US Congress roiled by Venezuelan strikes and the latest from the Xi-Macron meeting

Summary

The Monocle Daily – Dec 4, 2025

Main Theme:
A globe-spanning discussion on today's critical headlines: U.S. military actions and congressional strife over Venezuela, diplomatic chess between Macron and Xi in China, the prospects for travel to Ukraine, and lighter analysis of cultural trends including Design Miami and changing alcohol laws in Thailand.

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1. U.S. Congress, Venezuela, and Gunboat Diplomacy

Timestamps: [03:55]–[12:06]

Key Discussion Points:

• The U.S. hasn't invaded Venezuela, but an American fleet, including the Gerald R. Ford carrier, circles the Caribbean.
• The political storm in Washington: Recent U.S. naval strikes sank boats off Venezuela, allegedly targeting narcotics shipments. It emerged a second strike was ordered to kill survivors (potential war crimes).
• Adm. Frank "Mitch" Bradley is fingered as the officer who ordered the second strike. Speculation grows whether he's being made a scapegoat.
• Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth is under scrutiny, viewed as a likely "fall guy" in the Trump administration.

Insights:

• Trump administration's willingness to bypass congressional approval for military actions (executive orders).
• Bipartisan concern in Congress: even some Republicans resisting unilateral military escalation.
• Historical comparison: America’s long tradition of intervention in Latin America, often under questionable pretexts.
• Speculation that Trump's moves are meant to distract from domestic unpopularity.

Notable Quotes:

• "Trump has shown very clearly...he does everything according to his agenda and he's prepared to issue executive orders. He's the commander in chief, and he. He will do what he wants." – Nick Gowing [07:24]
• "The reality of the situation is that actually Trump's getting away with an awful lot of things that in any previous presidency would have caused all sorts of uproar..." – Alex von Tunzelman [08:21]
• "It does look...like some fairly plain old fashioned gunboat diplomacy." – Andrew Muller [11:03]
• Historical book recommendation: "Red Heat" by Alex von Tunzelman ("about the Cold War of the Caribbean") [12:06]

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2. Macron’s Visit to China and Europe’s Economic Dance with Xi

Timestamps: [12:06]–[18:16]

Key Discussion Points:

• Emmanuel Macron’s state visit to China: deals signed covering education, agriculture, energy, environment.
• Xi Jinping’s veiled demand for a "fair conducive environment" for Chinese business in France (compared to "burly visitor" making an implied threat).
• Europeans’ wariness about deepening economic ties with China in light of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
• China’s ambiguous pronouncements about Ukraine: Xi promises to play a "constructive role" in achieving a sustainable peace, but with no concrete action.

Insights:

• Macron is joined by major French business leaders; underlying the EU’s economic dependency on China.
• China’s diplomatic style: offering soothing, non-committal statements, expertly playing global relationships.
• France/EU’s position: more economically interdependent with China than with Russia, creating a dilemma.

Notable Quotes:

• "Wow, that's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing, isn't it?" – Alex von Tunzelman, on Xi’s Ukraine statement [14:25]
• "This is about bilateral relations...President Xi is very adept at playing every country he wants according to the Chinese agenda." – Nick Gowing [13:02]
• "She (China) is playing a game...saying soothing things to enough of them, while uncommittal things also to all of them." – Alex von Tunzelman [14:25]

Panda Diplomacy

Timestamps: [16:37]–[18:16]

• Macron and Xi’s joint visit to see pandas in Chengdu; symbolic of soft power and photo opportunities.
• Light-hearted exchanges on the risks of approaching pandas.

Quotes:

• "Panda diplomacy is enormous fun. But...it probably gives some wonderful photo opportunities...pandas are soft. It works well in that respect." – Alex von Tunzelman [17:24]
• "When you look at them, they're soft. When you get close to them, really..." – Nick Gowing [17:45]

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3. The Prospects of Tourism in Ukraine Post-War

Timestamps: [18:16]–[24:14]

Key Discussion Points:

• Low-cost carriers (Wizz Air, EasyJet, Ryanair) are "plotting" a return to Ukraine "as soon as Ukrainian airspace is safe."
• Skepticism abounds: The war is ongoing; infrastructure damage is substantial; security and insurance for flights are major obstacles.
• The sensitive concept of "catastrophe tourism": Will tourists visit recent warzones as they do Somme or Auschwitz? Where is the line between education, remembrance, and bad taste?

Insights:

• Airlines are always planning for future destinations, but real operations hinge on full security and international green lights.
• Ukraine’s pre-war tourism volume was significant: 15 million passengers in 2019.
• Post-conflict travel is historically fraught, especially with landmines and other hazards.

Notable Quotes:

• "We're nowhere close to this. It's pie in the sky and I'm not being facetious here." – Nick Gowing on airlines returning to Ukraine [19:08]
• "Ukraine did have...15 million passengers flew into Ukraine. That's quite a substantial tourist industry." – Alex von Tunzelman [20:21]
• "This is a dangerous country with enormous number of mines...it's almost obscene to talk about catastrophe tourism." – Nick Gowing [21:03]
• "This is a hugely fraught field...People will be interested in world events. Of course they are, but the taste level, should we say, may vary." – Alex von Tunzelman, on 'catastrophe tourism' [22:46]

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4. Thailand’s Easing of Daytime Drinking Restrictions

Timestamps: [24:14]–[29:25]

Key Discussion Points:

• Thailand lifts ban on afternoon alcohol sales (2pm–5pm) for six months to attract more tourists.
• The law (since 1972) was intended to keep government workers sober; in reality, gray areas meant hotels and airports have always served drinks.
• Comparison to past alcohol restrictions in UK, Australia, Norway, and note that people always find workarounds.

Insights:

• Symbolic regulatory changes often amount to press-release fodder more than real impact.
• Ban’s original rationale is outdated; modern "247" tourism and work norms make it irrelevant.

Notable Quotes:

• "I think most tourists would have been unaware that that was even a factor, that one wasn't allowed it, since the hotel is quite happy to serve you..." – Alex von Tunzelman [25:07]
• "People do find a way. I think a lot of people see this sort of thing as a creative challenge." – Alex von Tunzelman [26:57]
• "You can still enjoy a holiday without having to imbibe." – Nick Gowing [26:12]

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5. Design Miami: Collectible Design and Cultural Trends

Timestamps: [29:25]–[35:49]

Key Discussion Points:

• Monocle’s design correspondents report from Design Miami—the premier fair for collectible design, coinciding with Art Basel.
• What is "collectible design"? Everything from antiques to bold, contemporary one-offs, encompassing a spectrum of aesthetics and interests.
• The fun, eccentric mix of attendees: gallerists, designers, fashionistas—"people come to see these works of art dressed like works of art."
• Highlights: French designer Matthieu de Renal’s playful sofa; Fendi collaboration with Connie Valleze; George Nakashima’s iconic benches.
• The growth of collectible design fairs worldwide (Milan, Paris, soon Dubai).

Insights:

• Emphasis on the joy and meaning of well-designed spaces—an antidote to world turmoil.
• Design, like art, is a growing global movement for self-expression and cultural value.

Notable Quotes:

• "It can be everything from things that are antique...things that are bold and colorful, also like Mr. Muller, through to...one off sort of pieces." – Grace Charlton [30:22]
• "Why spend time in a space that doesn't lift your spirit? That's the sort of discussion that takes place this week." – Grace Charlton [34:13]
• "So much collectible design is on the rise...it's like the biggest conversation topic at the moment." – Nick Monice [34:46]

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Memorable Moments & Tone

• Panelists engage in playful banter ("Have you been maimed by a panda?" [17:51]), yet remain incisive and skeptical on politics.
• Historical context ties past and present: from Lyndon Johnson's Caribbean interventions to questions about contemporary gunboat diplomacy.
• The conversational, slightly sardonic style is reflective of Monocle’s signature tone: global but wry, informed and unpretentious.

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamps | Speakers | Themes/Key Points | |------------------------------------------|-----------------|-------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | U.S.–Venezuela Crisis | [03:55]–[12:06] | Muller, Gowing, von Tunzelman | US military actions, Trump’s approach, Hegseth’s role, historical parallels | | Macron–Xi Summit | [12:06]–[18:16] | Muller, Gowing, von Tunzelman | EU–China economic ties, political messaging, panda diplomacy | | Return of Ukrainian Tourism | [18:16]–[24:14] | Muller, Gowing, von Tunzelman | Flight resumption prospects, 'catastrophe tourism', landmine hazards | | Thailand Alcohol Law Changes | [24:14]–[29:25] | Muller, Gowing, von Tunzelman | Loosening of alcohol sales ban, social context, historical regulatory patterns | | Design Miami | [29:25]–[35:49] | Grace Charlton, Nick Monice | Fair highlights, “collectible design,” global trends, cultural value debate |

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This summary distills the episode’s sharp reporting, lively debate, and engaging cultural coverage, preserving Monocle’s insightful and witty tone. Timestamps and speaker attributions help readers quickly find highlights and grasp the episode’s breadth, from U.S. power politics to the aesthetics of modern life.

Transcript

[Andrew Muller]

Every day, the world presents you with hundreds of headlines. What do you believe? Who do you trust? The Financial Times cuts through complexity with clarity, accuracy and global perspective. Its journalism is guided by independence, not agendas. That's why leaders in business, policy and culture turn to one trusted source for facts, for insight, for what matters next. Source FT Read more and [e-mail].

[Alex von Tunzelman]

You'Re listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 4 December 2025 on Monocle Radio.

[Andrew Muller]

The latest odds on the United States invading Venezuela. French President Emmanuel Macron goes to China and the possible return of the city break to Kyiv, Lviv or Odessa. I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts.

Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily, coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Alex von Tunzelman and Nick Gowing will discuss the day's big stories and we'll hear from Monocle's team at Design Miami. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily.

This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I am joined today by Alex von Tonzelman, historian, author and screenwriter, and by Nick Gowing, analyst and founder of risk management consultancy Thinking the Unthinkable. Hello to you both.

[Nick Gowing]

Hello.

[Andrew Muller]

Hello, Alex. First of all, you join us back from your annual writer's retreat at Morocco, which you will now tell us all about while seamlessly plugging availability biannual.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Yes, indeed. And it's more of a boot camp or book camp, the FT called it, rather than really a retreat treat. So, yes, we do two weeks in November, two weeks in March, usually with very, very big guest star authors. This time we had the wonderful Colin McCann and the amazing Nadifa Mohammed. And next year we're lining up Samantha Harvey, who won the Booker last year, Max Porter, Maggie o' Farrell and Michelle Hussain, all coming to us next year, which is very, very exciting. So it's at a wonderful, wonderful resort hotel outside Marrakech in the middle of the desert among the palm trees. Learn to write with the greats.

[Andrew Muller]

I remain available, Alex, as I am forever attempting to remind you, should people wish to find out more about this. Where can they find out more about it?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

We are Silk Road slippers. So they can look at our website, silkroadslippers.com or they can read any of the pieces about us which have been in the Financial Times, National Geographic, the Times, lots and lots of newspapers.

[Andrew Muller]

And Nick, you returned sort of. It was a couple of weeks ago now, but you have recently been in Jakarta, a city I have always been curious to visit, but as yet, the opportunity has not descended.

[Nick Gowing]

Yes. Thank you, Andrew. I've never been to Indonesia before, even though I've been to Singapore and places around it. I was very struck. I went for a global town hall about the scale of the enormity of what we're facing, the uncertainties, the instabilities. I was very impressed by the organization that invited me there, but I was also very impressed by the kind of people they managed to gather. But it's been really sobering and very, very.

Problematic watching the television in the last two or three days because places I sort of knew I are inundated with mud and water and people clinging to trees, large number of people who've been literally washed away by enormous cyclones affecting Indonesia and going beyond Vietnam, Sri Lanka and so on.

[Andrew Muller]

Did the, just to follow up on that point, did the climate come up at this?

[Nick Gowing]

Very much so. I would think there were people talking directly from Belem at the time.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, we will start tonight's show in Venezuela, still uninvaded by the United States as of this broadcast. While the American armada continues sailing circles around the Caribbean, the row continues back in Washington, D.C. over the propriety of any future military action and the legality of such measures as have already been taken, specifically the striking and sinking of boats off Venezuela and elsewhere alleged to be carrying narcotics. That particular issue is the first such incident on September 2nd during which it has emerged a second strike was ordered on an already destroyed vessel in order to kill two survivors of the first strike. Nick, first of all, it is it is fascinating to consider the runes being scattered by this Admiral Frank Mitch Bradley, the head of U.S. special Operations Command, has been tagged by the White House as being the officer who gave the order for the second strike. Is he being ushered under the bus.

[Nick Gowing]

Do we think, under instructions from Washington, though, at the same time? So I think what you're seeing here, and certainly listening to a significant number of analysts, the Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier, the biggest in the American fleet being dispatched and an enormous fleet around him, plus soldiers, plus military officers and being prepared for what? And Trump seems to be furious about this, but he remember when he was standing for election, he said he didn't want to get involved in foreign, foreign escapades. This is a big one. But he's determined to get rid of Maduro and that's the bottom line, who lost the election last year by 40 percentage points.

[Andrew Muller]

We'll come back to the big picture shortly on the Smaller picture, Alex, a key figure in this, obviously, Secretary of Defence, Pete Hegseth, who thinks he's the Secretary of War, but isn't, and we're being pedantic on that point until or unless Congress changes the name. Do you share my hunch that if anybody in the current Trump administration has Fall guy written all over them, it is Hegseth?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

I think that is becoming quite apparent this week. You know, if it hasn't been already quite apparent to everyone for quite a long time. I mean, Pete Hexseth is somebody with a pretty sort of dodgy background anyway. Basically a podcaster who is. Yes, well, I don't want to be Secretary of Defence, and I certainly wouldn't.

[Nick Gowing]

You're qualified.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

More than. Probably more than Pete Hegseth. I certainly know more about Caribbean history. But, no.

He'S sort of panicked because he seems to be one of these people who is quite happy to tweet out rather sort of extraordinary statements, statements about killing people, and then have to row that back very fast when he suddenly realizes he might have admitted publicly to committing war crimes. And indeed, he does seem to be now trying to pass the buck on that particular action, as Senate Democrats and various other forces, indeed a Senate Republican, Rand Paul, are sort of rallying around this idea that actually this is quite a big problem and might need to be dealt with. Both the Senate and Congress concerned about what's going on.

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, Nick, does it strike you, though, that this administration, if whatever decision it makes about Venezuela is going to be at all swayed by legal considerations or the attempted obstructions of Congress? As Alex points out, there is a bipartisan group of senators who are trying to stop the president ordering military action against Venezuela without congressional approval.

[Nick Gowing]

But Trump has shown very clearly in the 11 months he's been in power that he does everything according to his agenda and he's prepared to issue executive orders. He's the commander in chief, and he. He will do what he wants. Interesting. Listening to Kim Darrett, the former British ambassador to Washington. He was on a platform this morning saying this is about determination of Trump to do something, and no one is going to get in his way. Nothing is going to get in his way, including Congress.

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, it is the case, referring to history, Alex, that supposedly the US President is required to seek congressional approval for military action. But has everyone on both sides sort of just given up on that? Because it has been a while.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

I mean, the thing is, Trump is out there kind of crashing through so many norms of the American presidency. The executive orders in fact, that Nick mentions being one of them, that that's not really how you govern in America, except in now is. Yes, exactly, exactly.

[Nick Gowing]

You undo what Joe Biden did as well, which is what he's done.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Indeed. And so the reality of the situation is that actually Trump's getting away with an awful lot of things that in any previous presidency would have caused all sorts of uproar and resistan instance. And it's quite hard, I think, because he's doing so many of them on so many fronts for actually the opposition to keep up with kind of opposing every single one of these things he's doing. I mean, certainly in terms of America has a very, very long history of intervening in Latin American and Caribbean politics, often from a sort of ideological standpoint, also from economic standpoints under the guise of ideology. And I think in Venezuela there's also a factor that we should look domestically at. The fact that Trump's popularity is looking really quite shaky at the moment. It's actually at its lowest ebb that it's been. We had several recent kind of election results, obviously, notably Zoramdani's win in New York, but also actually all around the US there have been various election results that have really gone swung very largely in favor of the Democrats and against the Republicans. And I think he's looking considerably weaker domestically. Now, that is quite often a moment when leaders start to look beyond their borders and can I have a nice war to rally people to my side?

[Andrew Muller]

But would it work for Trump though, Nick, because he has pitched himself as the President of peace. I mean, with great ostentation. His supplicants have renamed a building after him in Washington D.C. in honour of just exactly this. His whole thing was I won't get the United States into any more stupid foreign wars. Such pretext as we have been offered for any action against Venezuela seems kind of thin even by the standards of these things.

[Nick Gowing]

I agree, but this is about impunity and the fact that he believes he can get away with it. He's sick of Maduro. He's tried to talk to him on the phone. Maduro is still there. He's penned himself in. He's doing everything to avoid the special Forces which the Americans have probably put on the ground. And he's acting in every way to actually make sure that.

Trump is literally wrong footed by what is going on at the moment. Therefore, you've got to look at the fleet that he's sending, which I mentioned earlier, the fact that he's sending so much military power this is about a war. And the next thing is the message that's going to be sent to other countries that they can get away with trying to change a leadership, trying to change a regime by military power, the kind of thing which in modern days, after all the arms control and the agreements that there have been in the last 80 years, you say to yourself, surely that has come to an end. But Trump is doing the opposite of what he said, just as you said a moment ago.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Andrew.

[Andrew Muller]

Alex, just finally on this, if you would like to go ahead and recommend any particular book which might furnish listeners with a certain amount of, you know, historical context to this, but does it actually remind you of anything, what we are seeing? Because it does look, as Nick suggests, like some fairly plain old fashioned gunboat diplomacy.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Yes. I mean, you know, really, if you look at it in the longer view of America's interventions in the Caribbean and Latin America, there've been an awful lot of these going back for, you know, really a couple of hundred years. I mean, it's not actually new. There were a huge number in the 20th century and of course, you know, in the Caribbean and places like El Salvador coming well in towards the end of the 20th century as well. You know, these didn't just cease even with the international agreements that Nick rightly mentions. Yes. My book is called Red Heat and it's about the Cold War of the Caribbean. And there are a lot of these interventions and often on these sort of quite spurious grounds as well. I mean, I think particularly I would tell people to have a look at Operation Power pack in the 1960s, Lyndon Johnson invading the Dominican Republic.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, a reminder that the latest Foreign Desk explainer available now considers the amount of trouble Secretary Hegseth may have brought himself. But now to Beijing, which is the journey French President Emmanuel Macron has undertaken and where he is doubtless regarding, wistfully, a political settlement which does not trouble those at the apex with such tedious obstacles as a rancorous and obstructive parliament and volubly dissatisfied and ungrateful voters. Deals have been done covering education, agriculture, energy and the environment. And Chinese President Xi Jinping has expressed a preference for, quote, a fair conducive environment for Chinese business in France, much as a burly visitor with a heavily tattooed associate might express a preference that nothing happens to the nice little place you have here, Nick, should or have Russia related events of recent years made Europeans cageier about getting too economically entangled with China.

[Nick Gowing]

It's made them cageier. And we're in the United Kingdom. And we're facing a likely decision to go ahead with an enormous new Chinese Embassy, which is in the old Trinity House building, which is an extraordinarily wonderful building, which has been empty for years near Tower Bridge. I say that because this is about bilateral relations and indeed, Keir Starmer is probably going to go there in January. I think President Xi is very adept at playing every country he wants according to the Chinese agenda. This is the fourth visit by Macron to China in his term as president. He's clearly achieved a lot. He's clearly managed to calm the atmosphere, but I don't believe his pressure on Xi will have made any difference to the relationship between Xi and Putin. Putin was the guest of honor at the anniversary in Tiananmen Square a few weeks ago, and I don't see any reason, reason why Xi should in any way relax his pressure or increase his pressure, I should say, on Putin over Ukraine.

[Andrew Muller]

We did get a statement, Alex, possibly related to Ukraine from Xi Jinping. It's kind of hard to tell because, and I quote, China will continue to play a constructive role in resolving the conflict and support European nations in pushing for a balanced, effective and sustainable security framework. Does that mean anything at all?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Wow, that's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing, isn't it? Yes. I mean, I think Nick's absolutely right that I don't think China, you know, China is playing a game and she is, in fact, very, very adept at this of, you know, of sort of playing these countries often sort of saying soothing things to enough of them, while uncommittal things also to all of them. And I think particularly here, you know, the thing is the EU and France within that really does need China. You know, they're looking at big deficits. It's notable that Macron is over there with executives from Airbus, bnp, Paribas, Alstom, all these big French companies. You know, we are in a world where people are very much looking for Chinese investment. So it's not like Russia where they would just take a hard line, you know, with China, it's much more of a balance. And she knows that, obviously, and is also playing that. And so, you know, he will say diplomatic things such as you just quoted, but I also don't think that he's really going to move an awful lot on Ukraine or, you know, make himself a key player in that.

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, do we get a sense after three and a half years of trying to figure out China's position on this, Nick, whether China actually really cares one way or the Other about Ukraine, do they have a preferred outcome?

[Nick Gowing]

They have to care about it because the impact is similar in many other places where the Chinese operate and try to influence. The Chinese are determined to influence so many countries, including the United Kingdom, including most countries in Europe as well. So I think you have to look at this as a massive long term play by the Chinese and they are not going to be in any way persuaded to do things in a different way, even though President Macron goes there, even though Keir Starmer goes there, even though there are big bilateral visits. And I think the impact on Russia is limited. But it's heartening for Putin to know that Xi is actually supporting him up to a certain point. But when you look at what Putin was doing two days ago in headquarters in the eastern part of Ukraine, an occupied part of Ukraine, in camouflage fatigues, he is very self confident at the moment. Same yesterday with Steve Witkoff in Moscow and now he's in Delhi.

[Andrew Muller]

Macron, Alex is going tomorrow to Chengdu with Xi Jinping. They will possibly be seeing two pandas that were recently returned after being leased by France. Apparently more pandas may yet be promised. I mean, I know the concept of panda diplomacy has been gone into ad infinitum, not least on the airwaves of Monocle Radio, but is this still a big deal, the whole pandas thing? Do people take seriously whether or not China is willing to let a given country rent a couple of pandas for a year or two?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

I mean, evidently, because here we have two great world leaders traveling together to Sichuan to see two pandas. I mean, a meeting of equals. What can we say?

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, in fairness, if there was a free ride, going to see a couple of pandas, I'd take it.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Well, absolutely.

[Andrew Muller]

And who doesn't enjoy a panda?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

So would I. But I'm not President of France, you know, I think the panda diplomacy is enormous fun. But actually, I suppose also what it probably gives gives is some wonderful photo opportunities, you know, and that is perhaps a factor for both leaders, that this looks good, that it's soft power. You know, pandas are soft. It works well in that respect.

[Nick Gowing]

When you look at them, they're soft.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Yeah.

[Nick Gowing]

When you get close to them, really.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Maybe they've got claws. Really.

[Andrew Muller]

Have you been maimed by a panda at some point?

[Nick Gowing]

I've never put myself in that position, but I've been warned, as it eats.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

The bamboo, who knows what could happen tomorrow to these world leaders.

[Nick Gowing]

But it's a symbol of detente, it's a symbol of goodwill. To be taken to pandas, even though pandas tend not to mate very easily, have little chance of producing offspring abroad.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Perhaps there's a message there.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, to Ukraine now, which will hopefully possibly become easier than it presently is, sooner rather than later. In advance of which budget airlines are reportedly plotting to return just as soon as Ukrainian airspace is reliably free of the Russian projectiles which have latter confined travel to and from Ukraine to railroad or sea. Wizz Air and Easyjet are sketching plans to resume or add Ukrainian routes and Ryanair says it will begin landing in Ukraine within two weeks of a peace deal. Or at least. And please adopt brace position in advance of inevitable Ryanair joke about liberties often taken with proximity of airport and destination landing in Italy, but saying it's Ukraine. Nick, this is one of those stories which I think you would have to say it would be weirder if this wasn't happening. That is, it would be weird if airlines weren't making plans to return to Ukraine one day.

[Nick Gowing]

We're nowhere close to this. It's pie in the sky and I'm not being facetious here. The idea that civil aviation is going to fly into a war zone even if there is a ceasefire, unless there is an absolute cop car hard determination to make sure that the airspace is safe, forget it. Remember what happened to MH17 which was shot down by the Russians by a bug missile, where an operation.

On a big.

Carrier and a team saw a plane up in the sky and thought they would shoot it down. They mistook it. The idea that Ryanair or Wizz Air are going to risk their planes in any case, most of the airports are heavily destroyed, apart from probably Lviv in the west of the country. I think it's for the birds, this, and I'm not being facetious.

[Andrew Muller]

No, I'm sure you're entirely right. Airlines, Alex tender were, and rightly so, on the side of caution in such matters. But I was struck that Wizzair CEO Joseph Varardi saying he thought there would be something of a boom in what he called and something may have been lost in translation here, catastrophe. Tourism.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Yes, he did. Rather distasteful comment on the surface of it. Perhaps there was a context of which we are unaware. Who can say? But I do think, I mean, Ukraine did have, you know, in 2019, so before the pandemic obviously changed things and then the war, apparently 15 million passengers flew into Ukraine. That's quite a substantial tourist industry in tourism.

[Andrew Muller]

It is a delightful country indeed and.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

You know, large and with plenty to see. I Mean, you know, and tourism is the world's biggest industry now, you know, very much I hope that, you know, after this awful war is over, whenever that happens, and however that happens, I very much hope Ukraine will be back on people's list of destinations. But I'm afraid I do think that might be a way off. And certainly none of these airlines are going to go anywhere near it.

[Nick Gowing]

This is a dangerous country with enormous number of mines, enormous numbers of ammunition, and look what's happening in Kiev at the moment. They're on 20 hours, 21 hours when they have no electricity. I mean, it's almost obscene to talk about catastrophe tourism. This is not going to be tourism. Certainly it might be in Kiev, it might be in the west of the country when the airports are safe to fly into, but at the moment, I would say it's a long way off and certainly not in the east of the country.

[Andrew Muller]

And, I mean, there would also be the difficulties, Alex, of getting yourself insured to travel to Ukraine until or unless the various, you know, foreign and commonwealth and similar officers sign off on it.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Yes, I mean, generally speaking, getting insurance to fly to places like that is a sketchy matter at best. I don't think that this is happening anytime soon. But of course, as you say, what is happening really, and the reason for presumably these press releases is that airlines are looking towards. Towards a future beyond the war. However, they have no more idea than the rest of us when that will be.

[Nick Gowing]

This happens all the time with airlines. They're always looking for new destinations, new ways of using their aircraft. So this is nothing new, it just happens to be made into something more of a story, I think. But I don't think we should take this at all seriously. At the moment, we are talking about potentially a ceasefire, but as we've seen in Gaza, ceasefires don't mean an end to fire.

[Andrew Muller]

There was one question I did want to put to you, Alex, as a historian. It is the idea of, and again, it may have gone askew in translation, catastrophe tourism, because it is a thing whereby millions of people every year travel to places, because that place used to be a battlefield and nobody necessarily thinks there's anything weird or sinister about it. So what is the time limit here, do you think?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Well, I think it's quite a complicated mix of actually not really time limit, but sort of. Sort of cultural factors, because, yes, you're right, there are. I mean, this is a hugely fraught field, actually, and something that people get quite upset about, because I think many people would think that going to See the battlefields of the Somme and so forth is actually a sort of dignified and respectful thing to do. Whereas I think a lot of people think that, for instance, holding your wedding at a plantation in the US is a violently distasteful thing to do. And there are lots of very different opinions on, on how these things all function and what sort of events is appropriate, what sort of visit is appropriate. Of course, for instance, you are encouraged for your historical education to visit camps such as Auschwitz, which are historical memorials. But then there's a great deal of feeling about how people behave there. When my husband led tours of it, they quite frequently had to tell people to stop taking selfies in the gas chambers. So unfortunately, I think this is just a very, very fraught field, which is, you can't help. People will be interested in world events. Of course they are, but the taste level, should we say, may vary.

[Nick Gowing]

But these were wars of 80 years ago. Even in Yugoslavia 30 years ago, it's still incredibly dangerous to walk in areas where you think there's no fighting. There are mines. And I happened to be talking to a mine clearer the other day, a former British officer, and he said, what is happening in Ukraine is deeply, deeply lethal. And a lot of people are being blown up sowing the seeds for their next year's wheat harvest.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, sticking with the theme of encouraging tourism or trying to, Thailand plans to make it easier for tourists to get drunk slightly earlier. For a six month trial period, Thailand will suspend the current restrictions whereby purchasing alcohol is banned from 2pm to 5pm, a rule originally introduced in 1972 to discourage government employees from drinking on the job. The new move is being pitched as a lure to visitors and a move with the times, though it may just be a resignation to the futility of imposing it in the first place, given that it doesn't seem to have done much to deter Thailand's bibulous people, among the most prolific imbibers in Asia and probably not coincidentally, 16th in the world for road traffic deaths. Alex, what is going on here? Is this a government thinking, okay, we can't be bothered enforcing this entirely useless law anymore, so we're just going to try and style it out?

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Surely that, and again, surely a good excuse for a press release saying, come to Thailand, it's available, we've fallen for it. I mean, we must say first of all that there's always been quite big gray areas. I actually was unaware of this law having been to Thailand because in fact there are exemptions for airport, airports, entertainment venues and hotels that is all the places you might have a drink in the afternoon, basically. So it turns out that this just sort of hasn't really been enforced in any meaningful way. And I think most tourists would have been unaware that that was even a factor, that one wasn't allowed it, since the hotel is quite happy to serve you whichever drink you would like all afternoon.

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, yes, liberties can be taken with such restrictions, Nick. And at which point I recall sometime in the early 90s, driving with friends to collect another friend at Galway Airport in the west of Ireland on Easter Sunday and being baffled when we arrived that the term terminal was absolutely rampacked, the car park full, you could barely get near the place. And this was to meet one tiny plane coming from Dublin. And then we realized the airport conserve on Easter Sunday.

Would this even have made any sense though, Nick, in 1972? I mean, surely just sacking people for being drunk at work is a bigger deterrent.

[Nick Gowing]

Yeah, there was an almost puritanical. I don't know Thailand at all. Well, I've been there several times, but I don't know it well, frankly, you know, you can still enjoy a holiday without having to imbibe our.

[Andrew Muller]

I think this is news to a lot of the tourists that I saw in Thailand the one time I went near.

[Nick Gowing]

I think one of the issues that there is is the number of tourists who've been poisoned by being given a drink when they've arrived at a hotel or bed and breakfast and found themselves struggling for life or dying.

[Andrew Muller]

Alex. The UK used to go through various connections pertaining to its licensing laws and when you could and couldn't buy a drink, which. And actually many countries have. Australia used to do the same as well. Do things like. Like this, taking the historical view, ever actually work? Because people just find a way, I think.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

I'm afraid people do find a way. I mean, I was struck recently, being in Norway that you can, you know, only buy alcohol from certain shops, sort of monopoly shops, and only at certain times and not at weekends and so on. Doesn't seem to stop them at all. They're still, you know, quite keen on a drink in Norway. And I think, you know, ultimately, I think a lot of people see this sort of thing as a creative challenge.

[Nick Gowing]

That one must then work around, take it on.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Indeed, indeed. And sort of buy your alcohol in huge bulk when you're able to and, you know, mete it out or whatever. I think these things have very limited effect, quite honestly. And you're probably right that if the goal was to stop people drinking at work then that was possibly the way to go about.

[Andrew Muller]

Does strike me just finally on this, Nick, that we are talking about a period a long time ago during which I think not just in Thailand but elsewhere, drinking during working hours was, was much more common than it presently is. Is. Is there anything to miss about those times? Was there any arg.

Returning to work after what I think would have been euphemistically referred to as a long lunch?

[Nick Gowing]

I don't think that it's that kind of issue. I think it's something which clearly the king and the royal court wanted to do and we were determined to create a degree of purity. But I think time has marched on. 50 years have passed and therefore you've got to think of it in a different way. The whole texture of what we're talking about is very, very different. Different. And it's a 247 world.

[Andrew Muller]

And just going back finally to another grotesque plug for your your writing workshops, your writing boot camps. Alex, have there been discussions on whether having a few during daytime writing hours is conducive or non conducive? Because I, I will say in my few very early experiments with like trying to be a proper gonzo reporter, I, I found it non conducive.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

You know, it's not actually come up. Nobody has. Everyone's so serious about the writing that.

[Andrew Muller]

Nobody why you should invite me.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

You know, I mean, obviously we are in a, in a Muslim country, but Morocco is fairly liberal about alcohol and actually quite happy to serve you a drink most of the time in most places. But, but no, it hasn't come up. Although I'm now reminded of, I think, Liz Hurley's comment that the average Englishman is a couple of gin and tonics under par. So maybe, maybe that's what one needs to get into the writing.

[Nick Gowing]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean to say you write better because of it. I certainly don't write better when I've had old no, I don't think it would be at all. I need clarity for duration apart from anything else to be able to write. Keep writing for several hours. Motivation rather than falling asleep.

[Alex von Tunzelman]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Muller]

Alex von Tonzelman and Nick Gowing, thanks for joining us. Finally on today's show, Design Miami, the world's most the world's foremost, it says here Collectible Design Fair opened on Tuesday and continues until Sunday. There to find out exactly what collectible design even is, albeit in between dips in the Atlantic and vodka martinis at Sunny's Steakhouse are monocles. Design editor Nick Monice and associate Editor Grace Charlton.

[Grace Charlton]

Thanks, Andrew Muller. Grace and I are coming to you from south beach in Miami. It is a glorious day here. Sun is out. I've had a little bit of a dip this morning to kind of round out our coverage, but it is a work trip, Grace.

[Andrew Muller]

Yep. And I think it's important to really bring that home. We're here for Design Miami, which is a collectible design fair that takes place at the same time as Art Basel Miami, which is the ultra prestigious contemporary art fair that is also taking place. But Nick, I want to ask you, how would you define what collectible design is for someone like Andrew Muller?

[Grace Charlton]

Say, I feel like somebody like Andrew Muller could really kind of relate to it because he sort of embodies collectible design. It can be everything from things that are antique, like Mr. Muller, things that are bold and colorful, also like Mr. Muller, through to maybe things that are a little bit more like. Grace Charlton, contemporary young one off sort of pieces. So we've got the full spectrum. Spectrum represented here in Desire Miami, but also embodied by the Monocle team.

[Andrew Muller]

And it's a fun fair. It's good for people watching. Much like the design that Nick has just described, the people there are also very particular. The design is amazing. Nick, what would you buy from the fair if you could?

[Grace Charlton]

What would I buy from the fair? I mean, I'd love to buy a dinner with a few people that attended just because I want to stick to that for a little moment because it is such a wonderful kind of bizarre crowd. You've kind of got everyone from like gallerists and design designers, like, looking very smart in like technical suits and maybe some designers with some crazy colorful T shirts on through to a lot of figure hugging dresses. I mean, you were talking about a lot of Botox being on show.

[Andrew Muller]

Yeah, I went to Art Basel as well, and there was a woman who was wearing head to toe Chanel and she decided to accessorize with a floaty around her neck as an accessory. And it was hot pink, obviously. So I think people come to see these works of art dressed like works.

[Grace Charlton]

Of art, I think. So I feel like I could have used that floaty on that swim. I'm still recovering. I'm so puffed out. But equally, I mean, you kind of asked me what I would buy. You can build the most amazing kind of shopping list. I mean, we saw a stand that was dedicated to post modernist design in the United states from the 1980s to the 1990s. Just kind of like really wacky, playful kind of. I don't know, cool things, like something a little bit different, unexpected. The thing that jumped out we've both talked about since is this Batman chair that was. Looked like they could of like froze Batman or covered him in resin and then folded him into a chair. Is that. And thinned him out.

[Andrew Muller]

I want to say it was an homage to Batman's abs of steel. You know, I was particularly taken by this sofa by the French designer Matthieu de Renal. And it came with a pillow shaped like a little handbag that matched the sort of like chartreuse green upholstery of it. And that's where you can store those ugly remote controls that otherwise ruin the aesthetic of your impeccably curated living room. I also really liked the Fendi exhibition that was in partnership with this Argentinian designer called Connie Valleze. And her stuff was just stunning. It was like brass, but then also this baby blue and banana yellow leather paneling on a room divider. It was just like modern day Marie Antoinette in Miami, I think as well.

[Grace Charlton]

The other one that jumped out at me, I mean, you're going modern day Marie Antoinette. There's also just some of the most remarkable simple, pared back pieces on show. George Nakashima's work was presented by this Philadelphia based modern gallery. I was obsessed with it. I went back and talked to the guy that runs it, Joshua, a couple of times. You know, this is an amazing designer who spawned a whole movement in the United States, the studio craft movement. And it was all about work that was honouring the material. I think the standout piece for me by Nakashima that was on show were these benches that had these unfinished raw edges and the imperfections in the timber, they were like kind of holes in the seats. Not making it uncomfortable, but almost artistic statements along the seats. And the pieces looked wonderful, but the materials look wonderful. And you realise that, I guess design sits in this bigger ecosystem. I mean, it must have been borderline embarrassing to be there with me because I kept telling Joshua, the guy that runs the gallery, that these reminded me of works that my uncles made in Australia in the 1990s. But it's showing the reach of design and why fairs like Design Miami matters. I mean, what for you, why is this a significant place to be?

[Andrew Muller]

Yeah, it's a funny one because sometimes I feel a bit guilty that we cover design and, you know, fun things in fun places like Miami, while people like Andrew Muller care about world politics. But I think there is something to be said about the joy that everyday settings can bring and the joy of interior decoration and self expression through design. Nick, I want to ask you, what's the risk? What happens if the world just decides it's not worth our time time to care about beautiful interiors?

[Grace Charlton]

I think for me it's like, why spend time in a space that doesn't lift your spirit? And I think that's the sort of discussions that take place this week. I think as well, it's probably worth talking about the fact that Design Miami is also sitting within this bigger ecosystem. I mean, you mentioned Art Basel there and the fact that it is this enormous, enormous art fair. Design Miami, by comparison, is quite tiny. And I think what I would love to see is a shift and a growing appreciation for the importance of the work that is shown in the likes of Design Miami. I mean, have you observed in your coverage a kind of growth in interest in this movement?

[Andrew Muller]

So much collectible design is on the rise. Salone del Mobile, the big Milan design fair that we cover a lot at Monaco, has just announced they're also going to have their own collectible design components. It's like the biggest conversation topic at the moment. So much to think about, much to look forward to, keeping an eye out for it.

[Grace Charlton]

And I think as well in Miami itself, there was also the announcement that they were going to expand their fare to Dubai. They've already got a presence in Paris. They previously had one in Basel, now they're bringing it to the Gulf states. And I think it's reflecting, yeah, this growing interest in this growing movement. I mean, throw it back to you. Finally, if you could pick a few pieces for Andrew Miller's home because let's be honest, I'm a little bit worried about the state of his place.

[Andrew Muller]

I think there might be a bit of IKEA there and some, well, actually some one off antiques from his travels through Southeast asia in the 90s. I want to say, Andrew, I would deck your home out in some gorgeous refined 1980s metal chairs from Galeriesigne in Paris. So I'll be thinking of you, Andrew. And we're sending hugs from Miami.

[Grace Charlton]

A firm handshake from me. Andrew, I know you like to keep your distance. We look forward to seeing you next week.

[Andrew Muller]

Not nearly as much as I do. That is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Nick Gowing and Alex von Tontelman playing us out, out.

And among the many for whom Steve Cropper played it. Not only Sam and Dave, but Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, Eddie Floyd, Booker t. And the MGs, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Rod Stewart and John Fogarty. Steve Cropper, who has died at the age of 84, was beyond any question one of the most influential guitarists of all time. Time, though, was never much for the ostentatious fretboard heroics of most of the others who fill that list. He played rhythm with a light, unfussy touch. When he played lead, it was with a self effacement that almost seemed to border on reluctance. In neither role was a note played out of place. Steve Cropper was also a colossal songwriter, at least partially responsible for standards including Time Is Tight, Knock on Wood, Sitting on the Dock of the Bay in the Midnight Hour and Green Onions. Directly or indirectly, if you enjoyed the produce of the 1960s Rhythm and blues boom, you enjoyed the work of Steve Cropper.

Today's show was produced by Anita Riota and researched by Joanna Moser. Our sound engineer was Mariella Bevan, with editing assistance from David Stevens. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.