A (4:20)

And Michael, can you tell us a bit more about who Pretty was?

B (4:24)

Yeah, look, Alex Pretty, he was a 37 year old man, an American citizen. He was from Minneapolis. He was a nurse. He was, he worked at the, he worked with Veterans Affairs. So, you know, helping heal sick veterans. You know, this was an all American person who was a nurse who was helping veterans. And I think there's no doubt that that also contributed to the way that his death has changed the narrative, changed the discussion about what Border Patrol and ICE are doing.

A (4:57)

And do we know why Alex Preddy had a firearm on him?

B (5:03)

Look, it's an interesting point because obviously the Trump administration, and Donald Trump in particular, have said, why was this guy carrying, bringing a gun to, well, you know, a protest or a riot or, you know, perhaps more accurately described as, you know, to monitor and observe this enforcement operation. But, you know, on the other hand, he had a gun license and Minnesota is a state in which you can carry a weapon on you if you have a permit. So, you know, he wasn't disobeying any laws. You know, perhaps he carries a gun with him everywhere he goes. I can't say that for sure, but plenty of Americans do when it's legal in their state. And that actually opened up a whole new kind of side line of inquiry around this case because funnily enough, it was the gun rights lobby, the National Rifle Administration among them, who was saying to the Trump administration, well, wait a minute, you're trying to argue that this guy made himself a target because he was carrying a gun? Well, you know, we believe in carrying guns. It's the Second Amendment. It's his right. And so you actually had the bizarre case of, you know, the NRA criticising the Trump administration and saying, wait a minute here, you're, you know, calling into question our Second Amendment rights.

A (6:25)

So there remains, yeah, that contention about what his motivations were and at what point he took out his gun, if he even did. And we saw this last time with the shooting of Renee Goode, the Trump administration jumped to the defense of the officer. And in this case, they've said that the officer feared for his life and fired defensively. Can you tell me more about what we're hearing from members of the Trump administration?

B (6:48)

Yeah. So, look, it's almost an exact repeat of what happened with Renee Goode. And now, you know, the Trump administration doesn't do anything by halves. So when they immediately decided to defend the ICE agent in both cases, they did that with typical gusto and inflammatory rhetoric. So we had people like Stephen Miller, the White House deputy Chief of Staff, and Donald Trump's Homeland Security advisor, calling Alex Preddy a would be assassin who tried to murder ICE agents. We had Christy Noem, the Homeland Security secretary, call him a domestic terrorist, the same words that she used for Renee Goode. And again, those judgments were made very quickly. Now, look, you know, on one hand, you can kind of understand the instinct to defend your people and defend, you know, it's the federal government defending their federal employees. But the stakes, as we see now, are much higher than that, and the bar has to be a lot higher. We have to actually understand what happened first before we can leap to those conclusions. And in this case, we're now seeing those sort of claims unravel because Donald Trump has intervened. He's sent one of his own people to Minneapolis to replace the Border Patrol commander who was in charge there. And we've seen the White House refuse to back in those sorts of claims by Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem, with the White House press secretary saying today that she has not heard Donald Trump talk about Alex Preddy in those terms. And indeed, you know, at least publicly, he hasn't. So, you know, I think even more so than Renee Goode, where we're seeing that there's a real backlash to that very early, very definitive characterization of this event by some senior Trump administration officials.

A (8:45)

A kind of changing of tack. And so, before we get into all that, Michael, you were in Minneapolis and spoke with residents on the ground and observed the atmosphere. What was it like there?

B (8:56)

Yeah, look, it. It was sort of interesting, the juxtaposition of this horrible event with the sort of beauty of Minneapolis, which I didn't expect, but, you know, it's extremely Cold up there at the moment. All of most of the US Is going through a cold snap, but Minneapolis, which is always cold at this time of year, was particularly freezing. It was, you know, minus 24, minus 25 Celsius overnight. But you've got this beautiful blanket of snow everywhere and these kind of beautiful period houses that are in this part of town where this tragedy happened. And, you know, you sort of go from that to knowing what occurred and seeing this memorial for Alex Preddy, which I went to yesterday morning. And, you know, the. The crowd there, despite the freezing cold, kind of grew over the time that I was there. There was about 100 people when I got there. More. So much more so when I left. And, you know, when you spoke to people, you could feel how full of grief they were. Many of them very, very angry. You know, most people, as you would expect, just kind of stood around this memorial quite peacefully, solemnly contemplating, perhaps saying a little prayer to themselves or maybe even crying. Then you had some other people, you know, you had some activists who. Who would kind of lead the crowd, and, you know, they wanted to have their little speech and they'd interact with the crowd, or, you know, you had one woman who led the crowd in the Lord's Prayer. And, you know, there were some other people who clearly were feeling some deep emotions. You know, there was a woman who said she was a nurse who was kind of screaming out peace and that, you know, all nurses want peace. And she let a chant of those words. So people sort of, you know, were dealing with it in their own way. But, yeah, a lot of sadness and a lot of anger. And you see the anger, too, when you just kind of walk down the street and see the sort of things that are graffitied on, you know, shop fronts and bus shelters. You know, things like ice, kill ice. They're, you know, on every second window, they're on every bus shelter. So it's very raw. After the break, I think things will change because politically, it's become sort of untenable for this to continue. There are now so many Republicans, even people like Ted Cruz, the Republican senator, saying this can't go on. There has to be an investigation into what happened with Alex Pulse and that, you know, the situation has to be diffused.

A (11:47)

We'll be right back. And so can you tell me more about Alex Preddy and what those protesters were actually doing at the scene and how pretty and good are being branded as agitators or even domestic terrorists by people like Vice President J Advance and conservative media outlets? What are they actually doing there.

B (12:16)

So, yeah, look, I mean, there's a range of protest activity that people engage in. As I said before, you know, some people call themselves observers and. But basically I, I spoke to a young woman. She was 28. She was just standing outside a coffee shop nearby because I wanted just to talk to some random people, you know, to get with the. What the typical citizen thinks about all this. And she, it turned out, was an observer. So she says, you know, she started up a group chat with a lot of her neighbors, and they pass on details about what ICE agents are doing in the area where they've been spotted, where these operations are, and then they'll go out and they'll use their phones and they'll record. Now, obviously, some people, you know, stand back passively. Other people get in the faces of these ICE agents and, you know, it's not, it's not pretty what goes on. And people will have their own views about it. I mean, you know, they'll yell out pig. They'll yell out shame. They'll yell out ice. You know, they'll say all sorts of horrible things to these people who, you know, look, are doing their jobs, whether you agree with the job that they're doing or not. So it gets pretty hairy. And then obviously, you know, some people, we've heard from the administration that ICE agents are being sort of rammed with cars or people are using their cars as weapons or to try and kind of block them, to prevent them from carrying out their duties, from carrying out these enforcement operations. So, you know, look, they're pretty hectic protests. I mean, anyone who's seen antifa protests in the US knows that they are pretty serious and that, you know, I mean, we get that in Australia, too, but I think it's probably taken up a notch over here. So, you know, these sort of situations can get difficult, they can get violent. But, you know, these officers are also trained in trying to de escalate and diffuse those sorts of situations. And, you know, looking at the video from both of those cases, that's pretty clearly not what happened here.

A (14:21)

And it does appear from the outside that protesters are only responding to what has become an ever expanding and aggressive ICE operation, with officers allegedly routinely operating outside of the law.

B (14:35)

So I think part of the problem for ICE and the administration is the way that they go about a lot of these activities now, and they're doing multiple things at once. Right. So the part that Donald Trump likes to focus on is that we're rounding up known and accused criminals who are here illegally and we're deporting them. And, you know, look, there's not. Most people kind of wouldn't have a huge problem with that. But, you know, a lot of the time when they're undertaking these operations, it's difficult to know exactly what's going on because these ICE agents are rocking up in unmarked cars, they're wearing masks. They're not clearly, they might be identified as federal agents, but not all of the time. Sometimes they're in plain, plain clothes. And so that leads to these images and this footage of masked unidentified people kind of grabbing people on the street. And that's a very powerful image. And that can be a radicalizing image. I mean, you know, when people like Tim Waltz, the governor of Minnesota, speak about why he wants ICE out of his state, that's what he talks about. Right. So I think part of what Donald Trump might be trying to do now is try and cut down on some of that activity and try to show to the American people that it's more ordered than that, that we know what we're doing and it's not, not that sense of chaos.

A (16:08)

And the governor, Tim Walsh, did come out and say that he had a positive meeting with Trump and that Trump will pull, you say, the top border patrol commander out of the state and other agents. Do you think that will change things or do you think they'll just move to the next one and the fight will continue?

B (16:24)

Oh, look, I think there's going to be some change now. You know, it's sort of remarkable that we're talking about Trump sending in Tom Homan, who's a pretty hard line, you know, guy on immigration, but that we're talking about him being sent in as a kind of circuit breaker and as a sort of moderate, more moderating solution. And yet it's gotten to that point. But I think things will change because politically it's become sort of untenable for this to continue. There are now so many Republicans, even people like Ted Cruz, the Republican senator, saying this can't go on. There has to be an investigation into what happened with Alex Preddy and that, you know, the situation has to be diffused. We've had editorials from the New York Post, which, you know, right wing tabloid newspaper, one of Donald Trump's favorites, saying that, you know, Americans don't want to see these sorts of images and that they need to be stopped. So I think the heat has become too much. I think Donald Trump, you know, for all his critics and all his faults, does have a sort of kind of nose for politics. And he clearly is sensing that the politics on this have shifted and that ICE has gone too far and Homeland Security has gone too far. And that's why he's sending in his person who will report directly to him. And the Border Patrol commander, Greg Bevino, is out and leaving the city tomorrow. So I think there will have to be some change now whether ICE does go into more cities. I'm sure they will go into more cities, but I think this will be a circuit breaker for the kind of activities that they undertake there and how they undertake them.

A (18:06)

And to that point, how important do you think it is that we have an independent investigation after all of this? Because, like with the Renee Goode case, we're still unclear about which authorities will be in charge of that, which authorities have access to police material. So how important is it that we get some kind of understanding of what's happened here?

B (18:26)

Well, I mean, I think it's important kind of from a process point of view because, you know, when an American citizen is killed by a federal agent, there should be an investigation and it's important to get the facts nailed down by some kind of impartial independent probe. I don't think it's necessarily important in terms of kind of the big picture of changing hearts and minds. Like, I think people have kind of, like I think one, we can say, see the footage. And two, I think people kind of have their ideas of what's happened and they have their views on ice, although some people are changing their views as a result of what's happened over the last three weeks. That must be said. So I, you know, I don't think whenever this investigation comes down and however long that might be, it could be a long time that that's suddenly going to, you know, change the debate about ice. I think that debate has already changed in the last three weeks and I think it's probably going to accelerate as the president kind of, you know, takes charge here and intervenes. And, you know, a lot of people in this country follow the president. A lot of Republicans will take his lead. And I think if he's saying that, you know, essentially this has gone too far, then people will rally to that view.

A (19:51)

Well, thank you so much for your time today, Michael.

B (19:54)

Not a problem.

A (20:02)

In other news today, a heat wave scorching south eastern Australia fueled Bushfires, filled skies with smoke and tumbled temperature records. Yesterday, the government tells leading Muslim religious leaders that new hate speech laws were won't prevent criticisms of foreign countries or political ideologies, including Israel and Zionism and The Fair Work Commission has upheld a Melbourne man's dismissal for failing to return to the office despite his contract allowing him to work from home. You can read more at theage.com or smh.com au and while you're there, consider subscribing to us and save 50% for the time. First the first six months on our premium, digital and essential weekend packages to unlock award winning journalism. Plus subscriber favorites like Puzzles, Good Food and Traveller T's and C's. Apply. Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers, our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition. Leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.