← The Monocle Daily
Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 9th September 2025 on Monocle Radio.
- [00:06]
B
Israel adds Qatar to its lengthy list of post October 7th targets. France once again finds itself advertising for a new Prime Minister and could, in station libraries, persuade commuters to start reading again. I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts. Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London, I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Leila Malana Allen and Michael Binion will discuss the day's big stories. And we'll meet the co director and co writer of Deaf Republic, a theatrical adaptation of the works of Ukrainian American poet Ilya Kaminsky. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Leyla Malana Allen, Monocle's regular Middle east correspondent, and by Michael Binion, foreign affairs specialist for the Times. Hello to you both.
- [01:14]
C
Hello.
- [01:15]
B
Hello, Michael. First of all, last time you were in here, which wasn't that long ago, you told us you'd been to a remarkable number of this summer's Proms concerts at the Royal Albert Hall. You have. You have since been to an even more remarkable number of the Proms concerts.
- [01:31]
C
That's it. That's it.
- [01:32]
B
How have they been this year? Because you're a pretty regular attendee.
- [01:36]
C
I think they've been very good. They've been pretty mainstream. I mean, I know the problems are meant to highlight new composers and new works, but frankly, people want to hear the good classical repertoire. That's what they go there for. And a lot of the good stuff has been there. It's all been virtually all the, you know, chief composers one wants to hear Beethoven, Mozart, you know, all of them, they're, they've been well represented. And I heard Grieg's Piano Concerto was the last one. Great, lovely piece of music.
- [02:06]
B
So I'm pleased to hear that because I, I feel broadly the same about concerts which are performances of, shall we say, more modern music. I, I don't think band should be allowed to do the usual thing of like front loading the new stuff and playing the hits at the encores. It should be the other way around.
- [02:22]
C
Exactly.
- [02:22]
B
Like just play all the hits if anybody wants to hear your new record. And to be clear, nobody does play that for the encore. Layla, now that you have your breath back, Tube strike week. So it's always exciting for us to see if our guests are coming at all and how close to kickoff they get here, you have just got here. But you've previously rather been undertaking slightly more exciting journeys than trying to get across London when the tube isn't working.
- [02:48]
A
I have. I mean, I've really, you know, hit a strong and heavy landing back in London with the rain and the tube strike after an entire August off doing beautiful things in lovely places, lots of islands. I was very lucky. I was in Formentera, I was in Ischia, then went to Albania, which was new and exciting and utterly wonderful.
- [03:08]
B
Big fan of Albania.
- [03:10]
A
I am a big fan of Albania. What I would say is that unfortunately it has been so over Instagrammed and sort of advertised as the cheap way to do Greece and Italy now that we were sort of holding pictures in our hands of these beautiful beaches we were supposed to be at and looking down and sort of stepping between sunbeds and crisp packets. So, unfortunately, the government has sold every single piece of beachfront land in that Albanian Riviera area. So I wouldn't say it's the untouched, tranquil paradise it once was, but it was still interesting to see. And most importantly, the people are spectacularly kind and welcoming.
- [03:50]
B
They are that, in my experience. So, yes, visit Albania. We are not on a retainer. Michael, do you have an objection to this?
- [03:57]
C
Not an objection, just a remark that when I went there with the first Foreign Secretary from Britain who'd been there after the end of communism, this was 25 years ago, the Runway was cobbled and the planes landed. The most utterly awful experience. I hope it's now tarmac.
- [04:14]
B
So see you have just out Albania hipstered me because I was about to say, the first time I went, which was in about 2003, there were billboards up saying new to Albania, Visa card. It has come a long way. We do start tonight in Qatar, which may presently be wondering if the Boeing 747 they recently lavished upon US President Donald Trump was an especially effective bribe. With the apparent foreknowledge of the United States, Israel has launched an airstrike on Qatar. The target, a residential compound in Doha housing members of the Hamas negotiating team participating in talks pertaining to Gaza. The raid comes as Israel has instructed all residents of what remains of Gaza City to evacuate in anticipation of a full dress Israeli invasion. Leila, most recent reports at least, Al Jazeera is saying that one senior Hamas member, Suhail Al Hindi, is saying that the group's leadership have survived the attack. But what are your impressions of how and why and wherefore is this Israel's Extremely subtle way of saying they're not really terribly interested in these negotiations.
- [05:24]
A
Well, partly. So when the strike happened earlier this afternoon, it was not clear whether this was something they had preemptively decided they were going to do or whether it was retaliation for the BASA attack. Yesterday in Jerusalem, of course, yesterday in.
- [05:37]
B
East Jerusalem we saw Netanyahu has suggested as much.
- [05:40]
A
He now has confirmed that that was the case. But given that they would have had to pre plan this attack, there is a possibility that that was then used as a last minute justification to go ahead with this attack.
- [05:50]
B
This is an idea they'd already had. You don't do this on a whim.
- [05:54]
A
Particularly given that in the last few days we've been getting all these rumblings of this is the last chance you must look at this deal. Now, you know, Trump came out yesterday saying this is your last chance. Hamas, if you want a deal, you know, please get together and discuss. Some in the Middle east are going so far to say that this was essentially a setup, you know, pulling all these leaders together in this one place so that this strike could be carried out. And the big question, of course, is firstly, you know, if the Trump administration, there's a question over whether they simply allowed it to go ahead or whether they actually sort of endorsed it. Netanyahu's come out and said, you know, we did this completely independently. Israel, you know, carried this out on their own. But the question is, firstly, did the Trump administration actually endorse it, in which case they themselves are essentially saying that they don't want a ceasefire deal. And everything we've seen in the last couple of weeks since Hamas came forward after months of being blamed for a ceasefire not going ahead and said we will agree to the American deal. Now they're saying we're considering the new American deal where the terms have been changed again. So it certainly does seem on the Israeli side, given what's going on in Gaza City, this renewed offensive, given all the moves that we're seeing in the west bank with pushing forward with unauthorized settlements, it doesn't seem likely that they want a ceasefire. And of course, most importantly, secondly, on a world stage, Qatar is a major US Ally. The biggest US Base in the Middle East, Al U daid, is a 10,000 troop base in Qatar. So if the US did endorse this strike happening on Qatari sovereign territory, there's going to be some pretty serious conversations to be had, you know, with their US Allies about that being allowed.
- [07:25]
B
Well, you would think that's the case, Michael, except, and Because Layla has sort of opened the door to the wardrobe in which I keep my tin foil hat. Will now put it on. Is there any chance that there may have been a possibly choreographed aspect to this? The reason I wonder, obviously there is precedent for it. Iran was basically allowed to blow something up in Qatar earlier this year by way of calling the so called 12 day war a draw. Israel is claiming it involved 15 fighter jets, which does not inspire confidence in the air defences of Qatar or indeed Saudi Arabia or whoever else they flew over, unless all those people knew they were coming. And it's not really like most of the Arab world would be terribly upset to see the remaining leadership of Hamas disposed of in one go, is it?
- [08:14]
C
Well, no, I mean, I think mezzo of the Arab world has very little sympathy for Hamas, but it's the way this is being done that I think hugely upsets most of the Arab world. Even very pro Western countries such as Jordan have said that this is a blatant attack on Arab sovereignty and Arab, you know, Arab nations. And I think if it was actually choreographed, that would be very foolish and very unfortunate of the American because as Liz said, I mean, this is a key American base and all American friendly countries in the Gulf begin to wonder what's the value of having this alliance with the United States and what is the point of that? I think it's more likely that the Israelis simply informed the Americans who didn't sort of react one way or the other. Partly that's because if you are going to start flying fighter jets all around the region, the Americans would be a bit alarmed if they didn't know where these jets were going or what they were for. So I think they probably did tell them. But I think, well, frankly, my view is that it simply shows the Israelis have absolutely no interest in any sort of peace deal and they're determined to smash Hamas, whatever the cost. And I'm afraid the cost is possibly the lives of the hostages.
- [09:23]
B
But to go back to those condemnations that we have heard, Leila, from Jordan and from elsewhere, do they remind you a bit of similar condemnations somewhat phoned in, pro forma condemnations we have heard in the last couple of years of Arab capitals at least saying, oh no, don't target Hamas and Hezbollah, that would be terrible, it's the last thing we want.
- [09:47]
A
You know what? They actually don't. There's been a lot of movement, particularly in the last year. So just to go back a little bit, you know, there used to be a lot of criticism of Qatar for hosting Hamas political representatives. And then of course, they're the only way there's been a possibility to have negotiations in the last couple of years. Qatar has really stepped up as the kind of grown up in the region, hosting multiple peace talks for multiple different conflicts and in the Arab world who for a long time have been looking for a leader that is not a Western country. Right. Arab nations, both people and leaderships, desperately want somebody who is a grown up. Saudi Arabia sometimes steps in, but of course got some pretty, you know, concerning human rights abuses there. Also a lot of financial interests there. They haven't necessarily behaved very well in countries like Yemen. So having a country that actually looks like it's taking moral leadership, that it isn't an incredibly oppressive military dictatorship like Egypt, which is the other person that's taken a role here, actually has been very positive for people in the region and they've been really keen to see that happening. So this is very different from that orchestrated strike which kind of brought to an end the Israel, Iran conflict in which, you know, it was all pre advertised and it was sort of a tit for tat. And the Qataris expressed their annoyance about it, but had been, you know, pre warned. This is with, no, certainly not for the Qataris, with no warning, a direct strike on area where there could easily have been Qatari civilians. Right. And it absolutely is Qatar's sovereign territory. You know, and as we were just saying that the real key here is the fact that Israel is at this point acting with complete impunity in multiple countries. Not even, you know, not even talking about Gaza City right now, where every single international organization or Western government is begging them to agree to a ceasefire and not displace a million people again for the 10th time who have nowhere to go. Not even talking about the west bank where they are endorsing multiple illegal settlements in the face of, of any form of potential two state solution. Not even talking about Lebanon, which they've once again killed several people in Lebanon today, having not withdrawn the way they were supposed to after the end of the war last year. Not even talking about Yemen, not even talking about all the multiple countries they're striking. So really the feeling now is that it sort of doesn't matter what you say to the Israeli leadership, they're not interested in engaging with anyone. And that is very concerning. And for these Arab nations who feel many of them that they have, have negotiated with the US, that they've tried to work through this process and really they're not getting anything back either on Gaza or on Anything else. This is a really concerning escalation. And if, if the US allows this to pass without any form of kind of at least, you know, tapping Benjamin Netanyahu on the shoulder and saying, hey, let's not do that, that's going to be very difficult in terms of their relationship moving forward, whether it's about this Hamas negotiation or, or simply respect for these Arab countries which do abide by the rules that Western democracies want them to.
- [12:40]
B
Well, we will have much more on this across all our programs tomorrow, of course, but now to France, where there is a political crisis, and yes, later in the show, to the Vatican, where there is Catholicism. The office of Prime Minister of France has in recent times become the political equivalent of SPINAL taps DRUMSTOOL as of yesterday's unloading of Francois Bairu by way of a no confidence vote in the National Assembly, President Emmanuel Macron is now looking for his fifth Prime Minister since January last year. The ushering of Beirut to the door by the assorted non macronist factions in the national assembly appears to have been enacted at least partly in the hope of encouraging Macron to call an early presidential election. Though as of this broadcast, he is insisting he will stay until he has to go in 2027. Michael, is this one of those stories where it's actually more interesting to ask the somewhat counterintuitive question which are we actually more surprised that Beirut lasted as long as he did?
- [13:38]
C
Well, yes. I mean, given the fact that the key thing he's got to do is cut France's debts and cut its spending. And the key thing that those in the assembly, both on the right and the left, seem completely intransigent about is they do not want any cuts in social securities, in the benefits that France enjoys immensely, more than it can afford, or in any cut to the number of holidays they have, or any kind of tightening of the belt. And the fact that Bairu even began to put forward a budget that really was attempting to bring France back into line and cut its huge debts meant that you just got the same intransigence again. He sort of said to them on his farewell speech, well, good luck. You've still got the problems there, and what are you going to do? And I can't see, even if he did resign, which would seem to me unlikely and also unprecedented and unnecessary, if he resigned, Macron would. I mean, he's not there to fix the budget and nor would a successor be. That's the government's job, the Prime Minister's job. So I can't See that he'll resign. And I can't see that France finds any way of getting out of this unless they knuckle down and face the fact they're broke.
- [14:51]
B
Well, indeed. So France's public debt, Leila, is 114% of GDP. And I'm not an economist, but that sounds bad. Running some numbers that turns out to be around €50,000 per French citizen. Um, it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do to tell the people of a prosperous, functional 21st century nation, is it? That you can't all retire in your early 60s anymore. The state pension was never conceived as a means to underwrite 30 year long holidays for people. The idea was had at a time when most people didn't make it to 60.
- [15:29]
A
Well, I say this as a former employee of a French company who worked in a war zone and found it extremely difficult to get in touch with anybody for, for three months every summer when pretty major conflicts were going on. And I have previously lived in France. Look, France has a major cultural issue here, right? Europe, on both sides has in the last few decades, countries have made a choice. Do they want to be economically successful or do they want to sort of preserve, you know, a lovely, laid back Central European culture. And by and large, citizens have accepted either one of those deals. France is one of the few where they want both. And you can't maintain that, particularly not in today's economy. Now, you know, the really major issue here is that there is no point trying to bring in yet another government, you know, which will be the third since the snap election, without changing any of the fundamental issues. Right? Macron has a few choices. Does he want to bring in? You know, a few names have been thrown up. The Defense Minister, who perhaps is probably most on board with the reforms that he wants to impose. But how's he going to do that when the national assembly will not agree to put those things in the 2026 budget? Or he can go for somebody like the Economy Minister who might know what he's talking about. But his problem is that he's close to the left who are very angry that last year, even though they won the most votes in the last parliamentary election, still Macron did not choose somebody who's friendly to the left. And you know, the assembly is pretty evenly divided between the hard right, the center and the hard left. So unless you actually start to reform some of the base issues and how he goes about that, you know, enormously complicated, just trying to pick someone else and hope they'll do better, is, you Know, very unlikely to succeed. And actually, funnily enough, the comparison I would draw is a country that Macron and the French love very much, which is Lebanon, which has seen this so many times over so many years, repeatedly just had failed government after failed government and decided to just find someone else and see if they can do anything about it without reforming, you know, any of the economic issues, without reforming industry, without reforming corruption, without reforming tax evasion, all these issues that they needed to sort out. And we are actually seeing finally now that this new government has been willing to make some pretty difficult decisions, you know, and finally start making some of those reforms that the, the IMF wants and things like that, we're finally starting to see a bit of progress. So, unfortunately, I think he needs to go back to basics to decide firstly, whether he is even the man to do this. He has two years left on this second term, you know, he can't stand again after that. Or does he just call the presidential election and decide, you know, that he actually isn't the man to be able to reform France's economy if he can't find somebody who's able to actually put together a budget that will be accepted for 2026?
- [18:10]
B
Because he does have a number of problems as he tries to figure out a way through this, doesn't he, Michael? One is the possibility he could call another snap parliamentary election. Easy for me to say, but there is absolutely no guarantee that. That to return a remotely more cooperative National Assembly. The other problem he has, I think, at least as I understand it, in that trying to the people from whom he can choose a new prime minister, quite a lot of them might fancy their chances of the top job in 2027 and don't want to start their campaign by getting put in charge of a completely unruly national assembly and tossed out of a gig in six weeks.
- [18:49]
C
Well, exactly, yes. I mean, before she was disqualified, this was the same with Marine Le Pen. I mean, she now, apparently, unless she wins her appeal, she can't stand for President when it comes. But until then, she was very reluctant to get involved in putting herself forward for any sort of position so that she wouldn't ruin her chances of running for President. She can't do that. But even her putative prime minister, the young fellow who's only being groomed as her possible successor, I mean, whether he will step up to it if asked. I don't think they'll be asked. I mean, they would never win the majority, they would never win enough votes, nor would the left to form A coalition of some kind. So really, we're stuck. We're stuck because none of them can win. Macron might say, well, let's just have another election. I agree with you. It would probably yield exactly the same result. You'd get the same deadlock, and you'd get the same three blocks, center, left and right, all uncompromising and unwilling to work with each other. And then you think, well, what will happen? Well, of course, the French reaction is one that is so impossibly French, you think, well, goodness me, they've decided to go on strike. And going on strike of course, is. Well, if they think that's the way to get out of the problem.
- [20:01]
B
Have another think, just finally, on President Macron's many dilemmas. Leila is there in terms of the possibility of an early presidential election, and I think that is outstandingly unlikely, not least because, as you say, he doesn't have to go anywhere until 2027 and he can't run again, so he might as well make the most of it. But he does also have to grapple with the poss that if he goes early, there is a definite non zero chance that he is enabling his own succession by somebody of either France's cranky left, who are extremely unlikely to want to address the economic difficulties, or perhaps more likely, France's cranky right, which would be bad news on a number of fronts.
- [20:44]
A
Well, I mean, the issue here is, does he want to help the country or does he want to ensure his legacy? Right. Realistically, if he wants to ensure his legacy, either he steps down and throws it to the wolves and says, I did my best, or he tries to push through, you know, saying that whether or not you agree, these are the budgetary reforms that I believe in, and he does his best for the next couple of years. He certainly isn't having helpful conversations really politically with anyone, you know, on the interior. So he hasn't. He doesn't have sort of like a natural successor who he seems to believe, believe is going to be able to carry forward his reforms. And fundamentally, when you have a country that's so heavily divided, I mean, really socially divided, right. When you, when you look at France at the moment, you have this massive contrast. And of course, it's most astute in Paris, most acute in Paris. Sorry, where? In the center, you know, you have a very wealthy white majority who essentially feels they've been invaded by immigrants on the outside, you know, you have young men going around filming immigrants now in the Bonya with their cameras saying, look, we've been invaded by these animals. Of course, we've still got the border issue in Calais, you know, and of course that's to do with foreign relationships and the belief that the UK is encouraging immigrants to kind of try and cross through France and do these dangerous channel crossings. The reality is that if you're either playing into the hands of a group of people who don't want anything to change, you know, essentially want to live a comfortable life, as you said, without actually having to work for it, and I sound much more perhaps economically harsh than I would generally believe myself to be as a liberal, you know, that's realistically not going to leave the country to found. On the other hand, there is incredibly dangerous environment in Europe right now in which it's so easy to play into the hands of the right, it's so easy to make the weakest and most vulnerable the victims and the targets of people who are angry about really economic conditions that they have mostly created for themselves. And he certainly doesn't want that to be his legacy. So my personal feeling would be that he tries to strive on because actually just leaving the situation as it is now is much more likely to end up in that kind of conflagration and potentially many more strikes.
- [22:48]
C
One small thing, well, a big thing really. This is disastrous for France's foreign policy, particularly for unity with the others in the EU in confronting Russian aggression in Ukraine. They haven't the money for the defence increase that they promised. They haven't the money for really doing anything much. And when you have no credibility home, your standing abroad falls catastrophically well.
- [23:11]
B
On which subject to the United States and the ever lengthening list of things it appears to have given up on that list already, including the security of the free world, disease prevention, the climate, and even pretending the President wasn't the best friend of a child sex trafficker. America's European allies, if that still is the phrase, are in receipt of a notice from the US State Department to the effect that the US can no longer be bothered participating in joint efforts to combat disinformation from Russia, China, Iran and other countries which may not necessarily have the best interests of the free world at heart. Layli, we couldn't probably really say that this, this specifically being the demise of something called the Global Engagement Centre is all that surprising, is it?
- [23:55]
A
So here's what I would say. The demise of the Global Engagement Centre is not at all surprising. It's completely in line with the destruction of USAID, the destruction of essentially all U.S. soft foreign policy that has existed since the 60s, 60s, right. I have watched as essentially the world order as we know it, and certainly the sort of aid and foreign and foreign policy and, you know, soft power world as we know it has collapsed. You know, the USAID funded 75% of aid organizations around the world of the UN of all of these things. And people are dying and everyone is suffering in the same way, you know, Radio Free Liberty Europe, Europe, which was set up essentially, you know, to counter Soviet influence in the Cold War and has incredibly hard working journalists around the world working for it, has been completely shut down. What an easy way to sort of ferment positive feelings about the west, which has just been completely destroyed. So all of that makes sense in terms of the fact that essentially this administration has decided to tear it all down. Burn it all down, in fact. And one of the men responsible for it, you know, came out saying when the Global Engagement center was shut, we didn't just want to get rid of one of their programs, we were delighted to pull the plug on the entire thing. And so that all makes sense. What makes much less sense is that this particular agreement plays exactly into the hands of Trump's foreign policy, that the specific idea was to counter disinformation from Russia, China and Iran, the three big bugaboos for Trump. Right. So, so it really doesn't make sense that a way in which they could practically counter potential disinformation and involvement from those governments and from malign acts in those governments would be, would have the plug pulled on it, because it's one of the things that they could have defended to their voters, you know, that actually this is very important. Realistically. The answer is probably that they don't want to focus on disinformation. There is so much disinformation coming out of the Trump administration itself, coming out of, of truth social, coming out of all these new kind of media arms, either related to the Trump administration or from this general sort of MAGA influenced environment that actually any sort of focus on really finding the truth and really unveiling trolls and bot farms, et cetera, is something that they don't want any attention paid to, let alone any money spent on.
- [26:20]
B
Is this something else, Michael, that Europe is going to have to do on its own?
- [26:24]
C
Yes, I think so. Europe does a certain amount. I mean, I mean, the good old BBC has a long and noble record of putting out what it feels is objective truth to counter the kind of propaganda that has been coming across the airwaves for many countries for many years. There isn't the money There isn't quite the commitment now. There isn't really an effective way of beaming news to Russia or to other places that they used to be. And I sort of. Many people think, well, what's the point? Because actually, actually much more effective now are social media and that's where people get their news. They don't listen really much to radio or watch television, the same way that people just look at their phones to try to find out what's happening. And maybe effort should go there, but it's so multifaceted. There are so many different ways that this could be done that there's no kind of central thinking about how should we actually counter disinformation. I think think there's an attempt to make sure that Britain itself isn't subject or isn't convinced by some of the lies coming from overseas. They've tried to close down some of the broadcasts coming from directly from Russia that were seen to be non objective. But frankly, I think it's, it's the finger in the dike. I mean, you're trying to hold, hold back a huge waterfall of, of disinformation coming from all sources.
- [27:46]
B
Well, to Warsaw. And in also kind of related developments, a recognition that there is no better laboratory than public transport for observing the 21st century decline in literacy and, one might well argue, a related dwindling of basic standards of civic behaviour. An attempt is being made to get commuters to cease gawping into their phones and instead read a book. Something which, according to recent research, only 40% of Polish adults did last year. And before anybody tries being clever, that figure is just 60% in the UK, barely 50%, 50% in the US. And that all has to be adjusted for the fact that many people will not cheerfully pronounce themselves unlettered troglodytes to inquiring pollsters. In a new metro station in Warsaw, a library has been opened. Leila, we have seen the pictures. It looks absolutely lovely. There's 16,000 books. There's free coffee and hot chocolate. There's a hydroponic wall garden. Will people use it, do you think?
- [28:44]
A
Well, for anyone who isn't aware, Poles are so cool. I mean, really, it's very interesting, that kind of design aesthetic. Look, I very much hope they do. I think this really speaks to me. And that's the original story of kind of British literature, you know, the idea of Penguin books and, you know, the founder just wanted a good book to read on the train. And I think phones, obviously are so necessary, but they've done so Much else. Now I should say that I don't commute because I work from home. So when I am commuting, I'm in a war zone in a flak jacket, calling 20 different people, trying to make sure that, you know, we've set up all the interviews we need for that day. But what I have really noticed in the last few years is that partly because I have to read so much news, partly because I have to read so much non fiction. And when I'm not reading non fiction about my work, I feel guilty. My love for books has faded and my ability, most importantly, to read books has faded. And doctors actually say, see this, that, that your neurons, the way that they fire together, when you're not focusing for a long time on things, actually they start. Your brain starts to develop differently. So what I have started trying to do is create my own commute in the mornings, which is a commute around, around my kitchen, in my office, in which, you know, I make a pot of coffee and I listen to the radio and then I sit down and I read a fiction book for half an hour every morning. And I've started that this year. And I am so much happier as a human being than I have been in the last few years. And the world is worse and my job is more traumatizing than it's ever been. But having that time, being in a good book, I've got my book sitting right there in my bag right now, and I will be reading it on the way home, whether it's a walk or a bus or a taxi or however it is I'm getting home. So I really hope people do, and I really hope that. Not that they need a place to go and find a book, but seeing it there reminds them of that and maybe even makes them think, why don't I sit in this beautiful place, place with plants and gorgeous books around and just take some time for myself to allow my brain to escape somewhere?
- [30:45]
B
Because, Michael, I. I am a. I am a reader on trains and planes and tubes and stuff, because it is. I mean, I actually kind of look forward to the commute as such, because it is one of the few times of a day at which I don't actually think there's something more I should. Something else I should be doing other than reading. But it's hard not to notice that almost nobody does on the tube anymore.
- [31:08]
C
Yes. And particularly nobody read newspapers. I mean, when I started commuting, you know, in every morning, the newspaper beside me would be full, opened out, and all around people were Looking at the news and as was I, and as I still do. I read the newspaper on the train. I'm the only one carrying a newspaper. I mean, nobody under 30 even buys one, let alone reads it. And it's rather sad. I have still seen people reading books. Not a lot, but people. I'm talking about commuting on trains, particularly the London Underground in the tube. And I'm sure that's probably true in any big city where you have a train or bus journey to work where you can sit and read, obviously, if you're just driving and you listen to ipods or whatever it might be or you know, podcasts or anything. But reading is a luxury of those who have transport provided for you, public transport. And sadly, people don't read.
- [32:03]
B
Indeed they don't. And Leila, it's. It's a global problem. But how big a global problem is it? Have we yet actually fully understood what a post literate world is going to look like? Here in the UK, according to YouGov's last survey, only 23% of people claim to have read at least 10 books in the last year. And again, I think we have to assume this is one of those subjects about which people lie absolutely flagrantly so even adjusted for that, people who actually read out of habit or regularly are a. It's maybe one in five if we're lucky.
- [32:40]
A
It is. And you know, and I actually, as somebody who likes to talk about books, have unintentionally caught people out on this in the past because you'll say, you know, have you read this? And they say, oh yes. And you start talking about urine is very quickly, they either haven't finished it, and I actually recently made friends with somebody who I deeply admire and respect and find very exciting and interesting and she does not read. Proudly says she does not read, can't remember, hasn't read a book since school, not interested. And I find that so difficult to deal with and partly on the emotional level, you know, I mean I am somebody who grew up around books, books on every stair. You know, the first thing I did when I moved into my flat was had built in, you know, bookshelves and that they're my treasure. But also for kids, you know, I mean we've already seen huge problems with kids being unable to handle right and these kind of issues. And the reality is, you know, I wasn't a good kid. I was quite a wild kid. I think I was bored at school. You know, there were a lot of problems at my school. I ran with quite a wild crowd. And it was really books that were, that sort of saved me and, and put me on the path that I spent my life on. And I would remember, you know, I'd be sent to bed and then my father would always find me under the duvet at 2am with, with a torch reading my book. And he'd let me get away with it because he was happy I was reading. But the reality is that if I hadn't had that world of books and, and the focus with which to read them and not had a smartphone put in my hand till I was 22, I don't know if I would have had the life I've had. I don't know if I'd have the literacy I have. I don't know if I've had the intellect. I have all of these things that have made my life what it is. And I feel that children are being deprived of that because, because there doesn't seem to be any effort to create spaces in which they are deprived of technology and they actually have the time and the love to focus on books.
- [34:28]
C
I think one of the significant things, a sign of the times is that you can buy the bluffer's guide to books you haven't read now. It gives you the plot, tells you what to remark on, tells you how to sound wise and opinionated even if you haven't read the book. I mean, there you are, you see.
- [34:43]
B
People don't bother on that. Happy thought. Michael Binion and Leila Malana Allen, thanks both for joining us. Finally on today's show, London's Royal Court Theatre Theater hosts a world premiere with the new play Deaf Republic. Adapted from the poems of Ukrainian American author Ilya Kaminsky, it tells the story of an occupied town that goes deaf when a local child is shot by soldiers. The world renowned Irish theatre company, Dead center, has collaborated with sign language poet Zoe McWhinney to weave spoken English, British Sign language, creative captioning and silence to tell an epic modern fable of humanity, war and collective resistance. Ahead of the show, Monocle's Maylee Evans met the co director and author Bush Mukazal, who began sharing why the original text was so appealing to adopt.
- [35:29]
D
The language that Ilya uses in the poem is drawn from theater. The characters are listed at the start as dramatis personae. There's a puppet theater running throughout as one of the big storytelling elements. He uses the storytelling strategies of theater to frame his his poem. So in that way it was asking for a staging. The story is a occupied territory in a Fictional place called Vasenka. A deaf boy is shot by a soldier at a moment when he can't hear these orders. Strangely, surprisingly, magically, perhaps the next morning, the whole town go deaf. That gesture becomes a sort of act of resistance and solidarity and becomes increasingly frustrating to the occupying army. So that story is extraordinary, but it's also quite simple. When we were first reading the poems, in a way you're like, okay, the story is great, but that's not the force of this event, this writing. It's this form, the language where that takes you. That was the challenge. Could we find a way that we could, by stealth, get poetry into an evening of narrative theatre? Sign language plays a big role. The team is made up of deaf artists, hearing artists, signers. Some people have never signed before, but who are now signing in the show. Sign language is part of Ilya's storytelling in the poems that needed to take center stage of our adaptation. In a visual medium like theatre, signing can become a vehicle of communication, communication and expression that is central to the way we're adapting it. My other authors are Ben Kidd, who is a hearing writer who works with me through working with Zoe McWhinney, who's a deaf performer and poet. There's a version of signing called Visual Vernacular. But also just her poetic relationship with signing. She has made the signing a sort of central and striking part of the.
- [37:36]
A
Evening for many people. Sign language or accessibility tours is almost like bolted on at the end, but this feels like we're bringing a way of communication right at the heart of the making for this project.
- [37:48]
D
When you go to the theatre and there's certain expectations about how the evening might be, you might have somebody telling or an announcement telling to turn off your mobile phones, there might be a curtain that raises at the start, there might be an interval. So there's certain formalities of theatre process which are then useful to play with, upend people's expectations. The idea of accessible theatre and having somebody sign interpreting a shot happens, but it is usually sidelined and is kind of an add on. So it's fun to invert that and have the speaking as an add on, as it were. Something that's hopefully seen to be a slight inconvenience to the deaf audience who would see a spoken language getting in the way of the pure form of the evening.
- [38:46]
A
Deaf Republic came out in 2019 with conflicts happening across the world. It feels like it could have been been written last week. And so I wondered a bit about the conversations happening in that rehearsal room as you're building that world for the stage and what aspects really felt pertinent to today's world.
- [39:04]
D
Ilya Kaminsky is a Ukrainian American author who was born in Odessa, moved to America when he was young. I think this fictional town of Vasenka evokes Odessa and some of the characters and episodes drawn from biographical events and people in his life. But he intentionally created a work of fiction which could have this universal Appeal. In early 2022, when we were starting our development, a month later, the full scale invasion happened from Russia into Ukraine.
- [39:38]
B
The onslaught began just before dawn with a barrage of missiles on multiple targets right across the country.
- [39:47]
D
Of course, it was on our mind immediately. Oh, should we put pause on this? Is this our story to tell? And then we went back to the poem and we're reminded that he did not want to write this directly as a piece of reported storytelling of Ukraine directly, but he wanted to draw from that, to tell a story that could resonate with different contexts and different conflicts around the world. So we were in a position where we go, okay, in that sense, we do have an obligation because most wars now are world wars. As we know. There's not really a war where any country is not involved in some way or complicit in some way on a government level, but even the citizens. That was our access point to understand that this isn't a uniquely Ukrainian story. The question about what are you trying to say when you make make a work like this? I don't think theater can stop war. I don't think it can change the world. What is being fought over is culture and identity, and that's what's being defended or being attacked. There's a moment in the script where a character is describing how sign language functions to another character who's just learning. She explains that in sign language you have to take a position. There's no such thing as just shooting or dying. Who's doing the shooting and who's doing the dying? And that's how signing works. So the implication being that you can't just tell a story, you're in the story and that everybody's in the story. So it becomes a sort of ethic of storytelling. And that's something we hope to land in our adaptation.
- [41:26]
B
That report from May Lee Evans, Deaf Republic, is at the Royal Court Theatre in London until September 13, before touring to Dublin Theatre Festival in October. That is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Leila Malana Allen and Michael Binion. Today's show was produced by Monica Lillis and researched by Danielle Lebro Smith. Our sound engineer was Steph Chungu. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [41:59]
C
Sam.