Inside Dr Jamal Rifi's mission to bring 'ISIS brides' and children home

Summary

The Morning Edition

Episode: Inside Dr Jamal Rifi's mission to bring 'ISIS brides' and children home
Host: Samantha Selinger-Morris (featuring journalist Michael Bachelard and Dr. Jamal Rifi)
Date: February 25, 2026

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Overview

This episode takes listeners inside the humanitarian mission led by Dr. Jamal Rifi, a Sydney GP, to repatriate 34 Australian women and children—often dubbed "ISIS brides" and their children—from detention camps in northeastern Syria. The conversation explores Dr. Rifi's motivations, the political and security controversies surrounding their return, the lived reality of women and children in the camps, and the failed attempt at bringing them home. The interview also touches on the personal cost and the moral questions facing Australia as it contends with the legacy of the Islamic State.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Dr. Jamal Rifi Became Involved

• Dr. Rifi is not related to any women or children in the camps ([01:46]).
• He began countering ISIS recruitment among youth in 2014-2015, earning death threats for his efforts ([02:58]).
• His engagement transitioned into advocacy for stranded children, including medical advice via phone and messages to families in camps ([05:28]).
• He lobbied the Australian government to repatriate children from the camps, leading to some successful returns in 2019 ([03:30]).

2. Medical Support from Afar

• Dr. Rifi provided remote medical consultations for women and children, covering physical and psychological ailments ([05:28], [10:17]).
• His main concern is the wellbeing of the children, asserting, "I'm not here to judge what the woman has done, that's for the law agencies... My main interest is the well being of young Australian citizens" ([10:17]).

3. Political & Community Backlash

• Successful repatriations in 2022 faced political backlash; the government halted further efforts ([06:55]).
• The government told advocates, "They found their way there, they need to get back in" ([07:53]).
• Dr. Rifi and a group of Muslim, Christian, and Jewish professionals united over "our humanity and... our belief that those children should not suffer the consequences of their father’s or mother’s decisions" ([07:53], [08:46]).

4. Security Concerns and Public Fear

• There is widespread concern about the risk of radicalisation if these women and children return ([09:10]).
• Dr. Rifi argues that expert opinion and security agencies agree: "Australia is a much safer place if those children and mothers are brought to Australia where they can be monitored, rehabilitated, reintegrated into society and de-radicalized" ([09:19]).
• He believes Australian authorities can safely manage any risks ([29:08]).

5. Trauma in the Camps & Failed Repatriation Attempt

• Life in the camps is described as dangerous and traumatic: guards ransack tents, children extorted, and basic needs unmet ([13:37]).
• A recent repatriation attempt failed due to a media leak that endangered the group, resulting in a forced return to the camp—with children devastated to go back ([16:05]).
  • Memorable quote from a child: "I was heartbroken. I was crying. I told my mom, I don't want to go back to the prison." ([16:05])
• Some families lost their tents during this process and now face even worse conditions ([20:26]).

6. The Case of Yusuf Zahab

• Dr. Rifi carried a passport for Yusuf Zahab, taken to Syria at 12, later imprisoned in Iraq as part of mass detentions ([22:14]).

7. Lack of Government & Diplomatic Support

• The Syrian government was angered by Australian political rhetoric and media presence, now requiring written assurances from Australia they know won’t be forthcoming ([24:16]).
• Dr. Rifi has not been able to secure more support from Australia's Home Affairs Minister, despite prior personal and political connections ([25:56]).

8. Legal Ramifications for Humanitarian Efforts

• The opposition proposes laws that could charge helpers like Dr. Rifi with criminal offenses.
  • Dr. Rifi responds: “It is within a lawful right for any Australian citizen who has a passport to come in to their country, Australia. ... If I assist someone who has that right... and then they are going to take me to court or imprison me for doing that? It's extraordinary.” ([27:20])

9. On Justice and Compassion

• Dr. Rifi insists on distinguishing mothers’ possible wrongdoing from the innocence of children and calls for legal process for adults on return ([29:08], [30:44]):
  • "Those kids did not make any beds. They were actually sleeping rough. Someone else made the bed for them. They were forced to lie in it, not by their own volition." ([31:07])

10. Resettlement Experiences

• Returned women and children are reportedly doing well: children thrive at school, no issues with authorities, and one orphan writes poetry ([31:47]).
  • “They sorted themselves out. They're doing very well and they're looking after their kids and they're doing the odd jobs from time to time. And they had no issues with authorities whatsoever.” ([31:47])

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Notable Quotes

• Child’s plea: “I want to go home because my family's there and I want to go to school and I want to learn more things. I want to be a doctor.” ([00:02])
• Dr. Rifi on the case for repatriation: “Australia is a much safer place if those children and mothers are brought to Australia where they can be monitored, rehabilitated, reintegrated into society and de-radicalized.” ([09:19])
• On government opposition: “We were told in no uncertain terms that the government’s policy ... [is] they’re not going to assist them.” ([06:55])
• On legal threats: “It’s extraordinary what it tells our communities at large when helping vulnerable Australians stuck in the camp ... to ... come to their home country ... does not reflect, in my view, our belief in Australia.” ([27:20])
• On children’s responsibility: “Those kids did not make any beds. ... Someone else made the bed for them. They were forced to lie in it, not by their own volition, but by the decision of people who were supposed to look after them.” ([31:07])

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Personal stories of the children—hopes, dreams, and heartbreak ([00:02], [00:27], [16:05])
• Dr. Rifi describing the risks he took to counter ISIS at home ([02:58])
• Failed escape from the camp and emotional fallout ([16:05]-[20:26])
• Details of ongoing trauma and instability in the camps ([13:37], [20:26])
• Strong defense of humanitarian aid against new proposed laws ([27:20])

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Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced look at the stark choices, political obstacles, and moral dilemmas confronting Australia over the fate of its citizens stranded after the fall of ISIS. It humanizes the “ISIS bride” children through firsthand voices, scrutinizes government reluctance, and shines a light on the compassion and persistence of advocates like Dr. Jamal Rifi. The tone is urgent, empathetic, and unflinching—asking listeners to consider not just security and politics, but also justice and humanity.

Transcript

[Child from ISIS Brides Group]

I want to go home because my family's there and I want to go to school and I want to learn more things. I want to be a doctor.

[Narrator/Host]

That was one of the children of the so called ISIS brides, a group of 34 women and children who have been at the center of a political and media firestorm over whether they should be allowed to return home to Australia.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Why do you want to go back to Australia? Australia?

[Child from ISIS Brides Group]

Cuz Australia is a beautiful country with very beautiful, kind people. And I want to go to Australia because I want to, I want to go to school, I want to learn, I want to be a chef and I want to go on Australians Got Talent. What do you want to do on Australia's Got Talent? I want to sing and dance. What do you want to say to the Australian people? I want to say to them I want to go home, I want to live my life. I want to go home and I want to go to my family.

[Narrator/Host]

Their mothers had traveled to Syria when they were younger and were part of the Islamic State. They married jihadists who are now dead or in jail. When the so called caliphate fell, they were put in detention camps. For seven years they have lived in no man's land trying to return home to Australia. Jamal Refi is a doctor from Sydney at the centre of a controversial mission to repatriate them. Today Dr. Refe speaks to senior writer Michael Bachelard for this special episode of the Morning Edition.

[Michael Bachelard]

So I'm here with Dr. Jamal Refi, he's in the Middle east still. Good morning, Jamal.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Good morning to you, Michael.

[Michael Bachelard]

I guess I want to start with asking about your involvement in this. How did you become involved in this case? You're not a family member?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

No, no, I'm not related to any of the women or children who are in a roach camp. My family involvement, I would say that since the start of the so called Islamic State and I saw some of young people joining them and I knew that their ideology is a murderous ideology. They're trying to recruit vulnerable young people or people who really don't know much about the Islamic State. And they were impressed with the way they conducted themselves online. Sleek media and nice words. But their action, it's totally different from their word. So I stood up for them, I tried to educate my community about that so called Islamic State. It's not what it looks like. And to prevent them from going, this

[Michael Bachelard]

earned me and we're talking about maybe 2014 here.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

2014, 2015. Yes, that's earned me a death threat from them. Someone Put a bounty for any information about where I live and where my kids go to school and that sort of things. And followed by a death threat. And so I stood up to them, except in 2019, with the demise and the fall of the Islamic State and the people related or being with them, being in a detention camp in northeast Syria, I felt at that time the plight of those children. And I did have a dinner with the then Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, and the Immigration Minister, David Coleman. And later on they organized a meeting with the then Home Affair Minister, Peter Dutton, who I met once in my life in Sydney. And I pleaded for the kids. And after that he gave me the indication, Peter Dutton, that he would repatriate the orphans, that they were existing in the camp. And to his credit, couple of days later, took the orphan from a roach camp to Erbil. They stayed in Erbil and they brought them to Australia. And they did quite well after that. I started receiving calls from the women who are in the camp seeking my medical advice because I felt they didn't trust the medical service they were receiving. And I had to deal with issues with recurrent tonsillitis, asthma attack, panic attack, also chillblain and in the summer, sunstrokes and minor illnesses and also some psychological issues that's happening with the children's at that time.

[Michael Bachelard]

And that you were doing this all over the phone.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Yes, all over the phone and mainly with messages, because they're not supposed to have this phone. They can only turn them on at different time when they feel it is safe and they will send me messages or recording. And in 2022, the current labor government, they had repatriated a cohort of four women and 13 children. And we saw that there was some political backlash against that move because, let's face it, anything to do with this cult of death that's called isis, it will meet with a lot of dismay and anger from the larger community. And I felt that the government, with the backlash and that they suffered, they made the decision not to undergo any further repatriation. In June of last year, we had a meeting in the office of the current Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke, and we pleaded for those kids. And we were told in no uncertain terms that the government's policy on these cohort that exists, who are 11, 11 women, 23 minors, and one person who was taken from his mother at the age of 12 and was put into adult prison. And we didn't know which prison he was at the time. So we were talking about 35 in this cohort and the decision of the government that they're not going to assist them or plan the repatriation and they have said they knew how to get there, they need to find their way back in.

[Michael Bachelard]

That's what they said of the women and children, that they found their way there, they need to get back in.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Yes. So I myself was a group of professional, we discuss the situation of people in a roach camp and we were people from the Muslim faith, Christian faith and the Jewish faith. What mind us, is our humanity and it's our belief that those children should not suffer the terrible consequences of their father's or their mother's decision. And those children are Australian and they shouldn't spend any length of time and we were convinced that the government did not want to initiate a repatriation and we thought that to see what we can do ourselves.

[Michael Bachelard]

I guess it's hard to tell what the overall impression of the Australian public is and you hear different views, but there are many people in, including the government, who are worried that these women are radicalised, that perhaps some of their children also are becoming radicalised, that they are dangerous, that we don't want them here. Do you understand that concern?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Yes, I do. Because with every repatriation of such cohort it has a security implication.

[Michael Bachelard]

But.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

But I've read extensively about different repatriation that has taken place in different part of the world and also I've read about expert people in the field of violent extremisms, radicalized people and even our own security agencies. They said that Australia is a much safer place if those children and mothers are brought to Australia where they can be monitored, rehabilitated, reintegrated into society and de. Radicalized.

[Michael Bachelard]

Over the years of treating and dealing with these families. What's your impression of the children and the mothers you've dealt with?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Definitely the children are very vulnerable in that environment and they're definitely affected, but they have a passion for coming to Australia, to their home country. I've seen their drawing that was done in the camp and I received messages from them at different, different occasion. They felt for someone that I'm not related to them but am treating them with respect, with compassion and also with empathy. I felt the mothers and the children appreciated that contact over the years and to be honest, I'm not here to judge what the woman has done, that for the law agencies and the legal process to take its place, if they broken any Australian law, they should go through the law and receive their punishment. My main interest is the well being of young Australian citizens who've been in the camp, in my opinion, for far too long. And the Australian government is not willing to accept them into this country just for political repercussions.

[Michael Bachelard]

Can you understand, particularly in the wake of Bondi and the fact that the ISIS flag, you know, was common to both these people and to the Bondi attack. Can you understand the emotion and the kind of distress around the idea of these people coming back?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Without any doubt, the terrible event that led to the killing of 15 innocent civilian and too many injured people and even furthermore traumatized people, and that led to the fracture in our society. It impacted on everyone, including myself. When we made that decision, we didn't want to be insensitive. But then situation in the Middle east was changing and changing rapidly. First of all, to be honest, we were concerned that there will be a regional war taking place. USA may hit Iran or Israel may hit Syria, and the arms of Iran in Lebanon, Syria or Iraq might cause also further issues in the area. And also we've heard that the American troop, they were planning withdrawal from northeastern Syria. And we were quite concerned that the area will become a, you know, war zone.

[Michael Bachelard]

The area where this camp is.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Where this camp is? Yes. And also we read in international journals that in the camp the tension was very high. And the ladies who are there reported to us their fear and increase destruction within the camp itself. And the guards would come in in the middle of the night, ask the kids and the mothers to go outside in the cold weather, and there will be shivering staying there for a couple of hours, their blanket taken away and their tents are ransacked. And we also heard of some extortion for money and some of the kids being taken from their mother and ransom was demanding to the tune of a couple of thousands of dollars. So the tension was rising.

[Michael Bachelard]

Do you know if that happened to any of the Australian children?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

No, it wasn't involved in Australian children, but the children were involved in a way of getting out from the camp into, from the tent into the outside playground and their rooms were ransacked and the going through everything. And we heard that some of their items were stalling and disappeared and they were really fearful of their life. So we felt under these circumstances and knowing the center said sensitivity in Australia, but the deteriorating security situations in the camp, that we needed to act and we needed to act quickly. And we did once the passport were available to us.

[Michael Bachelard]

So tell me about that day where everybody was gathered together. They were put on three buses, they left the camp. We have some audio from one of the children describing what it was like telling us what it was like leaving the camp and seeing cows and donkeys and so forth, and then what it was like being brought back.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

How did you feel when you were leaving the camp?

[Child from ISIS Brides Group]

I felt very happy and excited to meet my family. I saw houses for the first time and trees and trees and grass. And I was very excited. But when we had to turn back, I was very upset. I was heartbreaking. I was crying. I told my mom, I don't want to go back to the prison.

[Michael Bachelard]

Tell me about that day.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

I myself did not make it to the camp. I stayed in Damascus. But we had three Australian citizens in northeastern Syria. They were negotiating the release of the women and children with the Syrian Democratic Forces. And it took them about a couple of days to convince them. They were demanding some papers or requests from the Australian government. And unfortunately we didn't have any and we knew that we're not going to have any. So we talked to them about it. We showed them a copy of their passport and after a while they agreed to do that. And they were supposed to take them out on a Monday morning. And they arrived with their minivans. And to the people's surprise, they found many journalists with their cameras, videos and everything. And that's where immediately they send me a message that there is a scrum of journalists and they videoing everything. Then we knew immediately that our mission is doomed for failure because we did not want at that time for what we are doing to be publicized. And unfortunately, after they've taken them from the camp, drove about 50km and there was many discussion and phone calls. And then we felt that if we proceed any further, we would have put their life at risk because we got the impression that there are some divisions taking place and we're not talking about one single entity and the Syrian government. We've been told that not to ask to the drivers, to ask them to their return because they're not going to let them proceed to Damascus. So they have returned and unfortunately later on has been described to me how traumatic when they had to return them. It was very traumatic to the woman, the children and to the three Australian that they were conducting the repatriation and the discussion at that time. Everyone felt deflated, traumatized, but especially the kids. The kids, they were crying and this made the adult cry and people, three Australian who were there, what they reported to me was an utter devastation that involved the whole of atmosphere in that area.

[Michael Bachelard]

I heard overnight that some of the tents had been destroyed while they were away. So some of them didn't Even have somewhere to go back to.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

That's true. At the time when they left, the guard started to dismantle this tent. By the time they had to come back, they needed to actually share the remaining tents among themselves. And they still sharing the remaining tents among themselves. Those dismantled tent were not re erected because with now what we know that there was a decision by the Syrian Democratic Forces that they are going to close a Raj camp. And they didn't give a time frame but they said it could be sooner rather than later. I know that two days ago there was a report by the Human Rights Watch and they talked about people smugglers, prophetees and others maybe. Or they put their trade trying to benefit financially from the misery of those young children and women, women that everyone termed them as ISIS brides, while in reality they are ISIS widowed rather than brides.

[Michael Bachelard]

And you have traveled over there with 35 passports, haven't you? And one is for a young man. Tell me about Yusuf Sahaba.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Yusuf Zahab was taken by his parents into Syria when he was 12 years old. He didn't know where he was going and didn't know anything about Syria itself. And because of his age he remained at home, didn't go outside, didn't know anyone over there, spending his time playing on computer and his gadgets. And at the fall of the so called Islamic State he was taken with his mother and siblings in the camp in Aroj. And later on he spent sometimes with his mother, then later on taken from the camp itself into an adult prison. And I believe a journalist, I think Scandinavian journalist, sent us message that he knows that Yusuf was taken by the American troops from Syria into Iraq. In totality, I believe they've taken more than 5,000 prisoners. One of them is Yusuf, unfortunately.

[Michael Bachelard]

And so now he's a young man, 22, 23 years old I think now in Iraqi prison. Is that right? As far as you understand that's true right now?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Yes.

[Michael Bachelard]

Once the women and children were back in the camp, you were still in Damascus. You were still trying to convince, I guess the Syrian authorities to let them out. What happened then? There was a lot of rhetoric at that point from Australia. Did that have an impact?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Definitely. We engaged with the Syrian government and we spoke in people in the government itself in a very senior position. They have told us in no uncertain terms that they were not happy with the media being present at the time of the extraction of the woman and the children. And they were not happy with the rhetoric of the Prime Minister in Australia because zoos are Australian citizens. It is his responsibility. And if he doesn't care about them, why should the Syrian government care about them? They felt that they are concerned if those women and children allowed to travel, that they needed to stop for somewhere in the Middle east and then the second country may not allow them to proceed to Australia or if they proceed to Australia from such a rhetoric that probably Australia will not receive them. And they wanted a written assurances that will receive a destination. And this written assurances, we didn't have access to it, we don't have was refused before and we know the government is not going to provide them. So we are not any better than what we were before.

[Michael Bachelard]

You describe yourself as a friend of the Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke. You helped him at the last election. Have you asked him for help?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

We met three people in his office in June of last year. We put our case forward to him passionately. But we were told in no uncertain terms that the current labor government will not repatriate and will not provide any assistance. And their position has not changed after that. I have not had any discussion about this matter because I knew we're not going to get anywhere. It was a government decision and as a minister, he will go by the government's decision. I have not discussed it with him, but we planned what we want to do. I haven't told him about it and I haven't spoken to him for a while.

[Michael Bachelard]

What do you think of the opposition's proposal that you are as a helper and somebody who's trying to help these people get back to Australia, that you yourself could be subject to prosecution under a law that they proposing.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

To be honest, when I heard about what the opposition is proposing, I was perplexed. I believe it is within a lawful right for any Australian citizen who has a passport to come in to their country, Australia. It is a lawful right. If I assist someone who has that right and then they are going to take me to court or imprison me for doing that. It's extraordinary what it tells our communities at large when helping vulnerable Australian stuck in the camp for the last five, six years to escape that camp and come to their home country, regardless of what their mother or father have done, it is. Does not reflect, in my view, our belief in Australia.

[Michael Bachelard]

You talk about the children and understandably so. But when the opposition, when the people who don't want these people to come home, when they speak, they talk about the mothers and fathers and what they've done. What's your understanding of what they've done and do you understand people's fear of bringing people like that back into Australia?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

I do understand and I knew that the repatriation, as I've said it, has a security repercussions. But also I believe our security agencies are competent agencies. They will be able to minimize and annul the dangers. Those children, they need to be home and I'm not one to separate them from their mothers. If those women have broken any laws when they are in Australia, they have to go through the court systems. And the Prime Minister said he's going to throw the books at them, but he need them to be close for that book to reach its target. If they stay in Syria, that book is not going to reach their target. I reckon I still believe that we in Australia, despite the fact that nobody will look sympathetic to what these mothers or their husband have done, they should look compassionate about those kids, bring them here and let the legal system deal with them. And our security agency more than competent to keep everyone safe.

[Michael Bachelard]

So what, in your view, should the Prime Minister do now?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

I reckon he should listen to what my mother would say, be compassionate towards those kids because those kids have done nothing and should not suffer the consequences of the sin of their fathers or mothers.

[Michael Bachelard]

He says he's listening to his mother who says, if you make your bed, you lie in it.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Those kids did not make any beds. They were actually sleeping rough. Someone else made the bed for them. They were forced to lie in it, not by their own volition, but by the decision of people who were supposed to look after them. And they failed to do so in a very terrible, tragic way.

[Michael Bachelard]

Jamal, can you tell me what you know of the women who have come back already? The two who came back in 2025 and the four who came back in 2022. Are they and their children settling into Australian society?

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Let me tell you about those who came in in 2019, the orphans, the one that stayed in Sydney. I've had. Information that they've done very well at school, they've done very well at home. And one of them is a poet and she's been writing very nice poems. I had the lucky situation to read one of her poem and I was very much impressed. Those women that they come in afterwards, they had a transition initially, but they sorted themselves out. They're doing very well and they're looking after their kids and they're doing the odd jobs from time to time. And they had no issues with authorities whatsoever? None whatsoever.

[Michael Bachelard]

Dr. Jamal Rufi, thank you very much for joining us today.

[Dr. Jamal Refi]

Thank you, Michael.

[Narrator/Host]

Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.