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- [00:00]
Alena Hlivko
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 30th March, 2026 on Monaco Radio.
- [00:07]
Andrew Muller
Donald Trump changes his mind about Cuba. Don't blame us if he's changed it back by the time you hear this. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine finds his country's expertise in demand across the Middle East. And might Hungary's Viktor Orban era actually finally be over? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts now.
- [00:27]
Alena Hlivko
Foreign.
- [00:38]
Andrew Muller
Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily, coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Alena Hlivko and James Rogers will discuss today's big stories and we'll contemplate a new foray into political satire at a time when the principal challenge is writing jokes more grotesque than reality. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Elion Ulhivko, founder and CEO at St. James's Foreign Policy Group and a member of the advisory council at the Coalition for Global Prosperity, and James Rogers, associate professor of international journalism at City St George's University of London. Hello to you both.
- [01:23]
James Rogers
Hi, Andrew.
- [01:24]
Andrew Muller
Hello, James. First of all, we will be touching on matters pertaining to Russia sort of very shortly. Is there there, by any chance, a book on that subject you would care to recommend to our listeners?
- [01:35]
James Rogers
There is, Andrew, thank you very much for asking. There is the Return of Russia, which I published just at the end of January, a look, a concise look, at least as concise as I could make it, a political history of Russia and its relations with the west since the end of the Cold War. Starting the focus on the 1990s, where I argue the relationship actually started to go wrong. And taking us up to the escalation of the war on Ukraine in February 2022.
- [02:02]
Andrew Muller
Listeners, I can confirm that it is a rollicking reed. Alena, I guess in related developments, you have been giving some thought to the current and future defence of Europe. I have to say I'm glad somebody is.
- [02:15]
Alena Hlivko
Yes, indeed. And who else, if not a Ukrainian, should be doing that?
- [02:19]
Andrew Muller
Well, exactly.
- [02:20]
Alena Hlivko
I've been traveling to Brussels, engaging with a think tank there called Wilfrid Martin center, who's shaping a lot of policies for the European Union. And one of them, which is encouraging to hear, is the new defence policy for the EU or for the European leg of NATO or whichever configuration would be best. I think that's all now in discussion, but it certainly involves not just focus on the industrial base of the European Union, of all the capabilities that they have, including potential European Defence Force, European Security Council and other configurations that are in discussions, but also the role that Ukraine will play in it as a future member of the eu, which is hopefully most likely to happen. But then other associates, friends and partners like the uk, Norway and potentially others.
- [03:11]
Andrew Muller
Is there any talk that given the general state of affairs, Europe is going to have to figure out how to have its guns pointing in both directions?
- [03:20]
Alena Hlivko
Well, I think that certainly triggered the conversation of without having the guns from the other side of the ocean defending European skies, certainly. How could the EU withstand just the growing geopolitical uncertainty in the world?
- [03:36]
Andrew Muller
Well, we will still start in Cuba, some citizens of which may shortly be in a position to fill their cars back up. A Russian tanker, the anatoly Kolodkin, carrying 100,000 tons of crude oil, has docked at the Cuban port of Matanzas, apparently waved in by US President Donald Trump. The US has for some months been blockading Cuba, resulting in shortages of oil and consequent shortages of almost everything else. It is an apparent whimsical reversal of the policy enshrined a little over a week ago when the US Treasury Department added Cuba to the list of countries forbidden to receive Russian oil. James, Cuba obviously struggling for oil since it's, well, metaphorical if not literal to pipeline rather to Venezuela, was abruptly severed. So why, and I apologize in advance for asking anybody to explain why Donald Trump thinks or does anything, but why might he have apparently changed his mind about blockading Cuba?
- [04:35]
James Rogers
Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I suspect that this may just be a temporary thing. There's no sign that this is, you know, one gets a sense, at least for now, this is very much a one off. And I wonder if President Trump has decided that he doesn't really want a confrontation between a Russian tanker and the US Navy just at this moment, given everything else that's going on in the world. So I wonder and also if he's trying to sort of seem generous in some way. You know, he's talking about how, you know, the desperate situation there. But I don't see this maybe as a major reversal of policy, just something slightly unpredictable and probably a one off off, as I say, because he probably doesn't want to have a major confrontation with Russia at this stage.
- [05:18]
Andrew Muller
I mean, he has Aliona, recently made some extremely unsubtle threats in Cuba's direction. And obviously it joins a fairly long list of countries who can claim that. But what is actually going on there? Because this, although President Trump may not realize it, is not 1962, Cuba is no imaginable threat to the United States. Why would he be talking out loud about taking it?
- [05:44]
Alena Hlivko
I think Trump has definitely gone on this escapade and adventure to replace regime leaders across the world, but only those who think, he thinks are easy to replace. And perhaps he was emboldened after Venezuela and its success. And we've heard a lot that if it wasn't for Greenland, it probably would have been Cuba next. But now with Iran war, it's interesting that perhaps he realizes, and the advisors around him, specifically Marco Rubio, that they don't have enough resources to handle yet another confrontation with Cuba just on the border. And just like James rightly mentioned, they wouldn't have the capacity, or perhaps even electorally, that wouldn't be a good look to engage in yet another conflict closer to its borders. And with that said, we have to remember that this is the year of elections in the United States, midterm elections, and there is an enormous pressure coming from the Cuban community in Florida. And that, as we know, is a very sensitive constituency for Secretary of State and other congressmen. So undoubtedly there must be some sort of internal pressure on President Trump in that sense. Now, we don't know how long it will last, but I presume that it's already affecting the voting charts towards the Republicans, perhaps potentially those who are against direct confrontation with foreign powers. So I'm sure there's a deeper, more calculated thinking to that as well.
- [07:16]
Andrew Muller
I mean, there seemed to be some hope, James, at least on the part of the US Administration, that if, if Cuba was blockaded, if it had consequent blackouts and shortages, then the people would spontaneously rise up, overthrow the remnants of the Communist government, and then perhaps rename Havana Trumpville or Trumpopolis or something. Does that ever seem likely, however overt the Cuban population may be at this point in our country?
- [07:47]
James Rogers
I don't think so. I mean, we've been, we have, we've not exactly. We haven't been here before, but there have been similar situations. I mean, as long ago as the 1990s, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba lost a lot of resources that had come previously from Moscow. You might remember Andrew seeing pictures of the May Day parade, the big socialist holiday, with part of the army on bicycles in the mid-1990s because the economy was in such dire straits after many, many years of generous support from the Soviet Union, which was no. And that didn't bring down the government. Of course, Castros were still around then, but I don't think there's any sign this is going to bring down the current regime in the way that the United States might be hoping. And clearly it's not a fight they want to pick now if they're allowing this tanker to go through just to follow that up.
- [08:32]
Andrew Muller
James, there are allegedly talks ongoing between Cuba and the United States. But what imaginable leverage does Cuba now have? Because it doesn't really have any relationship with any, any other adversary that the United States would have to be concerned about. It doesn't really, to be honest, have any friends except maybe those Latin American countries which still have some sort of sentimental fondness for the legacy of the Castros. It doesn't have Fidel. There isn't a Castro in charge of the place anymore. I mean, if you're Cuba negotiating with the United States and you're the regime trying to protect itself, what do you bring to the table at this point?
- [09:12]
James Rogers
I don't think you bring a great deal, but I mean, I suppose you might sort of bring a quiet life in the region for the time being when the United States. United States has got quite a lot of things going on elsewhere.
- [09:22]
Andrew Muller
Just finally on this one, Aljona, obviously you and your country folk don't need any education in how the mania of one leader to acquire territory can end up having extreme consequences. But there is something of that sort going on with Donald Trump. This is me imposing my own pet theory on the discussion. But he wants a 51st state, doesn't he? This is what he said about Canada, it's what he said about Greenland. You can kind of see Cuba being a logical plan C. I think we
- [09:54]
Alena Hlivko
could even see Potentially a detached 51st state in Ukraine when they wanted to take all of the minerals that Ukraine possesses. So, yeah, certainly America first agenda there and make America even greater than it is territorially. Specifically, I hope that there is calculation that can be contained by, you know, the famous leverages of power in the United States. Congress should certainly have a say on the policies that American administration is currently making and we can only hope that democracy will prevail. My very politically correct answer to that.
- [10:40]
James Rogers
I mean, it's interesting though, because, you know, just all those places that you've mentioned, Andrew, they've kind of come up and gone away again. Canada, Greenland, now possibly Cuba. So one wonders if things prove to be more difficult to achieve than they might at first seem, then attention in the white House starts to wander elsewhere and maybe we'll see that happen here too.
- [11:00]
Andrew Muller
Well, to the Middle east, which for obvious reasons has in recent weeks suffered a significant drop off in visitors. One who has taken advantage of the glut of cancelled hotel rooms is President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine, who has undertaken a brisk whip through Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Jordan, all of which have been on the receiving end. Iran's scattershot response to ongoing operations by the United States and Israel. No country on earth knows more about missile and drone defence than Ukraine. Agreements on defence cooperation have now been signed or are pending between Ukraine and a hatful of Middle Eastern countries. Alyona. President Zelenskyy has spotted some potential new friends.
- [11:43]
Alena Hlivko
Absolutely. I'm watching Ukraine's diplomacy and foreign policy evolve very interestingly because it definitely follows the modern trends of multilateral. In the era of geopolitical fragmentation, when Ukraine has seen that the multinational traditional bodies have not been that effective like the United nations or UN Security Council, NATO is under huge question still the European Union, useful here and there, but not quite actionable in sense of security. He's taking directly to the countries. He's seeing the opportunity where Ukraine could insert itself into a dialogue, into the security issue and where could it effectively leverage the experience it has gained over the last four years of this brutal war and further back and into building new partnerships?
- [12:35]
Andrew Muller
I mean, is this all about demonstrating also to the Middle East, James, that Ukraine would be a better friend to them than Russia?
- [12:43]
James Rogers
Well, I think there must be an element of that, but I think Alena is absolutely right to say this is a product of the times in which we live. I mean, 10 years ago, could you imagine that, you know, the Ukrainian president would have been going on a big, in effect, trade or strategic mission to the Gulf? No, but it makes perfect sense now. For any number of reasons, President Zelensky is raising his country's profile. He has gone on a trip in which Ukraine is no kind of supplicant, but rather, you know, somebody offering very useful expertise, possibly for commercial exchange and therefore, you know, bringing much needed. He's talked about billions in some of the media reports, much needed funds to his country's war efforts. So it does make perfect sense. But I think there is an element of that, but it's not necessarily going to deliver for all the reasons that we been talking about. Many of these countries may think, well, perhaps we can be friends with both people in different aspects of our international relations.
- [13:35]
Andrew Muller
But it is, I mean, Opportunism is not always a bad thing, Alena. And there was some talk that when this war started that it was mostly good news for Russia because obviously there was a huge spike in oil prices and Russia benefited from that. But is this Zelenskyy thinking? Well, and it would be in keeping with what we've come to understand of him, it's just. Okay, it is what it is. How can we work to our advantage?
- [14:02]
Alena Hlivko
Absolutely. First of all, Ukraine has a unique chance to build partnerships with extremely wealthy countries. If we're being blunt, Middle Eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia, very powerful in its own right. Qatar has helped Ukraine previously moderate on children issues and other prisoners exchanges, and of course is a very close friend and ally of the United States. So that's a useful relationship. UAE has been warmer towards Russia than Ukraine historically. So turning them around now, especially that Russia is supporting Iran, is a critical moment for Ukraine to establish that relationship. And of course, Jordan, who's a close ally of the United Kingdom, is only a natural partner. And building defense partnerships with them, as James has mentioned, offering them the expertise, not just the drones themselves, not just the technology to intercept Shaheed drones that Iran is launching towards the Gulf countries, but also, also sharing the expertise, sharing the knowledge of how to actually navigate the interceptors, the tactics and strategies that Iran and Russia deploy in launching those drones. Because it's not. You don't just shoot off the drone into a certain direction. It needs to avoid electronic warfare. It needs to avoid interceptors in a certain way, go against certain terrains in a very specific way to be successful. And Ukraine has got all of that knowledge and can predict several steps ahead. So this is about extending any help that Ukraine can in exchange. Now, there have been reports that the early days of this war Zelenskyy offered to exchange interceptor drones for Patriot missiles. Now we would have to offer probably tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of those cheap interceptors for one Patriot missile. The price is simply not very coherent there and not corresponding. So. So it's a tough exchange, especially when the countries in the Middle east need to still protect their air. Our most important assignment here as Ukrainians, I guess, is to build those partnerships now. And with three countries of the four, there have been 10 year defense frameworks signed already. So that's an extremely good news. And then to make sure that whatever Ukraine can get from Europe still goes towards Ukraine and not towards Middle East. So that also will take some negotiations.
- [16:29]
Andrew Muller
Is there a thing going on here as well, James, where President Zelenskyy and I guess this, this goes to that theme of opportunism is thinking, well, obviously I can't rely on the United States anymore. Europe is not the, for all its good intentions, not the, the swiftest decision making body known to man. This might be a huge bonanza for us if we, if, if we can make the Middle east see us as actually useful allies.
- [16:56]
James Rogers
Well, that's right. I mean, obviously there's a part of the, there are colossal sums of money for investment elsewhere. And I think this is not the first war in which there's been massive technological advances enforced on a country because they've had to learn that old saying about necessity being the mother of invention. That's very much what Ukraine has been through in the last four years. And now they can use this both to boost their own budget, hopefully, but also to make partnerships that will assist them in the longer term war with Russia.
- [17:27]
Andrew Muller
Just finally on this one, Alena, to the war in Iran itself. Does Zelenskyy see any kind of Ukrainian interest in this? Because he has, before the war started, sought to bracket Russia and Iran together. Brothers in evil, I think he called them, or words to that effect. Would he be, deep down where he lives, actually vaguely supportive of what the United States and Israel are doing in Iran?
- [17:55]
Alena Hlivko
I think it's certainly a huge advantage to Ukraine in the sense that one of Russia's strongest allies in this war, he calls it the brothers in evil. We've seen many reports and publications in the US about the axis of upheaval in Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. So that is certainly not an alliance, but a temporary community of countries who work certainly in cahoots against the Western countries. And because Ukraine is backed by the west, certainly against Ukraine, and sponsoring Russia's war on Ukraine, undoubtedly so weakening one of those actors and getting them out of the game, I think undoubtedly will be successful for Ukraine. Now, the problem is that Russia no longer relies on Iran as much as it used to in the early days of war. It basically extracted everything it could out of Iran. Its drone technology, perhaps some of the funding, and it supplied ballistic missiles in return and is now supplying intelligence, as per recent reports and knowledge on navigating drones into the Gulf countries. So there's more help coming from Russia into Iran than the other way around. Now, getting Russia a little bit distracted with that war and committing any resources, perhaps when Iran would expect it to, could potentially withdraw. Some of those resources being aimed at Ukraine. But we're of course not hoping too much for that because still Russia's resources are Pretty endless sad, with the help of China, amongst others.
- [19:30]
James Rogers
I mean, there's another thing here as well, which might be worth touching on, that Vladimir Putin will, while he's had a sort of short term boost from the oil price, will not really like what he's seeing in Iran in the sense that this is a regime that has been removed, you know, against its will. You know, there's a lot of, if you look back, you can go back right back, in fact, to the regime change in Iraq in 2003. This is something that haunts Putin and we're led to believe that he, he watched the footage of Colonel Gaddafi, of Libya being killed many times over because he very much worries that this might be his own fate one day.
- [20:02]
Andrew Muller
Well, to Hungary now, which has embarked upon the second last week of campaigning ahead of a general election on April 12. It would be difficult to overestimate the quantities of champagne that have been hopefully iced in almost every other EU capital in the hopes of an end to the long domination of Hungarian politics by Viktor Orban, prime minister since 2010 and for one previous stint between 1998 and 20. It is a journey which Orban began as the bright young hope of a post Cold War liberal Eastern Europe, and which he may end, if opinion polls are any guide, as a cranky pro Russian nationalist, Aldeona. I mean, obviously I think it's not difficult to guess which side most Ukrainians will be cheering on here, but how optimistic dare you get? Orban and his party, Fidezh, are still trailing in the polls, but their numbers are up a bit in recent days.
- [20:56]
Alena Hlivko
Yeah, I think it's a very close call. Especially as Ukrainians. We're very familiar with the way Russia can meddle in elections, the way Russia can support the candidate that suits them better through various techniques. And I think there have been even reports in Ukrainian media that there was a staged assassination being planned. We don't know how true that is, but that definitely sounds like it's straight from Russia's playbook just to boost Orban's numbers a little bit. We're certainly hopeful that democracy will prevail, that those young people currently in the streets in Hungary want to change their country, not just for the sake of Ukraine, which of course it will be crucial for, but for the sake for their own country, who is a European nation. And hopefully the rule of law and democracy will prevail there.
- [21:45]
Andrew Muller
I mean, there are plausible stories being reported, James, of voters already being bribed with blandishments, including, but not limited to money and drugs. If nevertheless that does not work. Do we expect Viktor Orban to make the gracious concession speech, wishing all the best to his opponent, etc, etc, or might he attempt shenanigans of some sort?
- [22:13]
James Rogers
That's really difficult. I think the gracious acceptance concession speech is probably a bit of a stretch. I mean, it's interesting. I think, you know, after 16 years, I mean, the sort of bigger picture of this, I think, is probably that this was never the way that the EU was really supposed to work. You know, you mentioned Orban's, you know, political history as somebody who's going to be part of this sort of new kind of united Europe and has really shown that in the time. And of course, the European Union was designed for a Europe that is not full of conflict as its history has been, but it hasn't been, thankfully, for most of the last 80 years. I mean, it's interesting, I was reading a Reuters report on this last week in which one EU diplomat, perhaps rather undiplomatically, was quoted as saying, everybody hopes that Orban will lose, you know, referring to the European diplomatic service, presumably, because it has been a massive headache for them and what they've been trying to do. So in that sense, you know, I think it will be, you know, very much welcomed in parts of Brussels. But I think the way that Hungary has conducted itself within the European Union for the last few years has shown some of the flaws that still exist in the mechanisms that make it work day to day.
- [23:23]
Andrew Muller
I mean, I have had conversations, Alena, it will unsurprise you to learn with various government officials, ministers, et cetera, from Eastern Europe, and particularly the Baltic states, whose off the record remarks on the subject of Viktor Orban are really not repeatable on a family program such as this. But what would a change of government, practically speaking, mean for Ukraine?
- [23:47]
Alena Hlivko
I think, first of all, what's really important strategically for Europe is seeing that the candidate who disrupts the joint decisions of the European Union, who goes against the European Commission, that he does not hold support within its own nation, because that's just disruptive. It affects directly the economic welfare of people. Inflation is on the rise. Hungary has not been able to get out of economic constraints for many years now. And they were kind of hoping that Trump, being the great friend of Orban, will provide some sort of lifeline and assistance, but nothing more than just some friendly visits followed. So generally, Hungary is not doing well overall. Secondly, what's very interesting, and James and I discussed it before with, we're basically seeing the clash of two candidates. One is Far right and one is center right. And I think for Europe in the coming years, that's going to be a very interesting trend to watch because we may even face that in the UK ourselves of a far right party going against center right, hopefully not into coalition or whatever the circumstances are. And many countries will be facing that challenge, especially as the far right will be moving towards isolationism, will be getting support and funds from Russia. There have been many reports about that in Germany, in France. So that's very interesting ideologically to watch of how to win that battle when you're basically competing on the same field, but you are taking slightly more nuanced stances, so you have to find different leverage. And finally, most importantly for Ukraine and perhaps for other countries who are working towards the EU accession, it's not blocking the expansion of the eu, it's not blackmailing the European Commission for more money or more leverage on making a certain decision. I think the European Union is certainly, certainly reconsidering its voting system and veto powers. I'm not sure what exactly can be done within that, but hopefully they will start putting some precautions in place. And for Ukraine, of course, it's unblocking one of its western borders because what Ukrainians have also been very cautious about and quite conscious too, that Russia not just expanding from the east, they started working directly through hybrid warfare means to close off Ukraine from the west. We've seen the change of government in Slovakia, who used to be friendly, then Hungary, always kind of aggressive, they failed in Romania, they failed in Mova. Czechia is, we're yet to see how we will go. And Poland is still with Ukraine despite difficulties. So unblocking that one piece of Ukrainian border, making it more pro Western and making more aid flow through Hungary to Ukraine, including all the decisions that are needed for Ukraine that would be highly beneficial for the country's survival.
- [26:49]
Andrew Muller
Well, finally on tonight's show, media group Gzero, founded by the political scientist Ian Bremmer from the Eurasia Group, are having a crack at political satire with their award winning puppet comedy series called Puppet Regime. Using humour to comment on geopolitics and featuring puppet versions of world leaders. Monocle Radio's Fernando Augusto Pacheco spoke with both Ian and his puppet master, Alex Clement.
- [27:13]
Ian Bremmer
You know, there are a lot of comedians out there that are being political,
- [27:17]
Alex Clement
but there aren't a lot of political
- [27:19]
Ian Bremmer
scientists that think they're funny. We may fail in being funny, but we're not failing in getting the content right. And so in that regard, it definitely is taking the Topics with the respect that they're due.
- [27:30]
Alex Clement
Yeah. One of the comments that I love best that we get on some of the puppet skits is, is this actually a documentary channel? You know, so. So it's like when you're hitting that, you're ready. You're really nailing something special, so.
- [27:41]
Fernando Augusto Pacheco
Of course it is. Of course it is.
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Alena Hlivko
And.
- [27:44]
Fernando Augusto Pacheco
And a question perhaps to both of you, but, Alex, I want to know what. What's the balance here? And how funny can you be? I mean, because, of course, so many things happen every week. You know, 20, 26. I mean, come on, this has been a landmark year for news, but is it quite challenging sometimes, you know, when you. When you're preparing a new episode, depending on what's happening in the world. So tell us, how do you see.
- [28:07]
Alex Clement
I think there are two big challenges. One is keeping up with the news. Obviously, as you say, it is just a whirlwind of things happening. All that, everything everywhere, all at once. Trump himself, obviously, his character is a big part of the show, and by the show, I mean the world, but also puppet regime and keeping up with ways to satirize what's going on that aren't just sort of doing funny impressions, but are actually getting to the core of the things that are going on in the world. I think that's challenging. I think also it's a challenge to not. Not, you know, accidentally punch down sometimes. You know what I mean? Like, when you're doing political satire, by definition, you're dealing with heavy subjects. You're dealing with wars, you're dealing with politics. You're dealing with all these things. And I think punching up is okay and punching out is okay, but you never want to punch down. So I think it's like when you're satirizing people, you got to be. You got to be careful. You never want to be the butt of the joke. Can't be people suffering or people suffering. Can't be the butt of the joke. The people making those people suffer offer are essential to the joke. So if you have people, you know, you have politicians who are not being clear about their intentions or are treating their constituents like idiots, those people are fair game no matter where they are, whether they represent the left or the right or minority groups or majority groups or whatever. But I think striking those that balance is really hard, right? Just keeping up with the news and then walking the line of satirizing without mocking.
- [29:25]
Ian Bremmer
Let's be clear, politics today have become fundamentally unserious. They'd become memeified by the Actual leaders themselves.
- [29:34]
Alex Clement
They're absurd.
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Ian Bremmer
And in some ways representing that with these cute, completely innocuous puppets and letting them deliver the actual message lands in a way that, you know, I think people can understand, that people can accept. I think folks get that we're being authentic here.
- [29:56]
Andrew Muller
That was Ian Bremmer and Alex Clement from Gzero and its program A Puppet Regime. We'll go back to our guests. No guests now, rather Alyona Livko and James Rogers. Alena, obviously this is an interesting question to get to ask a Ukrainian because you have a president who became president because he made a program making fun of Ukrainian politics and you and your fellow citizens went all in on the joke and elected him. Is it still possible to, for people in the position that your country's in, to find the humor in, I guess, current events? I mean, probably a better way to ask the question of like, if you watch Servant of the People now, would you still find it funny?
- [30:40]
Alena Hlivko
I think yes, because it was mostly about Zelenskyy taking on Ukrainian corrupt politicians. So that's always very heartwarming to watch for a Ukrainian. And another thing that has probably been missed mostly by the Western audience, Ukrainian comedy at the moment is flourishing.
- [31:02]
Andrew Muller
The number of it usually does in time of war, to be honest.
- [31:05]
Alena Hlivko
Yeah, the number of stand up comedians doing their shows in the bunkers, the comedy shows on YouTube, whatever talent whoever has, just deploying that into everything from, again, ridiculing global leaders to kind of ease the pain of everyone from Putin to Trump. Surely there's a lot of material there to potentially any European leaders to just everyday reality that people have to deal with, you know, like being scared that you're going to get stuck in the bathroom and the missile is going to catch you, you know, half naked and what do you do then? Or putting some makeup on before you go to sleep so that they find you pretty. Those sort of kind of jokes that you know are borderline threats, but they're the ones who keep Ukrainians going. There was one especially, you know, whenever Western politicians go to Ukraine, everybody feels safer because there's less, at least attacks on Kyiv. And there was one joke when Prince, formerly Prince or still Prince Harry was in Ukraine.
- [32:14]
Andrew Muller
I lose track of who's a prince and who isn't at this point.
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Alena Hlivko
Yes, exactly. Me too. So there was this brilliant joke where all the ladies on Ukrainian sector of Internet were saying, right, tonight we're all safe because Prince Harry is in the country, meaning they certainly will not bomb Kyiv. Whereas the response was, are you sure he's going to be able to visit all of us.
- [32:35]
Andrew Muller
James, does the value of satire, though, vary with the context? Because it is complained about sometimes, certainly in democracies, that it's a kind of amiable, companionable escape valve and that the leaders are all in on the joke as well. But as you would know from the places you've reported, and it's been my own experience of them as well, authoritarians, tyrants, always absolutely humorless. And laughter is the thing that terrifies them most, because once people start laughing at you, you are kind of stuffed.
- [33:07]
James Rogers
Yeah, I mean, I watched a couple of episodes of this and I was reminded actually of a conversation that I had in Moscow in the late mid-2000s, I think, after Putin had been president for about four or five years. And I. I had a Russian journalist colleague in the 1990s in Russia, they had a satirical show with puppets making fun of the politicians. And this man's father, who was, I guess 50 or 60, was recording all of them on video cassette. And so my friend said to him one day, dad, why are you doing this? He said, we've never been allowed to do this in Russia before and it's not going to last for long. And he was right. Once Putin became president, that show was gone pretty quickly. So I think, and if anyone does want to watch this particular, particular show we're talking about now, I recommend this authoritarian life. Mr. Putin and President Xi of China. It's their sort of podcast. It's called this Authoritarian Life.
- [33:56]
Andrew Muller
I'll close by asking you each in turn if there is a particular political satire, either of the moment or not, that has struck you as having something particularly pertinent to say. Alena, you first.
- [34:11]
Alena Hlivko
For me, it was definitely yes, Prime Minister. I think it was the classic of all times. And what amazed me the most about that show is how relevant it is to any country in the world, be it Ukraine or US or the uk. I absolutely love that show.
- [34:24]
Andrew Muller
No, I have recommended it till I'm blue in the face to people, James, not just trying to understand anything about politics, because I think, as Alena says, a lot of it is just absolutely eternal. But as a guide to the curious class related quirks of the United Kingdom. Kingdom. It's pretty hard to beat as well.
- [34:44]
James Rogers
I hadn't watched an episode for about 30 years. I ended up watching one a few months ago, and it was remarkable. I mean, as Baudelaire said of great art, it takes the eternal from the transitory. And it does. It says something to people in every country. And every time who's dealing with bureaucracies and politics. It's outstanding.
- [35:00]
Andrew Muller
Well, on that uplifting note, James Rogers and Adion Hlivko. Thank you both for joining us. In fact, that is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. It was produced by Christy O. Grady and researched by Annelise Maynard. Our sound engineer was Elliot Greenfield. Amandra Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening,
- [35:33]
Alena Hlivko
Sam.