Why it’s up to Pakistan to keep US-Iran peace talks on track

Summary

The Monocle Daily – Episode Summary

Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Andrew Muller
Guests: Tessa Shishkovitz (UK Correspondent, Falta) & Yossi Mekelberg (Senior Consulting Fellow, Chatham House)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Monocle Daily centers on Pakistan's potential as a mediator in US-Iran peace talks, the political dynamics around Marco Rubio's address to Cubans, European Union's approach to Ukraine's membership, and cultural observations about queue-skipping in Japan. The panel delivers sharp insights into international politics and society, interweaving current affairs with lighter moments and personal anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pakistan’s Mediation in US-Iran Peace Talks

• Pakistan’s Army Chief in Tehran: Local media reports that Field Marshal Asim Munir is en route to Tehran to discuss a temporary yet concrete ceasefire between Iran and the US, potentially reopening the Strait of Hormuz and ending the US Navy’s blockade. Pakistan's Interior Minister is reportedly already in Tehran.
  (04:31)

• The Plausibility and Challenges:

  • Yossi Mekelberg notes that:

    “A mediator can be better than their rival sides if they decide to really dig their heels about certain things... there are some key questions—it's very difficult to know who you negotiate in Tehran right now.” (05:30)

  • Both sides—US and Iran—are described as stubborn, convinced of their own victories, and likely unwilling to make substantial concessions.
  • The structure of Iran's power makes negotiations opaque; with multiple factions and the Supreme Leader injured and absent, it’s “so much more difficult to negotiate because you are not so sure who calls the shots.” (06:42)

• Iran’s Calculus and Strategic Upper Hand:

  • Tessa Shishkovitz points out the regime’s intransigence:

    “We actually heard this afternoon from Khamenei, who issued a directive that the grade uranium has to stay in the country… they are at least pretending that he’s functioning.” (08:25)

  • Iran feels emboldened as it holds leverage over the global economy by “having one hand on the brake.”
  • Netanyahu in Israel is flagged as the only major actor interested in intensifying conflict, tied to his own political survival and upcoming elections.
  • The specter of “super losers,”—world leaders who have lost major conflicts but retain dangerous power—is discussed.

    “If these super losers, who have a finger on nuclear weapons, that's a really, really threatening thought also.” (09:02)

• Israel’s Position in the Talks:

  • Yossi notes:

    “He [Netanyahu] needs to keep at least one front going with an election coming... In addition, he won’t go against the will of Trump... But what you see in the Israeli papers is that they expect it to happen every day.” (10:53)

2. EU’s Proposed ‘Associate Membership’ for Ukraine

• Germany’s Proposal and Political Calculus:

  • Chancellor Friedrich Merz floats “associate membership” for Ukraine, granting privileges but no voting rights and some security guarantees (referencing EU’s Article 42.7, similar to NATO’s Article 5). (12:15)
  • Tessa believes it’s “a big step” for symbolism, if not substance, signaling to Russia and Ukraine where Europe stands.
  • The approach could set a precedent impacting western Balkan countries waiting for accession—a possible source of new friction.

• Layered Integration and Enlargement Complexities:

  • Yossi observes that the EU is skilled at “procrastination” and likely benefits from the non-committal nature of associate status, which reassures Ukraine but delays full integration.

    “No one is better than EU on procrastination. They can procrastinate forever.” (15:00)

  • Tessa counters that the new EU trend is toward “systematic sectorial integration,” allowing countries to integrate chapter by chapter.

• Recipient Readiness and Club Cohesion:

  • The conversation centers on the tension between widening the EU and deepening it. Tessa stresses:

    “If a country meets the standards then they are eligible for membership. And that's the main point.” (17:28)

3. US Politics and Cuba: The Raul Castro Indictment

• Theatrical Charge or Real Threat?

  • The US has indicted Raul Castro, former Cuban president, as a symbolic pressure tactic.

    “He’s 94 years old. We are talking about an incident that took place 30 years ago. So it’s kind of to ratchet the pressure on Castro.” — Yossi (19:14)

  • US policy towards Cuba is depicted as “an obsession” rather than rational foreign policy, driven by Florida’s electoral politics.

• Rubio's Address and the Power of the Cuban Diaspora:

  • Marco Rubio, US Secretary of State of Cuban descent, delivers a speech interpreted as both promise and threat.

    “From media to entertainment, from the private sector to politics, from music to sports, Cubans have reached the top of virtually all industries in all countries except one—Cuba.” — Rubio, quoted at (20:56)

  • Tessa notes a surprisingly high percentage of Cubans (56%) within Cuba would support a military intervention, hinting at the regime’s domestic unpopularity.

• US Ambitions:

  • Andrew proposes a theory that Trump desires to make Cuba a US possession, aiming for “another star on the flag.”

    “He is absolutely hell bent on becoming the first president since the 1950s to expand the territory of the United States. He wants to add another star to the flag. And I think he thinks Cuba might be it.” (23:04)

  • Yossi recounts the long US history of intervention attempts, favoring “organic” internal change as pioneered by Obama's normalization efforts.

4. Japan’s ‘Taipa’ Industry: Paying to Skip Queues

• Practical and Cultural Observations:

  • A new app allows Japanese diners and tourists to pay extra to skip queues at restaurants and food stands—a practice known as ‘taipa’ or 'time performance.’

    “Absolutely, I've always been interested in skipping lines wherever I could...” — Tessa (26:01)

  • Yossi jokes it’s “the most un-British thing” and describes the cultural importance of queuing in the UK and Japan.
  • The system is framed as appealing to busy locals and tourists eager to maximize time, but also critiqued as potentially elitist and more expensive.

• Lifehacks and Social Commentary:

  • The panel riffs on technological solutions for queue management—such as apps alerting users when their spot is ready—but debate whether these conveniences really enhance life.

    “More fun or just more complicated and annoying.” — Andrew (28:20) “More expensive.” — Yossi (28:25)

• Memorable Moments:

  • Longest voluntary queue experiences:
    • Yossi: 25 minutes for pizza in Naples—eschewing a notorious four hour queue.
    • Tessa: Seven hours for Wimbledon tickets, which she found rewarding despite not being a tennis superfan.

      “Seven hours queuing in the line for Wimbledon... was actually a real test of my patience. But it was also rewarding...” (29:32)

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Notable Quotes

• On Iran’s Nuclear Stance:
  “We are basically having the upper hand here. We are not giving you our uranium, and we are not opening the Strait of Hormuz without you officially declaring that you're backing off.” — Tessa Shishkovitz (09:02)

• On US-Cuba Policy:
  “Cuba is not a foreign policy in the United States. A, it's an obsession. B, it's Florida. And the pressure because of... You need Florida, midterm election, presidential election. There is no logic in the policy towards Cuba.” — Yossi Mekelberg (19:14)

• On EU Enlargement:
  “If a country meets the standards, then they are eligible for membership. And that's the main point.” — Tessa Shishkovitz (17:28)
  “No one is better than EU on procrastination. They can procrastinate forever.” — Yossi Mekelberg (15:00)

• On Queue-Skipping in Japan:
  “Absolutely, I've always been interested in skipping lines wherever I could, either by sort of, you know, sneaking in...” — Tessa Shishkovitz (26:01)

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Segment Timestamps

• Pakistan as US-Iran Mediator: 04:31–11:36
• EU, Ukraine, and Associate Membership: 11:36–18:11
• Cuba, the US, and Raúl Castro: 18:11–25:15
• Japan’s ‘Taipa’ (Queue Skipping) & Cultural Reflections: 25:15–30:39
• Panel’s Personal Queue Stories: 28:38–30:14

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Memorable Moment

• Wimbledon Queue Anecdote (29:32):
  “I've been seven hours queuing in the line for Wimbledon to get a ticket last summer… really nice to sit with everyone so excited and already pre-partying at 6 o'clock in the morning…” — Tessa Shishkovitz

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This episode blends incisive geopolitical discussion with moments of levity and cultural commentary, offering listeners a nuanced look at today's world—from volatile hotspots to everyday life hacks—through the distinctive, cosmopolitan voice of the Monocle Daily team.

Transcript

[Andrew Muller]

You're listening to the Monocle Daily, first broadcast on 21 May 2026 on Monocle Radio.

Is Pakistan on the verge of forging peace between the United States and Iran? Was Marco Rubio's address to Cubans an offer or a threat? And how much would you pay to jump a queue? I'm Andrew Muller. The Monocle Daily starts. Hello and welcome to the Monocle Daily. Coming to you from our studios here at Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Muller. My guests Tessa Shishkovitz and Yossi Meckelberg will discuss the day's big stories. And our weekly letter from has a Japanese stamp on it. Stay tuned. All that and more coming up right here on the Monocle Daily. This is the Monocle Daily. I'm Andrew Muller and I'm joined today by Tessa Kishkowitz, UK correspondent for Austrian weekly magazine Falta, author of Ekta Britain and Brexit. And boy, hasn't that decade flown by. And Yossi Meckelberg, senior consulting fellow at the Middle East North Africa program at Chatham House. Hello to you both.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Hello.

[Andrew Muller]

Good evening Tessa. First of all, you are just back from Philadelphia which is a delightful city though I have not been there for ages. What were you doing in Philadelphia?

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

So we went for the graduation of my baby son who is now 21 and just graduated from.

[Andrew Muller]

Congratulations to him and indeed to you.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

And. And so we spent four days of eating in Philadelphia's best restaurants and it was delightful because there are many plentiful global so we picked continent, you know, kitchen wise every day and, and enjoyed our time and, and of course the whole town was full with graduating students and their families and everyone was happy and it was very hot and summerly and you wouldn't even think that you are in a country where democracy is threatened by government.

[Andrew Muller]

Did you do all the fantastic American history nerd stuff that is available in Philadelphia? Because I've done all that and it's really brilliantly done.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

It's absolutely lovely and I always liked Independence hall and also the museums are excellent but I've done that in previous years because I've been involvement of altogether I think 10 years with Philadelphia, having two children going to college there.

[Andrew Muller]

Yossi, meanwhile you haven't been anywhere because all your trips keep getting cancelled because of what we will refer to as events.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Yes, serious events. First, congratulations on graduation. I think as someone that been so many graduation just part of my job. It's always the best time of the year to see the happy families, the graduates and so want to Introduce the lecturers to their parents. So it's always, yeah, it's a great time.

[Andrew Muller]

But you have been on a walk with several dogs.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Yes. So this is.

[Andrew Muller]

We're grasping here, but let's go with it.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

So, as you know, we have a Shiba Inu dog.

[Andrew Muller]

I do know that. I've met it and everything.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Yes. And. And there is some kind of a sense that those who own is the Shibas are special and those who own the dogs, they feel themselves very special because, you know, they say about shiba that they are closest dogs to cats in their. In their behavior.

[Andrew Muller]

I can see that.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

And so once a month there is a Shiba walk. There are actually two of them rival, but you can join either of them.

[Andrew Muller]

Are you with the official or provisional Shiba Inu walk?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Yeah, the provisional Shiba Inu. I love it. And so it's. One is in the Hyde park and one reaches. So if you want to see like 20 Shibas, they come. It sounds a little bit like a DIY store. They come in three colors, so you can have it in the black and tan white or the kind of the reddish one. And you see them. And the thing that won't surprise you, 99% of them will be on the lead. Because if you release a Shiba, you have good chances. Carnage and never back. In one case, the poor deer in Richmond park ran very quickly.

[Andrew Muller]

Who can forget Fenton?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Exactly. And the poor Honoran after the Sheba and the deer for half an hour.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, regrettably, that's probably about as cute as tonight's show's. Tonight's show, rather, is going to get. We will start in Pakistan, where local media is reporting that Pakistan's Chief of army, Field Marshal Asim Munir, is on his way to Tehran. He is apparently due to speak to whoever is presently running Iran with a view to selling them on a temporary but solid ceasefire, which might serve as the basis for direct talks between Iran and its American and or Israeli antagonists. Pakistan's Interior Minister Mohsin Naqvi is believed to be in Tehran already. The agreement under discussion is said to include a reopening by Iran of the Strait of Hormuz, an end by the US Navy to its blockade of Iranian ports, and talks on Iran's nuclear program to start within the next 90 days. Yossi, first of all, does this all sound plausible, like something that might happen? I mean, Field Marshal Munir is a busy man. I doubt he's gone to Tehran.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

If.

[Andrew Muller]

If he thinks he's going to have his time Wasted. Do we expect something might come of this?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

It might happen. But a mediator can be better than their rival sides if they decide to really dig their heels about certain things. And you have two very stubborn sides. Both of them believe that they won the war, both of them believe that they can sustain it for quite some time, and they won't give much away. And I mean, one of the things is that one of the core issues right now is to allow to open the Strait of Hormuz without tariffs. But that's exactly where we were two, three months ago. So we basically quarreling about something that was there for many, many years or always. Now that's the question. And there are some key question that it's very difficult to know who you negotiate in Tehran right now. There is no regime change.

[Andrew Muller]

We're told that Naqvi has been meeting with President Massoud Pezeshkian. But it's also never entirely clear how much say the President of Iran has and IRGC commanders. No one's talking about the actual Supreme Leader, interestingly.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

But for what, at least I hear the consulting. He's not shown in public since the beginning of the war. He's probably injured, but he's consulted. But the question is, for instance, the Revolutionary Guard, they're very much involved in all of that and probably being emboldened by the war because of the system, the way that it's diffused in Iran, in a way, it makes it more resilient, so you hurt one, but the other still prevail. On the other hand, it makes it so much more difficult to negotiate because you are not so sure who caused the shots, so to speak. Now, the issue of Hormuz, of the enriched uranium, of the ballistic missiles, of supporting proxies still on the table, the one thing that I think in the west we under appreciate, I think the Iranians understand our weaknesses more than we understand their strength. And we fight this asymmetry war because we think the military force will do everything. But actually we are, as we could see, more vulnerable than the Iranian.

[Andrew Muller]

But on that thought, Tessa, is there a reason why, if you are Iran now, you would agree to any kind of ceasefire? Because, as Yossi suggests, they do think they have the upper hand. They have obviously incurred quite significant losses, not least the former Supreme Leader and quite a lot of their former high command. There's been at least 3,000 reported Iranian casualties, though it's hard to imagine the Iranian leadership cares too much about that. And they have lost a lot of military kit. But what they now know they have is one hand on the brake of the global economy.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is also the reason why we actually heard this afternoon from Khamenei, who issued a directive that the grade uranium has to stay in the country. So that on a day when everyone is hoping that some kind of good news out of these negotiations are reaching the world, he's certainly digging in. And I don't know if he can, if he's functioning, but this is his directive, so they are at least pretending that he's functioning. And I heard a very interesting substack post today by Tim Snyder, the professor who has left the US Fleeing fascism. He made a very good point on saying that we are in the era now of the super losers. So Trump has basically lost this war in Iran and Putin is losing the war in the Ukraine, and they are certainly not winning it. And if these super losers who have a finger on nuclear weapons, that's a really, really threatening thought also. So Iran is thinking, okay, gu, we are basically having the upper hand here. We are not giving you our uranium, and we are not opening the Strait of Hormuz without you officially declaring that you're backing off. And that's the situation that we are in. So the only one who really, really wants to have an escalation of this war is probably Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel, because he's facing elections and he would like to have an ongoing war scenario where he's being seen as someone who can actually do something that makes headlines. And so that's a reason why he and Trump seem to have pretty heated telephone discussions in the last days. And if I would be Trump, I would also not test now further losing military in the region without achieving anything because the opinion polls are turning totally against him. So the real interest is in Netanyahu and not so much in Iran and US and that's why I'm not sure that this attack on Friday, the usual day for attacks, will actually happen, even if the negotiations don't produce any good results.

[Andrew Muller]

Just finally and quickly on this one, Yossi, as Tessa brings up the subject of Israel, they obviously will feel that they do get a say in this. Is that right? Does Netanyahu want this to continue, or does he kind of think he's made his point at this stage?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Two things about it, and quickly. One, I think I agree with Tesla. He needs to keep at least one front going with an election coming and possibly, who knows, even postponing the election, but at least to make sure that it's ongoing. And he's the defender. But in addition to this, he won't go against the will of Trump because even Netanyahu understands this is too dangerous to do so. He will have someone to find out if he can convince Trump to resume the war. What you see in the Israeli papers is that they expect it to happen every day, the kind of the expectation that it's going to be resumed. So maybe they know something.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, to Germany now, whose Chancellor Friedrich Merz, remains catastrophically unpopular with Germans, but may have kicked his approval ratings in Ukraine up a few notches. Merz has proposed creating for Ukraine an associate membership of the European Union as a means of firming up Ukraine's path to membership, while acknowledging that what with one thing and another, the process will likely be neither swift nor straightforward. Associate status, as Merz sees it, would grant Ukraine access to, though not voting rights in the European Council, Commission and parliament. And interestingly, EU security guarantees. Tessa, is this a good idea?

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

That depends where you stand. I think in principle it's a good idea because this now Already famous article

[Andrew Muller]

42.7, this is the security guarantee.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

That's the security guarantee that is granted to. It's a little bit comparable to the NATO Article 5, that if one member is attacked the other it can ask for help from the other members. In EU terms, of course, that doesn't mean necessarily much, but it is sort of symbolically a big step to say to Zelensky, we would like to offer you this, because in any case, what EU is doing now is supporting Ukraine as much as they can. Now, it depends if this whole plot comes to fruition is unclear, but with the departure of Viktor Orban, the whole scale of support for Ukraine has changed. So the new Prime Minister Madya still has to decide on a few things that he has to decide in terms for the internal gallery about the Hungarian minority in the Ukraine. If Zelensky blinks in a nice way, they can all go ahead and basically Hungary will be in a camp in the European Union to support the Ukraine with much clearer measures than up till now where it has obstructed every movement. And of course one thing is to support the Ukraine and develop further a kind of multi layered aid program for the Ukraine if it's financially or in this case diplomatically. But of course it has repercussions on the western Balkans where there are five countries waiting for accession to the European Union. And that's a little bit tricky for a lot of the now member states like Austria, for example, who would of course like to see countries in the western Balkan to be members in the European Union. Before you take in a problematic and complicated and big state like the Ukraine.

[Andrew Muller]

Is there a possibility that all said, Yossi, that Mertz has done the thing, which he does have kind of a talent for, in coming up with the idea that pleases nobody, because Ukraine still insists that it wants and deserves fast track accession to the European Union. I can well imagine, as Tessa suggests, that those countries in the western Balkans who have been waiting a terribly long time might get miffed by Ukraine being moved up the queue and or still might also suspect that the idea of associate membership is going to be a trap, that it's just a kind of waiting room that you can keep people in forever. So they can't quite come in, but they can't quite leave either.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

I think first of all, Merz got what he wanted, he got the headline. So, you know, I suggest it while it goes through all the processes of accession, the European Union anyway, it can take very long time even if you try to fast track it. He got the kind of headline that he wanted. We all talk about it and from his point of view, that's fine if it happened. The other thing. There has always been an issue in the European Union, or at least since the end of the Cold War. Do you go wider or do you go deeper? Do you go and almost accept. Everyone wants to be part of the club. It's less an exclusive club, but we welcome, we set criteria. You have to go through all of this. And then we saw it also with Bulgaria and Romania. Then they changed a little bit the routes. It was not exactly the same routes for other countries then it took, you know, few years to become full members. They can do the same things with, with Ukraine. And on the declarative, we make a point here that Ukraine is part of Europe, send a message to Russia that it's part of, of, of Europe and that's the trajectory of Europe as the practicality of it. No one is better than EU on procrastination. They can procrastinate forever.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Can I slightly disagree on this point? Because I think what we are entering now in the European Union is also a period where you have a lot of layers and different movements in different ways. So like the UK can be brought in, in many ways into European Union matters without them actually sort of joining all this immediately. And similar approach is happening now with the West Balkan and also the Ukraine, where people would like to see more what they call systematic sectorial integration, which means, as you know, you cannot join immediately but in principle you can sort of work chapter by chapter and coming up to the standards of the European Union. And in the end this is the only thing that matters. It's not so much the question if the European Union as such, Brussels, the institutions and the member states say we want you or we don't want you in. If a country meets the standards then they are eligible for membership. And that's the main point. So if the Ukraine would say like have a really speedy approach, anti corruption and pro democracy, it would be a very good thing. It would bring them closer and eventually there could be a decision. As long as a state like Serbia is like led by a leader that authoritarian, they will not probably reach this level. And so we have to look at it like this also. We have to hand also the, the strength to these candidates to say like work on it and we will have an open door for you.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

But here they say that there is a snapback. You know part of this what Mercer is about a snapback that in case you break for instance the rule of law. But again this goes back to my. I agree with you actually is that the minute that it was more important for Europe to become bigger then actually more cohesive and make sure that everyone is part of it. I think this is the result of different tracks altogether.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, to Cuba now, where yesterday May 20 was Independence Day of a sort, the anniversary of the foundation of the First Republic of Cuba in 1902 following a three year US military occupation which followed a nearly four century Spanish conquest. The United States observed it by indicting one of the founders of the more recent Republic of Cuba, former President Raul Castro, 94 year old younger brother of the obvious. The Cuban people were also addressed in Spanish by Cuban American Secretary of State Marco Rubio who depending on one's perspective, promised or threatened a new relationship with the United States. Cuba is currently enduring constant blackouts due to the drying up of oil from Venezuela and a blockade by the United States. Yossi first of all, the indictment of President Raul Castro is that we have to wonder following what happened to Nicolas Maduro, is this pure theater by the United States or is someone in a room somewhere in the Pentagon currently drawing up a plan to go and get him?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Unfortunately it might be both and I think going back to performative politics, it's everything. He's 94 years old. We are talking about an incident that took place 30 years ago. So it's kind of to ratchet the pressure on Castro. I was actually supervising a student from Cuba right now for his Dissertation. And we counted that since Fidel and Raul came to power, there were 13American presidents. And this upsets them because despite assassination and the sanctions since Eisenhower and so on and so forth, the Castros are still there. And the only way to operate in the United States is more pressure, more sanctions, more misery in Cuba. While I would argue that it could take completely the opposite direction and Cuba would have been a very different island for a long, long time ago, definitely since the end of the Cold War. But Cuba is not a foreign policy in the United States. A, it's an obsession. B, it's Florida. And the pressure because of. You need Florida, midterm election, presidential election. There is no logic in the policy towards Cuba. Definitely not from the end of the Cold War. So this is another try to put more pressure on Cuba. What I really think is to reach. They want to reach an agreement in which will give. Basically, it's almost. In a strange way, you mentioned 1902. 1902 also came with the Platt Amendment, which basically Cuba gave much of its independence until 1937 due to the Platt Amendment. That's what they are trying to do.

[Andrew Muller]

Tessa. Part of what US Secretary of State Marco Rubio said to the Cuban people, though it's unclear how many of the Cuban people were actually minded to pay much attention to him, he did say today, from media to entertainment, from the private sector to politics, from music to sports, Cubans have reached the top of virtually all industries in all countries except one Cuba. See, but he wasn't actually wrong about that, was he? I mean, it's. You don't necessarily have to be a sort of neocon headbanger to take the view that, as Yossi suggested, there's an extremely alternative and much better recent history Cuba could have had were it not for the Castros.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

No, absolutely. I agree with you both and everyone on this. And I think also the Cuban population does. I mean, you don't know if there's no free opinion polls, but in the New York Times today, they quoted one recent survey by a Cuban news website, I don't know. They said 40,000 answers gathered and 56% of Cubans who reside in Cuba say they would support the military intervention. And of course, in Florida or outside, 70%, I think there is a moment where this regime should go because it is not very healthy for its population for many, many years already. The question is, who could replace it if there is no military intervention, which could be one military intervention too much. I mean, if I would be Trump, I would think about it. It's not likely that it would go as smoothly as in Venezuela to put someone else of the regime into place. What I also read today is that the Trump administration is thinking about Raul Castro's grandson to take over. He's also called Rodriguez, like the one in Venezuela. So everyone's Rodriguez takes over. But if that's also true, I mean, how does that look for a democratically elected president of the United States to then in the end bring down a regime by putting in the grandson?

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, I would consider.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Or the sun, by the way.

[Andrew Muller]

Yeah. I would consider it a result if they didn't appoint Governor Eric Trump. On which subject you'll see it's clear what's driving this from Rubio. And he does seem to be the person in the administration making the running here. For him, it's both political and personal. He's the child of Cuban refugees. But I genuinely think, listening to President Trump, and this is where I insert my own potted theory into the discussion, he is absolutely hell bent on becoming the first president since the 1950s to expand the territory of the United States. He wants to add another star to the flag. And I think he thinks Cuba might be it.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Yeah. And again, if you look at the history of the relation between us and Cuba, twice they tried to purchase it, one day invaded it, and then imposed the Platt Amendment. I think with Rubio, I think for the benefit of the listeners, his parents left before the revolution, actually the flats from Batista, not from Castro. They left in 56. This is true before the revolution. So, I mean, it's not very convenient for Rubio. But this is, this is actually the reality. Yes, there is always the real Cuba is different from almost any other country because they had the idea, I think it was Jefferson that actually said it, that eventually Cuba would gravitate towards the United States. So the idea, if not physically, politically, so always has been seen some sort of the United States. So it might be this way. I would again argue what Obama started doing in 2016, when he visited in March of 2016, sadly, very late into his presidency, should have done it much earlier. This was the right trajectory of opening up. Then the changes will take place organically. Cuban won't change there. They don't want to leave. But no, there is also a lot of wonderful things in Cuba beyond this is how to move, to actually harness what's good there in order to create these organic changes. But then Trump came, of course, in 2016 or 2017 and impose the sanctions again.

[Andrew Muller]

Well, to Japan now and to what it Says here is a burgeoning industry in what is known as taipa, or time performance. The practical manifestations of same are such systems as suisui, through which customers may pay extra to skip the queues, which tend to snake around the block from especially popular food stands or restaurants. Charges vary according to waiting times and custom is limited to prevent things getting completely out of hand. I. E. Those wealthy enough to buy their way around queues getting suspended from lampposts by their underpants, by those not apologists for the system say it helps out busy local folk and foreign tourists. The remedy of just hiring enough goddamn staff to serve demand seems to have been dismissed as unsophisticated. Tessa, would you be interested in this?

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Absolutely. I've always been interested in skipping lines wherever I could, either by sort of, you know, sneaking in.

[Andrew Muller]

How much would you pay to avoid standing?

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Well, if you. If you really. Let's put it like this. I think they are trying also to make it easier for tourists and if I would be a tourist in Japan, but I think that's a little bit an unnecessary thing to do. What is really useful is if, for example, you are a young mother who is on a work schedule and you have to go and fit this all into your day, and then you have the option to pay a little bit more to skip the line and get your food out.

[Andrew Muller]

Is there not? I put to you, Yossi, the obvious remedy of just going somewhere where there isn't a queue.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

First of all, it's the most un British things I ever did in my life. It is, yeah, country that a queue is a value. I think you deliberately look for a place with a queue in order to practice and exercise the right to queue. That's one thing. I spent only a few days in Japan. Some of the restaurants are so tiny and you really queue. It's like seven seats. A restaurant and you wait. So I understand why they do it in Japan. I probably won't do that. I think, yes, go to another restaurant. It's funny because we are a group. We went for a workshop and we thought, oh, we are a group of 12 people. We'll go and eat together. We had to split to two and we couldn't. So it's a very Japanese thing because of the size of the restaurant. But paying for. It's like speedy boarding, you know.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Yeah, but why not? You know, if you want to be the first one off the plane, you do speedy boarding. You pay a little bit more and you still. I mean, it's not a problem. And you Have.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

But the airplane lands at the same time. For those with the speedy boarding, it

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

gives you five minutes ahead of just to be faster out of the airport.

[Andrew Muller]

Now, as a general principle, see, I just will not stand in line to spend my own money. If somebody wants my money, they should make it convenient for me to spend it.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Yeah. But it's also that all these apps and all these options that you have now which are connected to this service is, for example, you take a number and then they sort of ping you on the app when it's your time in the line in front and all these kind of things. These are all part of a few nice gadgets that make our life faster

[Andrew Muller]

and more fun or just more complicated and annoying.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

No, no, no.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

More expensive.

[Andrew Muller]

More expensive.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

If you want to get the really, really good sushi place in this shopping mall and they have this service, well,

[Yossi Mekelberg]

the sushi is good in Japan.

[Andrew Muller]

I'm going to go ahead and argue.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

Guys, let's be a little bit elitist.

[Andrew Muller]

Foodie, not underserved by sushi restaurants. Final question on this. What is the longest? I'll ask you first, Yossi, as far as you, you can recall, you have. Because we've all ended up standing in line or waiting around for things that we just had to deal with. Right. Whether you're queuing to check, cross a border or whatever, that doesn't count. What is the longest time you've ever spent in a queue voluntarily?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Naples, the best pizza in the world.

[Andrew Muller]

Okay. How long did you queue up for pizza?

[Yossi Mekelberg]

So there are two options. The four hours option for a takeaway pizza, which I thought, I'm not doing this, but it's regarded as the best pizza ever. And then opposite.

[Andrew Muller]

The medium pizza in Naples will be fast.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

So we went to opposite. Great. Four floors of Pizza Heaven. 25 minutes.

[Andrew Muller]

Okay, 25 minutes I could stay.

[Yossi Mekelberg]

That's the longest I ever had.

[Andrew Muller]

I can wait 25 minutes for a pizza. Tessa.

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

I'm with you, Andrew, on this. Four hours wait for food wouldn't be for me, but I've been seven hours queuing in the line for Wimbledon to get a ticket last summer. And that was actually a real test of my patience. But it was also rewarding because that was really nice to sit with everyone so excited and already pre partying at six o' clock in the morning to wait until the game.

[Andrew Muller]

Speaking as somebody who would actually stand in line for seven hours to not watch tennis, did you actually enjoy it once you got there or was it all about the waiting?

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

It was about, I mean, My story was about the waiting, so I really sort of digged into this whole thing in every detail. But then I really enjoyed also being inside and watching all these games.

[Andrew Muller]

Tessa Kishkovitz and Yossi Mekelberg, thank you both for joining us. Finally, on today's show, it's time for our letter from we turn to tall stories where Julia Kim rides the Hokusai Special Train, new journey aimed at foreign tourists once they've finished buying their way past restaurant queues to take in breathtaking views of Mount Fuji.

There's a reason why Mount Fuji is venerated by the Japanese. From its conical base to its flat, snow capped peak, its lines are so harmonious it almost evokes the divine. Veneration also implies a good dose of fear, though, and Fujisan, as it's called here, certainly inspires that too. As well as being the country's highest mountain, it is also its most active volcano. But today, the real fear visitors like myself have is not seeing it at all. I'm at Mishima train station, southwest of the Tokyo it's mid morning on a Thursday, but Fuji San, as the Japanese call it, is swaddled in haze and intent on living up to its reputation as a bashful peak. The train I'm about to board is delightfully retro, a three car locomotive that looks more like a longer, leaner trolley tram. It's called the Hokusai Special Train, named after the renowned Japanese artist Katsushika Hokusai, his famous woodblock print series. The 36 views of Mount Fuji are pasted on the walls and hang from the ceiling of the train. Among these landscapes is the ubiquitous Great Wave, which graces every 1,000 yen banknote in Japan. On a clear day you can get a clean shot of some of the same vistas captured by Hokusai himself nearly two centuries ago. But the opaque clouds are thickening by the second, and as we pull out of the station, the first droplets of rain appear on the panoramic windows. I peer desperately outside, wondering how many others have come before me. How many generations of Gorkas, including Hokusai, squinted through the mist for a glimpse of glimpse of Mount Fuji. Not only is it Japan's foremost natural attraction, it's an object of worship, a muse that's captivated artists as far as Europe and triggered the Japonisme aesthetic in the 1800s. In 2013 it became a UNESCO World Heritage Site

[Tessa Shishkovitz]

attracts people around the world wide.

[Andrew Muller]

Learning all of this during the ride only whets my appetite to see it, but the intensifying drizzle dampens all hope. On a day like today, you make do with a pop quiz delivered by the tour guide in English. It's an informative and not unwelcome distraction as I soak up these nuggets about the great artist. The train is soaked by rain, stubborn fog blankets us, and for the entire journey the 36 views of Mount Fuji are reduced to 50 shades of grey. Those in the know say the odds are one in three that Fuji sun makes an appearance, which might explain why the train only runs three days a week. Sunrise Tours, which operates the service in conjunction with Central Japan Railways, has been making the gamble since this spring, betting on the great wave of inbound tourists. When we stop at our destination, Fujinomiya. I commiserate with the other tour goers, but we agree that we will probably roll the dice again for the chance to gaze upon the serene grandeur of Japan's sacred mountain.

Julia Kim with that report. Thank you for that. And that is all for this edition of the Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelists today, Tessa Shishkovitz and Yossi Meckelburg. The show was produced by Tom Webb and researched by Josefina Astrid Nagla Gomez. Our sound engineer was Steph Chun. I'm Andrew Muller here in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening,

[Yossi Mekelberg]

Sam.