← The Monocle Daily
The Monocle Daily
Venezuela calls on the UN over ‘ongoing US aggression’. Plus: how should governments deal with hate speech?
00:34:28
Loading summary
Transcript66 lines
- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 18 December 2025 on Monocle Radio.
- [00:07]
B
Venezuela tries to get the UN Security Council interested in the American armada off its shores. Australia wonders if stopping people saying terrible things will stop them doing terrible things. And is Santa Claus underpaid or his elves overpaid? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts now.
- [00:27]
C
Foreign.
- [00:38]
B
Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Elizabeth Brough and Yossi Meckelburg will discuss today's big stories. And our weekly letter from is from Magdeburg to Sydney. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily.
- [00:56]
D
Foreign.
- [01:03]
B
This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I'm joined today by Elizabeth Brough, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, author of the upcoming title Undersea War, and by Yossi Meckelburg, senior consulting fellow at the Middle East North Africa program at Chatham House. Hello to you both.
- [01:18]
D
Hello.
- [01:19]
B
It is, it is the second last daily of 2025. It is Christmas imminently, like literally this time next week. Yossi, first of all, do you have any scorching hot Christmas plans? What is Christmas like round at Chez Meckleburg?
- [01:36]
D
Hopefully a very quiet one. Hopefully nothing happens in the Middle East.
- [01:40]
B
Well, good luck with that.
- [01:42]
D
Interrupts two weeks of doing as little as possible, read as much as possible, listen to music, movies, sing family. My daughter coming and her husband coming down from Scotland. It should be a very nice family home.
- [01:56]
B
You just want a. Over the last 3,000 years, historically unusual fortnight of relative calm if possible. Okay, well that's something. Something to ask Santa for perhaps a character who will be recurring later in this episode. Elizabeth, what goes on at your place at Christmas?
- [02:13]
A
Well, first I have to say the first Christmas the angels said peace on earth. So let's hope for that. And I like you, Yossi. I am not sure that will happen. But at least we can hope for it at my house. We'll all be there. And scorching hearts I will be baking. Okay, yeah, traditional cookies and pastries and so forth. So wish me luck. It's one of my specialties. But you never know until the thing comes out of the oven.
- [02:46]
B
Well, we will start in Venezuela, which has requested a gathering of the UN Security Council to discuss what it describes as ongoing US aggression against the country. Said US aggression amounts to the assembly of a large and ominous naval flotilla off Venezuela's coast. The Repeated American targeting of what may or may not be drug smuggling boats and the barely veiled threats of US President Donald Trump to cry havoc, let's slip the dogs of war, etc. While Trump did earlier this week order a blockade of sanctioned oil tankers coming and going from Venezuela, he did not, somewhat surprisingly, make any reference to Venezuela in last night's Oval Office address to the which could probably have been an email or at least a frantic sequence of all caps social media posts. Elizabeth, though your imminent book of course, does discuss undersea war, this is more your oversea variety. Why is Venezuela taking this, to borrow the lyrics of Summertime Blues to the United Nations?
- [03:49]
A
That was a good reference. So it's not a surprise that Venezuela is trying to do something about it. So there are two reasons. The first one is that Venezuela is a country that depends on oil exports, has been exporting oil in violations of sanctions for years now simply because it needs to export the oil, which is why it's one of the key users of the shadow fleet. So that's the first thing it needs to export the oil. The second thing, and we should remember that even though shadow vessels violate various rules, they have the right to travel on the world's oceans. They just risk being inspected and detained, but they have the right, like every other vessel, to traverse the world's oceans. The second thing is that the US actions so far and the ones that look likely are not exactly fully compliant with international law, including international maritime law. And so Venezuela would have some prospect of success if it were to take this to the United nations as it now says it's going to do. And what we have already seen are those, for example, the strikes against so called drug boats, that's not about oil, it's about drugs. But nevertheless, if another country had been subjected to that kind of thing, it would most likely have taken it to the United States. The United nations, not the United States United Nations. And so it's not surprising that this is happening. Let's see how the vote goes. That, as always, is the key in the un.
- [05:31]
B
Well, Yossi, the vote on the Security Council might fall to Venezuela. They do have among the non permanent members at the moment some possible allies, Algeria, Guyana, Panama, they can probably count on Russia and China as well. But ultimately the United nations, the United States rather will veto any UN Security Council resolution it doesn't like. So does this actually make any difference to anything?
- [05:55]
D
You know, we got to a point in international affair, it's all performative because at the end of the day you know, not that we do cynicism or skepticism here.
- [06:03]
B
Indeed not never.
- [06:05]
D
But you know, just imagine there is a UN Security Council resolution that tells the Americans, you know, you shouldn't behave and they don't even veto themselves. What's going to happen next? Probably nothing. So all what we get, we'll get another empty rhetoric and that's what the UN ends in another performance. And as Elizabeth at the end of the day international law, the way that the main powers behave is basically dead. So you have one member of the Security Council invaded the country and four years later is still holding territory of another, this Russia and Ukraine. Then the United States is bombing. And by the way, it's not only about narco terrorism as they put it, which is their own definition of this. Actually Trump said in so called true social that it's about oil. He said, you know they stole our oil, they stole our land. So is Venezuela actually American soil. It is their oil. And you know, as you would expect me, for me it reminds exactly what they did after the Cuban Revolution. You know, the revolution confiscated nationalized the sugar industry and the next thing they had, you know, from 1950 now actually from 1960 sanctions on Cuba. And they're repeating the same mistakes that perpetuate the kind of relations they have. And they revoke the Monroe doctrine which is 202 years old, which says not only because the Monroe Doctrine originally was about fending off the great powers, the European powers of Latin America, they say no, actually we're taking it over whenever it's convenient.
- [07:52]
B
So this is a different the Donroe Doctrine people are calling it Elizabeth. Does something though here have to give at some point because this forced the United States States has amassed off Venezuela is significant by some estimations. This is a quarter of the active US Navy is now looming off Venezuela's coast. And the thing is with a thing like that, once you march your troops all the way to the top of the hill, we are now quoting the grand old Duke of York. You look somewhat foolish if you just march them back down again. Do we have a risk where the United States feels obliged to undertake some action with who knows what consequences just because they have done this much of a build up?
- [08:35]
A
Well, I don't think so. So they can always say we achieved such and such objective and they can find an objective that they say they've achieved. But it's not about achieving a particular an objective that can be found somewhere on the list of things what the Trump administration wants and I think what previous administrations have also wanted. But the Trump administration fervently so is regime change in Venezuel. Even if they were to be able to say, well look, Venezuela stopped doing this or that after we sent a quarter of the navy to the waters off the Venezuelan coast, I don't think that would be enough. If you want to unseat the regime, you're not going to be content or satisfied if the regime says we are not going to do whatever small thing it is they might agree to stop doing the Venezuelans. So if you say if any country says we want regime change in such and such country, then if you get anything less than that, then you have to keep going.
- [09:49]
B
Just finally on this Yossi, do you get the impression from your own occasional adventures in the United States that there is any public appetite for a war with Venezuela? Because the thing is, however much you try and wind this one up, Nicolas Maduro is an extremely unconvincing bogeyman. I mean Venezuela is not any meaning threat to the United States. It could between it barely hit the cherry off a fairy cake. I have looked this up. The USS Gerald R. Ford has a larger air force than Venezuela does. Would the American public, even Trump's base, be all aboard for war with Venezuela?
- [10:27]
D
Maybe just one point before that. Usually when it happens, like start talking on regime change, it consolidates actually the exact regime that you want to topple because it helps to get rid of your opponents because they collaborate with the enemy. So it usually achieved the opposite. No, there is no appetite in the United States. If you look at every survey in the United States, what bothers its cost of living, its immigration, its health premium, its level of crime in main cities? The list generally of foreign affairs in American interest go back to 10, 11, 12 of their interest. Why would they interest in a war in Venezuela when they have other things closer to home? So the appetite is not there.
- [11:13]
B
Well, to Australia now, which has the grimmest possible reason to ponder such links as may exist between violent rhetoric and violence. Like many countries over the last two years and a bit, Australia has hosted many protests against Israel's actions in Gaza. As with many protests of that kind, these attracted and emboldened. Emboldened rather an unabashedly anti Semitic tendency which thrived between a tradition of free speech and an official squeamishness at being seen to crack down in the wake of Sunday's massacre At a Hanukkah celebration on Bondi beach in Sydney, Australia's Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is promising a much harder line on hate speech. Yossi, first of all, it has been said many times in the wake of Sunday's shootings at Bondi that Australia's government had been warned repeatedly by leaders of Australia's Jewish community that this is where this always ends, that the, you know, the anti Semitic speech that has been associated with those demonstrations, the anti Semitic arson and vandalism which has also gone along with them, people have been trying to point out that we know what the end point to this sort of thing is. Should the government have paid more attention sooner?
- [12:25]
D
And not only in Australia, we see it here, we see it in Europe, we see it in the United States and obviously it's unacceptable. We see rising antisemitism on a high level, by the way, also in Islamophobia. We have a problem in society. We have an issue how we deal with differences, how we deal with the others in society. And instead of reducing the flames, there are those who actually thrive or increasing the flames in society. And I think we should address it. We obviously that in many countries they don't take it seriously enough. But a point that I would like to make between this and claiming as Prime Minister Netanyahu said, that recognizing a Palestinian state led to these connectivities. This is false. And that's of course he would say that because he is against it. The problem is different. Antisemitism exists then some conflate antisemitism with Zionism with anti Jewish. So there is a lot of mix up of things. The one thing is for sure, nothing can justify political violence on any side. And this, what this is the core thing we need. It just tells me, yes, there are different ways to do it through education, interfaiths dialogues, explaining, you know, from very early age the difference between what is legitimate criticism of any policy and what is hate speech. So there is a lot work. As for the security forces, obviously they failed there because they didn't find that someone is organizing that thing is unfortunately as how horrific was this attack? There is no 100% security anywhere. If people indeterminate what for me was a great surprise because usually I look at the United States and gun control, why anyone will have six firearms in.
- [14:14]
B
Their possession is a reasonable question which is definitely being asked in Australia. And well, I think possibly the more pertinent question is why anybody has any firearms when their son has attracted the attention of the intelligence services for his associations. But the difficulty Australia is about to run up against, Elizabeth, is the same difficulty that many countries have run up against with this. It's on the one hand it's easy to say we're against hate speech and we are going to take action against hate speech. But that means you're going to have to define hate speech and you're going to have to draw lines around particular phrases and particular words and particular constructions of phrases and words. And that's really no easy task.
- [14:58]
A
It's not. I remember a few years ago I attended a talk in London about something else, but one of the panelists was a Danish rabbi called Melchior. His own name. I can't remember his name now. But anyway, he said we should have a. Michael Malky. Exactly. He said we should have. In our Western societies, we should have a social contract that everybody needs to sign that, that states this is how we interact with one another in our societies. I thought that is a brilliant solution. And if you, if you want to live in our societies, you should sign this social contract that essentially is a, a code of conduct, code of decent and honorable conduct. But we don't have that. And what we have, though, Andrew, is not just people who are willing to be radical because it brings them attention and because it brings them maybe prominence in some circles. We also have platforms that are willing to enable that conduct because they make money on it. And this is so dangerous. I'm not saying that Meta or any other social media platform was behind this, but the social media platforms are always slow and sluggish in policing dangerous and offensive behavior online simply because they make money not by moderation and people saying nice things. They make money by people saying. From people saying outrageous things, sometimes about other religions.
- [16:35]
B
Yossi, we don't yet know quite what the sources of radicalism were or radicalization were for the the two alleged gunmen in Bondi, it would be astonishing to discover that neither of them had spent a great deal of time online and on various social media platforms. And elaborating on Elizabeth's point, is it clear to you? Because it is not clear to me why Australia's government, and indeed why the government of any democracy does not say to the social media platforms, you either clean this up or you're out of business.
- [17:06]
D
Absolutely. I think this is what you see sometimes on social media is unacceptable. Before the age of social media, if you say something like this in public, you'll be really reprimanded. Sometimes in Putin jail, I mean, there will be. Now there is a real issue. What is the kind of the line between freedom of speech and we want to have a vibrant debate in society. And at one point, actually it will become a tool to silence Completely legitimate opinion. But this is part of the discourse in society until we get it as right as possible. But I don't think it's only social media. Politicians play with fire as well. Some of what we hear in rallies, what we see in some segments of the media, incitement here about migrants, incitement of ethnic groups, it's not much better. So social media is part of it, by the way, part of the politicians are actually doing that on social media. So they need it in order to disseminate what they want. We have a real issue of how we discuss things and how we find some, as Elizabeth said, what is the social contact, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, how we conduct conversations that help us to figure out what is the right way to live in society, what is legitimate or not, and what is completely out of bound and shouldn't be.
- [18:25]
B
Just finally on this one, Elizabeth, as we were discussing that there is always a problem with trying to regulate language because phrases adapt. If you say one particular phrase or saying or song is verboten, then people will adapt it into something else. And you end up with the position, as we've seen here in London, of bewildered police officers wondering if they should arrest somebody wearing a T shirt that says Plasticine Action instead of the name of the prescribed organization, Palestine Action. That being understood, is it nevertheless that there is a case for passing laws like this in the full knowledge that they are possibly ineffectual and possibly open to ridicule. But it is that country and that society making at least a statement and saying, we do not tolerate this and we would prefer it if you didn't behave like this.
- [19:18]
A
I think it starts somewhere completely different. It's by leading personalities reminding our fellow citizens that they should look at whatever they say from other people's perspective. And I mean, we were all taught this as children. Think about how the other, how that makes the other person feel. I think we have all heard that. Why is it that then that goes away once we have passed the age of seven? It's relevant throughout our lives. And I think we should be reminded of that. And there are people who are very influential in our societies. I think they should be called upon to take, to start encouraging their fellow citizens to think twice before they speak and especially before they act. It may well be that whatever they are, a person is thinking of saying is fine, but at least we should think before we speak. And maybe we should learn from. We can learn from kindergarteners who are still taught this. I know they are. So there's a Lesson there.
- [20:30]
B
Well, to the European Union, which is seeking to address a problem which is vexing the entire block. That is the difficulty many of its citizens, especially its younger ones, are having finding somewhere affordable to live. Across the EU, home prices have risen 60% in a decade, whereas wages, by and large have very much not. The European Commission has accordingly unveiled its first ever affordable housing plan. There are three principal prongs to it. More public cash for new homes, discouragement of short term rentals, and liberating construction from burdensome regulation. Yossi, I don't. I am sympathetic to the dilemma of the EU and European governments. If I knew how to reduce housing costs without absolutely enraging people who already have mortgages, I would be at home polishing my Nobel Prize for economics. But nevertheless, does any of this strike you as anything that's going to work?
- [21:27]
D
It seems that it will help because you need some intervention. You have a generation and find it's very difficult to get into. You know, they are just paying rent, spending all this money. The people that have, you know, the properties are basically taxing them for living. And, you know, many people that live in certain cities can actually afford living. You know, they're working in a city, they can afford living in the same city. Something goes wrong. You know, those of us who remember 20 years ago, 25 years ago, on one two salaries, you could buy something reasonable in London and in other places, and it's impossible right now unless you're in a very specific profession. The other ones are priced out. And this is most of the society. So you have work in hospital, in education, and lot of jobs that are needed. So you need intervention, you need involvement. There is another thing. There is the environmental issue of this. The more you build on green areas, you know, the more you have environmental challenge here. But you need to find a different way in which, you know, people that have more than one house will pay more taxes in order to ensure that it's more affordable for others. And there is something else. You know, bring back public housing, you know, council flats, however you call it, which is affordable at least for young people or people in poverty can start their life. Otherwise, it's a losing game for them from the very beginning.
- [22:52]
B
Elizabeth, do you discern here an amount of political panic? I mean, Dan Jorgensen, the Housing Commissioner, he wasn't even saying the quiet part out loud. I think this is the loud part. He said words to the effect that if the eu, European governments don't get a grip on this, extremists will feed on it because you can write the script. The reason you can't afford somewhere to live is that there's too many foreigners, which isn't true, but that's what they'll say.
- [23:17]
A
And in fact, JD Vance just said yesterday, literally that. Exactly. He said rents have gone down in the US for four months. I'm not sure that that is the case. But anyway, he said that's because we have expelled so many illegal migrants. So yes, that is the script that certain politicians will use if prices continue to be high. It's interesting that it's that property prices and rents are somehow conflated in this debate. And these are obviously two completely different parts of the housing sector. But anyway, I think one part of that proposal that sounds really promising is the ambition to crack down on short term rental, to regulate to better oversee short term rentals. That is the Airbnb economy. Because this is what really taking housing away from people who want to live in a particular neighborhood, especially in certain cities. But Airbnb and similar platforms obviously exist in most places now. And that's not just a problem for the people who would want to rent those properties, but also for the communities themselves. If you don't have people living for a long time, if you just have people staying for a couple of nights, then the whole sense of community just vanishes. Not good for any city, town, village.
- [24:50]
B
Well, sticking with the subject of stagnant wages, it seems that the European Commission may be compelled to look into not just affordable houses and apartments, but affordable grottos. Research has determined that the pay packets of Santa Clauses, or Santa's clause, whichever is correct, have not swelled appreciably since the previous Yuletide, the average department store or garden center Father Christmas trousering a mere 15 quid per hour of toler, the importuning of avaricious infants. Elves have had a slight bump, on average about a pound an hour up since last December, but are still somewhat less remunerated than the Big Fellow. Elizabeth, first of all, are you scandalized that elves get paid less?
- [25:35]
A
I am, but I'm not surprised. And by the way, I think regarding the grammar there, it should probably be santi clause, but whatever. As a budding Latin scholar, I am not surprised, but I am scandalized. Why is it that the elves who do equal work, do they? Do they? Do they work extremely hard? Santa Claus gets to mostly sit still and the elves work their rear ends off. And why is it that they should get paid less? And I wonder what Karl Marx would say about that. And I wouldn't Be surprised if there is a scholar of some kind who has written a study of the wage structure in Santa Claus land.
- [26:27]
B
See Yossi speaking myself as the gray bearded eminence who takes all the credit for everybody else's labours. I feel I have a vested interest in this. But what do you think?
- [26:39]
D
First of all, I was very disappointed to see generally the salaries they are getting because I always thought that every.
- [26:45]
B
I think it's too much.
- [26:46]
D
No, no. I think every academic should have a plan B. And definitely this is not going to be now my plan B.
- [26:53]
B
Had you been thinking about it?
- [26:54]
D
I mean, there are all sorts of possibilities. You have to keep your option open. But I mean, it's too little. And also if, remember it's very seasonal.
- [27:02]
A
You should become an Airbnb host.
- [27:04]
D
Yeah. Maybe this I make more money. You know, for sure it's. You can do it only for six weeks or how much? You can't live then what are you going to do? There is nothing special in Easter. Also celebration.
- [27:16]
B
You could be an Easter bunny at Easter.
- [27:19]
D
Yeah. That's how much.
- [27:20]
B
That's another couple of weeks.
- [27:21]
D
Do you know how much they pay to be in Easter?
- [27:23]
B
Off the top of my head, no.
- [27:25]
D
So that's mine. They might even paid less because they're smaller than, than Father Christmas. But you know, you think about CSV.
- [27:32]
A
That'S the Easter bunny. Get tips though, I suspect no, in that case it's even worse.
- [27:38]
B
Does Father Christmas get tips in America? I am absolutely unclear as to what the tipping etiquette is for Father Christmas.
- [27:45]
D
Yeah, I think we need some more research into this because this is a serious issue that we need actually in depth. For instance, is it like waiting in a restaurant? And you can, I don't know, you get 10% of water. 12% of what? But it seems to be, A, the inequality is unacceptable and, and, and, and B, they are lowly paid that it should be paid more than this. They bring happiness.
- [28:07]
B
Elizabeth, would you do this for 15 quid an hour? And I'm sure in your like zany, liberal Scandinavian utopia, there are female Santa Clauses. So it's probably, it's probably an option. Would you do this for £15 an hour? I'm, I'm gonna say I'm gonna want to see a zero on the end of that 15 before I even think about it.
- [28:26]
A
I think I would probably rather work in a restaurant now that hopefully restaurant workers will get minimum wage and a bit more than that. And I think minimum wage is probably more than. Is it £15 by now? Anyway, you need experience to be a Santa Claus and to work in the restaurant. You can start from scratch. So I think no Santa Claus for me.
- [28:54]
B
Well, on that somewhat Scrooge like note, Elizabeth Broh and Yossi Meckelburg, thanks both for joining us. Finally on today's show, our weekly letter from is going to Sydney from Magdeburg.
- [29:10]
E
A year has now passed since the crowds lining up for Gluhwein Diepvreitlangos and Gabrante Mandolin at the Christmas market in Magdeburg, Germany were replaced by police tape, boarded up stalls and candle lit vigils. It was on the evening of 20th December 2024 that a man driving a rented BMW accelerated into the crowded celebration in the city centre, killing six people and injuring more than 300. The city went into shock. The carousel stood still. Christmas was all but cancelled. When I arrived in town shortly after the attack, the streets were deserted and the market bestrewn with the detritus of disaster. The only people I could find were huddled outside church doors, standing solemnly and shaking in the winter wind like the flowers laid at their feet. This year the markets are back on. And from here it's hard not to think of my hometown, Sydney.
- [30:06]
B
We close our eyes as we pray.
- [30:10]
E
For the families across the globe in what must seem like a summer fever dream, my fellow Sydneysiders are reeling from a terrorist attack targeting a Hanukkah event at Bondi beach that claimed the lives of 15 people. The shock will eventually subside, but what follows is the slow, painstaking work of restoring order judicially, culturally and socially to a city shot through with violent chaos. Unlike Australia, which has little in the way of history when it comes to terrorist attacks on its own soil, Germany has been here before. In 2016, an Islamist attacker killed 13 people when he drove a stolen truck into a Christmas market in Berlin. And just this past weekend, German police arrested five men for planning to attack a Christmas market in southern Bavaria. Still, nobody expected the terror to arrive at a mid sized city like Magdeburg that last found itself in international headlines in the 10th century when holy Roman Emperor Otto the Great chose it to be his imperial centre. This year's markets feature a strong security presence with a combination of concrete barriers and heavily armed police surrounding the event. But much like the glow of Christmas lights punctuating the shadow of last year's tragedy, Magdeburghers are embracing a defiant spirit. Nevertheless, the shadow is close at hand.
- [31:31]
C
In early November, the men accused of carrying out last year's attack went on trial due to the sheer number of victims. A temporary courthouse has been erected at Heerekoa Platz in the city's east. A gallery with seating for up to 450 is available for the hundreds of plaintiffs, while a further public gallery, separated by another glass partition, is supplied with a live stream broadcast at the building's unveiling. Justice Minister Franziska Waitinger said that it's about giving the huge number of victims a chance to participate. We owe that to the victims of the attack, she said. The fact that Magdeburg's Christmas market is back underway across the River Elbe while the trial continues is a sign that justice, along with Gluvine, is already being served A year on Magdeburg is a city living in two emotional seasons simultaneously. It is serious, reflective, legally meticulous, and it is also determinably alive, responsive to life's slings and arrows. Among the wooden stalls, steam from many cups of hot spice wine rise in unison through the cold air. The feeling might be somewhat subdued, but there's still bratwurst, imbrot Santa sightings and my personal favourite, Quark barschen, deliciously sugar dusted doughnut balls made using Quark.
- [32:45]
E
The markets are open and so the people come.
- [32:48]
C
They walk along the River Elbe, through the Romanesque cloisters and past the Gothic cathedral whose stones have seen sacking fires, plagues and rebuildings before. The people of Magdeburg are not letting fear and hatred hollow out their community spirit. From here it's possible to imagine what Sydney might look like a year from now. I'd like to think that we'd see a city similarly defiant in the face of terror and anti Semitism, comfortable enough in itself to come down to that fatal shore in droves, as they have been doing already, to grieve and give blood. Then, as long swells beat in from the horizon and the sun slouches westward, Sydneysiders will gather on the beach or paddle out beyond the breakers to remember the brave and the lost and to restore order from confusion, not through rhetoric, prevarication or forgetting, but through justice, ritual and coming together.
- [33:41]
E
For Monocle Radio, I'm Blake Mat.
- [33:55]
B
Thanks, Blake, and that is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks also to our panelists today, Elizabeth Brough and Yossi Mekelberg. Today's show was produced by Monica Lillis and researched by Joanna Moser. Our sound engineer was Steph Chungu. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [34:20]
D
Sam.