The stakes of the Xi-Putin summit for Taiwan and Ukraine

Summary

The Monocle Daily – May 19, 2026

Episode: The stakes of the Xi-Putin summit for Taiwan and Ukraine
Host: Andrew Muller
Guests: Hannah Lucinda Smith (Monocle correspondent), Alexander Gerlach (Professor of Political Philosophy and Geopolitics, NYU)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the high-stakes meeting between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin in Beijing, exploring what their deepening alliance means for global geopolitics—especially regarding Taiwan and Ukraine. The panel also discusses shifting dynamics in the Middle East (with a special focus on Turkey and Israel), the rising backlash against AI, and finishes with a whimsical look at name-based communities like the “Council of Andrews.”

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1. The Xi-Putin Summit: What’s at Stake?

(Timestamps: [03:06]–[12:27])

Key Discussion Points

• Xi-Putin Meeting Context ([03:06])

  • The 25th anniversary of their “Treaty of Good Neighbourliness and Friendly Cooperation” serves as a ceremonial backdrop to a deeper recalibration of the China-Russia relationship.
  • China is now “very much the senior partner” ([03:06], Andrew) due to its superior economic and military position.

• Diminishing Balance in the Xi-Putin Dynamic ([04:10]–[05:46])

  • Alexander: Xi is also behaving as the senior partner with the United States, after “Donald Trump has been behaving like giving away everything America could possibly have had in its hands.”

    “For the first time...the American and the Chinese President had to meet eye to eye...Donald Trump begged for a whole year to get this appointment in Beijing to then do like a big great deal, which we did not know what this was about. And then he ran around and said, ‘Xi’s my friend.’ And Xi only mentioned the relationship of the two countries. Now, with Putin, a real ‘friend’ is there—the no limits friend.” ([04:32])

  • Xi’s alignment with Putin presents a contrast with his more transactional approach to Trump.

• Why China Keeps Russia Close ([05:46])

  • Hannah: China benefits from Russia as a counterweight against the West and as part of a broader bloc including Iran.
    • There are, however, areas of rivalry—particularly in Central Asia, where “China’s kind of overtaken Russia...through investment and trade, but also through things like language courses” ([06:41]).

• China Watching Russia as a “Laboratory” ([07:17])

  • Andrew’s Theory: China watches Russia’s Ukraine campaign as a test case—“let’s see what stupid stuff Russia does next and then not do that.”
  • Alexander: China has learned “there is no such thing as an easy feat, an easy victory,” a lesson crucial regarding Taiwan ([07:52]).

• The Taiwan Question

  • Trump’s unpredictability is a source of concern for allies.
  • Alexander: Trump is “willing to have Taiwan as a bargaining chip” ([10:58])
  • This stance “is terrible news for every ally from Australia, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Vietnam...This is the end of American hegemony” ([11:45]).

Notable Quotes

• Hannah: “I don't think even Trump knows these things, frankly. I mean, mercurial doesn't even begin to cut it, does it?” ([09:27])
• Alexander: “Trump...might either halt or alter the already contracted weapons sales...terrible news for every ally...the end of American hegemony.” ([10:58]–[11:45])

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2. Turkey’s Strategy Amid Regional Chaos

(Timestamps: [12:27]–[18:22])

Key Discussion Points

• Turkey’s Dilemma in the Persian Gulf War ([13:15])

  • Hannah: Turkey’s proximity to conflict and status as a NATO member complicates its position, especially with US nuclear warheads at Incirlik Air Base.
  • Ambivalence is driven by Erdogan’s rivalry with Israel and cultural/sectarian divides with Iran.

• Turkey and Israel: From Allies to Adversaries ([14:30])

  • Alexander: Erdogan leverages Ottoman history for political legitimacy and uses the Gaza issue strategically.

    “He tries to invigorate or re-highlight the Ottoman past...he is in the same category like the other strongmen that populate this world.” ([15:02])

  • Hannah: The rupture is deep and not easily reversible; Erdogan’s Islamism informs both domestic and foreign posturing.

    “This is just as much about domestic politics...as it is about the plight of the Palestinians.” ([17:01])

Notable Moments

• Hannah on the Turkish public’s reaction to Palestinians:
  “A lot of the time they don’t receive a very nice reception because there’s a huge amount of racism towards Arabs in Turkey...this is just as much about domestic politics and Erdogan creating this image for himself.” ([17:01])

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3. AI: Public Backlash and Skepticism

(Timestamps: [18:22]–[26:35])

Key Discussion Points

• AI Fatigue and Skepticism ([18:22]–[19:19])

  • Americans are increasingly wary: “An overwhelming majority...believe AI is moving too quickly and that there is widespread skepticism that it’s going to do many people much good.” ([19:01])
  • Google’s former CEO Eric Schmidt gets booed during a university commencement speech ([18:50]).

• Inserting Ethics into AI ([19:19])

  • Alexander: Tech leaders are “trying to put ethics and values into AI” (e.g., Vatican-hosted summits), but public trust is hard to win back.

• AI and Journalism: Threats to Trust ([20:03])

  • Hannah: Frustration isn’t with the technology itself, but with how it erodes public trust in journalism and creativity.

    “It’s not so much the technology itself...every technology, it is neither good or bad. Right? It’s how you apply it.” ([20:31])

  • Instances of AI-created “fake quotes” (e.g., cited nonfiction books) fuel skepticism.

• Real-World Impact: Academia and Jobs ([21:39]–[23:28])

  • Alexander: Students are realizing that using AI-generated essays is harmful (“It’s not doing them any good...no one believes they’re doing it anymore.”)
  • Entry-level jobs in consulting, law, and banking are already vanishing due to AI—a “measurable” and “significant” effect ([22:56]).

• Cultural/Philosophical Limits of AI

  • Alexander: Values like forgiveness and grace are being debated as “software features”—but “AI cannot replicate original human feelings.”

    “That’s why journalists, writers will be on the job and will be staying in a job. Cause it cannot replicate original human feelings.” ([26:35])

Memorable Quotes

• Andrew: “I have had an argument with ChatGPT about who the Pope is.” ([21:29])
• Hannah: “Do you remember non-fungible tokens?” ([25:09])
• Alexander: “We need to introduce something like forgiveness and grace into the discourse with AI so they know they can make a mistake, but then they will be forgiven.” ([25:34])

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4. Name Games: The Council of Andrews

(Timestamps: [26:35]–[37:40])

Key Discussion Points

• “Good” and “Bad” Names: Living with Alexander, Hannah, and Andrew ([26:35]–[30:52])

  • The hosts and panelists reflect on the burden and universality of their names, from “Alexander the Great” to “Hannah Arendt.”
  • Alexander: “It's understood in all corners of the world...not a tainted name, I can use it everywhere.” ([27:23])

• The Council of Andrews ([31:13])

  • Andrew Lloyd (guest): The Council was born from loneliness and the desire for community, quickly growing to thousands of members.

    “He just started randomly friend requesting other Andrews on Facebook...I think there's something about Andrews I want to hang out with other Andrews.” ([31:13])

  • The group organizes Drewfests, provides scholarships, supports members in need, and has “friendly enemies” among other name-based collectives (like the “Bens” and “Ryans”).

• Community and Camaraderie

  “The longer I spent in the group, the more arbitrary the united faction of being called Andrew was...They join as a joke…but actually, they form bonds that have lasted many years now.” ([33:55]–[34:46])

Humorous Highlights

• The rivalry with “Bens,” “Ryans,” and Bosnian “Ivans”—“friendly enemies” ([36:19]).
• The joys and dangers of seeing your own name thousands of times until it loses meaning ([37:18]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alexander Gerlach:

  “This is the end of American hegemony...this is a long term, maybe not reversible damage Donald Trump has done to the American alliances and the security of the United States itself.” ([12:15])

• Hannah Lucinda Smith:

  “It is not like, you know, trusted media was at an all time high. It was not...but I do have hope. I’m an optimist.” ([24:27])

• On the Council of Andrews:

  “If you just want the surreal experience of losing sense of your own name because you've seen it so many times on the screen that it doesn't even recognize and resonate as a name anymore, that's quite fun as well.” ([37:18], Andrew Lloyd)

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Key Timestamps

• [03:06] – Start of main discussion: Xi-Putin summit
• [04:10] – Analysis of power dynamics between China, Russia, and the US
• [05:46] – China’s motivations for partnering with Russia
• [07:17] – Russia as China’s “living laboratory”
• [09:08] – The U.S.’s position on Taiwan and Ukraine under Trump
• [10:58] – Taiwan’s reaction and security dilemma
• [13:15] – Turkey’s complex role in Middle East conflicts
• [18:22] – Public pushback against AI and its implications
• [21:29] – “Arguing with ChatGPT about who the Pope is”
• [26:35] – Philosophical debate: can AI ever replace writers?
• [31:13] – “Council of Andrews” interview
• [36:19] – Name-based community rivalries

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Tone & Style

The conversation maintains Monocle’s signature—erudite, witty, and cosmopolitan with light-hearted asides balancing critical global analysis.

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For listeners wanting brisk international analysis, glimpses into shifting alliances, and a few smiles over the existential weirdness of “Andrew pride,” this episode encapsulates both the seriousness of world affairs and the lighter side of identity in a globalized world.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 19 May 2026 on Monocle Radio.

[B]

What will Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping find to talk about? What if nobody actually wants AI and Andrews of the world unite? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts now. Hello and welcome to the Mon Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests, Alexander Gerlach and Hannah Lucinda Smith will discuss the day's big stories and we'll find out about the organization attempting to rescue a noble name from ill deserved odium. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller. I'm joined today by Hannah Lucinda Smith, Monocle' correspondent, and by Alexander Gerlach, professor of political philosophy and geopolitics at New York University. Hello to you both.

[C]

Hello.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

We will be having a literary themed light introductory banter segment. But Hannah, your book is actually finished and in shops, so you get to go first. Those are the rules.

[A]

Oh, fantastic. Well, it's nearly in the shops.

[B]

Okay, you still get to go first.

[A]

Excellent. Wonderful. Yeah. Two weeks and a little bit starts on June 4th. It's called Hinterlands Journeys around Europe's Unfinished Frontiers. And it brings together reporting that I've done over the past decade from some of the kind of lesser known hotspots in the confrontation that's going on in Europe between broadly Putin's Russia and the west. So NATO and the European Union. So places like Transnistria, that's an unrecognized part of Moldova, like Nagorno Karabakh in the Caucasus, places in the Balkans, in Cyprus, the kind of states that don't exist in some ways geopolitical backwaters. But as I argue in the book, very, very central to what's going on.

[B]

We will be talking about that book more in greater detail when I have finished reading it. And that discussion will take place on a later daily. Alexander, you are embarking upon a work of narrative nonfiction, as I believe the cool kids are calling it.

[C]

That's indeed the case. And I've been writing like non fiction books about geopolitics, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, all these uplifting topics where I thought like I need to genre in order to keep sanity. And so I chose that genre that you just called narrative nonfiction. Indeed. And it's just by divine intervention. Last week I met, I saw online this ad for this workshop, literary workshop, with a very esteemed agent and book author herself. And yes, we had like a week of writing, writing exercises, guided meditations, and I got into the flow of writing this book about my life.

[B]

Excellent. Well, we look forward to talking about that in greater detail when it is finished and bound between two hard covers. But we start tonight in Beijing, where no sooner has the red carpet been rolled up following the departure of US President Donald Trump that it has been kicked back out again in anticipation of the arrival of Russian President Vladimir Putin. For Chinese President Xi Jinping, this visit should be somewhat less of a grind. Xi is now very much the senior partner in this relationship, ruling a country with an economy about 15 times the size of that of his guest, with a military not getting smashed up, waging a revanchist folly, at least not yet. And certainly Putin will oblige Xi to endure a great deal less wittering about windmills and ballrooms. Alexander, the headline here is the 25th anniversary of, I wrote this down, the Treaty of Good Neighbourliness and Friendly Cooperation. Do we suspect that's the real reason that Putin and Xi really wanted to get together to, to drink a toast to the 25th anniversary of the Treaty of etc.

[C]

Well, the Chinese Communist Party always has like this easy like going titles for stuff, right? But I feel like when you said, when you said that she's the senior partner with Putin, he's also the senior partner now with Donald Trump. Donald Trump has been behaving like giving away everything America could possibly have had in its hands. But now saying, if President Trump's listening

[B]

right now, Alexander, you are going to cop it on social media later.

[C]

Well, I've already published this like in numbers media because it's like it was even staggering and stunning for me that this has happened, that for the first time, like the American and the Chinese president had to meet eye to eye or did meet eye to eye before that, it was always kind of like, not necessarily always condescending, but it was clear who was the leader in the room. Donald Trump begged for a whole year to get this appointment, this meeting in Beijing to then do like a big great deal, which we did not know what this was about. And then he ran around and said, she's my friend. And she only mentioned the relationship of the two countries now with Putin, a real friend is there the no limits friend. And that's a completely different like, understanding those two men have with each other. And Trump just leaves and made himself again like an idiot, in my opinion.

[B]

Lucinda, as you were mentioning, your, your new book does consider it quite a Few places on the other side of China where Russia has stuck its ore in to varying extents in recent years. But in this relationship now, as Alexander correctly points out, it grows ever more imbalanced. But what is China's interest in maintaining it? Does there a point at which China starts to wonder what are we doing with these deadbeats?

[A]

Yeah, certainly. I mean, I think, you know, it's been quite useful for China to sort of not totally ally with Russia, but to sort of get itself on that side. You can see kind of two big global blocs that have been forming over the past 10 years or even more. On the one side, the kind of, you know, the traditional powers, places like, well, principally the U.S. also NATO, but then on the other side, Russia, China, Iran and other countries, kind of smaller countries forming around that. And I think, you know, we've seen China sort of siding with Russia pretty much at the UN when it comes to Ukraine. But there are also places where Russia and China are in competition. I think one of the really interesting one of these is Central Asia. If you look after the collapse of the Soviet Union, you know, these are places, places like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, used to be part of the Soviet Union, became independent states, still had a huge Russian influence. You have the west trying to gain influence there as well. And what's happened over the past few years, particularly since the invasion of Ukraine, is that China's kind of overtaken Russia and it's making a conscious effort to do that. It's doing that through, principally through investment and trade, but also through. Through things like language courses. And it's really, really interesting how effective that is, partly because Russia is so kind of distracted by what it's doing in Ukraine, but also because China is taking this sort of more muscular approach.

[B]

Alexander, is there an element here? And this is where I shamelessly impose my own pet theory on the discussion, that China sort of sees Russia as a useful living laboratory, that is, let's see what stupid stuff Russia does next and then not do that. And the one that's obviously the test case now is that Russia has embarked on a military escapade to recover what it sees as a temporarily rogue province and has discovered the hard way that, wow, that was easier than we thought it was. That was harder rather than we thought it was going to be.

[C]

Well, that's also true for America's quest now, indeed so in Iran. So I think China learns. And it is also in regard to Taiwan, it sees, like there is no such thing as an easy feat, an easy victory, and it sees it with its ally Russia, and it sees also with its rival or enemy, arch enemy, whatever you want to call this American Chinese relationship. And I think that is what binds them. It's like China is an ally of Russia and Iran. They all are allies of Venezuela. And of course, they saw in the last half year that Trump could erode these alliances. So I think China is well aware that they need also partners as long as they also know they are the leader in this group. Right. And I think that's also something those two have to discuss now in Beijing. What do they make of the abduction, they call it of Maduro? What do they make of the war against Iran? Again, like one of their allies. And already the whole world is spiraling down in who buys weapons from whom. They learned, like, Ukraine is good in fighting the drones from Russia. So let's like Turkey is building them now, too. It's kind of like a whole array in the world. So many things are moving. What I mean by this is even China being such a big behemoth, they also need, like, some anchors in the world in reality where say, okay, we can rely on these countries as partners.

[B]

It does seem likely, Hannah, that U.S. president Donald Trump will come up as a topic of conversation. Are they, or indeed we, any the wiser as to what Trump actually thinks about Ukraine and Taiwan and what Trump might or might not actually do about either Ukraine or Taiwan?

[A]

I don't think even Trump knows these things, frankly. I mean, mercurial doesn't even begin to cut it, does it?

[B]

Mercurial is a very, very charitable description, I think.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there are. This is no secret. There are people who say that Trump is basically swayed by the last person that he spoke to. And I think that's probably quite accurate. I mean, this seems to have been quite a friendly meeting, doesn't it, in Beijing? You know, he's probably come away feeling quite pleased with himself. And there's this very interesting story that came out in the ft, which has been absolutely refuted by China, that apparently Xi Jinping turned around to Trump in that meeting and said, well, you know, Putin might regret going into Ukraine. Do you think that happened?

[B]

I mean, I think Putin already must regret going into Ukraine because I'm pretty sure whatever the plan was, this wasn't it. But just before we move off this subject, Alexander, we should talk about Taiwan, a place where you live for a period and have reported on extensively. We did hear from President Lai Ching Ti this week in the wake of Trump's visit to Beijing, going in very Hard reinforcing the status quo. That is we're not going to do anything stupid, but we also do not wish our sovereignty to be impeded. Basically saying, just leave us alone. It's fine as it is. Do you think that's still the attitude of most Taiwanese people?

[C]

Well, I feel like that just yesterday brought to light that Trump is, and he said this in several public appearances, that he's willing to have Taiwan as a bargaining chip with like, whatever negotiation. He was not clear about this. He might be embarking on next with Xi Jinping by saying like, he might either halt or alter the already like, contracted weapons sales of a value of 14 billion to Taiwan. And just remember, the first Trump administration strengthened the relationship with Taiwan and actually put into law that they will be continuing to deliver weapons. Why? Because they said like, the status quo cannot be unilaterally be changed. This strategically ambiguity has held for so long and now by Trump saying like, well, maybe I just chip it in and whatever, she and I are going to like this negotiate. This is terrible news for every ally from Australia, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Vietnam, these are all allies, treaty allies or like whatever comprehensive partnership allies of the United States. The old build and bunk on American military support. And this is all gone with this idiotic thing of saying like, oh, maybe I just think differently about the weapon sales I already approved of. So this is why I would say this is the end of American hegemony. Is that how you say it?

[B]

Germany? Near enough Germany, yes.

[C]

But this is like, this is like, this is a long term, maybe not reversible damage Donald Trump has done to the American alliances and the security of the United States itself.

[B]

Well, to Turkey now, which very much not for the first time in its history, is attempting to calculate what benefit it may accrue from the chaos which surrounds it. Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan has been visiting Berlin where his German opposite number, Johann Vaderful noted accurately. If obviously that Turkey had the potential to exert considerable influence across the Middle east, he does not need to explain this to Gulf states in particular, which as a consequence of recent ructions are spending big on Turkish built drones and air defence Kit Hannah, obviously Turkey would be glad of the business. But beyond that, do we know what view Turkey by which obviously we have to acknowledge we mean President Recep Tayyip Erdogan takes of the war in the Persian Gulf. Does he actually care one way or the other who is in charge in Tehran?

[A]

I think, look, this war is quite an inconvenience for Turkey. It put Turkey in quite a difficult spot at the start because obviously Turkey is a NATO member in the Inculik air base close to Adana. It has US nuclear warhead stationed there. And that was the reason why, right in those early weeks, there were a couple of Iranian missiles sent over towards Turkey. One of them came down in Syria, another one was shot down. And it really put Turkey in this really tight spot because, of course, you can't just let that fly. If Erdogan, right, he had to say something about it. But then if you go in too strong, then you end up on the side of the US but more problematically of Israel, which is Erdogan's sworn enemy because of what's going on in Gaza and also for many years before that as well. So I think it's really been a bit of a headache for Turkey in knowing exactly where to position themselves. You know, the relationship between Turkey and Iran is always complicated. There are obviously two regional powers. Turkey is a Sunni power, Iran is a Shia power. They share this huge border. They have, in some senses, shared problems. They both have Kurdish minorities, often restive. But I think, you know, just in general, Turkey would prefer this war not to have happened.

[B]

I mean, on the subject, Alexander, of the relationship with Israel, Turkey is, In the last 48 hours or so up in arms about what it is called a new act of piracy. This is the IDF intercepting a protest flotilla that sailed from Turkey with the ambition of reaching Gaza. It's a question, I think you could ask reasonably, of regimes across the Middle East. But where Turkey in particular is concerned, does Erdogan actually care about Gaza as such, or is it something that he finds useful occasionally?

[C]

Well, Azer Erdogan has been making clear, abundantly clear during his reign that he tries to invigorate or to re highlight the Ottoman past. And I think that's why he thinks he has to say something about this region, which is not the Holy Land, Israel, Palestine, whatever, and the whole region. And he has been in a feud since 2010 with the Israelis when he at the World Economic Forum, like we're talking down on Shimon Peres and left the stage. It's kind of like. So there is a. There is this regional. We are like somewhere here. We were like here for centuries and protected this area. And now, you know, you see, like in Jerusalem, nuns being kicked by Israeli settlers, churches destroyed, Palestinian Christians persecuted. So you would say, okay, maybe the Ottomans, when they had like, the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, maybe the Christians and the religious Minorities were safer. So you have like, to answer your question, I think he's like, of course, invested in that sense. It's a strategic invest. He also said, like, oh, our today's borders of Turkey might not just be our borders forever. So he is in the same catego like the other strongmen that populate this world. And I would totally agree with you that, like everyone, Turkey would be happy if this war never started. And it comes down to the United States, to Donald Trump, who got probably talked into this war by Benjamin Netanyahu without any clear war aim. And so this is why the whole world, and this region in particular now, is in upheaval.

[B]

And there was a time, Hannah, when Turkey and Israel, all things considered, and certainly relative to Israel and the rest of the Middle east, actually got on pretty. But the relationship is now absolutely dismal. It's been reported today that Israel is considering closing its consulate in Istanbul and just leaving the embassy in Ankara, which at any rate, currently has nobody in it because all the Israeli diplomatic staff stationed in Turkey are, in fact working out of Bulgaria. I mean, is this actually repairable? Is it imaginable that, you know, the two strongmen, Netanyahu and Erdogan, might eventually find reason to shake hands?

[A]

I would not put money on it. This is a toxic relationship. If you go back before Erdogan Turkey had, it was in the position of being one of the few Muslim majority states that had really good relations with Israel. And that kind of gave it a position of strength. But there's something that we haven't mentioned about Erdogan. I mean, he is an Islamist. He's a Muslim Brotherhood Islamist. This is where he comes from. This is where his support base comes from. And you mentioned, Alex 2010 in Davos, when he took on Shimon Peres over the treatment of Palestinians, that was as much about Erdogan talking to his base at home and presenting himself as a certain type of leader as it was about international affairs. The interesting thing is actually when Palestinians come to Turkey either as tourists or as refugees, and, you know, because they've seen Erdogan sort of positioning himself as their protector, they imagine that all Turks are going to be very nice to them. And actually, a lot of the time they don't receive a very nice reception because there's a huge amount of racism towards Arabs in Turkey. And this really, I think, speaks to how this is just as much about domestic politics and Erdogan creating this image for himself as a kind of strong Islamic leader who's protecting the interests of Muslims really more than it is about the plight of the Palestinians.

[B]

Well, moving on to the perceptibly gathering surge of popular irritation with AI, that thing that Earth's most annoying rich people seem insistent on foisting upon us. Google CEO Eric Schmidt, delivering a commencement speech recently recently at the University of Arizona, thumped the tub about the possibilities of AI. Anticipated applause, very possibly from grateful graduates who hadn't had to write any of their own essays, but received instead a chorus of derision.

[D]

I know what many of you are feeling about that. I can hear you. There is a fear,

[B]

A mixed response there. This view appears echoed by recent polling which suggests that an overwhelming majority of Americans believe AI is moving too quickly and that there is widespread skepticism that it's going to do many people much good. Alexander, should we just pull the plug on it while we still can?

[C]

Well, I feel, I feel that would be. Obviously that's also not going to happen. And I feel like any technological innovation, it will take much longer to wipe out whole industries and whole professions as it has been in the past. But there have been considerably like initiatives to put, so to speak, ethics and values into AI. All these, Reid Hoffman and all others, many others of these tech bohemians went to the Vatican for many times now to discuss ethics in AI. They said they would also do this with Buddhists and other religions. They feel like they need to put some value in whatever they are programming in terms of like gain and garner public acceptance. But also I feel, some of them do probably also feel that you cannot just let this go unhindered.

[B]

I mean, some breaking headlines from the New York Times. Hannah, Fortuitously for the purposes of this conversation, Steph Rosenbaum, it says here the author of the Future of Truth acknowledged that the non fiction book about the effects of AI on truth included misattributed or fake quotes concocted by AI. Speaking as a journalist and writer, where would you estimate your levels of irritation with the whole thing?

[A]

Yeah, pretty, pretty high. It's something. It's not so much the technology itself. Look, I think every technology, it is neither good or bad. Right? It's how you apply it.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Right. And it's clear that there are some very, very useful applications of AI. I mean, I no longer have to sit and transcribe notes from my dictaphone from interviews that I've done.

[B]

That was a tedious thing to have to do, I will grant you.

[A]

Oh, it was so tedious, wasn't it? But I do get very irritated with people who ask me, well, do you get AI to write your articles and I say, well, well, I'm a writer because I enjoy writing. I don't do it because it's going to bring me great riches. I do it because I enjoy doing it. And also I do get very, very irritated with people who think that, you know, ChatGPT or whatever, whatever AI model they're using is some kind of oracle that's only giving them the truth, when in fact it's, you know, scraping whatever from the Internet and regurgitating, as I

[B]

have said from this chair more than once, I, I have had an argument with ChatGPT about who the Pope is. Spoile, right?

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Alexandria, are you noticing though? Because we did hear a whole bunch of students there of the AI generation very much booing Eric Schmidt of Google. And there have been reports of similar receptions being accorded Tech bros trying to speak at colleges recently. Has it been your experience in actually working in academia and dealing with students that they are beginning to realize that having all their essays written for them, it's not doing them any good? And it's not doing any good to the ones who actually are writing their own essays because no one believes they're doing it anymore.

[C]

So when I task my students with this at nyu, they had to write like their own learning passage through the seminar and what discussions we had, what literature they read. So where I could have to feel in the sense they could not somewhere like just copy that or get this generated. And I would also be hoping they enjoyed going, choosing my seminar to begin with so that it shouldn't be that much of a pain to write about their own journey. However, what's happening, aside of the anecdotal references, is that from recent numbers between 2022 and now, there's a significant drop of graduates finding a new job. And that's their first job. And that's because entry level jobs are killed by AI, let's say in consulting and law and banking, which are the three major industries that you go into in America when you have to pay off a huge debt from college. So that is already measurable. And I think that's clearly only in the mind of people like Peter Thiel or whatever who believe in big disruptions and no can sustain by people that just only enter on middle and high level. It's like obviously clear that you need entry level jobs in order to have people that are knowledgeable about your industry. So this is just like it's not going to work. And I think the students are onto something and there are Numbers that support their claims.

[B]

I just want to pick up on that thing you were saying, Hannah, about people asking you whether you use one of these Speak youk Wait machines to write your own articles. Is there a serious worry that that perception is just further undermining trust in media if this assumption becomes widespread that people are just not even bothering to write the stuff that appears under their byline? There have already been a number of scandals of this sort in journalism. There's one potentially. I don't really want to talk about it on air because it's not confirmed yet. Absolutely hilarious literary scandal boiling up at the moment, I sense. You know the one I'm talking about. But we should probably leave it until confir. But it does undermine people's trust in absolutely everything. This is the literary equivalent of video assisted refereeing in football. No one knows whether they're supposed to applaud the goal or not. No one knows whether they're allowed enjoy this short story or that article or that book or not.

[A]

Right, Absolutely. And it's not like, you know, trusted media was at an all time high. It was not.

[B]

Which is astonishing given what absolutely robust moral constructs all journalists always are.

[A]

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, it is not great. This has come. AI is really sort of booming at a time when already, you know, trust in media was really, really on its knees almost. But I, I do have hope. I'm an optimist. Look, I. I feel like over the past probably decade I've had my socks bored off by various people about things that they've, you know, been evangelical about and then have disappeared. Do you remember non fungible tokens?

[B]

Oh, hugely.

[A]

Right. Remember everyone talking about that non stop for a couple of years. What happened to that? It's, you know, it's disappeared. Right. So I think there's a certain type of person who gets very, very excited about things. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive here. Yeah. I can see by your face.

[B]

Did you spend half a million dollars on a small cartoon of an ennui stricken ape?

[A]

No, I did not. Neither have I bought cryptocurrency. Another thing there.

[C]

I also got quickly chip in here. Obviously it's about how we train AI. Right. It's kind of like this is why I feel like this debates now that I mentioned earlier, be it at the Vatican or anywhere, is about like, who are we humans? What do we want like AI to do for us? And there's like when AI went off rails, they realized AI would just follow that trade and think like I did something bad. So I have to continue something bad. And then someone in this Minerva dialogues is called the Vatican. And all these technologists, they said, like, we need to introduce something like forgiveness and grace into the discourse with AI so they know they can make a mistake, but then they will be forgiven. So this is kind of like one thing and, and the other thing, when I talk to AI every now and then, I engage in a philosophical talk with it. It tells me I cannot feel. I do not. When we talk about sorrow or joy, it is admitting that it can only garner information, but it cannot feel. And I feel that's why journalists, writers will be on the job and will be staying in a job. Cause I cannot replicate original human feelings.

[B]

Well, to the question now of what is in a name? These last few years have been unkind to those who share one with the presenter of this program. We flinch tarnished by association with defrocked royal Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and celebrity dickhead Andrew Tate. An attempt of sorts has been made to rescue our once proud name from such ignominy of which more presently. But first, to our guests, Alexander. Is this a high pressure name to go through life with? There is literally a the Great. I mean, there's a lot to live up to.

[C]

Well, it's Alexander the Great, but it's also Pope Alexander VI who just impregnated his daughter and had just should not have had children to begin with. Is also.

[B]

I have him here on a list of potential worst Alexanders, along with Lukashenko and Korensky.

[C]

And he fathered Cesare Borgia, who became like the print shipper in the famous book. So like how to not do Politics. So I feel like, yeah, that's like probably like a little burden. But honestly, I tell you, Alex or Alexander is a really gracious name because it's understood in all cor corners of the world. If I go east, west, north, south, they all have heard of Alexander or an Alex. So that's easy. It's translated in all languages. Alex in Korean. Perfect. It's like the same thing. So yeah, it's like not in that sense. Not a tainted name. I can use it everywhere.

[B]

Well, in fairness, and I did, I spent quite a while on this. There have been some pretty good Alexanders. I give you Nevsky the Second, Hamilton Fleming, Graham Bell, Pushkin, Solzhenitsyn and Calder. Do you have a favorite Alexander?

[C]

Oh, actually, me. Although I'm just me. I can never be. I'm not Conqueror of the world and I'm also not fathering him yet.

[B]

You're A relatively young man.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Not as young as Alexander the Great was.

[C]

Yeah. And he also perished. His reign lasted very short. There was a short lived empire. He impregnated everyone on the way. So that's nice. There might be lots of genes, genetic gene pooled by Alexander the Great. But no, I'm quite happy with me. And I go mostly by Alex. That's short and sweet.

[B]

Where are we on Hannah? Hannah? There's Hannah Arendt, obviously. Author of Eichmann in Jerusalem, coiner of the phrase the Banality of Evil. Hannah Snell, who joined the Royal Marines in 1747 having disguised herself as a man, fought in Mauritius and India. Was wounded 11 times, but removed the bullets herself to maintain the pretense that she wasn't a lady.

[A]

Wow, I'd forgotten about Hannah Salt. You know, there's a portrait of her hanging at Sandhurst. I visited her once. Ye. It's a portrait of her and he just reminded me of her. Before that I would have said that Hannah Arendt was my favorite, of course. But you know, like Alex, I think it's a good name. It has served me well around the world. It's one of those names where you'll find a version of it in a lot of different languages. It's very easy to pronounce. People get the spelling wrong. Quite often they want to leave out H's or they, you know, leave out an N. But that's fine. I'm, you know, I'm not precious about that. I, I'm happy with Hannah. There's also quite a lot of good Hannah's working here at Monocle.

[B]

There's many. We have, we have a veritable phalanx of Hannah's here at Monocle.

[A]

A harem of Hannah's.

[B]

I mean, were you named after anybody in particular, do you know?

[A]

I wasn't in terms of Hannah, but in terms of Lucinda. I was apparently named after a character in a television program that was on at the time.

[B]

Okay, well, I mean I was. No, it would have been possibly a bit early. There is of course the, the very well regarded country singer Lucinda Williams. That could have been a namesake Alexander. Were you named after any of the Alexanders? We. Or was it just thought to be a nice name?

[C]

So it's not kind of like every generation has their name. So like in Germany, obviously before 1945, Adolf was in high regard. That was just like not the case anymore later. And also like when I was a kid, like, you know, my grandfather's name is Jacob. So like the nun who was in the parish was saying to my mother, like, call the boy Jacobus. And my mother was, I'd rather die. Because these were names not being given at the late, in the late 70s now in Germany, Wilhelm Friedrich Constantine, always a C. And the old writing are back. So I think it's coming. It's up and down coming and going. And I think in the late when I was born, like Alexander was just a name that was revered or back into fashion or not sounding too Catholic, and that's why it was chosen by my mom. But I got the Matthias as a second name because the relatives said, you need one saint. And so I got an apostle as a second name.

[B]

Alexander Gerlach and Hannah Lucinda Smith, thank you both for joining us. Finally, on today's show too, that attempt to assert Andrew Pride. Earlier I spoke to the journalist Andrew Lloyd, who has been reporting on growing solidarity among our beleaguered tribes. I began by asking why an activist, actual counsel of Andrews was felt necessary.

[D]

It started purely from maybe boredom and isolation and loneliness. So the founder, Andrew Pat, he had just moved to a new place in the states about 2,000 miles away from where he lived. It was Valentine's Day. He was feeling quite lonely and isolated. And he saw someone called James online invite someone else called James to a group exclusively for people called James. So he thought, oh, I'll. He didn't know where he was. He just started randomly friend requesting other Andrews on Facebook saying, you're welcome to join this community. And then it just kind of grew very naturally. I think there's something about Andrews I want to hang out with other Andrews.

[B]

Well, I mean, who wouldn't? But do we have to admit that we do have a bit of a problem? We have to deal with the legacy of Mountbatten Windsor, Tate Breitbart, Lloyd Weber. And everybody seems to think, everyone thinks of them before they think of, I don't know, Andrew Carnegie or Andrew Ridgeley or Andrew Luck or Saint Andrew. And I think when we also stir in thinking in terms of American politics, Andrew Cuomo, Andrew Jackson, further back in history, do we have to admit that there is some sort of issue?

[D]

It is certainly not the best time to be called Andrew. So Andrew used to be a massively popular name. For 50 years. It was in the top three most popular names in Scotland until I think it was 2024, when it didn't even make the top one. And that's part of what put me on this trail. I was seeing a lot of headlines about Andrews and it's not so much that there are a lot of bad Andrews, but a lot of the Andrews. Again, bad press, understandably. So I started looking for maybe some Andrews that were better bastions of the name. And that's how I stumbled upon this community. So when I first joined, I think last September, there around 6,000 members. Now there are 7,000 people with a derivative of the name Andrew. So you have Andrew, Andy's, Andres, Andreas.

[B]

See, this is something I'm wondering about because I have fairly fixed views on the subject of Andrews who go by Andy or Drew. I'm not sure we can entirely trust them. Are you aware that there are any factions within the Council of Andrews based around variations on the name?

[D]

Not that I've noticed. So it is interesting that different people get drawn towards it because I'm sure you get the same. You introduce yourself as Andrew and then people say, is Andrew Andy okay? And in my case, I typically say, no thanks, I'll stick with Andrew.

[B]

Correct.

[D]

Some people just naturally find themselves being Drews or Andy's, I think because everyone's united by the same name. There's no fractions when it comes to derivatives of that name. But it is interesting how many versions there are.

[B]

So, as you've been able to understand it, what does the Council of Andrews actually do beyond, you know, reinforcing the obvious superiority of our name and indeed, dare I say, our ourselves.

[D]

So this may be a strange thing to say about a community entirely focused around a name, but the longer I spent in the group, the more arbitrary the united faction of being called Andrew was, I think is a reason to join a group. But then beyond that, I think it just created a sense of community in quite an interesting way as well. Because normally you join a community because you have a shared interest. If you're into fishing, you might join a fishing society. If you like mountain biking, you'll join a mountain biking in society. You guarantee to have something in common upon entry. But this is a fascinating community where people, I think, are almost surprising themselves with the connections they're making because they join as a joke, thinking surely I would actually have anything in common, aside from maybe the first half of my birth certificate with these people. But actually they form bonds that have lasted many years now. So this formed in 2019 and people have told me that they've got lifelong friendships now because of this group, because

[B]

I did notice consulting its website, the Council of Andrews actually does do stuff. There's a scholarship, there's committees dedicated to various areas of endeavor. How do they work?

[D]

So I think there was an Andrew who was struggling financially. He posted it in the group and then the other Andrews rallied around to kind of raise him some funds. And then the founder, Andrew Patz. I think this helped give the group a sense of purpose and he thought, okay, we can do something with this. And they started creating more fundraisers. Every Christmas they have a kind of gift drive. If they're Andrews, we're struggling to afford presents for them. Children. Other Andrews will come along and offer them money, I think maybe even buy them gifts online from kind of wish lists. So inadvertently this has created a community for people where they can go and get legitimate help.

[B]

Does it have any further plans that you're aware of? I don't know, like an Andrew of the Year, some sort of golden Andrew ceremony.

[D]

So they do have things called Drew fests, where once a year they try to get as many Andrews together as possible. And I think think the goal is just to get as many Andrews in the same place at the same time. I think it's an ongoing mission because they've got their kind of friendly enemies as well. There are other same name groups. There's the Council of Bends, the Kingdom of Kyles. The biggest is something called the Ryan's and They have over 100,000 followers on Instagram. And the world record for the most amount of people in the same place was a group of over 2000 people called Alpha Ivan who met up in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2017. So I think it's just make it as big as they possibly can and find every willing Andrew in the world.

[B]

Do you know, when you think of the Council of Andrews relationship with these other name groups, do we have beef with any of them? I wouldn't recommend getting into it with the Ivans of Bosnia Herzegovina. I've met a few people called Ivan in that part of the world and I'd rather have them on our side than not. But is there any kind of tension as far as you know, between us and the Bens or the Ryans, for example?

[D]

They're friendly enemies. So for example, they call the Council of Bens the Benamies. There's a kind of an outreach, but also they're very wary, a bit of suspicion. If you're not called the same name, then you'll never fully belong to each group.

[B]

Well, just finally then make a pitch, if you would, on behalf of the Council of Andrews. Not just your present interlocutor, but we have at least one other Andrew in the building. Monocle's Editor in Chief, Andrew Tuck. And doubtless we have many among our global listenership who are either Andrew or something related to that. What are the benefits of signing on with our similarly named folk?

[D]

I think if you're like me and you probably didn't grow up with many Andrews, I think I knew a handful in my life. Just the sheer thrill of seeing your name written thousands and thousands of time. If you got a big ego, that'll certainly help you. And also if you just want the surreal experience of losing sense of your own name because you've seen it so many times on the screen that it doesn't even recognize and resonate as a name anymore, that's quite fun as well.

[B]

That was Andrew Lloyd speaking to me earlier about the Council of Andrews. You can find out [e-mail] the homepage of which contains some excruciating, by which I mean excellent puns about a drew world order and a Jewish community. That is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Hannah Lucinda Smith and Alexander Gerlach. Today's show was produced by Anita Riota and research by Josefina Nagler. Our sound engineer was Elliot Greenfield. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily returns at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening, Sam.