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This.
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Episode of the Monocle Daily was first broadcast on 18 November 2025 on Monocle Radio. The UN greenlights the first part of Donald Trump's plan for Gaza. Why international students are saying no to America and should President Zelensky push his diplomatic offensive even harder? I'm Emma Nelson and the Monocle Daily starts now. FOREIGN. Hello there and a very warm welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Emma Nelson and today my guests Caroline Frost and David Brennan will talk about the day's big stories, including how long is too long for a daily commute since. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. We've barely been on air a minute, ladies and gentlemen, and we have a fight going on about who's wearing the best jumper today. It is cold here in London. My guests, Caroline Frost, the writer, journalist and broadcaster with an aptly named surname for the weather. Thank you to Caroline and David Brennan, reporter at ABC News, resplendent in patterned jumper. Mr. Brennan, Ms. Frost is in cashmere and a kind of like a delicious oatmeal colour as well. How. How was our choice of sweaters going today?
- [02:05]
A
Well, you're being very positive with your spin. A delicious oatmeal was not quite what I thought I would achieve when I put on this rather. Well, it's a kind of. It's pretty much a worker's uniform of a jumper really, isn't it? It can offend no one. I wouldn't. I was. I'm not expecting it to please anybody, including you.
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B
Some people in certain quarters will call it quiet luxe. How about you? How about you? How about you, David? I'm going for slightly more. Slightly more sort of like prayer mark.
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C
Yeah, well, I'm thinking more that kind of poisonous reptile look. So no one's gonna grab hold of me on the tube.
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B
Okay, I can do that. Yeah, that's absolutely fine. How are you both, apart from clearly winning in the best dress stakes for the Monocle Daily program? David, what have you been up to today?
- [02:46]
C
Today, not too much different. Just been at the office covering Lots of interesting news coming out of New York yesterday that I think we're gonna get to.
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B
Yeah, don't plane your job down. You are a reporter at ABC News, so it's quite a good office you work in. How about you, Caroline?
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A
I was actually, I was admiring David swatting capacity while we were waiting to come on because I have been doing something far less useful for this program, however, perhaps useful for the world, which is checking in on the new, soon to be released Disney nine part anthology of the Beatles.
- [03:17]
B
Goodness me. And what is going to be in this nine part anthology?
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A
It's uncannily similar to the anthology that was released 30 years ago, except that it's had the Disney budget, which means bells and whistles, beautiful colouring, grading. The music has been given even more of a crisp feeling, like you are in the Abbey Road studio. And there is a very special number nine episode fresh that purists will be jumping all over.
- [03:41]
B
This is right. I'm now digging into my Beatles head. This is from the White Album, right?
- [03:46]
A
No. So this is an anthology of their entire career. But the eight episodes that they released in the 90s were with George, Ringo and Paul and obviously lamenting the much missed John, but he was there with recorded voices. And now this very special new number nine episode is going back and the footage of that music that came out. And of course we're now missing George, but he's in the footage because it was just him, Ringo and Paul just sitting around like three normal middle aged men chewing on past glory. And my goodness, they're allowed.
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B
This is an astonishing story and actually just how much is documented. Let us move on to the subject at hand today. So we have to begin by asking how watertight is Donald Trump's plan for Gaza? We've seen the UN Security Council approving it, or at least the first part in full. The US President has described this vote as a historic and a good way of acknowledging and endorsing the so called Board of peace of which Mr. Trump will be chair. Hamas has rejected the scheme. Just explain to us, David, what did the UN say yes to? This is now a legal mandate, isn't it? But to do what?
- [04:59]
C
So this is the UN Security Council voting 13 to 0 in favour of the establishment of the International Security Force and the Board of Peace that you've mentioned already. Two nations did not vote. China and Russia both abstained. Unclear what they might be getting for that. We may find out in due course. But those are the two key pillars of this decision, the BOP and the ISF as people are referring to and the bo.
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B
Well, let's just jump straight in with the bop, the Board of Peace. Who's on it and what job will they do and how much power will they have?
- [05:35]
C
We don't know is the answer to all of those questions. The only thing that we do know right now is that Trump will be the chairman of this Board of Peace. Of course, the only name that he's given so far as another possible contributor is Tony Blair, former Prime minister, of course, who as we know has some pretty good peacemaking chops, some good war making chops as well, but we don't know exactly what role he might play or how many board members there there will be. Trump said in a truth social post last night that the coming weeks we'll see some very exciting announcements, including of some people who will make up this board.
- [06:11]
B
So this board will do what? Effectively govern.
- [06:14]
C
This will be the transitional government of sorts that will oversee the early redevelopment of the Gaza Strip. That's the plan. They will work with the international security force and the plan for the international security force, the makeup of which is also not yet clear. They will oversee the planned disarmament summon of Hamas and the demilitarization of Gaza.
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B
Yes, there is sort of a requirement, isn't there, that some countries will just have to sign up and send members of this new international force. Egypt and Israel both playing key parts in this force. And one wonders who is going to be giving the orders here, especially if Israel is playing such a big part in it.
- [06:56]
C
Yeah, exactly. And the Egypt and Israel will be consulting with every member of this force. That has already caused some problems because Netanyahu has already said that Turkey cannot be part of the force, which is a pretty big deal because they're a pretty big player in the region, obviously in terms of other people who have said that they will contribute to it. Again, I'm sorry to say it again, but it's quite unclear at this stage.
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B
It's going to be a really short discussion, isn't it? Because we don't know so much about what's.
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C
There's so much speculation we can make indeed.
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B
And so many international players. And at the end of the day, Hamas has said no to it already. So Caroline, how much, how long do we actually give this?
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A
Well, I mean it's got to be good news while this very tentative peace plan holds and that the gunfire, I mean, yes, it hasn't completely been eradicated, but it's been reduced on both sides. I think what we have in our Favor as a world is Donald Trump's extreme, sometimes laudable vanity. I mean, it's the clock being twice being correct twice a day in that he has got his eye on the legacy. He's talked about that Gaza redevelopment in language he and his big tech bros and his big property bros understand, which is opportunities for all, which he means him and his friends. But that's what he's keeping his eye on. I mean, what's interesting, of course, is that both sides seem to be equally critical of it. So you're told that Palestinian statehood is not happening and that Hamas are furious and that they don't think there are enough conditions to favor them. And meanwhile over on the completely the opposite side, we're told that the fact that they've said it will be laid open, that there could be a credible pathway to development and if enough peace holds and if there is enough development that they, the conditions may be met for Palestinian self determination and statehood, which means, which will be their furious as well. So it's almost like it's what the BBC always says. If we're offending everybody, perhaps we're doing something right.
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B
Indeed. And at the moment the first phase being put into place, the ceasefire is by all accounts holding. The second phase phase is what Caroline described is much more complicated because it goes very quickly to the heart of the Middle east conflict, which is this inability yet compulsion for these two opposing sides to somehow share a space and how that will be carved up. And one wonders whether Donald Trump of all people is the one who will make this happen.
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C
I think Donald Trump has achieved some surprising success by just refusing to think about issues like that and just rolling straight through them. And as I say, to his credit, he has achieved some things with that. This is going to be a real test of it. As you say, the first part, nothing about this has been easy. The first phase is holding. For now, though, it's important to note that more than 200 Palestinians have been killed since the ceasefire began on October 11. Israel has destroyed more than 1500 buildings. There are daily shootings around the yellow line where Israeli forces have withdrawn to so that the suffering and the killing has not ended. At the heart of all of this is two, two positions which it's very hard to bring together. Hamas says we will not disarm until we have a clear idea of how we get to a Palestinian state at the very earliest. And then we have Netanyahu and many other officials in Israel saying this is a red line, this is never going to happen in between them. As you've said, we have this document which kind of pays some credence to both sides.
- [10:23]
B
But yeah, and as a result, Caroline, the stakes for the United nations couldn't be higher, could they? Because this thing has to work. Everyone's piled in. Russia and China have abstained, saying that there's little clarity about the key mechanisms and you know, that didn't ensure the participation of the United Nations. I mean, comments that arguably are sort of pretty reasonable doubts to cast over this. But the fact that, you know, 13 votes all unanimously saying yes to this, if this goes wrong, then what happens?
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A
Well, it does mean that the UN's credibility is very much on the back foot. I mean, we saw this. I mean this country had a lot of vested interest in that back in The Iraq War Days, 2003, when, you know, we've seen that particular leaders can decide that the UN vote isn't worth listening to. This is a concrete legal mandate and because it's favoring what everybody agrees with, it seems that it will be taken seriously. However, if it goes wrong, you could feasibly ask the question, why do any of us bother sitting down in New York to have these discussions?
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B
You're listening to the Monocle Daily with me, Emma Nelson. Joining me around the studio table today, Caroline Frost, writer of journalist and broadcaster David Brennan, reporter at ABC News. Now, traditionally, the global competition to get into American universities is some of the toughest on earth. Until this year, the number of international applicants has plummeted down by a whopping 17%. A combination of Don Trump's war on the high end universities and the clampdown on immigration have been blamed. Caroline, this is the Institute of International Education who are marking this big drop. Are we incredibly surprised by this?
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A
Not at all. I mean it does make for sobering reading that the the fall is so vertiginous and that they're saying that the decrease isn't just a sort of gradual managed decline because of world economics and cultural events. It's pretty substantial and dramatic. As you said, you've mention the clampdown on immigration is one thing. The lack of visa support, the fact that they are trying to create was it. Theresa May called it sort of a discouraging lack of hospitality is a way of looking at it. But it's more than just anything legal, isn't it? It's about the culture. It's about at the moment lots of people, I have friends in America saying it isn't a country they want to stay in and they started there. So you can imagine that there's even less impetus or incentive for anybody who has got a choice, particularly the higher up their grades go and the more they're getting. There are lots of other countries in the world very happy to step up and create an alternative setting for their academic prowess.
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B
Indeed, I remember having similar conversations post Brexit when lots of international, lots of Europeans were sending their children to British universities and almost immediately just went, no, thank you. We will go to Amsterdam, we'll go to Milan, we will go anywhere. But, and it's not hard because if you do have an international student on your hands, you can put them absolutely everywhere. So the, so one wonders, David, the idea of the top universities in the United States, I mean, how dependent are they on international talent to maintain their status?
- [13:34]
C
Well, I think it's interesting that this issue kind of cuts to the heart of one of the fissures in the MAGA movement at the moment. I think this news will be extremely welcomed by Trump's base, the nativists, the far right people who support him. They'll see it's more space for American students. If you're born here, you deserve that more. Though of course, certain types of students will be more, more welcome than others. I think when you look at the, you mentioned earlier, Trump's tech bro friends and his property bro friends, the big business interests in the US presumably will be quite concerned about this. There's a reason that people like Elon Musk have been pushing for liberalization on the visa policy, because they say that foreign workers are needed to plug the holes that Americans can't or won't do. If you have this kind of thing going on, presumably there will be fewer young, bright, and let's face it, wealthy people coming to the US to spend their money, to bring their expertise and to stay to develop their products and their technology.
- [14:30]
B
The likes of Harvard, who've gone head to head with Donald Trump in the past over various policies, they may indeed be losing out to those enormous firms which could probably recruit directly from overseas.
- [14:43]
A
Yes, it won't be a problem for the people skimming off the cream, as it never is with anything when it comes to anything at all. I do find it interesting though that on the one hand, Donald Trump, as you say, he's found a way of, of sort of double think and not thinking through these things in a circumspect kind of way. He's talking about creating that America will be second to none when it comes to innovation in such areas as AI. And already we've seen that they are well ahead of the field over in Silicon Valley. However, it will depend on having the absolute creme of the creme in terms of academic and technical prowess. You're right. They may be able to recruit. They can afford to send scouts out across all of those international borders. But it does, doesn't quite sit with his general philosophy. But I guess that's never stopped him in the past. I mean, there's already talk that he's lowered tariffs on the quiet because that didn't quite fit with the banners that were over on the boarding. So perhaps he will do the same thing when it comes to the elite students.
- [15:43]
B
Exactly. One wonders whether in the same way that we've, we've had roller coaster numbers with, with tariffs, depending on which country you are coming from and, you know, Trump's personal relationship with, with, with the leader who happens to be in power at the time, one wonders whether Donald Trump might suddenly start to capitalize this and suddenly think, okay, I'm going to steal some really good students from India. I'm going to, you know, that universities will be compelled to hunt in very specific ways.
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C
That personal touch is, I think, very important in almost everything that Trump does. And one of the concerns that I've heard about this fall in international student numbers in national security and intelligence circles in the US Is that world leaders and world decision makers send their children to school in the US Having them there is a huge influence. It perhaps even provides some leverage. Trump is very keen on making these personal connections with foreign leaders. Would it be that surprising if someone like Xi Jinping asked him to ease up and to make some kind of special deal for Chinese students? And it was to happen, I don't think it would be that surprising.
- [16:46]
B
The international world, other universities, other countries must be not necessarily enjoying it. But if you've got a bright kid who's going to go to Harvard or Yale, and then suddenly they find themselves knocking on other prestigious universities doors, they must be enjoying this.
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A
I would think that they won't be unhappy about it. I mean, not only do you get the great big brain, but you get the great big chequebook as well. Because international students increasingly are responsible for keeping the lights on at many of even the most prestigious universities around the world. So none of this will have gone unnoticed. The fact that one country appears to be closing its doors, well, therein lies opportunity.
- [17:24]
B
Now, let's talk about. We've mentioned the personal touch a minute ago, David. Well, let's talk about Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He's on his Travels again. Absolute. The consummate professional when it comes to the personal Touc. He's on a renewed and vigorous drive to win fresh support from Ukraine's allies. This week he's already been promised up to 100 French Rafale fighter jets. Not bad work for Monday. Tomorrow he's in Turkey with a fresh plan to revive peace negotiations in Russia. Today he was in Spain. What did he get in Spain? Everybody. Apart from a trip to go and actually go in a very symbolic and touching moment to go and have a look at Picasso's gun ak.
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C
Yes, yes. Very, very, very suitable. Sadly, in Spain he was discussing another defence and security military industrial agreement. These seem to be top of the agenda now when Zelenskyy is visiting European capitals. Ukraine, we all know, needs Western support, both military, financial and of course, diplomatic as well. They are facing a very, very difficult situation this winter on the frontline, on the home front, and increasingly over the last couple of weeks on the political front with a corruption scandal that's shaking the foundations really of the government in Kyiv. Zelenskyy's personal touch, as you put it, has been a key element of Ukraine's diplomatic strategy since the full scale invasion began in 2022. He needs to be doing this more than ever. It's been very successful. It's very hard to ignore Zelenskyy or put him back of mind when he's there in your capital. He has been a masterclass of political messaging since the war started. We all remember those videos of him on the streets of Kyiv in the early days of the invasion saying, we're all still here. I'm not going anywhere. He has shown that he can do it. Then can he keep doing it while Ukraine is facing perhaps the hardest winter of the war? We'll see.
- [19:14]
B
Indeed. But there is that feeling, isn't there? The war is now going into its fourth winter, isn't it? Which is. Is unthinkable, if we cast our minds back to 2022, that we would still be here at the end of 25. And Zelenskyy's progress has been limited. I mean, compared with the amount of shoe leather he's. He's worn out, hasn't it?
- [19:35]
A
He's quite the showman. Yes. I mean, I would consider the fact that he is still alive, still traveling, still there to tell the tale should be seen as an enormous win when you consider how the odds were stacked against him in those first months. And then gradually you realize that they had all, well, they just had the chutzpah to take on their Big Bear neighbors. However, it is somewhat complicated. Sometimes when you think of Zelenskyy, and he's such a showman and he's so totemic, so charismatic. He's bringing all of his entertainment hinterland to bear in these political transactions and these world stage settings. However, he's not as beloved in his backyard. I mean, he's always had a bit of a clash with the mayor of Kyiv, who's equally high profile, you know, Klitschko. And now we' hearing that he's fighting off corruption charges. So do I wonder if it's one of those situations akin to perhaps everybody loving Boris, Boris Johnson on the international stage. Oh, he's the only politician that anybody can ever name. And meanwhile, over in the uk, the uk we're saying not so fast. Now, of course, he is their leader. We know that war makes. Makes totems of leaders like him. It will just be interesting to see how, how much, how much further he can continue to ride these two horses.
- [20:54]
B
Just touching on that corruption issue, Dave did. The fact remains, though, that Zelenskyy was elected on a ticket to fight corruption, and clearly it has not worked. But the world is in a very, very different place. And a lot of the money that they are dealing with that has gone missing into the energy system in Ukraine has been given as a goodwill pledge from foreign countries. So this obviously makes Ukraine far more vulnerable to basically people saying no. That said, you have Zelenskyy seizing the narrative, taking control of the situation and openly owning the problem, which, let's look at other countries, you know, in terms of corruption and backhanders and giving jobs to your friends. Washington, that idea that actually to have a little bit of nobility in struggle in a problem is probably not a bad thing at all.
- [21:49]
C
No, absolutely. And the fact that Ukraine is having these very public clashes and concerns over corruption is a good thing. It shows that things are changing, even if it brings a lot of pain with it. We'll see. The problem is that this is happening in the midst of an existential war. If Putin wasn't trying to kick the door down in the east while this was all going on, then maybe they would have more latitude to reform and to act as they need to. But Ukraine's a democracy. You won't see this kind of thing happening in Russia because it can't happen in Russia and it can happen in Ukraine. And I think we need to bear that in mind when we see these troubling reports from Ukraine that it would almost be more worrying if we weren't hearing about it.
- [22:29]
B
And indeed, when you're looking from the point of view of, from within Europe to have the European leaders that Zelenskyy has been talking to have endorsed him.
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A
Yes, it's very personal, isn't it?
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B
It's very personal. And also there is a sense of trust in him because, you know, if Emmanuel Macron is going to put his faith in Zelensky and the future of Ukraine to the tune of 100 fighter jets, there's clearly a commitment from Europe here that it will do all it can to be by Ukraine's side when there is perhaps less of a reliance on what's happening in America.
- [23:06]
A
I think he's earned that trust. I mean, right from those early days that you've referred to David, when he said, I don't want, I want weapons and not a ride, wasn't it? I mean, those were the words of a brave man with his back against the wall. He hasn't desert his post. He had to be persuaded to put on a suit when so many other world leaders would have just loved the cosplay of turning up in the White House. He was not to be distracted. He even took the big handshakes and apologies that J.D. vance demanded. He's keeping his eye on the prize and I hope for Ukraine's sake as well as for his own, that he gets to stay in post.
- [23:41]
B
I'm wondering what's happening among the European leaders who are hosting Zelensky at the moment that when Macron comes out and goes, OK, 100 fighter jets, plus were they Scrabb round in Madrid going, oh my God, we can't do that, we can't match that. We're going to give you some anti weapons stuff. And then Turkey is thinking, okay, what can we offer him? Clearly this is all very well planned and very well choreographed. But does such a big gesture from France initiate a sort of quiet and slightly panicked moment of one upmanship by the next host?
- [24:11]
C
Potentially, it definitely poses a lot of questions. And we've seen reports today suggesting that France doesn't have those fighters. France doesn't have the money to back those fighters. Ukraine doesn't have the money to back those fighters either. So a very, very important part of this diplomatic tour that Zelenskyy is doing and has been doing constantly is looking for funding for Ukraine. He said last week that there is 140 billion euros or so of frozen Russian assets that he wants to get his hands on. There are lots of challenges about that. Countries have been trying to see what they can do about this for a very long time. But that kind of money would potentially help fund, you know, 100 French fighter jets, 150 Swedish fighter jets, which was a few weeks ago or a couple of months ago, which was agree need. These are expensive pieces of kit, but Ukraine will need them, maybe not even to survive this war, because the delivery of 100 jets is not a fast thing. But there is no indication from the Russians that they intend this to be the last act of aggression against Ukraine. So if Ukraine wants to be the hedgehog, it needs some money to pay for the spikes. That's a bit. I got halfway through that.
- [25:18]
B
We're with you all the way. Don't worry, we'll carry that. Don't worry. Let's move to something else. There's an article. On a completely different note, you've been spared. David. We're going to talk about how long it took us all to get into work today. How did it take you? How long? What was the journey like, Caroline?
- [25:37]
A
Oh, very straightforward. I'm on a tube. I wander down sometimes. If I'm very naughty, I get the bus for three whole stops. Terrible. Don't judge me. And then I'm on the tube for. Well, if I stay on one particular line, it's about 10 stops and if I jump to the other, quicker one, two stops in, it's one stop and bust. It's a very civilized 25 minutes.
- [25:59]
B
Can you remember what Caroline's just said? Because I'm just like, we've got two bus stops. No, one bus, two tubes. But not long.
- [26:06]
A
Really not long.
- [26:07]
B
Nice and easy. How about you?
- [26:08]
C
So in the same way that I'm throwing down for the jumper game, I'm going to throw down for this one. I split my time between London and Bristol, so my commute today was just under three hours.
- [26:17]
B
Okay. You take longer to get to work than people in South Korea.
- [26:20]
C
Terrible is.
- [26:21]
B
And the reason why I say that is because South Korea has just been named as whether this a good or a bad price, the country which has the longest commute, 1 hour 48 minutes. Now we have to decide that. I mean, having spoken to colleagues who have done the commute in Seoul and in its environs that the. The urban infrast, the urban transport network, is clean, quick, efficient, cheap, fantastic, nonetheless. 101 hour 48. And apparently at the end, in the middle of town, it gets a bit squashed. But would you have 1 hour 40? You have to choose where you're going to do your 1 hour 48 commute okay. You've opted for 3 hours from Bristol.
- [27:01]
C
It was very nice.
- [27:01]
B
Okay. And that's that. And you're fine with that?
- [27:04]
C
I'm fine with it from time to time. I wouldn't want to be doing it every day.
- [27:07]
B
Okay. Might be a little tiresome. How about you? 1 hour 48. Where are we living?
- [27:11]
A
Yes. Somewhere, I would say in the shires, in the lovely leafy west of London shires or perhaps up in northeast of London somewhere where I got to go through some greenery. I mean that's one of the recommendations of this same report is that the people who, if you have to travel or specifically walking, you walk where there is green and trees and your mental health and emotional stability, I was very interested to read specifically, will be enhanced. And they have said that anybody who commutes more than six hours a week will suffer in both those scales, which is a bit alarming because lots of people do.
- [27:43]
B
Which means that we all have to move to Morocco because they have the shortest commute at 48 minutes. One wonders what the comparable distance is and indeed what it must be like on a Moroccan bus for 48 minutes. Big fan of Morocco, by the way.
- [27:54]
C
Yeah, I've spent some time in Morocco. Absolutely loved it. I think I would be taking the Korean train for an hour and 48 all day over 48 minutes on the Moroccan road.
- [28:02]
B
What can be done for someone's mental health, positively for spending a long time on a train? I mean, 1 hour 48 sounds like a, sounds like a really early alarm clock. But the amount of stuff that you can get get done. I remember when they, they're trying to build a high speed rail link between London and the north of England at the moment. They said we will shave 20 minutes off your journey or 10 minutes, however long it is. And everyone just went, no. Boo. We could actually get, get our, get our day sorted during that time.
- [28:28]
A
I think it's very essential traveling for, for your mental health. There's nothing better than a train ride for getting your act together, going through your admin, doing all the bits and bobs. It's, I mean it's the second best thing to being on a plane where you really can't be hassled. Although of course these days, even up contactable.
- [28:47]
B
Thank you, Starlink.
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A
Yes, it's all about the WI fi, isn't it? As, as all things are these days. If WI fi is efficient and crisp and hopefully free, there's nothing to complain about. And also a seat.
- [29:00]
B
How efficient and crisp is the WI fi on the three hour journey from Bristol.
- [29:04]
C
I don't even try and use it anymore. I just hotspot from my phone.
- [29:07]
B
Excellent. That's all we needed to know. Thank you both. Finally on today's program, Alexandre Fato, as known as vils, is the first Portuguese artist selected for the 5th edition of Forever is Now the open exhibition set against the Pyramids of Giza, a UNESCO World Heritage site. While his new installation, Doors of Cairo, brings together 65 salvaged doors from across the city, each carved and reimagined on the sands of Giza as a tribute to collective memory and endurance. Well, it runs until early December and The exhibition invites 10 contemporary artists from around the world to present site specific installations that enter into dialogue with Egypt's vast historical and cultural legacy. On Monocles, Joanna Moser spoke to Wils and began by asking what kind of dialogue he hoped to inspire with Doors of Cairo.
- [29:53]
D
We have doors from Cairo that are stories from Cairo, but I also wanted to bring doors from different places in the world and carve those histories through the whole installation that I'm doing. And in that what I wanted to do is kind of this connection that it's invisible most of the times between civilizations and history that brings us to what we are and where we are today. Cities, in a way, are kind of a construct that we all build and we are all participants to it and we all shape it. And in a way, the pyramids are kind of this monument that's brought a lot of people to build it. And it's kind of a distance memory of a civilization that existed. And I wanted to create something that kind of creates a dialogue between monuments and also what we build today. In a way, doors also have a huge meaning in the sense that they are very symbolic and very metaphorically. They kind of bring us together, but they also differentiate the space, the private space, to the collective space or private space. But also we open a door to let someone in. So in a way, I wanted to create kind of a homage to and a reflection on how we, you know, connect and build things together, even if we are not conscious about it.
- [31:04]
A
A project like this must take a lot of people to bring to life. Can you tell me about the team behind it and what it takes to organize something on the scale? Scale?
- [31:12]
D
Well, we started to work a year ago, my studio, we are 25 people, but we also work with external people that have been helping us. We have a local team in Cairo, Finn, the team that organizes the Forever is now Nadine and all their team. I think there Are a lot of people? I don't know exactly, but it's something that involves quite a lot of logistics. And a lot of times it's. People perceive an artist's installation as a. A solo work, and in a way, it is conceptually, but then actually doing it, the legal part, the safety that we need to get to work in the desert, you need to have a lot of cautious measures and a lot of limitations you need to work around. But I would say in total, I think we are probably 100, 150 people working on to set up these projects.
- [31:57]
A
And how was working in the desert?
- [31:59]
D
Yeah, it's a very nosfit and extreme place, but at the same time, it's a place that you have this serenity and a piece that allows you to have a different relationship with artworks. Because when you work on a city, you kind of work with a surprise factor where you do an intervention and then people don't expect and you create a dialogue. It's often a connection that happens for a few minutes and you need to have something to say quite quickly, and then people engage with it. On a desert, on a set of installations that a lot of artists going to work on, you have more time for contemplation, but also kind of a meditation, because that's what makes you kind of in a zone that allows you to introspect and connect with an artwork in a very different way. So that's why I wanted to create different stories, different depths, different doors, different images and stories of people for you to be engaged in a meditation process to connect through those doors.
- [32:54]
A
How do you expect people then to react when they see your installation?
- [32:59]
D
Once you do an artwork, then you cannot control that part. And I think that's the beauty of creating an artwork in a setting that you are not expected to be. And I'm very often to do it. When you work on a city, sometimes you're not expected to be there. So I think each person will take their own trip with the artwork and you cannot control. But yeah, what I wanted to create was this interconnection as a civilization. And now we are interconnected, and now we can can open a door without being concerned with all the polarization we have right now in the world.
- [33:29]
B
And that was Vilce talking to Monocle's Joanna Moser there. And that's all the time we have for today's edition of the Monocle Daily. A big thanks to my panelists Caroline Frost and David Brennan, and to the producer Tom Webb and researcher by Joanna Moser. And our sound engineer, Christy o'. Grady. I'm Emma Nelson here in London. The Monocle Daily's back at the same time tomorrow. But for now, from me, goodbye. Thank you very much for listening, Sam.