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Donald Trump
Foreign.
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Narrator/Host
Cheating and sporting corruption have followed the revelation that Donald Trump intervened in the World cup to overturn the suspension of an American player. But the ramifications of this unprecedented event might far outlast the Cup. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris and you're listening to the Morning Edition from the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today. Sydney Morning Herald deputy editor Nick Ralston and North America correspondent Michael Kosial on the worldwide cheers against the USA that followed this intervention. And if it marks an adieu for Trump's supporters,
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Samantha Salinger Morris
Welcome, Nick and Michael, to the podcast.
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Nick Ralston
Good to be here.
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Michael Kosial
Thanks, Samantha.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
Okay, so I don't know why I'm surprised that Donald Trump has yet again intervened in a pretty remarkable way on the world stage. And yet here, of course, we are. So, Nick, let's start with you. What happened with the American president and this red card incident at the World Cup?
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Nick Ralston
Yeah. So the US had been having something of a successful World Cup. They obviously one of the three co hosts, a lot of pressure, an expectation on them, but they had performed reasonably well. They had that, well, that unfortunate two nil win over the Socceroos. They got through the group stage. They did lose to Turkey, but did it reasonably easily. And what was a competitive group, they played their first Knockout Round of 32 game against Bosnia and they were sort of cruising in that as well. Florian Balogan, who's been something of a sort of a standout for the US team, score scored one, had one disallowed. But then in the 61st minute got into a bit of a tangle with a Bosnian defender, landed awkwardly sort of on the back of his leg towards his ankle. The referee took a look and gave him a red card. He was sent off. There wasn't, there was a lot in the US media after that about how there was sort of no real avenue for the US to appeal this decision. And it looked as if the US would go into their next round of 16 knockout game against Belgium without their, their star attacker. And then sort of somewhat out of nowhere, we got this sort of breaking news came to our phones saying that Mulligan would be able to play against Belgium. And Donald Trump was very quick to sort of congratulate and thank FIFA for doing so, which I think got everyone's sort of suspicions up.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
Absolutely. I mean, I've heard people refer to this as a presidential pardon in terms of his sway in getting this red overturned. But Michael, I think it's fair to say there's a lot more to it than just Trump's intervention. Right. So Tell us, I guess, about how big of a governmental effort was this to get the red card overturned?
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Michael Kosial
It was a full court press. So Andrew Giuliani, who is the guy that Donald Trump put in charge of the White House World cup task force, he's the son of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, also a Trump acolyte, and used to be one of his lawyers. Anyway, so Andrew Giuliani in an interview with ESPN in the last 24 hours, basically said, look, as soon as we got on the plane after that Bosnia game, we were on the phone to lawyers, contacting lawyers trying to work out how to appeal this decision. He was on the plane with Howard Lutnick, Donald Trump's commerce Secretary, and other well connected guy, another billionaire. So they were contacting lawyers, other people got involved. The New York Times has done some reporting about a guy called Scott Goodwin, another rich guy, hedge fund manager, big soccer donor here in the US and he's the guy, apparently, according to the New York Times, who brought to the White House's attention these former accusations, old accusations against the referee in that US Bosnia game, Raphael Klaus. And Trump had something about to say about that today during his little Q and A in the White House, basically saying, you know, this guy's very suspect.
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Donald Trump
And this referee, who is a little bit suspect, if you check his, if you check his past, I don't want to say that because I don't like to create controversy, but, but very suspect.
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Michael Kosial
Of course, those allegations were not upheld. In the end, he was cleared, but Trump brought it up anyway. So there was a big effort, lots across government, lots of people involved. And, you know, to be fair, the U.S. soccer team is allowed to appeal this decision. They're allowed to put their case to FIFA. But it seems in this case, they got a lot of help from people throughout the government, including obviously, as we've spoken about, from, from the very, very top of the US Government in Donald Trump. And that is extremely unusual.
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Donald Trump
How do you penalize them for a game that hasn't been played yet? It's very unfair. You can't do that. So, yes, I asked for a review by FIFA. I spoke to a man who's highly respected and, by the way, whose level of respect has gone up tenfold. And he was good before this started, but, you know, he really pushed it in this country. I'm the one that got them to do it.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
And so, Nick, I want to turn to you because, of course, the end result was that Baligan was allowed to play in this match against Belgium, which Kicked off on Tuesday morning our time. So how much of a part, I guess, did Donald Trump's intervention play in him actually playing this match?
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Nick Ralston
Look, I think everything indicates that Trump's intervention played a major role in him being able to play. But I think probably FIFA's been saved by the Belgium football team. Belgium winning 41 means the US are out of the tournament. And look, I don't think it ends the discussion there. I think that there will be a lot more of this still to play out. We've had some pretty senior figures within the game, including uefo, which is the European body that oversees football there. Thomas Tuchel, the coach of England, pretty much any other sort of big name manager who's given a press conference since this decision has been made, has come out and spoken out against it. So. So in some ways probably the integrity of the tournament's been saved by Belgium beating the US 41. Baligan did play, he didn't play very well. The US didn't play very well. So I think it's, you know, the US was already sort of, I guess, on many Australian soccer fans enemy list. There was a lot of tension and, and buildup between Australia and the socceros for that clash in Seattle. So I don't know if there'll be too many sympathetic Australian soccer fans with how this has played out for the U.S. but I think that this has definitely overshadowed their performance and I don't if there was many, if any, neutral soccer fans that would have been on the US side today. So look, it's all come to nothing really, except that put FIFA's integrity under spotlight and the influence of Trump on FIFA in the spotlight as well.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
And just to play devil's advocate for just a moment, Nick, I mean, is there any chance that Trump actually did have a case? Is there a case to be made that the referee did err in issuing Baligun with a red card? Because I certainly have seen sport commentators, some of them, saying that he thought the ref made the wrong decision. Although I is within the world of FIFA, there's an understanding it's subjective and that if the ref calls a red card, it stood by and that you don't appeal it. Obviously that's not what happened in this case. But does Trump have a case?
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Nick Ralston
Well, look, there's been 13 red cards this World cup, which is quite a lot by tournament standards. This is the only one that people are talking about. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day, if it's a red card, it's a Red card, you know, the video var were the one that sort of awarded a decisions made and you sort of have to accept that decision decision. Football's built on discussion and controversy around decisions like this. And I think that if you're going to have instances like this, I don't, I think it's the first time since 1962 that a red card's ever been suspended like this. And like I said, there's been 30 in this tournament. There's probably cases where also question marks have been put on, on, on some of those, the other 12. But I think once the red card's given, then that's sort of the, the final decision. The one game suspension should have stood and, and, and this should never have happened. I think everyone was sort of, you know, totally blown away by what, what has gone on here and Trump picking up the phone to Gianni Infantino. The, the president of FIFA have not heard of this happening ever before. And it's hard to imagine that it would happen possibly with any other two people except for, for Trump and, and his mate Johnny, Johnny Infantino. And it sort of goes to this, I guess, feeling that the Americans, you know, aren't a serious football or soccer nation and don't understand how the sport works, which has sort of been a bit of an undercurrent, a bit of Euro snobbery possibly towards North American soccer fans. I think there's sort of a feeling that the Americans don't understand how the game properly works. And this is not, this is not the done thing in football.
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Michael Kosial
After the break, if you like Trump, you think he did a great thing standing up for his country and going into bat for one of his countrymen. And if you don't like Trump, you think that he's, you know, embarrassed the country. On the world stage yet again,
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Virginia Giuffre
Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish A Prince and a Millionaire. And I won't stop fighting.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
I will never be silenced.
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Virginia Giuffre
But one of her toughest battles was a very private one. It was the worst thing that could have happened to her, her children or her life. Virginia A podcast from the newsrooms of the age, the Sydney Morning Herald and WA Today coming soon.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
So, Michael, I just want to turn to you now because we've talked a little bit about, in this conversation about how there's probably not many Australian fans that are going to be mourning what's happened here and whether this sort of, I guess, continues on. This controversy lives on even though, of course, America's lost the match. Might, for instance, this prevailing anti USA sentiment that's resulted from Trump's intervention. Like, could that cost Trump politically?
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Michael Kosial
Oh, I don't think so. I mean, I think in the US opinion is has been settled on Trump for a very long time, probably for about 10 years. And there's very few things that kind of move the dial on him personally among Americans. I mean, you know, if you like Trump, you think he did a great thing standing up for his country and going into bat for one of his countrymen and, you know, for the, the hope of the side. And if you don't like Trump, you think that he's, you know, embarrassed the country on the world stage yet again. And, you know, I mean, there are some people that talk about the Trump curse when it comes to sport, mainly to do with the Kansas City Chiefs in the NFL who, whenever Trump gets involved, seem to start losing. But yeah, look, I mean, I, you know, I think people who believe that Donald Trump has brought the US into disrepute around the world have thought that for a long time. So I don't necessarily see any political consequences for him. I mean, in terms of ongoing consequences in the tournament itself. There's an English player who got a red card in their match last night against Mexico. And I don't know if anything's come of that in the last couple of hours, but England, it'd be. The British politicians are now saying, well, we need to challenge this red card ahead of England's next, next match. So, you know, all red cards are now kind of up in the air. Why, why don't we challenge fourth and see what we can get, see if we can get the suspension overturned and who knows what could happen in the next, you know, week, week or two down the pointy end of the tournament. So, yes, I mean, you know, there could be flow on effects within the World cup itself.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
And Mike and Nick, just to wrap up, I'll throw this last question to both of you. I'm just wondering if you could reflect, I guess, on just how this story has blown up. Because of course we seen allegations of sporting corruption and that the integrity of this particular World cup has been absolutely harmed by this incident. But I'm just wondering, I guess, about political reflections on this. You know, is this yet another example of this American president, I guess, wielding his power in ways that are unprecedented in American presidency? I mean, do you think this is how people are feeling it? I don't know if you've been noticing that on the ground, Nikki. We're just covering the World cup in America and elsewhere. And Michael, you of course are in Washington now, but you were at the match, I believe, in Seattle. Like what, what are people feeling?
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Nick Ralston
Look, there was a lot of concerns going into this World cup about certain issues, I think, about how some countries would be treated. We saw a lot of talk about, you know, the Iranian football team and, and what they've had to do. They weren't obviously allowed to stay in America. They were going to be based in Arizona. They were forced to go to, to Mexico and fly in and out, you know, the day of the match and, or the day after the match etc. And I, I think talking to people that were over there for the World Cup, I think there was sort of a bit of an apprehension before the tournament began, but there wasn't really any sort of site or mention of Donald Trump in relation to the World cup up until this moment. And look, the tournament, it hasn't, has not been without its faults and there has been, you know, some, some controversies and that in, in the background. But, but by and large, I think fans were sort of happy that this hadn't become a Donald Trump circus and that the football was allowed to play out. That's obviously all changed now in the last sort of 48 hours or so. But yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean, you know, they had controversies around the World cup in 2018 in Russia and 2022 in Qatar and I think when this one was awarded, the North America was sort of seen as going to be the sort of more straightforward World cup and obviously world events in the 10 years since the US and Mexico and Canada were awarded the, the tournament considerably. But look, I think this has left a bit of a sour taste in people's mouths and like I said, I think if, if the US had won today, then I think it would also be, you know, a real sort of. Well, it would have been interesting to see where that, where the tournament went from there, given all the outrage, especially from Belgium and UEFA about the decision. So I think in many ways we're fortunate the US are out of the tournament and hopefully the rest of it can proce without too many other interventions.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
And Michael, what about you and what are your reflections on this?
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Michael Kosial
Well, it was reported a few days ago that Donald Trump and possibly J.D. vance were going to be at that game in Seattle that we just watched, the US and Belgium game that obviously didn't come to fruition, but it would have been fascinating if he had attended to see what reception he would have received. He is still, as far as we know, due to present the trophy to the winner up in New Jersey on, what is it, July 18th. So, you know, it'll be interesting to see what reception he gets then from the two non USA teams, whoever they turn out to be. I mean, look, I think in some ways, Donald Trump lifts the lid on the way the system always has worked. You know, the way the power often operates in the background. You know, powerful, wealthy, connected people call each other up and ask for favors and skirt the rules. This happens all the time with Donald Trump. It's just a lot more overt. And then he'll go into the Oval Office and just blurt out, you know, the details about exactly what transpired, as if, you know, it was totally fine and there was nothing untoward about it. And possibly that's because he believes that there wasn't. He obviously recognized it was not a good thing for him to be seen to be pressuring Gianni Infantino because he said, you know, he, he stressed, I didn't tell him what to do. You know, I can't tell him what to do. But he was perhaps not alert to the fact that, you know, him as president, ringing up the head of FIFA and requesting a review and, you know, whatever else he said, you know, carries a certain weight to it, let's say. So I think in some ways what we see from Donald Trump is, is the way the system often works, but in a much more extreme way, he's willing to push the boundaries of his power and of the office as far as they can possibly be pushed. And when we see that up close, it is pretty ugly.
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Samantha Salinger Morris
Thank you so much, Michael and Nick, for joining us.
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Nick Ralston
Thank you.
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Michael Kosial
No problem.
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Narrator/Host
In other news today, one of the nation's chief forecasters has predicted that Australia faces its longest stretch of subpar economic growth since the early 1990s recession. Days before a Central coast mother allegedly murdered her son, caseworkers warned it was only a matter of time before a child died in the New South Wales rail region that's afflicted by drugs, mental health problems and a child protection regime in shambles. And midlife women used to report higher satisfaction with their bodies than younger women. But a new study has found that this has changed as grey divorce and anti aging messages have increased. You can read more@the age.comau or smh.comau Today's episode was produced by Chee Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow the MORNING Edition and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.