How will Nato react to Russia violating Polish airspace?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Monocle Daily

Episode: How will NATO react to Russia violating Polish airspace?
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Andrew Muller
Guests:

• Daniela Peled (Managing Editor, Institute for War and Peace Reporting)
• Alexander (Alex) Gerlach (Professor of Political Philosophy & Geopolitics, NYU)
• Daniel Huhn (author, featured in the latter segment)

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Main Theme

This episode centers on NATO’s potential response to Russia’s significant drone incursion into Polish airspace, exploring the incident’s motivations, possible Western responses, and broader consequences for European security. It also addresses the ramifications of an Israeli airstrike in Qatar and touches on shifting social and consumer behaviors. The episode concludes with a conversation about the extraordinary life of wartime commando Manfred Gans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Russia’s Drone Incursion into Poland and NATO’s Dilemma

Timestamps: [04:51] – [12:23]

Incident Recap

• Poland shot down several Russian drones that penetrated its airspace. No casualties, but some property damage. Poland triggers Article 4 of the NATO treaty, seeking allied consultation.

Deliberate Provocation?

• Alex Gerlach: Argues this is likely a deliberate test by Russia rather than an “honest screw up.”

  “Given Mr. Putin's reputation and...his relationship to truth, I would rather opt to be cautious and see that this is a test by the Kremlin to see how far...the resilience of NATO...is.” ([05:43] Alex)

Russia’s Motive

• Daniela Peled: Describes Putin's behavior as flexing on the global stage:

  “He tests the waters...Ukraine has done better than anyone could have imagined. And he's still testing the waters. He's still saying, how far will Europe go to defend Ukraine and itself, and how far will America go or not?” ([06:56] Daniela)

Polish & Regional Response

• Polish PM Donald Tusk's conundrum:

  “He has a difficult balance here...he can overreact or he can underreact…” ([07:56] Andrew)

• Alex: Highlights the historical trauma influencing Poland and neighboring states’ anxiety:

  “The farther you get away from Russia and Ukraine, the farther west in Europe, the less we might understand the emotional burden...Soviet imperialism had on these countries.” ([08:20] Alex)

European and U.S. Options

• Daniela: Advocates for a unified European response, not just a Polish one. Suggests using frozen Russian assets and bolstering Ukraine’s capabilities:

  “There’s still plenty that Europe could do...carry on supporting Ukraine...There’s 30 billion worth of frozen Russian assets in Europe that could be put to quite good use.” ([10:00] Daniela)

Trump’s (U.S.) Stance

• Trump’s ambiguous statement:

  “What's with Russia violating Poland's airspace with drones? Here we go.” ([11:07] Andrew, quoting Trump)

• Alex:

  “He has...met the Polish president...saying...the United States would be standing firmly with Poland. However, we have been seeing Mr. Trump meandering...So we will not know how he will finally, ultimately react if the situation gets more serious.” ([11:32] Alex)

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2. Israeli Airstrike on Hamas Negotiators in Qatar

Timestamps: [12:23] – [18:51]

Incident Overview

• Israel bombed a residential compound in Qatar housing Hamas negotiators. Hamas claims five killed, including a Qatari security officer. Netanyahu justifies the strike as targeting those linked to “planning the massacre of October 7, 2023, and this week's attack on bus passengers in Jerusalem.” ([12:23] Andrew)

U.S. Knowledge & Response

• Daniela:

  “I would be extremely surprised...if they hadn't known about it, since their air base is like, less than 20 miles away...He wasn't pleased about it...makes efforts to press for a ceasefire even more unlikely now, which seems counterproductive if you are assuming that Netanyahu wants a ceasefire, which he really, really doesn't want.” ([13:22] Daniela)

Qatar’s Options

• Alex: Skeptical Qatar or Arab states can meaningfully retaliate:

  “Mr. Netanyahu...is in the same position as Vladimir Putin...Donald Trump has not been delivering on his threats or promises. Mr. Netanyahu can do whatever he pleases.” ([14:51] Alex)

Israel’s Approach—Pattern of Assassinations

• Daniela:

  “Israel carried out numerous targeted assassinations...and really ruined the operational capability of militant networks...But it hasn't destroyed Hamas or its capability to operate at all.” ([16:12] Daniela)

Arab States’ Real Sentiments

• Alex:

  “Sometimes there’s overlapping interest...the whole ordeal...has had an immense impact on the relationship between Israel and the Arab states...But there’s not much the Arab states...could be doing on its own...this is going to be blowing over.” ([17:55] Alex)

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3. FM Radio in Switzerland – Resistance to Digital-Only Future

Timestamps: [18:51] – [23:54]

Swiss Decision on FM Shutdown

• Switzerland's National Council cancels the phase-out of FM radio after a drop in listeners following earlier shutdowns.

Panel Reflections

• Daniela:

  “How would I listen to Radio 4?” ([19:51] Daniela)

• Alex: Attributes listener loss to Swiss “stubbornness” (in a lighthearted, cross-cultural jest):

  “Being a German and the Swiss our neighbors, we have some sayings about...Swiss stubbornness. So maybe that's just [them] teaching their governments a lesson.” ([20:20] Alex)

Broader Resistance to Tech Changes

• Discussion about love of old tech (cash, books, vinyl, FM radio) and the generational divide.

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4. The Rise of Self-Gifting & Changing Christmas Spending Habits

Timestamps: [23:54] – [27:53]

Self-Gifting Trends

• A survey claims one-third of Brits plan to spend more on Christmas presents for themselves than for others.

Panel Analysis & Broader Context

• Daniela:

  “Otherwise if not, then it's just, you know, end stage capitalism. What can you say?” ([25:23] Daniela)

• Alex: Links self-gifting to larger social isolation trends:

  "These days...you see like people being alone...there's also the whole industry of solo travel...there is something happening in our societies...social mobility [and] trust in each other...has declined significantly." ([25:34] Alex)

Millennials and Spending

• Millennials reportedly spending £1,000 on themselves for Christmas:

  “It's probably just from their cat...they spend it all on jelly cats and avocado on toast, right? Isn't that make your matcha lattes?” ([27:20]-[27:40] Daniela, humorously)

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Putin is basking in the warm glow of his friendships with China and North Korea...”
  — Daniela Peled [06:56]

• “If you would concede that there might be...a slight overreaction, which I do not, it would be understandable by the history.”
  — Alex Gerlach [08:20]

• On Trump’s position:

  “We will not know how he will finally, ultimately react if the situation gets more serious. If I were in the Kremlin, I would just feel like that Mr. Trump is not much of a hindrance in achieving my goals.”
  — Alex Gerlach [11:32]

• “He wants to remake the Middle East and he's carrying on going around it.”
  — Daniela Peled on Netanyahu [14:40]

• On FM radio resistance:

  “Germans can also be very stubborn...but I guess that’s the only sense I could make of it. Well, if you don't want us as listeners then, well, we just go to other stations.”
  — Alex Gerlach [20:33]

• On changing consumer culture:

  “Otherwise if not, then it's just, you know, end stage capitalism. What can you say?”
  — Daniela Peled [25:23]

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6. Book Interview: The Story of Manfred Gans

Timestamps: [27:53] – [35:24]

Introduction

• Daniel Huhn shares how he discovered Manfred Gans’s story—a Jewish refugee-turned-commando who helped liberate Europe and sought his parents in Theresienstadt at WWII’s end.

Unique Perspective

• Gans’s journey from German refugee to British commando interrogating German POWs—“They could have been his classmates, but now he's sitting there as a British officer and they are his enemies.” ([30:42] Daniel Huhn)

Deeper Insights

• Andrew Muller:

  “There must have been millions of stories like that across Europe just after the war as people all of a sudden had to figure out how to put their lives back together. Did you see his as somehow emblematic?” ([30:42] Andrew)

• Daniel Huhn:

  “Another interesting part...is that he was posted to his former hometown...And he was pretty much disappointed that even after...the people were not able to admit their guilt.” ([33:39] Daniel Huhn)

Lasting Legacy & Moving On

• Gans waited decades to reconnect with his German hometown.

  “It took 40 years for him and his family to re-encounter with Germany...It was mainly to really find a new life for him.” ([34:52] Daniel Huhn)

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first.

[B]

Broadcast on the 10th of September, 2025 on Monocle Radio. NATO ponders a response to Russia's drone incursion over Poland. Everyone ponders the consequences of Israel's airstrike on Qatar and cutting out the middleman at Christmas, the apparent rise of self gifting. I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts. Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily, coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Danielle Apled and Alexander Gorlach will discuss today's big stories. And we'll speak to the author Daniel Hune about his new book chronicling the astonishing story of Manfred Gans, from Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany to British army commando and his dash across Europe to save his parents. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Daniela Peled, managing editor at the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, and by Alexander Gerlach, professor of political philosophy and geopolitics at New York University. Hello to you both.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Hello, Alex. Your first appearance on the Daily. Welcome to this welcome to the pantheon. Basically, if you would introduce yourself to our listeners. Who are you and how did you get here?

[A]

Thank you very much for having me, Andrew. I teach democratic theory and practice at nyu, and my field of expertise is the rise of China and what it means for democracies in East Asia and beyond. I lived in Taiwan and Hong Kong and I visit Japan and Korea frequently. And as you can, as we all know by Daily News, the arena, the geopolitical arena is pretty much determined nowadays by China and how China is moving. And that's how I got a broader understanding, I feel, of geopolitics in general. I lived in America until recently, just moved here to London. So there is a lot of America and China in the mix, too. And I got here, I think I was here first five or six years ago, but it's a long time ago, so I don't know if we crossed paths at the time.

[B]

We may have done massively, helpfully. We will not be discussing China much in tonight's show, but I did want to ask what has it been like trying to teach theory and practice of democracy in an American university, perhaps these last few months in particular?

[A]

Well, it has been interesting. Like two years ago I had like students that were mostly international, from the Gambia to Kazakhstan. Last year they were mostly American who took the seminar because of the imminent election of Donald Trump. And we tried to make sense of the election of Trump, the second election of Trump in class, to like, evaluating why Americans might have voted for this gentleman for a second time. So also the war in Gaza obviously has captured, as you all have seen in the news, like the students in the United States, Colombia and nyu. So that was also very interesting to see. And I'm happy to say that my students engaged in a very civil debate about the topics at hand, which I was very happy as a professor to see and also to somehow moderate a civil debate about the topic.

[B]

Daniela Regular listeners to the Daily will be well aware of what is coming next. Which weird local museums have you been visiting most recently?

[C]

Well, I mean, when Alex said that he frequently visits Japan and Korea, my immediate reaction was thinking, oh, gosh, imagine, imagine the niche museums there. How wonderful. So my most recent highlight was a visit to the Museum of the Broads in Norfolk, where you can learn all about the waterways, their denizens, animal, avian and human.

[B]

Genuinely, I like the way you said human. Like it was an inverted comment.

[C]

Did I hesitate? I'm not throwing shade on the Norfolkians. Lovely museum. There was even a boat, several boats to sit in. You could take a little boat trip. I recommend it highly.

[B]

I'm. I'm well, literally and spiritually all aboard for a museum with a little boat in it. Like where does. What manner of little boat is it and where do you get to go in it?

[C]

Well, you can pay a bit extra for a little bit of a scoot around the. The Norfolk Broads.

[B]

Well, why would you not?

[C]

Well, they are fascinating. I've never been there before. There's. There's long stretch which is completely uninhabited apart from wildlife and wild fowl. And then there are quite a lot of bits which seem to be inhabited by bungalows, flying Union Jacks with very, very manicured lawns. So make of that what you will. And not really very many people to be seen.

[B]

Well, we will be starting in Poland, which overnight scrambled aircraft to shoot down Russian drones which had penetrated Polish airspace. Polish authorities say 19 Russian drones were det. Of which four were shot down, while several others appear to have crashed. No casualties have been reported, though there has been some damage to a few buildings in eastern Poland, presumably from falling debris. Poland has triggered Article 4 of the NATO treaty, which mandates consultations with its allies. Russia almost interestingly, has not issued its traditional absurd denial, but instead has said it had no plans to target Poland and offered to talk to Poland's Defence Ministry. Alex as far as we can tell so far, which may not be very. Does this look more like an honest, if you will, screw up by Russia or a deliberate provocation?

[A]

Well, I would tend to the latter. I feel this is like it's 19 Jones military experts say, like I said, it's almost impossible that this would just have happened by chance. So everybody would hope that would be the case. But given Mr. Putin's reputation and also like the ongoing war in Ukraine and his relationship to truth, I would rather opt to be cautious and see that that is like a test by the Kremlin to see how far the Kremlin can go, how much, how the resilience of NATO, of NATO member states is. And I think that's where we at the moment, it's, I think, a very dangerous crossroads we at.

[B]

If it is a provocation, Daniela, and I do think that does seem the likeliest explanation. What if you're Russia? What is the point of that? I mean, obviously this, it's one of the advantages of drones. This is a relatively low cost undertaking. You won't have to spend very much money doing like this. You don't risk any lives of your service personnel. Not that that seems to concern Russia terribly much at the best of times, and you do get to cause a lot of trouble. But other than that, what's the point?

[C]

Does saying na na count as a foreign policy analysis for Russia very often?

[B]

I think it does.

[C]

I mean, I think that's what we have here. I mean, Putin is basking in the warm glow of his friendships with China and North Korea and really, I think, flexing his muscles and saying, look, guys, you thought that it was west that ruled the international order. You know, step back. That's not happening anymore. And it is, as you said, it's a lowcost way to test the waters. And that is really Putin's method of operations. He tests the waters. He went into Crimea in 2014, no one did anything. Pushes a little bit further, went into the east of Ukraine, similarly. And now this war has been going on really for quite a while and it's, it's reached something of a stalemate. Nonetheless, Ukraine has done better than anyone could have imagined. And he's still testing the waters. He's still saying, how far will Europe go to defend Ukraine and itself and how far will America go or not go?

[B]

It's a tricky moment for Donald Tusk, the Polish Prime Minister. Alex, he is quite plainly and quite reasonably furious. I get the impression that the anger in his public statements is not merely for diplomatic effect. But he has a difficult balance here, doesn't he? He can overreact or he can underreact. What is the actual sensible place between those?

[A]

Well, I feel the further you get away from Russia and Ukraine, the farther west in Europe, the less we might be able to understand the emotional burden like the Soviet imperialism had on these countries. And I feel like even if you would concede that there might be like a slight overreaction, which I do not, it would be understandable by the history. And you can see that all the countries, countries also the Baltics that border Russia or close to Russia, have the same sort of reflex when it comes to the expansion or the expansionist thought and deeds of Mr. Putin. And that's also, if you remember, like one of the starting points of the war in Ukraine, that these countries in the former Soviet Union, they, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, wanted to join the Western order, wanted to become democracies, wanted to become members of NATO, not least because they wanted to prevent another attack by Russia on their territor.

[B]

What do you think, Daniela? Because there is a range of options. If you're Poland, at one level, one extreme, I guess you could just sort of say, ah, this isn't a big deal. There's no need to get excited about it. At the other end of it, you could invade Kaliningrad. I assume that the Polish reaction will be somewhere between those two. But going back to what Alex was saying about how this is all very much not theoretical and not ancient history to Poles, I have been surprised in the last couple of years with actually maybe surprised isn't the word. Taken aback perhaps by off the record conversations, especially with Polish government officials and Polish military, about how extremely serious they are about Russia trying its luck.

[C]

Yeah. And so they should be. I mean, I think you're quite right. We don't really appreciate just the extent of historical memory, feeling and danger as well. I mean, really, what what Poland should do now is it's not about what Poland does, it's about what the European Union does. Like Poland should not be on its own to react. I mean, Poland is not going to send some drones over the border. It's about a European reaction and also about this reaction from the United States. There's still plenty that Europe could do to not react directly to this provocation by Russia against Poland, but to carry on supporting Ukraine. Ukraine. There's 30 billion worth of frozen Russian assets in Europe that could be put to quite good use. Ukraine is already producing a phenomenal amount of drones, but that could be supported more. And that's just the European response. The Americans have got a lot more in their toolbox that they could put into play.

[B]

Just finally on this one, Alex, another person whose opinion is going to heaven help us matter is the President of the United States, Donald Trump. His statement issued in the last hour or so on his own platform, Truth Social, is, and I quote, what's with Russia violating Poland's airspace with drones? Here we go. Do you want to have a go at explaining that for us?

[A]

Unfortunately, I cannot explain that in particular. He has, however, met the Polish president, Nairoki last week, and he was saying at that occasion that the United States would be standing firmly with Poland. However, we have been seeing Mr. Trump meandering, if I may call it like between opposites of possible opinions. So we will not know how he will finally, ultimately react if the situation gets more serious. We can say that his efforts to end the war in Ukraine have been futile so far. He has been angered by Mr. Putin several times. However, his threats of sanctions, that did never really materialize. So if I were in the Kremlin, I would just feel like that Mr. Trump is not much of a hindrance in achieving my goals.

[B]

Well, to Doha now, where the literal and diplomatic cleanup following yesterday's air raid by Israel continues. Israeli aircraft bombed a residential compound housing the Hamas negotiating team who have been engaged in talks over Gaza. Hamas have acknowledged that five members of the organization were killed, but claimed that its leadership were unscathed. One member of Qatar's internal security force was killed and others injured. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has claimed, by way of justification, both the involvement of some of those present in planning the massacre of October 7, 2023, and this week's attack on bus passengers in Jerusalem, for which Hamas have claimed responsibility. Daniela we'll start by continuing with our theme of bemusing responses to global events by the President of the United States. He was apparently told in advance that, that the Israeli planes were going. He now is saying he's not at all happy about it.

[C]

Well, I would be extremely surprised and shocked if they hadn't known about it, since their air base is like, less than 20 miles away from the site of the attack. He wasn't pleased about it. But now J.D. vance is saying, well, it's not great, but they got the bad guys. So I don't think there's too much. There's too much upset over that. But, yeah, I mean, it does make efforts to press for a ceasefire even more unlikely now, which seems counterproductive if you are assuming that Netanyahu wants a ceasefire, which he really, really doesn't want. So quite effectively, he's. He's nixed that and he's carrying on pushing ahead with plans that are not only deeply unpopular in his country amongst his constituency, like occupying Gaza City, but also have been deemed illegal by his own legal advice. He wants to carry on. He wants to carry on. And so far, these bold moves that he's been making, for instance, the strike on Iran in June, seem illogical, seem crazy, but if you look at it from his point of view, have worked out quite well. He is saying he wants to remake the Middle east and he's carrying on going around it.

[B]

The Qataris, Alex, are predictably and understandably furious about this. But do they have any meaning, meaningful options by way of retaliation? Should they be thinking in that direction?

[A]

Well, I think they do not really. And like, this is related to what Annette was saying, like, Mr. Netanyahu in that regard is in the same position as Vladimir Putin in Russia, that Donald Trump has not been delivering on his threats or promises. Mr. Netanyahu can do whatever he pleases. So today, the European Union has a freezing, like money going into Israel, but that is also, like now after this war in Gaza has gone on for two years. So it's kind of like a miscellaneous Senate. And I must be getting the feeling that he has a carte blanche for whatever he's going to do. And as we speak, it's not only been Qatar, but also Lebanon, Syria and the west bank where Israel has been undertaking military operations. So I feel like if I were the government of Israel, I would feel very emboldened about what I'm doing. And I don't think they feel much fear for reprisal.

[B]

Yeah, well, certainly, Daniela, Israel's government outriders are not remotely abashed. Israel's Ambassador to the United States, Yikael Leiter, said earlier, if we didn't get them this time, we'll get them next time. Is this perhaps part of a pattern of. Israel has a history of making it personal. They have at various points in their history, identified those they believe responsible for attacks upon Israel or Israelis and hunted them down individually.

[C]

Well, I mean, this has been going on with Hamas for a long time. I don't know if you remember Shaykh Ahmed Yassin, the old guy in the wheelchair, and so many others who were figureheads or operational commanders, and they were assassinated. And, you know, on a practical level, actually, it does work. You know, in the second intifada, Israel carried out numerous targeted assassinations in the west bank and Gaza and really ruined the operational capability of militant networks and with Hamas as well. So, yeah, it struck a blow with, with targeting the Hamas leadership in this since October 7th, but it hasn't destroyed Hamas or its capability to operate at all. And also there's a very disparate leadership in Hamas. There's the guys in Qatar, there's the guys in the west bank, there's a hell of a lot of guys in prison in Israel. And no matter what they do, you know, you get to a certain level, they will be replaced. And this is not going to affect their operational capability as far as I can see very much at all.

[B]

Alex, just finally on this one, the Qataris obviously are angry and I suspect that anger is probably genuine. There has been a lot of anger expressed from other Arab capitals. But how deeply felt do you think that actually is? Is it perhaps of a piece with the expressions of outrage we have heard about Israel's actions elsewhere in the Middle east against Hezbollah, against Bashar Al Assad, against the Houthis, against Hamas? I get the sense that from quite a lot of other Arab governments there is a sort of, oh, no, they've attacked Hamas and Hezbollah. How terrible. That's the last thing we wanted them to do.

[A]

No, I feel it's also like, I mean, if you refer to Iran and Hezbollah, that's also like not the friend of many, many Arab capitals. So I feel like there is sometimes there's overlapping interest. However, the whole ordeal, if I may say so, has also like, obviously like had a immense impact on the relationship between Israel and the Arab states in the region. So I feel like it's, I guess it comes back to what I said earlier. I feel there is a feeling of you cannot do much about it at this point as long as the United States are not like stepping in significantly, like showing Mr. Netanyahu like, how far he can go, which is not to be expected at this point in time. There is not much to that the Arab states, the Arab Union could be doing on its own is my feeling. So, yes, this is going to be blowing over at the same time you mention it, there's like airstrikes in Yemen at the same time. So like Israel is doing what it is doing and there's not much what we can do about it.

[B]

Well, to Switzerland now and good news for listeners who still prefer old school radio, which does of course mean they can't listen to this the Monocle Daily, but that is entirely their problem. Switzerland's National Council has approved a motion which will thwart a previous plan to switch off FM radio entirely at the end of next year. It was noted that since the radio stations of the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation ditched FM broadcasts earlier this year, they have lost around a fifth of their listeners. Also that many car radios are not digital ready which may tempt Swiss drivers towards commercial or foreign stations. Daniela, do you have strongly fixed opinions one way or the other about the future of FM radio?

[C]

Radio? Well, I've got a very.

[B]

Could you think of one would be ideal?

[C]

I've got a very old car and it doesn't have digital radio. So the FM radio is the only as any option and it goes a bit fuzzy and a bit wonky.

[B]

Would you miss it if it wasn't there?

[C]

Well, how would I listen to Radio 4?

[B]

You listen to Radio 4?

[C]

Look at me, I'm a middle aged woman, of course I listen to Radio 4.

[B]

Are you surprised though Alex, by the fact that a fifth, I mean that's an astonishing number. A fifth of regular listeners to srg, that's the local acronym for the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, have just decided, well if they're not going to broadcast in fm, I'm simply not going to listen because these are presumably quite habitual listeners.

[A]

Well, I mean being a German and the Swiss our neighbors, we have some sayings about like a certain Swiss stubbornness. So maybe that's just also by teaching their governments a lesson because, sorry, the.

[B]

Germans joke about the Swiss being stubborn.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but I mean we are closer to you guys so maybe you, you know, you make fun of our stubbornness. Germans can also be very stubborn, that's. That's for sure. But I guess that's the only sense I could make of it. Well, if you don't want us as listeners then, well, we just go to other stations. Which they obviously did.

[B]

Indeed. So then this is it is firing up a pet hobby horse of mine, Daniela, which is. I do think governments and corporations often overestimate the enthusiasm of the ordinary citizen for newfangled technology and indee the organizational capabilities of the ordinary citizen who simply cannot be bothered with any of this. I am frequently that person. Are you?

[C]

Probably not as frequently as you, but I do have, as I mentioned, as a middle aged woman living in North London, I do have my particular peccadilloes, one of which marks me out which I quite like using cash rather than contactless.

[A]

Germany would love Germany. It's still a keshe country, right?

[C]

Yeah, I do. And people seem to take it as an offense quite Often. But I do think that future generations are just going to miss out on that particular satisfaction that comes when you count out the exact change, which I still enjoy.

[B]

That is always a nice moment. See, I kind of, Alex, have wilted on the cash thing. I was a long time cash holdout. I will not, however, use self service checkouts. I will literally walk several blocks to shop somewhere that does have staff tools rather than use self service checkouts.

[C]

But then you miss out on the experience of hearing unidentified item in packing area.

[B]

Yeah. One of the many things I hate about them is the sort of incessant. I think they're genuinely cruel to the people who do still work in supermarkets because hearing that sort of robotic voice saying the same thing over and over again every day would drive me around the twist. Do you have any things that you are doggedly clinging to, Alex? Are there any respects in which you are that person standing on a barricade facing down the future and shouting stop?

[A]

Well, yes, I am, but I feel I'm not alone. And that's when it comes to books. I think when ebooks, the Kindles came along, there was like a huge fe that they will like. Yeah. That will make the traditional, the classy book disappear. And as it seems, at least for the German market, that has not been the case. And if I look into bookshops everywhere in the world I go, there's still like plenty. So I feel like the calmness of a book to just reading, the smelling of the book sitting down, that's something that many, many people still enjoy and did not exchange for like an electronic device.

[B]

Another completely correct opinion. You can absolutely come back. Daniela, other than cash, do you have, do you have any others?

[C]

I do like reading on electronic devices. I like reading. Yes, yeah, I do that. I have. I, I know I have entered the, the modern world, but I wouldn't say I was, I was, you know, sort of sticking them. I just for the sake of it. For one thing, I find it baffling why people seem to be so. Even a younger generation seems to be so keen on vinyl records now because they're very, very, very, very, very popular.

[B]

Yeah. They are also expensive, fragile, inconvenient and annoying in many respects.

[C]

Well, exactly. So that, so I mean, maybe the same thing will happen in, in Switzerland with the, with the FM radio. Maybe it'll just become like a hipster, a hipster device, a hipster niche.

[B]

Well, we can look forward to that. Another thing we can look forward to is that it is. And I counted 106 days until Christmas. Which means that it is 100 days until it should be legal to hang any Christmas decoration or broadcast any Christmas related advertising or indeed commit commission dubious market research in the hope of getting your company talked about in such prestigious current affairs fora as this, the Monocle Daily. Nevertheless, someone has had a go. Though in keeping with deeply petty program policy, we will not be mentioning the entity concerned. Anyway, it says here that this Christmas fully one third of British people are planning to spend more on presents for themselves than for their feckless friends or ghastly relatives. Daniella, as the lone British person at this table, are you in any way surprised by this?

[C]

I'm surprised at the absolute chutzpah that they kind of. I don't know how you get this kind of information. If it was, you know, a sort of IPSO poll and very verifiable. I don't know.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I know how you get this information.

[C]

Okay. No, well, I think what British people would do would be to save up the money and go to the sales and then they'd feel kind of justified. You wouldn't feel that sense of guilt. And since the sales now stop start long before Christmas, I think maybe that's, that's the, I think maybe that's, that's the way in otherwise if not, then it's just, you know, end stage capitalism. What can you say?

[B]

Or is it Alex, is, is this just the practical approach to Christmas? Is this the way of thinking? I know how I can make sure I get at least one bloody thing I want. I will buy it myself.

[A]

No, I feel it's, it's fitting pretty neatly into a global like process that we can observe at this time. So these days if you go to your reels on Instagra or TikTok, you see like people being alone and showing like their morning alone. Like here's my 5am cup of coffee and this is my 510 yoga and this is my. And there's no one else except for these people by themselves. There's also the whole industry of solo travel which is something that also by numbers you can see are going up there. It's like also on these, on these apps like Instagram and TikTok which seem to be like fostering sort of like this being alone and being by yourself. You have promotion of this sort of travel. So I, I think there is a certain, like there is something happening in our societies. And you see in America where I just came from, there is like the social mobility has declined significantly over the Last three decades. And so has also the trust in each other in America. Like 30 years ago, a majority of Americans said they trust each other like the other fellow American. Today it's like it's significantly lower. So you feel like it's not just nice to be alone with my device and whatever. It has also real life, real time time implications and negative of negative sort, I feel.

[B]

I mean, yeah, you can't even trust a fellow citizen to buy you the pair of socks you actually wanted. I mean, it does actually. Apparent confirmation of what Alex was just saying. Daniela. The same survey, doubtless rigorously researched, says that actually the biggest spenders, perhaps counterintuitively, are millennials who are the cohort usually heard complaining that they don't have any money. Average budget, it says here, among millennials at Christmas, is £1,000. I'm not sure I've spent a thousand pounds on Christmas presents in my entire adult life.

[C]

It's probably just from their cat.

[B]

We kind of did that item yesterday. Are we believing this? Do we think millennials are going out there spending a thousand quid on Christmas?

[C]

I'll say yes, why not? And they spend it all on jelly cats and avocado on toast. Right. Isn't that make your matcha lattes?

[B]

I suspect so, no. We are actually getting a head shake from the actual millennial production producer in the production booth there.

[C]

What do we know?

[B]

Monica, are you spending a thousand pounds on yourself at Christmas?

[C]

No apparent.

[B]

Apparently not. Daniela Pellet and Alexander Gerlach, thank you very much for joining us. Finally, on today's show, there are countless millions of stories of lives turned upside down by conflict. And given the personal and historical stakes in play, almost any of them could be the subject. Gripping non fiction if told right. It is difficult, however, to imagine richer source material than the life of Manfred Gans. A Jewish teenager who fled Nazi Germany for the United Kingdom in the late 1930s. Was interned as an enemy alien when the war started. Persuaded British authorities he could be more useful elsewhere. Joined a German speaking Jewish commando unit of the British Army. The legendary 3 troop went ashore on France on D Day and as the war ended, drove across Europe to the Theresienstadt ghetto in occupied Czechoslovakia to look for his parents. The story is told in a new book by Daniel. I will come back for you. The undercover Jewish commando who helped defeat the Nazis. I spoke to Daniel earlier and began by asking how he'd first happened across Manfred Gans, AKA Freddie Gray.

[D]

So I would say somehow he find me. It was not him, but it was City Archivist of Borkin of his former hometown, who called me almost nine years ago. And it was that Manfred's family. So he wasn't alive anymore, but his children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews made a journey on his footsteps. And I was asked to do some interviews with them. And yeah, I stepped into a bus and I found myself in a bus with 18 people from the family to go on the tour from Hoos in the Netherlands to Theresienstadt. And that was an intense journey and it was a start to get to know about his story, about the family story. And yeah, after that I got trust from the family. I got a lot of documents, mainly letters from the family. And I started to dig deeper in.

[B]

This story because to make clear to our readers, that was an even more intense journey at the time that Manfred Gans did it. And that's not even the half of the book, to boil it down very briefly. This is somebody who escaped Nazi occupied Europe, is briefly interned in the United Kingdom as a suspect German before being recruited into a special operations unit as a German speaking British soldier, actually goes ashore on D day and then ends up driving across Europe trying to find his parents who've somehow survived a concentration camp. It really struck me reading it though, that there must have been millions of stories like that across Europe just after the war as people all of a sudden had to figure out how to put their lives back together. Did you see his as somehow emblematic?

[D]

For me, I learned a lot in school, I learned a lot during my studies. I read a lot of books, but I rarely found a story with perspective on this time. As you said, he's from Germany, escaped to England and then came back still German, but also already some kind of British. And he had all together in his, in his mind. And there are so, so many, how can you say, surrealistic moments or strange situations when, when he. So he was mainly in charge to do interviews with German soldiers, they just kept. And it could have been his classmates, but it's now he's sitting there as a British officer and they are his enemies. And, and so, yeah, there's so many situations you cannot really imagine. At the same time, he's writing so detailed about it and that makes it so intense that we really got an idea what he thought about all these encounters and what he felt during these days.

[B]

You have those written accounts, a lot of them in the form of letters he sent to his childhood sweetheart, Anita Lamb, who later became his wife, but who had spent that period of her life in the United States. Were you surprised by some of what he wrote in those letters, especially his attitude towards those German soldiers, or now former German soldiers he was interrogating? Because he writes more than once. These people have learned nothing.

[D]

Yeah, so I was. First of all, I would say I was somehow surprised that he. I think he managed to put away his emotions, but he was somehow very straightforward and he was. Yeah, he didn't engage them with, let's say, anger. What one can say is that he really managed to do the best out of the situation and that he had really had the aim to fight back to Germany. There's this famous film of Tarantino and Glorious Bastards. And when that came out, he was still alive. And he and all the other veterans of the unit found out about this film and they were not so happy because it's a story of revenge. And he pointed out that their mission was to fight back to Germany, to end this war. This is pretty much what you also find in his letters. When he describes his situation. You could say somehow surprising or. Yeah, it's. There's some deep kind of humanity in it.

[B]

I mean, there's also, from those letters between him and Anita, a lot of, you know, just extraordinary detail about the experience of Jews in Germany and Europe during the 1930s as they began to understand what was going on around them. Did you learn anything new from those letters about the experiences of Jewish people in Europe at that time, or was it just one more useful personal testimony?

[D]

What I learned, for example, is especially that the times. The times after the war, after the war ended. And another interesting part of his story is that he was posted to his former hometown, Borgen, and there he. He met all the people he knew, his former teachers, his former classmates. And he was pretty much disappointed that even after the end of the war, the people were not able to admit their guilt, that they just thought, he will come back and be friend again. And this was something I wasn't aware before, that much of the situation immediately after the war and how the mindset of the people has been that time.

[B]

Did you get any sense of how his wartime experiences affected him in later life? Because at one level, he. He has been, as he must have understood, a lot more fortunate than a lot of people in his situation before the war. For a start, he's still alive. And not only extraordinarily did both his parents survive in Theresienstadt. He's able to find them afterwards, and the family is more or less reunited.

[D]

Yeah. So, of course, his family was lucky. They all survived. And that's as we know, it's not usual a fate of a Jewish family of that time from Germany. His idea, the idea was to build up a new future, not so much about looking back. And it took time, it took 40 years for him and his family to re encounter with Germany, with Borg and with his hometown after the war. It was mainly to really to find a new life for him. That was his main task.

[B]

That was Daniel Huhn. Daniel's new book, I will come back for you. The Undercover Jewish Commando who helped defeat the Nazis is available now. That is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Daniela Pellet and Alexander Gerlach. Today's show was produced by Monica Lillis and researched by Daniela Br Smith. Our sound engineer was Elliot Greenfield. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.