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The Monocle Daily
Qatar hosts Gulf talks amid a ‘serious escalation’ threatening vital supply routes
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- [00:00]
Julie Norman
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first
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Daniella Peled
broadcast on 12th May, 2026 on Monocle Radio.
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Andrew Muller
Will the Gulf stay blocked behind the Strait of Hormuz forever? Is Ukraine at last winning its war with Russia? And the US declassifies hundreds of files on alien encounters. But were they worth classifying in the first place? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts. Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Daniella Peled and James Rogers will discuss the day's big stories. And we'll hear from regular Daily guest Julie Norman about the play of her recent book about Gaza. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Daniella Peled, Managing Editor of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, and James Rogers, Associate professor of International Journalism at City University of London. Hello to you both.
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Daniella Peled
Hello.
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Andrew Muller
Hi, Daniela. As regular listeners will already be bracing themselves to expect, you come to us bearing tales of journeys in arcane local history.
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Daniella Peled
Absolutely. And once again, London is the city and the gift that keeps on giving. My most recent venture was to the Museum of the Order of St. John.
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Andrew Muller
Which St. John is this? Aren't there several of them?
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Daniella Peled
Yeah. And this is a kind of wonderful combination of all of them. There's the Order of St John of Hospitallers and the. The Crusadery Knights from Jerusalem and from Jerusalem and Acre and Malta. And then there's also the St. John Ambulance, which actually, when you go to the museum of their order, are a lot, much more glamorous than you might imagine.
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Andrew Muller
So what actual attractions does this museum boast?
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Daniella Peled
It boasts a 14th century gatehouse.
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Andrew Muller
Amazing.
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Daniella Peled
And a 12th century crypt. And the site of the first ever magazine and James Boswell and all kinds of. All kinds of cool stuff. I mean, niche. I do, I do confess, James, you
- [02:24]
Andrew Muller
have recently been attempting to travel under the exciting new regimen.
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James Rogers
Yes, I have. I mean, as a non EU citizen travelling to the European Union, I mean, I have to say, to be fair to it, worked very, very well. It's frustrating as something that I've been to Denmark twice in the last couple of weeks and, you know, a system that used to mean weight of a matter of a few minutes took considerably longer this time. I'm just wondering, you know, there have been lots of reports in the media here in the UK about how long it's going to take for people to get on holiday and back in the this summer and there've been horror stories of people missing flights and things like that. And so it's just. But I mean it did say that it looked as if it might work better in the future in the sense there were lots of machines lined up but not yet online. So we'll see. But it was, the first time was just for a sort of personal visit and the second time was something rather more urgent. So that was a bit more frustrating.
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Andrew Muller
Well, we will start in the Persian Gulf and with the latest expression by the Gulf states of ardent and understandable wishes that it would all just stop. Qatar's Prime Minister, Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdul Rahman Al Thani said earlier today at a joint appearance with Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Firan that Iran must desist from weaponizing the Strait of Hormuz, noting correctly that it is an international waterway over which Iran has no legal jurisdiction. Iran's response could be summarized as ya boo sucks. Who's going to make us? Iran's response to the latest pictures of a peace plan has been to demand sovereignty over the Strait of Hormuz and that the United States and Israel pay for everything they have recently broken. Daniel, are the Iranians just amusing themselves build at this point?
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Daniella Peled
The Iranians are pretty good at negotiating. I mean, I don't know if anyone's noticed this as well. They have maximalist demands and they have, you know, they have, they're not backward at coming forward. I mean, I think also as well, this characterization of a peace deal is a bit of a misnomer. I mean this is sort of peace is going to be at the best, it's going to be peace as the absence of, of war or even skirmishes. This isn't a peace deal where we're talking about reconciling great nations or collaboration or let alone sort of human peace between, between different nations. This is just stumbling out of a conflagration which hasn't really achieved the end that it might have been supposed to, although nobody really knows what, what, what they are. And the Iranians are ended up in a, in a position where they can say no, we want you to pay for everything, which is. Seems extremely unrealistic and, and we're still in charge. Thanks very much.
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Andrew Muller
I mean, is the reality, James, that the upshot of this war, at least so far, is that it has conceded effectively the Strait of Hormuz to Iran?
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James Rogers
Well, it seems to be a consequence of it, doesn't it? And I was reading one report today on Reuters news agency quoting an Iranian news agency saying that a member of the Revolutionary Guard, a senior officer of the Revolutionary Guard, said, well, actually from now on, we're going to define the Strait of Hormuz as a considerably larger area than had been previously thought. So not only, as Daniela said, maximalist demand and in practice, yes, you know, this is the way that things are and I think, you know, while there's talk, you know, the fact that the fighting has stopped for now has to be welcome. But I do note that Trump talked about it being this deal being on life support this morning and described the Iranian counter proposals as garbage, which is hardly the basis for the kind of, you know, epoch era defining agreement that he sort of hinted at on previous occasions in the last few weeks. So, and you know, there are major concerns here. We've already seen the oil price rises and you know, there are real concerns, you know, in Europe and other parts of the world about the dwindling stocks of fuel supplies.
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Andrew Muller
I mean, Trump actually said, Daniela, that the ceasefire was on massive life support, which is obviously the very worst kind of life support if you are the United States though, is there actually, from a strategic point of view, I mean, actually trying to advance your cause, seek a resolution rather than give vent to what by now I suspect is considerable irritation. Is there actually anything to be said for flying back over Iran and blowing up a bunch more stuff?
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Daniella Peled
Well, it didn't achieve the war aims the first time round, if we define war aims as regime change for a more sort of pliant and pliable regime or complete destruction of any possibility of Iran having nuclear weapons or remaking the entire Middle east in a more favorable way. And also it's just super, super unpopular at home. I mean, this is. Trump was supposed to be the president that didn't, you know, ended these foreign advent. We heard, you know, that we've had the enormous cost of this adventure so far, so I can't really see any advantage apart from saving face. And the wide ranging diplomatic impact on the Gulf is also pretty severe and there's a global impact and the regional impact is really not clear as well. I mean, the Israelis, I think are quite keen to keep on keeping on and they show no sign of simmering down in Lebanon either. But from the American point of view, I'm trying to do mental gymnastics and see how this could be in their benefit. But, yeah, I've got nothing.
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Andrew Muller
James, a question I have for you, which does go a bit to your experience of reporting from Russia, the Soviet Union, etc, is. Are we under undervaluing the frailty of at least one of the decision makers here, that is US President Trump. It does strike me as a thing that American media often skates over because they don't really know what to do with it. But just for example, last night on social media, President Trump posted 55 times in three hours, possibly not unrelatedly to his nocturnal blurtings, he is fairly regularly falling asleep in public. How big a factor is that in what is or isn't occurring?
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James Rogers
That's a really interesting question, actually, because, I mean, it was one of the factors in the late Soviet years and there was a succession of leaders who were so old and in poor health that there was a great change of leadership. But of course, it was the big reformer who came after that who actually led to the collapse of the entire system. I think the real problem here, and Daniela has alluded to this, is the lack of strategy. It was never clear what the purpose of this war was going to be, and it's never clear how it was going to look when it ended. And that may well be, you know, Donald Trump has proved himself masterful at winning his first term when nobody expected it, at winning a second term when people seemed in way more to expect it, and has sort of, in consequence of his second term, has decided really to go for some policies that people would have thought would be absolutely outlandish before, not necessarily popular at home, this war. But that may well be a factor. And you do worry, you know, about a leader who is spending half the night on social media and if the accounts of his first term are to be believed, never actually reading a policy brief.
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Andrew Muller
Daniela, just finally on this, and this is something that Trump has telegraphed slash tested. What actually does happen if he just declares victory and wanders off?
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Daniella Peled
I mean, you know, why not? I mean, it's not, it's not implausible. I mean, we had victory kind of in Venezuela, although there, there was some degree, you know, of what were, of the sort of aims that were achieved. And I think that also, that plays fine with his constituency as well. If we're talking about post, post truth era, why not say, yeah, we won, everything is great, we have all of these gains. You can point to them whether they're, they're real or not. And, you know, Iran is not going to give him a ladder to climb down because Iran's surv survival has been its own victory.
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James Rogers
Yeah, well, that's the thing. I mean, if he declares victory and wanders off, then, you know, Iran stays in charge of The Straits of Hormuz, possibly even on this more enlarged scale that this Revolutionary Guard office has been hinting at. And the price of petrol and gas and US gas guzzling cars continues to rise.
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Andrew Muller
Well, sticking with the theme of superpowers embarking on ill advised military adventures on the assumption that this will only take a few days, how hard can it be? Et cetera. There is gathering consensus that Russia's 72 hour oper operation to subjugate Ukraine is 51 months in starting to unravel. This past weekend's Victory Day parade in Moscow was notably underwhelming due to a shortage of undestroyed Russian armour. And Russian casualties on the front are now reported at over 1,000 per day. That is faster than reinforcements can be press ganged. In the last month, Russia is assessed to have lost 113 square kilometres of the Ukrainian territory to which it was still clinging. James, first of all, much comment on the truncated Victory Day and also much interest in Putin's expression afterwards that he said the special military operation, as he still calls it, was moving towards its end. Obviously this is the very height of wishful thinking, but do you divine any suggestion that Putin is starting to think the jig might be up?
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James Rogers
No, I don't. I mean, I think he's, he's, he's, you know, you mentioned, and it's always worth reminding listeners this was supposed to last for 72 hours. I think that's a really, really valid point that we can't emphasize enough really in that sense. You know, Victory Day was an absolute disaster for Putin. I mean, I watched it and I've been there, you know, when I was a correspondent in Moscow. I was actually there in 2008, the first time they famously reintroduced military hardware to the parade. And it was very odd watching the TV feed this time on Saturday because when normally they'd have had this, you had videos. And so I get which. And these videos at the same time. And I was thinking, well, I wonder what's happening on Red Square? Well, these videos are being on the broadcast feed and they were just being shown on big screens and they were sort of, you know, idealized videos of the forces in action, the special military operation, it was so frequently referred to, I think what Russia is not on the verge of crumbling, but I think the Russian effort really is stalling. And I think if there's figures of losses and we have to remember that they're mostly put out by the themselves and backed up by Western intelligence agencies. But there's no reason to believe that they're not very, very high. And so it is a big, big problem. And this is, you know, this was never the way it was supposed to be. Talking of parades, by the way, you know, in that 72 hours thing, let's also not forget those stories of Russian soldiers having dress uniforms in their backpacks when they first escalated the war, because they were supposed to have a victory parade in Kyiv a few days later. And we couldn't be further from that more than four years on.
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Andrew Muller
Daniel, this is all being accomplished by Ukraine with a marked withdraw or drawdown of American assistance since President Trump was returned to office. Is there a wider lesson for Europe here that maybe the United States, it turns out, isn't actually as vital to Ukraine, to Ukrainian and European security as we might have believed, Perhaps in much the same way that Russia's conventional forces are not quite the threat that we may have imagined.
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Daniella Peled
Yeah. The thing is, Ukraine is a, is an astonishing example, though, of human resilience. And I'm not sure that you could count on recreating that in other circumstances. I mean, it's really, really phenomenal how the country has, has kept going on, on every level. And also the way that they've sort of pivoted to use drone warfare in this incredibly creative way. I, I, I, I, I, I think alliance are still as important as ever. I mean, Europe has to face the realities that perhaps they have to be remade. But, you know, Ukraine, the people of Ukraine are being super resilient and not giving up, but they have got assistance and they are being supported by, by their allies, where we really come into serious problems that if we have this, we're talking about the war coming to an end, and we can see these vulnerabilities opening up with Russia. But there is a gap for a power which we thought would be the United States that will come in and say, right, these are the parameters and this is how we're going to move forward. And I think that's what's missing here. I mean, look, Putin is going to declare victory whatever happens, just like the Iranians will and just like Trump will in that particular conflict. But we need an interlocutor here who, if not fair, is actually going to have come out with a practical solution that neither side is going to be 100% behind. And that's where we really, really are WOB and I can't see a natural replacement. Despite all the European goodwill, we've still got a real vacuum there.
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Andrew Muller
Well, Putin, as we discussed on yesterday's program, James, did suggest Gerhard Schroeder. But I think that may have been a rare twinkle of Putin's sense of humor there. You did mention that you didn't anticipate some catastrophic unraveling of Russian troops, Russian morale, et cetera. But is that really unimaginable? I should look this up because I'm forever citing this rule, and I forget the person who coined it, apologies to them if they're listening. But it is, it is the, the wisdom that when something can't go on, it won't.
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James Rogers
Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, I think we're probably heading towards some sort of stalemate. I can't see the, the problem that Putin has got politically, you know, and we're talking about the control of territory. Let's not forget Russia has formally annexed or declared and said in the constitution of the Russian Federation, these four regions of Ukraine are part of the Russian Federation. It's very diffic Putin to settle for anything less than. And he's never had control of those, by the way. No. In total. In totality. So it's very difficult for him to settle in the same way that it is difficult for the Ukrainians to settle, you know, for giving up any land, which was an idea that was sort of mooted by Trump a few months ago. So the reason why I don't sort of see an end to this is there are no outlines for a plausible settlement. There are outlines for a possible ceasefire or, you know, cessation of hostilities that may last weeks or months. But a longer term solution to this, I think, is absolutely, absolutely not visible at the moment.
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Andrew Muller
I mean, on that subject as well, Daniela, is there perhaps a moment of danger as well as possibility here in that if Ukraine really do think they have the bit between their teeth, it does make them less likely to compromise, perhaps.
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Daniella Peled
I mean, Ukrainians, I'm talking, paying tribute to their resilience. But Ukraine is also tired. The war has taken an incredible toll on the economy on the sort of day to life. And I think we, you know, frozen conflicts or ceasefires or long term settlements. I mean, we see many examples of them actually within Europe as well. This is not ideal, but I think at some point, you know, at some point wars do end, perhaps not satisfactorily, and I think Ukraine can keep going as long as is necessary, but there will come appetite for a solution for their own sakes as well.
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Andrew Muller
I mean, just finally on this, James and Slash. But is it not the case, though? And this is a line that President Zelensky has come Back to repeatedly is that if Russia is allowed to get away with anything, like even if Russia is thrown the bone of, say, Crimea.
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James Rogers
Yeah.
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Andrew Muller
Then that will just store up further trouble. Zelensky's line has always been that Russia needs to lose and needs to be seen to lose.
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James Rogers
Well, that's a very interesting question. It's one I've been. Because I was thinking about a lot about this over the weekend. I was writing article about, you know, how this might go and think about it and I wonder if we are approaching a point at which the Russian losses will have been so big that while they will settle for what they've got in the short medium term, they will not be tempted to try again. That the memory of this, if the losses really are as bad as these figures that we're told are, I've thought all right throughout this war that exactly that, that Ukrainians actually were right to say they have to prevail. But I wonder if they're approaching the point at which they have made the cost of this so high that Russia will not be tempted to try again in five or ten years time. Time after some sort of ceasefire is agreed.
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Andrew Muller
Well, to New Zealand now, where the broadly conservative government of Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is taking steps to protect Kiwi companies from lawsuits seeking to place them on the hook for climate change. At issue in particular is one suit launched by MORI climate activist Michael Smith, who wishes to stick six significant Kiwi enterprises with the bill for damage done to the climate by their production. New Zealand's Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has pledged an end to such shenanigans, claiming doubtless without with reason rather that they are bad for business confidence. Daniela, whose side are you on?
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Daniella Peled
Oh, well, I don't. This whole like damaging business confidence seems to be such a sort of antique argument. It just, you know, just as in the Industrial revolution, I'm sure that they had made the same claim that not sending children up chimneys or to be have their bodies broken in in mills, you know, that would also damage.
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Andrew Muller
That's enough of this weirdo communist.
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Daniella Peled
Yeah, I mean, have we not moved a little beyond that? And it's kind of depressing as well that what you think might be some reasonable acknowledgement that, you know, that climate is an issue has now become part of the culture wars as well. So you have a right wing government is automatically going to clamp down on that, whereas a left wing government is going to promote it. I mean, what about just being kind of sensible? You would think that legal action, you know, court, it's not exactly, you know, direct sort of. No one's storming the barricades here. A few court cases might be quite a reasonable way to make your point.
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Andrew Muller
The culture war thing is an aspect of this, James, which I do wish to return to. But there is a line at large in New Zealand, and I do hear it to a lesser extent in Australia, where I'm from, that for all the environmental conscientiousness of both countries, and it is a considerable political factor in both countries, what difference is any of this going to make? I mean, and there is a line at large in New Zealand, I have noticed people going, look, what difference to anything is one single dairy farmer here in New Zealand, however big by New Zealand standards they are actually going to make?
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James Rogers
Well, that's the thing. I mean, and it's a question. And the minister in this case, in the government has made the point that the courts, he argues that the courts are not the right place to resolve claims. But I mean, maybe so, but activists will say, well, where is then? But it's true. I mean, and it is, you know, it has become an increasingly politicized issue. I mean, it's interesting because of course in this country it is, you know, divided along the left and right lines. But of course it was a conservative prime minister in the late 1980s that first raised the issue of man made climate change in the shape of one Margaret Thatcher. You know, so it wasn't. And we've also had talk of the fact that, you know, there might be some sort of possible marriage of green issues and capitalism, but that has yet to materialize now because clearly, you know, as we were saying, this is, the minister is in effect arguing this is against business interests and therefore against the engine that drives the economy.
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Andrew Muller
But isn't that. And this I guess goes back a bit to what you were saying about the industrial revolution, Daniel, Isn't that a false binary, that we can either have environmental consciousness or we can have a functioning economy because there are people making money out of the energy transition? China, for example, is moving leaps and bounds on solar, wind, other replenishable stuff?
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Daniella Peled
Yeah, I mean, it seems nonsensical to me, especially when you look at the context of New Zealand, which part of its international brand is amazing nature, wonderful environment, unspoiled scenery. So what actually are they going to gain by making this a, a point of contention? It speaks to me of your sort of internal party politics. And, and again, what's being called for is having some corporate responsibility for, for damages. They're not saying Right. Dairy farming. We're all going to have to become vegan and drink matcha lattes now. I mean, the claims seem fairly reasonable from, you know, from scanning them.
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Andrew Muller
So
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Daniella Peled
it damages sort of every aspect of this as well. And again, we're talking about climact. If you say, well, if we can't use the law, what are we going to use? I mean, again, so people are going to storm into things and throw. Throw tomato soup on them, and that just annoys everybody. So I would support them on this legal. This legal challenge.
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Andrew Muller
Well, to the question now of whether we are in fact alone in the United States. The White House has continued its program of releasing all the files except, you know, those ones, by publishing a bunch of stuff, some of it decades old, pertaining to alleged encounters with visitors from elsewhere. If a pattern emerges, it is that aliens, much like apparitions of the Virgin Mary, seem uninterested in pitching up in Times Square on a Friday night where unignorable numbers of people might see and or photograph them. And much keener on descending on some hapless yokel in the middle of nowhere who may recently have been in at the moonshine. In fairness, some sightings of UFOs or in modern parlance UAPs, for unidentified anomalous phenomena, have also been reported by civilian and military pilots. But what we do not have, at least not in this document, died, is anything you might actually regard as evidence. James, have you ever seen a flying saucer or encountered an alien?
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James Rogers
I have not. Andrew, that's a letdown.
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Andrew Muller
I was banking on someone saying no, I'm really sorry. Put pressure's on.
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James Rogers
Danny, I'm really sorry to disappoint you in that. I mean, it's, you know, it's, you know, I'm reminded of that old thing in journalism that, you know, if there's a question mark in the headline, the answer is no, you know, so have astronauts seen that UFOs in space? Probably not. Well, UFOs, yes. Stuff. They don't know what it is. I mean, I did actually, in preparation for our discussion this evening, have a look at a couple of these files, and one that's really stuck in my mind and I shall share it with you now. And this is an account given by Ms. Joyce McFarland. Now, she's not here to give the right of replies, unfortunately, but on the Sunday, the August. Hello, if you're listening, Sunday, Aug. 3, 1947, she was speaking to a federal agent a few days later who's taking down the accounts of this encounter. He said, and she said of the object she saw, it could not have been more than 6 inches in diameter, but it would have been much larger if she had been nearer to it. Well, I'm reminded of that comment. You've probably seen the sick comment. Yeah, with the little toy cow and the cow in the field where the one priest is saying to the other, no, that one's little and that one's far away. That's why they look like the same size. So, I mean, you know, far be it for me to cast doubt upon her as a reliable witness, but it did seem to me there's a pretty simple explanation for.
- [26:06]
Andrew Muller
Anyway, one of the things I am curious about, Daniela, is, is why is it that alien sightings, UFO sightings, it's not only in the United States they are reported, but it is massively, disproportionately a thing in the United States. Where is this assumption among Americans that these creatures that would travel all this way would be exclusively interested in them?
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Daniella Peled
Well, right. I mean, in other places you see, like, ghosties. And, you know, I mean, here you, you know, you more like to see a headless horseman. Right. So I wonder, and I think there's. There's a cultural signifier, but I wonder if it's also like a deep sort of cult thing from the Cold War and the sort of. And people who've been very impressionably, you know, Americana has sort of got into the cultural psyches. If you expect to see it, you know, you're likely to see it.
- [26:55]
James Rogers
I mean, I do think you make a valid point about the Cold War. If we think about the time when these were sort of peaking is actually at the beginning of the Cold War. And, you know, there's a lot of this American popular culture about the red scares and everything like that, and that there are definite parallels there. But, I mean, I'm reminded and mentioning ghosts, I do. I've never seen a ghost either, although actually I do have one in. I can't explain that, but it's too long to go and stay. But I do. I read quite a lot of ghost stories just because I'm interested. And I had one which is from the sort of late Victorian era, which is a reprint. And at the end, the author said, sort of rather sadly, you know, these. All these folktales, they'd gathered right across different parts of the uk, and he said, but the coming of the railways and the electric light will probably mean that these stories are told less and less. And you sort of. The ghosts are sort of Retreating in the face of modern science. And I wonder if, you know, the point that you made, Andrew, about that declining to turn up in Times Square on a Friday night might have something to do with the places where they're seen.
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Andrew Muller
Well, I also am put in mind, Daniela, there's a joke in one. I think it might be in the first volume of Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, where Ford Prefect, who is the alien researcher living here under an assumed name on Earth, does mention the habit of like bored alien youth descending to Earth in some rural location and strutting up and down in front of some bewildered farmer while making beep, beep noises. I kind of like the idea that we're just being pranked.
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Daniella Peled
I do, I do. And if, you know I'm sending this out into the airwaves now, please come and sort us out like we're waiting for you. We need some help from some higher and more intelligent beings.
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Andrew Muller
Well, this is the other possible theory, James, that they have actually been here, taken one look at the place and gone.
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James Rogers
Not for me, thanks.
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Andrew Muller
Yep, let's move on. But fundamentally, I'm going to ask you both to lay them on the table here. Do you think the balance of probability is that we are not alone, do you reckon there?
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James Rogers
I think probably yes, actually. I mean, we've got no idea. I mean, I, you know, I've got no idea of the size of the universe. Isn't it likely that this, that there must be life somewhere else, even place we can't imagine? But I don't know. I mean, you ask. Balance of probability. I've got. That doesn't mean to say that I believe that, you know, something that's small and far away definitely was SOUND OF ALIEN life.
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Daniella Peled
Yeah, I actually, I think I prefer to believe in Ghosts rather than UFOs because they're a lot more fun.
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Andrew Muller
Well, on that metaphysical note, Daniela Pellet and James Rogers, thank you both for joining us. Finally, on today's show, keen listeners of the Monocle Daily will know that one of our regular panelists, Julie Norman, Associate professor of Politics and International Relations at ucl, recently wrote a book entitled Gaza the Dream and the Nightmare. It tells the story of Gaza through testimonies from its residents as well as neighboring Israelis. Julie has now adapted that book into a play, with the first production taking place in London earlier this year. Monocle's Hassan Anderson spoke to Julie about the work. He began by asking what had sparked the idea of turning the book into a play.
- [29:50]
Julie Norman
Yeah, so the book obviously I did all these interviews, had hundreds of pages of transcripts, and some of those quotes and stories were going into the book. But I just felt there needed to be another outlet for these voices. And I like to think the whole world's gonna read the book, but obviously they're not. And there's many different types of audiences that will come to hear a play or to watch a play. And I also just felt the play format just allowed me to get a bit into more of the nuance to play with the words. A. And so I approached the play as something called verbatim theater, where you take direct quotes from real people and braid them into a script. And so the play is a one act, it runs about 45 minutes. And I produced it here in London with a group of my students who are absolutely phenomenal and amazing. So we did three shows here in London, and we just did a reading in Montreal last week. And we're currently looking for more opportunities and venues to hold performances or readings.
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Hassan Anderson
And this is your first foray into the world of playwriting?
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Julie Norman
It is, I would say, I've been sort of theater adjacent for a while. I've written, like, about political theater in conflict settings or as a tool for dealing with the past and divided society. So I've observed different types of theaters in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. And so I've written and kind of talked with playwrights and actors a lot about the work they're doing, but this is the first time that I've taken a stab at actually writing a script.
- [31:09]
Hassan Anderson
Two questions off the back of that. What is it about the medium of theatre that you think lends itself well to political narratives? And did you ever have any doubts that this book could work in that context?
- [31:20]
Julie Norman
I'll start with the first question with why make this book into that format? And I will preface it by saying I had seen a play a number of years ago called Speak Truth to Power by Ariel Dorfman, where he had pretty much done the same thing, taken interviews with human rights defenders and braided them into a show. I was very impacted by that performance. So I'd always had, in the back of my mind, I would like to try and do something like that with some of my fieldwork interviews and this project. The interviews were just so raw, so emotional, so human in so many ways. The words were almost kind of saying, we need to be heard somewhere else. We need to be heard more loudly. And I may too, just the poetic way that people told their stories. It was very lyrical in the ways that many of the stories were told to me, and so writing the play just seemed quite a natural fit. But political theater in general, I mean, it's controversial for obvious reasons. Not everyone likes it. But I would say for me, I do think the theater offers a different type of space for talking about difficult issues. You can introduce a certain amount of tension. You can sort of challenge the audience to hold some different types of truths or narratives than they would maybe open to if you were just in a conversation or trying to, you know, hit them with an Op Ed or something like that. People seem to want a little bit of nuance, a little bit of challenge in a theater space, and you can also use it as a platform to open up different kinds of conversations. So I. I would say that's one of the main things. And the other thing about it is just theater is just, by nature, very collaborative. I mean, this project, I say that I'm the playwright, but one, I didn't write a word of it. These were all stories that were told to me. And secondly, I could put the words on paper. But I've had to rely on different people's creative skills, talents, imagination, to bring it to life in different theaters and places here. And my students were extraordinary in that. They saw movement in it, they saw music in it, they saw lighting in it, things that I was not even thinking about. They brought those talents and shaped it into something really creative and really beautiful. And I just think that process around theater helps us engage with difficult themes in a very different type of way.
- [33:26]
Hassan Anderson
The play is written in the verbatim form. I just wondered why you chose to take that approach when transposing your book into a play. Was ever there a temptation to change lines in an attempt to maybe create more of an effect that was authentic but meant maybe you felt wasn't coming across if you were just to reprint things as they were said, yeah, so
- [33:47]
Julie Norman
this is a great question. I would say the verbatim style was probably the only way I was going to write this. I wasn't comfortable writing it as a sort of narrative play or kind of making up characters or a narrative. Like, there are certainly people who can do that and will do that very well. I knew that was not the strength that I was gonna bring to this. And again, for me, the source material was already there so much in front of me to work with. So it was pretty clear that it would be a verbatim format. But with that said, yeah, obviously you're thinking in the play not only about kind of putting these ideas together, but also how they sound, the rhythm of it, the cadence of it, if you're trying to introduce some tension, like, how do you do that, especially across different characters. So I guess I would say there was some places where, like, the wording and that kind of thing, you were somewhat intentional about trying to link things in a certain way, as long as, like, the actual sentiment was the same. And so I played with that a little bit. But the lines themselves, again, are pretty much cut and pasted from my transcripts. And one thing that was interesting that I play within this script is kind of who is saying their different lines. And when I did my research, different people used similar words or similar phrasing, often with a different meaning or focus or intention. And I kind of play with that in the film. But the words themselves were communicated pretty similarly in all the transcripts. And I just worked with what I had.
- [35:10]
Hassan Anderson
While I've read a bit of the script, it's immediately gripping. I just wondered if there was anything that you learned as someone who studies the region, but is now approaching it in this way that they hadn't before.
- [35:20]
Julie Norman
Yeah, I think one thing I would say is really encapsulated in the title of Gaza, the Dream and the Nightmare. And that itself is a quote from one of our interviewees who described living in Gaza exactly as that like a dream and a nightmare at the same time. But almost every person that I speak within this project really emphasized, you know, if you're going to talk about Gaza, yes, talk about the wars, occupation, suffering, all these things, but also make sure that it's not just portrayed as a nightmare, that people aren't just portrayed as suffering victims. Make sure that you talk about the beautiful aspects of Gaza too, whether it's natural beauty or social fabric, things like the strawberries in the market, things like this, the sharing between neighbors, things that people had before these last two years when there were clubs and arts and theaters and universities and NGOs and initiatives. And so almost everyone said, make sure that is included in the book or as it came to be, the play. And so that's one thing that I think me, as a political scientist and especially a conflict researcher, had to be more open to, because we are used to looking or analyzing or working with Gaza as like a conflict place. And for people who live there, obviously, it's much more than that. It's many, many more things than that. And so in the book and in the play, I tried to capture those facets. And I think in the play especially, we tried to have those come out even Though most of the words and most of the memories are difficult, they are challenging, they're interspersed with a real sense of vibrancy and community that existed in Gaza and I would argue still exists within Gazans themselves, despite the destruction.
- [36:57]
Hassan Anderson
There is one question I want to ask here, and I've written the quote down in my wonderfully illegible handwriting, but it's one that cropped up across the script a couple of times from a couple of different characters. Remembering the numbers doesn't count as remember remembering. You have to hear the personal stories. Tell me about that quote because it comes from. It's the same quote that comes from two opposite sides. How did that happen if verbatim style in which you approach the play.
- [37:21]
Julie Norman
Yeah, and I will be honest, that was a quote that I first heard from an Israeli interlocutor who was taking me around to some of the October 7th sites. And, you know, people were kind of saying numbers. And he said, look like you. And he said exactly this. Like, just hearing the numbers doesn't count. Like, you have to hear the personal stories. And in Israel, that's kind of a tradition that people do that. But then of course, with my gods and interviewees, that was emphasized over and over again, too. And you even saw it, you know, just in social media, this idea of don't just say the 70,000 like you have to. We are not numbers. Essentially, that has been a kind of a rallying cry and even a title of other people's books. I'm from the region for years now, so that sentiment was always one I had heard from Palestinians. But then I also heard it very clearly articulated by this Israeli interlocutor as well. And in my times in the region, since October 7th and since the Gaza war started, that has been so emphasized because it has been so personal. Everyone, everyone has either been directly impacted or knows someone who was, and they want that person and that memory told, not just the big picture numbers that we get here.
- [38:26]
Andrew Muller
That was Julie Norman, associate professor of Politics and International Relations at ucl, in conversation with Monocle's Hassan Anderson. The Dream and the Nightmare will be staged at Barons Court Theatre in London from September 16th. That's all for this edition of the Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Daniela Pellet and James Rogers. Today's show was produced by Tom Webb and researched by Josefina Astra Negla Gomez. Our sound engineer was Elliot Greenfield. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.