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The Morning Edition
A secret, a revelation and a life forever changed for cop turned alleged victim
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- [00:05]
Samantha Selinger Morris
As a police officer who investigated sex crimes, Graham Simfendorfer was accustomed to helping victims on what might be the worst day of their life. He found meaning in tracking down the criminals who'd hurt them. But then came the day when he realized that he, too was an alleged victim. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to the Morning Edition from the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, former detective Graham Simfendorfer on what happened when he decided to report his alleged abuse to police and what it was like to experience the justice system from the other side. It's May 25th.
- [00:56]
Interviewer
Graham, welcome to the podcast.
- [00:58]
Graham Simfendorfer
Thank you so much.
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Interviewer
So, Graham, you were a police officer for 27 years with Victoria Police. Can you just tell us, I guess, about some of your biggest and perhaps most memorable cases and why you love the job so much?
- [01:10]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, look, that 27 years is something that is now part of me. It's who I am. And I had an absolute blast for the whole time, A lot of fun. So worked through uniform all the way into detective world. And then the pinnacle for me was getting into the major crime squads and worked at homicide, worked armed robbery work, sex crimes, drug units, everything. And I just wanted to mix myself around all those different crime things and had a great time doing it. Worked on some of the most serious cases I think that this state and countries seen and had to solve. It was real cops and robbers stuff. So I've thrived on that. For me, I think there was the vulnerability of life and, you know, how much impact it was to the families that, that you saw them grieving at their worst. And our job, the most important job was to represent the victim or represent the deceased that could no longer obviously find answers for themselves, but find answers for the family. So a really emotional job, high pressure, but finding answers for the family is very rewarding to, you know, either find out the why behind how someone was murdered, but also the who. But then eventually moved up to the country to try and slow down a bit, was the plan didn't happen. And the northeast of Victoria certainly didn't disappoint. It kept us busy. And I just love the whole, the whole journey of policing. But eventually had to look after my own wellbeing and enough was enough after 27 years and stepped away.
- [02:38]
Interviewer
And now I want to ask you to take us to a moment. This was so pivotal for you. It was back in 2012. You're sitting at the back of a classroom at the police academy as part of training to become a specialist in Sexual offending. So take us back to that moment. What happened?
- [02:52]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, that's quite a pivotal moment in my life and really turned everything on its head. So yeah, sitting in the classroom, as I say there was a lecture from one of the experts in relation to grooming behaviors, Patrick Tidmarsh, a well, world renowned expert in grooming behaviors. And he was lecturing to us around, you know, what are the signs, what happens and what are the traditional, I guess methodologies of the predators. And he was talking about a particular case and particular methodology of offenders going hands on with their victims and, and tickling. So an excuse to go hands on with a victim. And it just hit me. It took me back to my own childhood and being offended against and it just reconnected that memory and look, I was, I was in shock. I, you know, I, I remember thinking everyone in this room is going to see my reaction to this and they're going to pick it because what was
- [03:44]
Interviewer
going on in your mind? Where did you go?
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Graham Simfendorfer
I went straight back to time and place. I was that 14 year old kid being offended against in his lounge room. That's, that's how impactful it was. It took me straight back and if
- [03:56]
Interviewer
you're happy to say what happened in that lounge room, what happened to you?
- [04:00]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, so I'd been there to go and visit some friends. I knew his, some of his family and went around to see them. They weren't home and it was just him and I. And then before leaving, I don't know exact the details but eventually I was on the ground being tickled and, and then he abused me, putting his hands down my pants and, and started touching me and I tried to fenn back, tried to stop but you know, 14 year old boy versus a grown man is quite a bigger man. Just couldn't, couldn't stop it. So thankfully it ended on its own. There's nothing I could do and I left and you know, never went back.
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Interviewer
And so you, you mentioned this was in a home of people you knew. So who, who was this man who was doing this to you?
- [04:41]
Graham Simfendorfer
He was, he was associated to me through school so one of my teachers at school but he'd through sport and my extracurricular activities. There was connections there and, and almost daily connections there. But he grew my parents for trust, groomed me for trust and anyone around the school and everyone. So there was a fair bit of rumors around at the time though he was a bit sus. I guess that's what's one of the hardest things to, to try and get my head around now as an adult is where were the adults in all this? But it was different back then, right? It was. No one wanted to accuse anyone of. Of being a pedophile.
- [05:18]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [05:19]
Graham Simfendorfer
So it's a bit different. But look, I then had to very quickly, because it happened a couple of times, not just that one time, and I had to very quickly take action to protect myself. So that was in. In the end, giving up a sport that I loved.
- [05:32]
Interviewer
And so tell me, you mentioned just before, you know, when this is all coming rushing back to you in this training session in 2012, you. You sort of came to and thought, oh, my God, everyone's going to see my reaction. So what else were you thinking in?
- [05:45]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, I was just thinking how. Just the. How has this been locked away for so long? I've had to do a lot of work, both in therapy and with counsellors, to try and understand. You know, I'm a. I'm an educated man. I wouldn't say I'm a highly intelligent man, but how is someone who's a professional and a detective in. In this world have a memory that had just been lost? And understanding that. So the, the terminology of this tickling was what reconnected that memory for me and that reconnection just brought it all back and then it was just everything that come with it, you know, why me? How what? You know, a bit of shame. A lot of shame. Not a bit of shame, a lot of shame, a lot of guilt around it and just how did I keep this secret? And then, you know, the trauma that comes with that. So.
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Interviewer
Yeah, and guilt. Why guilt and why shame?
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Graham Simfendorfer
That's a hard one. I think, just as a. As a man, it's. It's. How did this happen to me? You know, we're meant to be strong. We're meant to. You know, those things don't happen to us. We're protectors. Right. So you've. You've let that happen to yourself. So a bit of shame in that. And then what does that then mean for me and my family? Do I tell them? Do I not? Do I tell anyone? Yeah, that's what was going through my mind back then, was just that initial shock. And then. Right, well, what do I do with this now? What does this mean for me? So a lot to unpack. And as the months went on, you know, then falling into alcohol to try and forget again, I just wanted to go back to not remembering because life was good.
- [07:14]
Interviewer
How low did things get in that time when you were just trying to forget and grappling with these memories. Like, what was. Was there a particular point?
- [07:21]
Graham Simfendorfer
That was just the lowest one particular point I think I was in because I went back to work after that course as the officer in charge of that sex offence, child abuse unit, and then just managing the day to day work that you read and you see and you hear. And I remember sitting in my office and was reading across one of the cases and it was the same sort of offending that happened to me. And that, that was rock bottom. That was, you know, I lost it. I had a breakdown in my office crying. One of my senior detectives walked past and was like, you all right, boss? I'm like, nah, I'm not good. Just give me a minute. I'm not good. And that was the moment I went. I got to pick up the phone and get some help because I was throwing myself into work. I was ignoring it all, trying to put it away, drinking, taking risks, you know, both professionally and great occupation to be in, to take risks. Right. So, yeah, you know, executing search warrants or arresting people and always putting myself in front of that danger, almost daring the world to hurt me because it would have been easier to go off work from an injury than say, I'm not coping with this trauma.
- [08:22]
Interviewer
And I really want to ask you about that because some people might be listening and thinking, okay, you're a police officer. I think you were a senior detective sergeant at this point. And you, of course, had been on the opposite side dealing with cases like this, where people had been victims of these sorts of crimes. So some people might think, oh, you know, might your instinct not be to, okay, report this?
- [08:41]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, yeah, great question. Right. And I struggled with that for a long time. Yeah, I know the numbers aren't great. I know the stats to those that actually have the courage to report and tell police to then actually want to confront the offender and try and take it to court. Like, I know those numbers aren't great. It's actually quite shocking, I think, to tell your story to anyone, but then to tell it to police. It's something I've taken for granted for so long. Right. So, you know, whether it was a sex offence or a victim of crime against yourself, I guess I underestimated that until I was on that other side and then thought, I really need to probably do something about this for my own wellbeing and hold this guy accountable.
- [09:23]
Interviewer
And then you did, right? You did something that you had previously asked countless victims to do, which is you reported it to colleagues of yours in the New South Wales Police Force. So I wanted to ask you what was it like to walk into that police station, to sit in that interview room?
- [09:37]
Graham Simfendorfer
Oh God, it was. That's, that's something that will stay with me forever, was walking into the police station as the victim, a station I'd been in countless times before. But to go in and to sit into that interview room and be on the other side of the table for a change, not typing a statement, having it taken for me and going into all those intimate details, you know, having to have breaks and it was part of, it was clinical. I just went into that mode and I, I give the, the example of putting on a mask of. And I guess victims do that. We have to, to I guess self protect. But overwhelmingly I remember after, I think like seven or eight page statement and multiple sittings, walking out of the police station in Albury, because it was a regional town that I went to the weight that was lifted by telling that to someone else and, and that sharing that trauma or sharing that, that's with the police now they can deal with it and put the trust in them to do it. And that overwhelming feeling of not having to carry this on my own anymore was so empowering and literally a weight lifted off my shoulders. So that was a real moment for me to go, okay, this is a good step.
- [10:44]
Interviewer
But then I think comes what? Well, I imagine might be a hard moment. But I want you to tell us because you did something that police officers often ask victims of sexual offenses to do, which is to call the suspected perpetrator in the hopes of eliciting a confession and tape that phone call. Right, Because. So you've got some sort of evidence. Because of course in with these sorts of crimes there's often no witnesses. So you did, you called your former teacher. So what was that like?
- [11:08]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah. Oh, that was one of the hardest things I think I've ever done and did a lot of work. So the gentleman I mentioned before, Patrick Tidmarsh, I'd spoken with him around, how do I frame this conversation? I want to, I want to get this right. This is so important. And knowing there's likely going to be other victims that come forward, if we can get something that is really good evidence, then we might save everyone from going through a trial.
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Interviewer
Right.
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Graham Simfendorfer
Because he may have to obviously overwhelming evidence. So I worked with Patrick on how to frame that question. But I remember the police coming to my place the day of. You know, we planned we're going to call on a particular day that night before, no sleep Whatsoever, just the anxiety and stress and then the challenge with that, you know, the push pull of geez, I've asked so many people to do this and here I am now about to do it myself. The anxiety was overwhelming. I was really not in a great place. But you was determined that I wanted to do it and do it and we did it and we did well. But just that, that moment of anxiousness of the call and probably, you know, not knowing where it was going to go, how the conversation was going to kind of turn, but it was taking me right back and I had to do it for the 14 year old version of me. I think the biggest fear for me was if he just blatantly denied everything and I guess accused you of making it up or you know, calling you crazy or something like that because it's trying to validate or your own memory and your own experience because I hadn't told anyone before. And that's part of that shame and guilt of, you know, what if he just says you're an absolute idiot, this never happened and hangs up.
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Interviewer
And so what actually happened?
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Graham Simfendorfer
Well, the conversation started out quite friendly, which was surprising. I think it was quite, oh, you know, I haven't heard from you in a while, which had been a long time. And I had to really quickly take control of that conversation, which was the psychology behind it of this conversation is not going to go the way you think it is. I need to talk about and had to go directly to the offending and what happened. So in my mind, I know this is likely going to be played before a jury, so I had to be very clinical around we need to talk about what you did by putting your hands down my pants and offending against me.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Graham Simfendorfer
And there was silence. And then I had to own the silence by letting him speak first. So that felt like an eternity, but I think it was only a matter of seconds. And in the end you could just feel the oxygen of that conversation just leak it was gone. And he was in shock of being confronted by this.
- [13:37]
Interviewer
And what did he say?
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Graham Simfendorfer
No denials, that's for sure. So he said eventually there's a few, few calls, but eventually he finally got to the point of I can't remember doing that to you, but if I did do that to you, then I'm sorry. So that was a raw moment that, that got me. That got me. After I hung up, I lost it, started crying and broke down and you
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Interviewer
know, and why, what were you thinking in that moment? What was so upsetting?
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Graham Simfendorfer
I think finally, finally an acknowledgment of that he'd done this. In my mind, I'm like, well, that's, that's almost as good as, you know, it's an apology if I did that. He just wasn't ready to admit about what he'd done. So it was real. It was a validation for me. And I thought, you know, this, this is hopefully going to be good enough for the police to be able to prosecute and put him before a court and let, let a judge, a jury decide.
- [14:33]
Interviewer
We'll be right back. So after this, there's a very long court process which began. I'm just going to pause here while I tell listeners what happened, because this man, this former teacher, he was jailed in March for abusing four other boys, yet he was found not guilty in your case December last year in a judge only trial. So there was no jury. So first off, what was it like experiencing the justice system as a victim? Because of course, this is the system that you had relied on to uphold the law for your whole career.
- [15:03]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, probably a, a big shout out to everyone I've asked to go through it. You know, it's, it's not great. It was, it was a real roller coaster in four years. Like, it's just, look, it's really a process that's got to change, it's got to get better. I think, you know, the people that are in the power to be able to make change have really got to look at that for four years. And look, the, the system is there for people to try and abuse as well. So every time there was a delay, every time there was another adjournment or, you know, it was just re. Victimizing you all over again. And I just, I just remember thinking for years, like how much longer? And there was times I wanted to give up. I just thought, this is too much. This is just, you know, what you get on with your life, you know, this is just going to end up in more pain, more trauma. I know the numbers aren't great to even get in the courtroom, let alone get a guilty verdict. So I thought, why, why do this to yourself? But then eventually talk to some close, close friends around, no, let's push on. Let's hold him accountable and if he has his day in court, then, then I'll be happy.
- [16:05]
Interviewer
And so how did this affect your family and your job?
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Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, my job affected it greatly because I didn't make the decision to come forward and tell police until after I'd left the job myself, until I'd resigned from Victoria Police.
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Interviewer
And was that intentional? Like, do you think you wouldn't have disclosed it had you still been a cop?
- [16:25]
Graham Simfendorfer
Great question. I never thought about that. It didn't play part of my decision making whether I was in or out. I think it just felt the timing was right. Once I'd left the organisation, I thought, right, maybe this is the right time for me to confront this and deal with it and probably hold him accountable. I don't know how I would have dealt with it being within the system. It probably would have really, really reframed my thinking and it's already has reframed my thinking about the whole justice system. I don't feel there was much in it at all, much justice, I mean, at all. It's. It was all in favor of him, it was all in favor of the accused. The trauma of delay after delay, having to retell everything and just the system just let. Let me down, has let probably many, many people down just in delay alone. I think that the same goes. Justice delayed is justice denied. And in my case, so much, and I know the system, so I was like, I get it, I understand the adjournments and whatever and you just got to roll with it. But just that impact on you personally and those close to me, because I didn't, I didn't tell my family. I didn't want to burden them with that weight. We had enough going on in our family at the time that I didn't want to burden my parents and I'd never told my parents and I didn't tell them what happened until we ended up post trial.
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Interviewer
And so what was that like to tell them? And what was it like to hold that all those years not telling them?
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Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, it was. It was a tough one. It was the challenge of do I, don't I. What do I stand again by telling them? What do I. I didn't want to burden them. They're like they're in their 80s and, you know, they can't change what happened. But I just didn't want to add extra stress to them. We'd lost my older brother passed away unexpectedly around that this time. And I thought, well, I just don't want to burden them with more grief and more trauma. Their own. I'll tell them when we have to, which would be in the lead up to the actual court case. And because there'd been a number of false starts with the trial, I thought, let's just wait till we know it's going to go, then I'll tell them. Because if you know that's the local media were reporting on this case. So my dad would ring me up every now and again and go, hey, have you seen the paper about old mate? And I'm like, well, dad, you just haven't picked up on it. You poor, poor guy. You haven't put two and two together.
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Interviewer
And do you wish that he'd had on his own or.
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Graham Simfendorfer
Yes and no. I think I'm glad they didn't in the end because, you know, I think it just would have been too much for them.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Graham Simfendorfer
Now, whether that was a conscious or an unconscious decision from them not to put it together, I don't know. But. But eventually, yeah, I went, I went to mum and dad's house and sat him down at home and rocked up unannounced to. To their place. And I think they knew by looking my face, you know, what's, what's all this about? And, and told them, said the charges that you've been reading the paper on one of. One of them that have come forward and they were just in shock. Yeah. Quite upsetting I think, for, for them to, to know and as a parent now myself, so my youngest boy, he's the same age now as I was when I was offended against. So there was all that to, to deal with as well.
- [19:30]
Interviewer
So what was that like speaking to your children about it? Because I know as a parent, when I hear that, I think, I mean, that's everyone's, it's most parents, it's up there with their worst fears. Right. So how is it like that to process that as a parent and speak to your children about that?
- [19:42]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, look, they, they're amazing. I, I don't know what I expected that to be, but they were, you know, my daughters just hugged me and even my son. I know, I know I'm gonna get emotional. Sorry. Yeah. To. To tell my son and, and for him to look at me like that happened to you at this age, that was, that was hard. But she's. They were so supportive and well done dad for doing this. And yeah, the older kids wanted to probably do take things in their own hands, like. No, we're good, we got this. Yeah, but that's that roller coaster of it all, isn't it? So telling them was probably one of things to see them, you know, see them or have them see you like this. So. Yeah, but have to reassure them that I'm okay. I've got good support. And I'm telling you because you need to, you need to know about this. And this is what I'M going through because, you know, they have to go away for court and be away and just probably telling them that, you know, my mind's a bit vacant at the moment and I'm off. Because they can sense, you know, kids, can't they? They can sense mum and Dad's.
- [20:53]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
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Graham Simfendorfer
Not well and. And their natural reaction is sometime have I doing to upset dad and letting them know this is. This has got nothing to do with you. This is all me. But I'm good, I've got really good help. So. They're amazing, they're really good. And you know, at 14 and 16 and early 20s, they're old enough to understand.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Graham Simfendorfer
And old enough to have that. And we're able to have some conversations about their own safety and their own journey through life in this stage. So. Yeah.
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Interviewer
And of course this was such a grueling process for you because my understanding of the case is that the judge wasn't satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that you were a reliable witness. So this must have been, I imagine, an agonizing process. The judge drew on something that had happened previously where you'd given evidence for the accused a decade earlier. So can you just tell us about
- [21:40]
Graham Simfendorfer
that a little bit? Yeah. So that was. Ended up being probably 20 years earlier. There was other matters before the courts of similar nature and through my connections of his family, I'd been asked to make a statement of did anything happen to you? And I made a statement, said, no, nothing happened to me, everything was disconnected. Which has been been probably the biggest thing for me to try and deal with. Like how, how did you disconnect this memory? And I'd put it somewhere that just didn't want to know. So at that stage, yeah, 20 odd years ago, had had given evidence under oath that nothing happened to me.
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Interviewer
And do you think you just hadn't perhaps come to terms with what had happened to you or perhaps you just didn't recognize it as abuse yet, or was it something else entirely?
- [22:23]
Graham Simfendorfer
No, I think, yeah, I think it had just been put somewhere so far away that I had moved on from my life with it. And I think what has been described now is the memory had been disconnected and then once it had been reconnected and now it's there as if it happened, you know, last week. But that was one of my biggest fear coming forward and I go, well, I can't change what happened in the past and I can't change that outcome, but I can change what I do from here. So let's tell the story and tell the court exactly what happened. And you know, I know what happened, you know what happened. And to have a judge or a decision that came back not guilty, that's just the system. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. For me, it did happen. And it's just, it's just the way that it goes.
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Interviewer
And so how do you come away from that court process then? How do you feel about it, especially now that he has been found guilty of such similar offenses against other students from the same school.
- [23:20]
Graham Simfendorfer
My first reaction when I found out that he was guilty of some matters, because I'd been made aware they'd been found guilty of some matters before my trial actually took place, I thank God he's been found guilty of something. And then whether mine got up or not, at least he's going to be found guilty of something. And for all of us as victims, I can't speak on behalf of any of the others. So I actually don't know who they are. I never met some of these other people, didn't know their names. But to, to I guess have a connection through being a victim from this grub validated somewhat that, you know, we all, we all know his secret is out. He is now a convicted pedophile and he has to live with that. And we all now know what happened. You know, these predators work in silence and everyone not saying anything. And now his dirty secret is out for everyone to see. He's convicted. So whether it's against me or, or others, I didn't particularly worry too much about that. He was convicted of something. Yeah, his dirty secrets out.
- [24:18]
Interviewer
Which really brings us, I guess to the present moment or the last few years because many people who are listening to this, watching this, they might recognize you because after you left the police force you were on a reality TV show called Hunted. So you've got a public profile. Why did you decide to tell this story of what's happened to you? And I guess how hard is it for you to do it? And, and why, why, why put yourself through it?
- [24:40]
Graham Simfendorfer
Yeah, for me, I, I find it's, I just think there's so much great work being done in this space around gender based violence and domestic violence. You know, there's enough one in, I think it's now one woman every eight or seven and a half days now is murdered at the hands of a man. And that's got to change. And there's not enough men standing up to say we've had enough of that. But also not enough men coming forward and normalizing this Conversation. Because these predators work in the shadows. They. They thrive on silence. And if we can have a conversation and yeah, you're right, as a degrade celebrity, It's. It wasn't something I deliberately chose to do. But when I went, okay, there's a bit of a profile here. Maybe I can use that to actually tell my story. And there's so many people out there that may have experienced a similar thing.
- [25:29]
Interviewer
Yeah.
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Graham Simfendorfer
You know, one in five boys at some point sexually assaulted. And that number is just horrific. One in three women, that's just as horrific. So for me, my purpose is to tell my story, be vulnerable. To tell it, tell the whole lot. Be vulnerable about it and go, I've. There is help out there. I try to do it on my own for so long. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. Yeah. You won't find the answer in the bottle. You won't find the answer of not talking about it. There's great help. Doesn't mean you have to go and report to the authorities. You don't have to. You can still go and tell the counsellor, get help. It's the best thing I ever did. This version of me now is so much better than the one that held the secret.
- [26:12]
Interviewer
Well, it is such a privilege to hear your story and I'm so thankful because I think it's such a powerful thing for anyone to see people being vulnerable until telling stories. But like you say, especially men and boys who are so often told not to be vulnerable. So thank you so much, Graham, for your time.
- [26:30]
Graham Simfendorfer
Thank you.
- [26:33]
Samantha Selinger Morris
And just a note, we mentioned in this interview that the alleged perpetrator was jailed for separate offenses against other students. He has since lodged an intention to appeal his case on a date yet to be determined. Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
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Interviewer
our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
- [26:58]
Samantha Selinger Morris
If you like our show, follow the
- [27:00]
Interviewer
Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify.