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- [00:00]
Monica Lillis
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on the 13th of October, 2025 on Monaco Radio.
- [00:07]
Andrew Muller
Hostages freed, prisoners returned. Is this the first glimmer of a new dawn in the Middle East? Does Maria Corinna Machado's Nobel Peace Prize change the dynamic in Venezuela? And a way to make it even harder to stay awake at the opera. I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts. Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests, Alena Hlivko and Oscar Guardiola Rivera will discuss today's big stories. And we'll meet the restaurant critic Andrew Turval, who'll introduce his new book chronicling London's culinary journey from punchline to benchmark. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily, and I'm Andrew Muller, and I am joined today by Alena hlivko, founder and CEO at St. James Foreign Policy Group and a member of the Advisory Council at the Coalition for Global Prosperity. And Oscar Guadiola Rivera, professor in International Law and International affairs at Birkbeck College. Hello to you both. Glad to have you both here because you are on that very short list of regular daily guests, both of you. And I mean no disrespect to the others who make me wish we did actually do video as well as audio, because you are two of the only guests we have who ever turn up wearing anything remotely resembling traditional costume. Aliona, you, of course, on Vishyvanka Day. And Oscar, when like every day is just. What are you wearing, Oscar?
- [01:48]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
Well, I'm wearing dine over shirt. This is a Navajo overshirt covering my red tie. This is my lame attempt at, you know, coming up as respectable while talking about you know who.
- [02:03]
Andrew Muller
Well, we will be talking about you know who shortly. It is a splendid, splendid outfit. Where did you acquire it from?
- [02:09]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
This one I got in Arizona in Tempe. In fact, outside of Tempe. There is a diner reservation there.
- [02:16]
Andrew Muller
Okay. If I'm ever in Tempe, I will look in on it. Alena, no vyshyvanka today. But you have recently been back to where they wear them. That is Ukraine.
- [02:26]
Alena Hlivko
Yes, indeed. And in fact, I have many in my closet, so I'll make sure to wear mine next. Next time. Because, honestly, this shirt instills so much jo into me on this gray, rainy day in London. But, yes, indeed, I've just returned from Ukraine. Two trips in Fact, back to back with a short break in Poland in between. One of the safest places in Europe to be at the moment. But the second trip was quite short, only three days. But also heartwarming because I got to see my brother who's returned home from his leave from service on the front.
- [02:59]
Andrew Muller
Line in Ukraine, which regular listeners will be aware is Servici has been undertaking for a long stretch now. This must be starting. Well, I say starting long since I suspect have started to take a toll on him and his comrades.
- [03:13]
Alena Hlivko
Oh, it has indeed. He's been serving since March 2022, and while in the first two years of service he would get leave every three months because there was a chance for rotation. Now he only gets one break a year. So I went to see him last time in October last year and then had a few days with him this year and of getting extremely tired. Being a Ukrainian, I guess, and an eternal optimist that I strive to be, not always successfully. I'm still extremely grateful that he's alive and well because I've heard in the last year of quite a lot of his comrades sadly not being able to come back home. So we're still extremely grateful. But it's getting really, really tough for the guys because the shortage of troops and the lack of rotation and just the exhaustion of the Ukrainian armed forces.
- [04:07]
Andrew Muller
We will have more on Ukraine short shortly. But we start in the Middle east, where there is rejoicing in both Israel and the Palestinian territories at the release of the last living 20 hostages held by Hamas for a little over two years in exchange for nearly 2,000 Palestinians, some prisoners convicted of crimes, most prisoners detained during a little over two years of war in Gaza. Since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, 2023, US President Donald Trump has descended upon Jerusalem to take the credit, a chunk of which, in fairness, he does seem flagrantly tempt the fates by declaring to the Knesset that this is the moment that everything began to change and for the better in the Middle East. We will come back to that proposition, Alena. First of all, do we at least dare hope that this is the beginning of the end of this particular Arab.
- [05:01]
Alena Hlivko
Israeli war, the new Middle east, as President Trump put it? Well, look, let's hope, certainly, if there's a ceasefire, and I could testify as someone who's got war back home, as soon as the guns stop shooting and missiles start flying, it's always a victory and it's always a positive result. And as you've rightly said, we should give him credit for that. How long that will last. It's a completely different question. Luckily, all of the remaining hostages that were still alive were returned today, but there are still the remains of 28 hostages that were deceased. And unfortunately, there are suspicions that not even all of the bodies could be found and retrieved and returned. And that could provocate yet another escalation in the relations. And then the whole other topic is of course, the security force. One thing is to disarm and demobilize Hamas, but then how do you keep other resurgence groups emerging in the region? How do you keep the population from getting radicalized again? And then rebuilding of Gaza is the whole different topic. But of course, at the very first start, we should think about security force that will keep the truce going for as long as it takes.
- [06:18]
Andrew Muller
Well, on which subject, Oscar, it's going to be interesting to see who volunteers for that because there is already fighting reported in Gaza between Hamas and various rival factions. Hamas have certainly emerged for pictures in uniforms and carrying weapons, having been understandably shy about doing so in recent months. And this is despite, of course, everybody signing up to this 20 point plan, which does not envisage any particular role for Hamas in Gaza future, whatever it may be.
- [06:49]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
Interestingly enough, the three negotiating parties here, both Israel, Hamas and the pa, would be under a very different leadership in a few months, as we know. You know, there has been what two we have gone for two decades without elections in Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas is 86 years of age.
- [07:16]
Andrew Muller
Now, 19 years into his four year term.
- [07:20]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
And of course Hamas is, you know, will the commission, or at least that's the idea in the plan, the commission, its weapons while trying to negotiate some kind of relevance. And of course, Netanyahu is also facing elections, you know, next year, if not earlier than that, at which point the people of Israel will have a voice to ask the obvious question, which is why it took two years for this, because the terms of this is fire, let us be clear. Exactly the same as the terms of the ceasefire we had in last May, which Netanyahu dismissed, which Antony Blinken blamed Hamas for, very similar to those of the November 2023 brief ceasefire, which begs that question why it took so long. And you know, what was the point of all this carnage? And there is one obvious answer to visit catastrophic violence up 2 million people in Gaza. And that kind of responsibility is something that Mr. Netanyahu will have to answer to his own people.
- [08:36]
Andrew Muller
Alena, people are still trying to figure out the degree to which that this deal was entirely of Trump's doing and the degree to which People party to it have decided it is politically expedient to let him take credit for it if that's what he wants. But at a moment like this, when it is clear that the President of the United States has exerted some influence to bring about a ceasefire and an ongoing conflict, do Ukrainians get hopeful? Do you start thinking, well, if he can do it there, then surely he can do it here?
- [09:07]
Alena Hlivko
Oh, gosh. If only hearing what he said about his Israel and then Russia envoy Steve Witkoff in Moscow and how he got lost in the Kremlin somewhere for five hours and he couldn't be found because he'd been meeting with Putin.
- [09:25]
Andrew Muller
It's a pretty big place.
- [09:27]
Alena Hlivko
Yes, but if you're with Putin, I think you resorted to a very small room. And if not, best case scenario, you were just exposed to Russian propaganda and lecturing of fake history by President Putin. We all know that he indulges in that, but we don't really know what was discussed and which agreements they made. There were some intelligence reports coming out that Wyckoff just signed off Odessa, for example, to Moscow under the new proposed ceasefire agreement. You would know as good as I, given that we just visited Odessa in May this year, that it's a crucial port for Ukraine and holds the key to control over the Black Sea. So we don't quite know what exactly is being discussed on Ukraine without Ukraine, which is troubling. I think what gives me more hope is because this war started one year after Ukraine's invasion and the whole attention of international community was taken away, a lot of resources from the US and European allies as well were dedicated to Middle east. That maybe now, given that it's going to be the only kind of big, open, ongoing, raging conflict in Europe, that more attention and effort will be turned towards Ukraine.
- [10:44]
Andrew Muller
Just a final thought on the Middle East, Oscar, going back to something you were saying there about the immediate future of Netanyahu, who, as you point out, is going to have to face Israeli voters by the end of next year at the latest. Is the next little while potentially quite tricky for him personally in that getting the hostages back. Their families may now feel free to express the anger, which they doubtless have been storing up for two years, about why their people were not brought home sooner without the war to rally his coalition behind that may fragment. It's not going to be. I mean, you know, this is Netanyahu we're talking about, and nobody has ever made much money by betting against him. But this is going to be tricky, isn't it?
- [11:29]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
You put it very well. It's difficult to, you know, see what's in storage for Netanyahu. But one thing we saw today when we were witnessing those images, all the clapping and the credit was going for Mr. Trump. Every time the camera zeroed on Netanyahu, SILENCE BOOS I mean, it's palpable that people do hold him responsible and for good reason, obviously, you know, you know, that's one thing. His future is in the balance. The future of gases is still in the balance. This ceasefire, neither the ceasefire nor the peace process guarantees self determination for Gaza, an end to the siege. All those points are really what remains ahead. And those are crucial questions, crucial questions for Ukraine, because if the prize for peace is to concede on your right to self determination, well, very difficult to see a lasting peace with that kind of injustice.
- [12:34]
Andrew Muller
Well, to Cuba now, the Foreign Ministry of which has been impelled to great heights of indignant harrumph by reports that thousands of Cuban citizens have taken the Russian ruble and are helping to fill the depleted ranks now waging Russia's three and a half year, 72 hour lightning conquest of Ukraine. Ukrainian and US intelligence had suggested that at least a brigade's worth of Cubans had been lured by wages which, while objectively unspectacular, especially given the risks, are many multiples of what they could make at home. Cuba said that if any Cubans were serving beneath the Russian banner, it is, quote, irrefutable that none of them have the encouragement, commitment or consent of the Cuban state. Alena, in Ukraine, especially in your recent visits, is there much talk or much actual solid information about the foreigners who may or may not be fighting with Russia?
- [13:28]
Alena Hlivko
There has been quite a lot of reporting on the foreigners fighting on Russia's side. Of course, we all know the North Korean troops which are the majority on the front line. And it was extraordinary to see over the summer that even in North Korea, Kim Jong Un has officially recognized that North Korean troops were fighting in Ukraine, that they got killed. There was a big weeping session quite publicly that North Koreans are accustomed to, I suppose. And then Cubans were reported to be fighting on Russian side since 2023 and they were detected in airborne divisions as well as Wagner, which is notoriously known for paying even more than official Russian army and some Nepalese soldiers. So yes, it's been unfortunately a well known fact that there's quite a lot of foreigners, unfortunately from countries that are not very well off that go to Russia A to seek some employment, if we can call it that. But Also, I think that are coerced into it by the new forming global coalitions. And I think we should pay a really close attention to that. I personally interviewed two Russian prisoners of war who albeit were Russian citizens, but were from ethnic minorities in Buratia, further out to the east on the border with Mongolia. And they're all effectively saying the same thing when being questioned, just like Cuban soldiers were saying that they were tricked into its, that they would go work on a construction site or do training somewhere within Russia, not necessarily be sent to Ukraine. And the next thing they know, two days later they're on the front line in Donbas. We should study that very carefully. Who takes part in this war.
- [15:18]
Andrew Muller
There was obviously a time, Oscar, in which Cuba quite cheerfully and brazenly sent its troops abroad to fight Moscow's wars in other theaters. Do we think that is still going on? By which I guess I'm asking, are we buying Cuba? Cuba's denials that this is anything to do with us. Good heavens, no.
- [15:37]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
This is clearly not that time. The Cuban government has been very clear, not only in words. Between 2023 and 2025, Cuban courts have conducted at least nine criminal proceedings for the offense of mercenarism and involving at least 40 defendants, and at least 26 of those have been condemned to. And the guilty verdicts, I mean, the sentences they get are quite stern up to 14 years of imprisonment. And Cubans participating on both sides of the armed conflict, they have been, as we heard before, recruited through organizations not based in the country. In fact, in Latin America, we know that this phenomenon, this is a new industry. This is something that indeed we should pay more careful attention. It is known in Colombia, for instance, that there may be more Colombian mercenaries than Cubans fighting in Ukraine. We know there were Cuban Colombian mercenaries in the Emirates. We know they are fighting in Sudan. This is an industry. And these are, you know, these industries prey on people whose economic situation, you know, means they will easily fall into this kind of trade.
- [17:10]
Andrew Muller
On that subject, though, Alena, because obviously there are foreign volunteers fighting with Ukraine's armed forces as well, a couple of whom we met in Odessa, in fact, during that trip. But does it strike you that there is a difference in that it is probably more likely that people fighting alongside Ukraine's military are more motivated by the cause than the patriots.
- [17:35]
Alena Hlivko
I can't speak directly to specific categories like Oscar just mentioned Colombian fighters. I've also spoken to some friends on the front line who were sharing the fact that Colombians were actually in fact fleeing the drug cartel wars and found Ukrainian frontline to be slightly safer and guaranteed some sort of rate of survival that's higher. What we must look at is, of course, those fighters, whoever, hopefully survives, because every life matters. Go back to Colombia and train drug cartels to operate drones, for example, or implement defense AI into drug operation. So we're seeing proliferation, enormous proliferation of drone warfare and application of this new technology in all areas of our lives. So, again, that's something to watch very carefully. But in terms of your initial question, I think there is still a difference whether you're going to fight just for money, just for a paycheck, because as far as I know, Russia still pays way more than Ukraine is able to. And when you go to invade another country and plunder civilians and rape children, whereas when you go to the other side to fight for the nation that is defending its territory, I think there is a difference.
- [18:58]
Andrew Muller
Well, to Venezuela, now home of possibly the only person on earth more vexed than Donald Trump about the award of this year's Nobel Prize Prize for Peace, that person being Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, now reckoning with the fact that his principal opponent and general nemesis, Maria Corinna Machado, is now also a Nobel Peace Laureate and endowed with the profile, moral high ground and bully pulpit the gong bestows if, as has proved the case before, temporarily Maduro's congratulations to his fellow citizen on receipt of this tremendous honour have fallen short of the fulsome he denounced her as a demonic witness. Oscar, is that perhaps a bit harsh when your fellow citizens won the Nobel Peace Prize?
- [19:42]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
That would be harsh on anyone. The point, though, is how controversial that Nobel Prize has been in Latin America and how useful it can be in terms of actually doing what it is supposed to be doing, that is to say, to guarantee a peaceful transition into democracy in Venezuela. Because as many observers in Latin America have pointed out, the fact that the first thing Maria Corinina Machado did was not to dedicate the prize to the Venezuelan people, bad to Donald Trump. She said, I accept this prize in your name actually boosts the case that Maduro tends to make within Venezuela that his opponents are in cahoots with a Trump administration that right now is killing Venezuelans extrajudicially in the Caribbean Sea and amassing forces, you know, threatening forces that does not go down well. And you and I have had this conversation about her role within Venezuela in particular. I mean, it was quite stunning. I mean, I heard the Swedish Academy giving us three criteria for the award. The first one was, well, she unites the opposition Quite the opposite. She has divided the opposition. Even Enrique Capriles, who no one in their right mind would accuse, accused of left leaning tendencies, thinks her brand of politics is far too extreme and has been detrimental to the cohesion of a more moderate opposition that could present itself against Maduro. And as to peaceful transition, well, just this weekend, the letter that she wrote to then Argentinian President Macri and to Benjamin Netanyahu in 2018 asking for military support for an invasion in Venezuela, well, that doesn't does the kind of thing that would not go down very well within the country if you're precisely about to be invaded. I mean, and someone is asking for that invasion. That's not going to help towards a peaceful transition into democracy.
- [22:07]
Andrew Muller
I believe I am right in saying, Alena, that she did acknowledge or also include in her acknowledgement the Venezuelan people as such. But it was of course the shout out to President Trump that got all the headlines. What did you make of that? Was that an expression, do you think, of actual political fellow feeling with Trump or was that just her being political? Like she knows that Donald Trump wanted it, she knows that he will be angry that he didn't get it and she does not want to be the focus of that anger.
- [22:39]
Alena Hlivko
Well, that's the thing. Given the fact that she was quite close to the right leaning party across the globe, as Oscar just mentioned, and specifically Donald Trump, one could argue that she got herself or the Nobel Peace Prize committee got her into trouble with this because I'm sure that it was the most coveted prize for President Trump and he certainly doesn't like when he doesn't get what he wants. So on one hand, yes, that was a very political statement to appease Trump, to make herself into that iconic figure who could accept the Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of her people. Because otherwise, without the people, without the cause that you're getting the award for, it's not really worth much. So I think it was a very smart political statement. But whether it will actually contribute to change in the country, I'm not sure. I found that choice of Nobel Peace Prize at this time when we have several wars raging across the globe quite interesting and peculiar, especially as again, American troops and naval vessels have been kind of circling around Venezuela in the recent few weeks. Not much noticed in that area, but still there is some escalation. So maybe it's a way to support the nation in this time. But overall, let's just hope that there will one day be a democracy and peace in the country.
- [24:09]
Andrew Muller
Just finally and quickly on this one Oscar does it without making any judgment of whether she would be any better a president than Nicolas Maduro? Does it strengthen her position or does it at least make her safer? Is she less vulnerable now that she has a substantially larger global profile than she did a week ago?
- [24:28]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
That's the best we can hope for. It is the possibility that the prize protects leaders like her, people like her, and that she will choose to become a rallying point for unity. That's the dilemma she's facing now. Whether to choose for the kinds of calls for military invasion that we have heard from her before, or rather change tack and try and use the prestige that comes with this prize to rally a fully democratic opposition.
- [25:06]
Andrew Muller
Well, to Italy now and to what seems like one of those ideas that nobody would have bothered to have before there was social media on which to show off about it. It says here that Aqua Gardens, a thermal bath arrangement in vicinity of Verona, is hosting performances of dancers who cavort in elaborate looking costumes which cannot be comfortable in those conditions to the strains of Bizet's Carmen for an audience of towel draped patrons. Aqua Gardens claims quote, heat opens you up to emotion. So sauna and opera are the perfect combination. Counterpoint. No, they're not. Also points deducted for using Carmen when Pacini's Turand Hot was right there. So was Verdi's Hotelo or Prokofiev's Warp and Peace or Wagner's Master Singers of Nuremberg and depending on what kind of sauna we're talking about. Or G and Bess. Come on, I worked on those all afternoon.
- [26:00]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
You did?
- [26:01]
Andrew Muller
And yet, Alena, I went to Covent Garden wearing nothing but a towel and they called the police. It's one law. It's one law for Italians, one law for. Are you tempted by this idea at all?
- [26:11]
Alena Hlivko
I think, Andrew, you're meant to go to the sauna wearing a towel, not Covent Garden just to walk around.
- [26:17]
Andrew Muller
Well, I know that now.
- [26:18]
Alena Hlivko
That may be a crucial detail that you missed.
- [26:21]
Andrew Muller
I know that now. Would you be tempted by this?
- [26:24]
Alena Hlivko
I would be so up for it. Really, as a lover of saunas, I would take any sauna any day, especially when it gets dark and gloomy and cold. If there is an opera in there. I mean, I'm not sure about Wagner or the War and Peace, but nonetheless I would welcome any opportunity. I'm a regular sauna goer I have.
- [26:45]
Andrew Muller
But is the opera any added enticement?
- [26:48]
Alena Hlivko
Well, see, I'm not sure about that because just recently I've also seen another invention in Copenhagen. If I'm not mistaken of having a DJ inside of a sorta. So then you get some serious techno beats in there. And I'm probably against both of them. I just want my peace and quiet and some mint oil and I'm good to go.
- [27:08]
Andrew Muller
Yeah. I mean, I would, I would, I would posit, Oscar, that opera should probably be confined to opera houses and DJs should just not be allowed anywhere under any circumstances.
- [27:19]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
I love the sound of water dripping on the stones. I don't want that mixed with my Puccini.
- [27:26]
Andrew Muller
Yeah. Is this something else stupid which has basically happened because of Instagram?
- [27:31]
Oscar Guardiola Rivera
Absolutely. I mean, that's the idea. I love sauna. I love having my time there. Among other reasons. Why? Because if you're but naked, no place for the telephones, you have to leave it outside. Everybody should try that.
- [27:49]
Andrew Muller
Well, on that heartwarming note, Oscar Guardiola Rivera and Alena Hlivko, thank you both for joining us. Finally, on today's show, those who have visited London over a protracted period may have memories of the city's once terrible culinary reputation. Those dreary decades when new arrivals were solemnly cautioned, if it's warm, it's beer, if it's cold, it's soup. It wasn't until the 1990s that that all changed with a restaurant revolution. Andrew Terville, restaurant critic and former editor of the Good Food Guide, has documented the transformation in his new book, Blood, Sweat and Asparagus Spears. He sat down with Monocle's Monica Lillis to discuss what inspired him to write.
- [28:30]
Andrew Turval
Well, I started at a Good Food Guide way back at the beginning of the 90s, in fact, just at the end of 1989 and the restaurant. I didn't know at the time that the restaurant world was about to have a quite a radical change because back then it was very traditional dining was very gastronomy was very French orientated menus written in French. British food was kind of cavalries and curry houses. But it was a very kind of slightly predictable dining scene. And when I started to write the book, it dawned on me what an exciting time I was at the Good Food guide in the 1990s. What amazing things had actually happened and how food eating in the UK really came of age in that decade. So that's why I started, you know, that's why I wrote the books. I thought there's so many amazing things, things happened in a short period of time.
- [29:16]
Monica Lillis
And what do you think it was about that time period? Like, what do you think the recipe was essentially about that early 1990s period that set the stage for this birth of a celebrity chef.
- [29:27]
Andrew Turval
Well, first off, it was the sort of legendary French chefs like Raymond Blanc and Albert Roux and Pierre Kaufman. They were sort of the big stars in that sort of 70s and 80s, and they trained up a whole generation. Pretty much most chefs in top restaurants were French or European. There weren't many Brits in the kitchens in the sort of 70s. So these guys trained up a whole new generation of British and Irish chefs who were really interested, you know, inspired by their brand of French cooking, but then took it. Once they got older and they went out on their own, they sort of took it forward. They really got into the kind of the produce on these shores really start. Started to sort of experiment away from some of the traditional French recipes. So people like Marco Pierre White very much steeped in French classical cooking. But when he appeared on the scene, he was such a radical departure in his style and his energy. Chefs didn't look like that back then. They weren't that cool for a start. So these young people started making real changes to how we eat in this country.
- [30:27]
Monica Lillis
Marco Pierre White, in particular, why did you pick him? As a hinge for the change? Obviously. He's on the front cover. He is kind of the main character of this book. Why did you pick him in particular?
- [30:40]
Andrew Turval
Yeah, I think that's.
- [30:41]
Andrew Muller
That's a.
- [30:41]
Andrew Turval
Partly that's personal and. But also I think he is kind of the godfather of our modern restaurant culture, really. When White Heat came out, it was a. The book came out in 1990. It seems to mark perfectly the beginning of the decade. He'd opened his restaurant Harvey's in 1987, and that's when he started to really get. I think you already had two Michelin stars by 1990, I believe, and then got his third in 1995 somewhere else. But when Harvey's opened, which I never went to, there was a lot of energy, a lot of buzz about the place and something about when he bought the book out in 1990. I've spoken to loads of chefs like. Like Tom Kerridge, for example, who have been. Were inspired by those images of that because it's a, you know, it's a harbor fresh profession, it's a lonely profession, it's a brutal profession. And suddenly it became sexy, it became fashionable. People say, look, that's what I do. That's. That's how cool it is. You can't underestimate that, really. I mean, his food was. I mean, plenty of people who had his food back In Harvey says, you know, people like Faye Mashler think, the renowned restaurant critic think it's about as good as he's ever got eating in this country. So he was. He was a master himself, but he also had that image. When you get those two things, things together, it changes everything. He wasn't really a celebrity chef, not in the 90s, in the. In the way we would view what a celebrity chef wasn't. He was pretty much just obsessed with getting Michelin stars, which he managed to achieve his third one in 1995. He wasn't on TV. He wasn't really doing a lot of interviews. The mainstream of popular cookie moving into the mainstream happened at the same time. You know, that's the popularization of television shows like Ready Steady Cook. They all started around the mid-90s, and the proliferation of cookbooks and interest in food really grew. Marco was kind of alongside that, doing his things, like an obsessive, trying to achieve his goal, inspiring people. But food was also moving into the mainstream at the same time.
- [32:31]
Monica Lillis
Speaking of kind of the celebrity chef, from what I see, and kind of the way that as a food journalist and a radio producer and the way that I book things, press releases and books, et cetera, are all hinged around one chef, have you seen a shift at all from that period about the importance of one establishment having like a dominant figurehead, or is it more about the whole picture now?
- [32:58]
Andrew Turval
That's interesting question. I think that it's interesting if you look at someone like, there's always seem to be somebody who's the flavor of the month, who seems to be absolutely everywhere, and it's probably Tom Kerridge at the moment with M and S and et cetera. So there always seems to be somebody that is at the forefront, and it's for all various different reasons to sort of seem to fit the cultural mood at the time. But they're all on social media. You know, Jamie Oliver is.
- [33:19]
Andrew Muller
Yeah.
- [33:19]
Andrew Turval
It's got huge numbers of followers on Instagram and stuff. And now you can just get their recipes, follow who you want, cook their recipes at home. You can even call up the recipe while you're in the supermarket to see what ingredients you need. You know, it's a very. It's a very different landscape. But I don't think we haven't fallen out with love with food, and we haven't fallen out of love with chefs. We know a lot more about them now. But I don't think it's. I don't think it's that different from it was Back then.
- [33:41]
Monica Lillis
And do you think social media has made being a celebrity chef more different? Is it, like, more difficult? Is it this democratization of recipe making or, you know, people can follow who they want? Do you think that makes it more difficult to kind of stand out in a sense?
- [33:57]
Andrew Turval
Yes, I think it does. I think it does. It's this kind of be demystified a bit, hasn't it? And we'll follow. If we like someone's food, we'll follow them, whatever their credentials. But that's. That's kind of reflects in a way the kind of the death of the expert, doesn't it, in a way? And the chefs are kind of like the ultimate. The professional chef in the kitchen is like the ultimate food expert. But if we see something that we like on Instagram, we'll follow it. If we like their food, we'll try it. And if it works, you know, there's lots of people who've had no professional training, but there were plenty of chefs. Like Raymond Blanc was never actually formally trained. That's not unusual. Heston Blumenthal was never formally trained.
- [34:31]
Andrew Muller
So.
- [34:32]
Andrew Turval
So, you know, it's. It's got. It's. I think it's a really exciting, exciting time.
- [34:36]
Andrew Muller
That was Andrew Turval, author of Blood, Sweat and Asparagus Spears, the story of the 1990s restaurant revolution. It's out now. He was talking to Monica Lillas. That's all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Alyona Livco and Oscar Guadiola Rivera. The show was produced by Tom Webb and researched by Joanna Moser. Our sound engineer was Elliot Greenfield. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening. Sat.