again. So I think as much as possible, countries that are able to remind people of what they share, what they have in common, is a good thing. But we are struggling at the moment In a nation. Sorry, in a world that is becoming increasingly polarized.
- [22:54]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, in Iran, they just shoot them.
- [22:56]
Chris Phillips
Well, that's certainly been the. It's a slightly different circumstance, but yes, that's certainly been the reaction to popular protest and the. But even, you know. So you speak to Iranians. In fact, I was speaking to Iranian students this morning, and whilst in Western countries, they might like to characterize places like Iran as incredibly violent, historically it hasn't been. This kind of violence has really shocked the Iranian public. The extent to which the regime has been willing to go and the number of people it's been willing to kill, it really has shocked people. So. So, you know, and I suppose that's a positive thing, the fact that actually when these violent moments happen, it's not normalized. It's not accepted. Even if it's accepted by the ruling elites, it's not accepted by members of the public. And, you know, you do have that understandable trauma that people have to process. I think when we have to really worry is when they're no longer traumatized by it because it's just so normal. And that's the world we really don't want to move towards.
- [23:56]
Host/Interviewer
So we've spent the program talking about power prediction and competing visions of the future. But before we go, I wanted to end on a much older way of making sense of what comes next. So this week marks Lunar New Year, ushering in the Year of the Horse. And that's associated, apparently, with speed, confidence, restlessness and momentum. So rainbow zodiac systems have survived. I mean, for everything. Empires, revolutions, algorithms. Even when politics feels volatile, do people turn more ready to these symbolic ways of explaining events? What do they offer that modern forecasts bursting doesn't?
- [24:35]
Georgina Godwin
I sometimes ask myself that. I will be honest. I'm a woman of science. I think that horoscopes are hooey. I struggle to understand how people take star signs seriously and believe that both personality traits and life events can be determined by the month of birth and the alignments of the stars. But I think what they offer is maybe a degree of escapism. I think the number of people who follow horoscopes is probably much, much larger than the number of people who actually sincerely believe in them. I think it's a bit of fun. I think people like to make jokes. People would tease my mum about being a Virgo because she was quite pedantic. People like to read the horoscope and it says, you will meet an exciting stranger this week and go, ooh. Because when life is A bit drab when there's sad stories in the news when it's raining outside. Maybe a little escapism where you look at something and think, well, that might happen and sometimes it even becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
- [25:41]
Host/Interviewer
Chris, Donald Trump is a Gemini. How does that description fit the political movement that we're living through?
- [25:49]
Chris Phillips
Well, that alarms me because so am I. Interesting. I did look at up what my Chinese New Year was, which was the Year of the Dog, which I was delighted to find out meant that apparently I'm loyal and honest. But then I discovered that Mr. Trump is also the Year of the Dog as well. Oh my goodness.
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Host/Interviewer
You're completely aligned with him.
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Chris Phillips
I'm completely aligned with him. So I suppose that might suggest a bit like what Rainbow's saying, that either based on my reaction that we use star signs and horoscopes to see what we want to see, or that it might or just be phooey.
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Host/Interviewer
Well, I'm an Aries with something rising. I don't know what that is. Which apparently explains both my optimism and my impatience. Rainbow, do you admit to having a star sign?
- [26:39]
Georgina Godwin
I'm a cancer. And I don't actually know what personality traits are associated with that, but it sounds like I would be more of an Aries because optimism and impatience are both the traits I will own. To.
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Host/Interviewer
Which sign of the zodiac would you trust then to run a country? And which one should absolutely not have its finger on the nuclear?
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Chris Phillips
Well, I mean, probably not the Gemini, because the Gemini is meant to be sort of, you know, split personality. It's the twins. So the two, the two, the two sides to you. So on the one hand, you might be having a bad day and your evil twin comes out and hits the nuclear button. So perhaps not the best one to have. I think. Aries, I think you guys are right because actually you want some optimism, you know, to be in charge. I think actually maybe that's what we're lacking at the moment. So I'm all for Aries and power if either of you wish to take up the mantle of the nuclear button.
- [27:34]
Host/Interviewer
Thank you. Thank you. But I wonder now, as we head into this Year of the Horse, what kind of global mood does that metaphor capture for you? We're galloping, are we?
- [27:45]
Chris Phillips
Well, interestingly, I would just sort of linking it to sort of more geopolitics. You know, it's I think a very appropriate one for China, you know, given that China, China celebrates the Lunar New Year probably more than anywhere else, at least in terms of numbers of people. China is doing quite well out of the global situation at the moment. All of the conversations that Western states are having are intra Western debates. These are about what was previously a united bloc since the return to power of Trump, effectively fracturing itself Europe focusing on its own security, the United States clashing with Europe and focusing on its own sphere of influence within Latin America and the Americas more broadly. And China is able to gallop away without facing the same level of scrutiny that perhaps it has done in the past. And so perhaps Xi Jinping will look positively towards the Year of the Horse and think, okay, this is going quite well for us right now.
- [28:49]
Host/Interviewer
Chris Phillips and Rainbow Murray, thank you for keeping your hands on the reins. There are currently no equine sports included in the Winter Olympics. Spoiler alert for you there, rainbow. But the 1928 Winter Games in St. Moritz did include a demonstration of ski yawring where a skier is towed by a horse. That sounds a bit athletic for the horse, not really for the skier. But anyway, sadly, this is no longer featured. But some Olympic traditions persist every year, including, of course, the use of the torch. The 2026 Winter Olympic torch was lit in Olympia last November and it arrived at the San Siro stadium in Milan for via all 110 provinces of Italy. Well, earlier on today's Olympic show monocle in Milan, Andrew Muller heard from the torches designer Carlo Ratti. Andrew began by asking Carlo how he got the job.
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Carlo Ratti
No, look, there was a kind of a little bit like in a beauty contest at the beginning, I mean, looking at what other things had designed and so on. And one of the things was about, you know, what are the values of the torch. You know, the torch is kind of touching and being seen by billions of people. So and that's where, where we started and we based on what you were saying, we really started to focus in more on the fire and the flame from Olympia more than the object itself.
- [30:09]
Andrew Muller
When you've got that proverbial blank piece of paper and it's your job to design an Olympic torch, where do you start? What's your, I guess, original animating thought?
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Carlo Ratti
Well, let me tell you that the beginning was a little bit like a real relay in its own right. It was a relay in the sense that we all went to Lausanne. In Lausanne, there's the Olympic Museum where all the past torches are. And that was the beginning. And the other thing that's similar to what happens at the Olympic is that, you know, this is really like teamwork. So it was ourselves together with Versali, together with Cavania group, together with engineers, with people looking at, you know, the flame and aerodynamics. So this was really not just one person on a blank sheet of paper. It was really working together, like in the Olympics.
- [30:54]
Andrew Muller
Listeners will have to take my word for it, but I am right now literally holding a 20, 26 Olympic torch. We have a couple of them on a plinth up here. But what you were talking about there, that process, that reference to previous Olympic torches, like, for example, in this thing I'm holding, where do you see the Olympic torch heritage?
- [31:13]
Carlo Ratti
Well, well, you know, if you look at recent Olympic torches, the exercise has been a lot like car design. At the core, you got a burner where the flame is produced and, you know, there's a lot of technical components.
- [31:24]
Andrew Muller
I should stress it's not presently lit. That would be insane.
- [31:28]
Carlo Ratti
You could try. You got the burner and then outside is like car design. You need to build something around it. Now, what we tried to do was actually the opposite. What we tried to do was focus on the flame, as I was saying before. And so we kind of designed the minimum torch around that burner. And if you look at the other side, you'll see a slot.
- [31:45]
Andrew Muller
Oh, yeah.
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Carlo Ratti
In the slot you're going to see the flame. If you turn it on, you can see the flame actually being generated and, and being produced. So somehow it was a way to use the minimum amount of aluminum. In this case, it's recycled aluminum by the minimum amount to recycle. Also, the torch, for the first time, it can be recharged, so you can use it 10 times instead of having 1001 torches, as you mentioned before. So that was an exercise size of how we could focus more on the flame than on the torch.
- [32:12]
Andrew Muller
Interested there in your reference to car design? And obviously, when people think about Italian design, that is one of the things they think of, that fantastic heritage of the Italian supercar. Is there any amount of that that goes into something like this?
- [32:26]
Carlo Ratti
I think there is a little bit about that and there's about Italian design from the 20th century, but at the same time, also a lot of technology. In working with Versalis, for instance, there was a lot of research on materials. The torch itself. The field flame the other day was at almost 5000 meter, 4500 meter on the arm. So I think there's a lot of tests, you know, minimizing the design and making it the lightest torch ever, a little over a kilo. It's somehow even more difficult than actually designing just a big shape around the core.
- [32:56]
Andrew Muller
See I was wondering that as well, does something different go into winter torches than summer torches? Because obviously, by definition, winter torches are going to have to work at lower temperatures and higher altitudes.
- [33:07]
Carlo Ratti
Certainly there is something different. One of the things as well, you see the finish, the finish is metal deposition. Very, very thin on the top of the torch. That also kind of reflects all what you have around. So that was inspired as well from the colors of the snow from Cortina, from the Alps. So certainly the environment changes summertime or winter time, and that has an impact on the design.
- [33:30]
Andrew Muller
Just finally, I guess, on the subject of the Olympics, I've been asking all our guests this morning, are you actually getting to see any? I mean, surely if you've designed the torch, they give you of those passes that just allows you to go anywhere, right?
- [33:41]
Carlo Ratti
No, I don't have one of those passes. But at the same time, I love every moment of it. You know, it's both the competitions, but also the other day was a Casa Italia in the Trenale. So I think what I find very exciting is by bringing the Olympics to a city like Milan and Cortina, you can reuse a lot of the existing infrastructure. And yes, it's a Winter Olympics, but it blends with everything else you got in the city.
- [34:04]
Andrew Muller
Do you have a particular favorite Olympic of?
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Carlo Ratti
Well, what I like very much, and that's why I went to Casa Italia in the Triennale, is really a lot of the backstage and a lot of, you know, what happens just before and after the competition.
- [34:18]
Host/Interviewer
Carlo Ratti, designer of the Olympic torch, speaking with Andrew Muller. Monocle in Milan is live every day this week at 9am London time. That's 10am in Milan or wherever you get your podcasts at any time at all. That's all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. A big thanks to my panelists today, Rainbow Murray and Chris Phill. Today's show was produced by Chris Chermack and researched by Joanna Moser. Our sound engineer was Lily Austin with editing assistance from Christy o'. Grady. I'm Georgina Godwin here in London. The Monocle Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Goodbye and thanks for listening.
- [35:03]
Georgina Godwin
Sat.