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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:23]
B
Why six years on Is Donald Trump peddling yet again the falsehood that the 2020 presidential election was stolen and how many Americans now believe it? I'm Samantha Salinger Morris and you're listening to the Morning edition from the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald Today International and political editor Peter Harcher on what the timing of Trump's renewed fixation tells us about his ulterior motive. It's July 23rd, Peter, welcome back to the podcast.
- [00:56]
C
Pleasure, Samantha.
- [00:57]
B
You know I'm always excited to have you on, but particularly today because Donald Trump has been cracking on again about elect electoral fraud, electoral interference, as he says. He says he's declassified intelligence files that reveal shocking vulnerabilities about the American electoral system. So tell us what he said and about this intel that he says proves it all.
- [01:17]
C
Yes. So six years on from the 2020 election, which he claims was stolen from him, he's again not only talking about that, but held a, a national address, a televised address to the nation to advance the claim and to produce what he said were was shocking new evidence, as you say, of quote, catastrophic, catastrophic failures in the US Election system.
- [01:46]
D
Every American deserves to know that when they cast their vote, that vote will be counted accurately in a system, and that is to make that system secure, one where cheating and interference are not just difficult but virtually impossible. Unfortunately, the system we have today falls catastrophically short of that standard tonight.
- [02:10]
C
Now this may be a little perverse because he in fact is president today because of that same system which he's now undermining confidence in. Among the statements he made, and there was more than 20 minutes of this continuous stream from him from the podium were that China had run a huge interference campaign against him in the 2020 election, that Chinese authorities had stolen more than a quarter of a million voter details and used them against him, that Russia, China, Iran had all been meddling in the electoral system, that the system was completely broken and demanded and this I think was the main point of the content of the speech, was to demand that the Congress get on and approve a bill that he's put before the Republicans have created before the Congress to pass the quote, save s a V E America Act.
- [03:10]
D
This landmark bill requires that all voters must show photo voter id. How simple is that? Could I have your photo, please? Photo voter id. All voters must provide proof of citizenship. Are you a citizen of our country? Please? And hopefully there will be no corrupt mail in ballots, which if you watched California and so many other, which is
- [03:36]
C
all about, or mostly about trying to put Trump's demands that the states who run the elections in the U.S. remember, this is a highly federalized system where the federal government has no role and the states conduct the elections. The states have to meet his demands for how to run the elections that are coming up in November, where they have the congressional midterms.
- [04:01]
B
Okay, well, let's talk about the timing, because it really does speak to the ulterior motive that you sort of foreshadowed a bit before. And I find the timing so interesting because the U.S. of course, is facing a lot of immediate problems right now. Right? Like Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, just announced that the Iran war has so far cost 37.5 billion doll. Three American soldiers were just killed in that conflict. And yet Trump is talking about, of all things, electoral fraud now. So tell us about this timing, Peter.
- [04:29]
C
Well, it was a bit unseemly, actually, with the new deaths of American service members, 16 altogether so far in this war that happened. Not to mention the deaths of the murder of people on the streets by ICE agents that occurred last week. And as you say, what all the polls show is the overwhelming preoccupation and concern of American voters, which is the cost of living and high inflation and how that's eroding their living standards. Trump glazed over all of those. He claimed victory on everything, as he likes to say, I got everything right, and then just spent the next 20 plus minutes talking about electoral fraud. So why six years later, with these being the real concerns of real voters in his country and a war which is again raging and pushing up the price of oil back towards where it was earlier in the year. Is he talking about this? Well, the two obvious points are, one, his demand that the Congress pass the SAVE act, which is currently before it and which it's shown no interest in passing. And why that? Because that would affect the processes for voting for the November midterm elections, where the polls tell us that, and this is consistent with all historical patterns, that the incumbent party loses some support at the midterms. And that would be normal and natural. And the polls are telling us that is exactly what will happen. And Trump obviously is concerned about this. And rather than Trying to salvage his approval ratings and the Republican Party's standing through addressing the actual concerns of the American people. Instead of bringing petrol and inflation and goods prices down, he continues to push them up with not only the war against Iran, but continuous attempts to impose new tariffs on imports, which pushes up prices and pushes up inflation. So rather than try to salvage public support for the Republican Party is instead stepping up pressure to be able to influence and tamper with and possibly rig the midterms themselves. So rather than improve the score, he's trying to meddle with the scorekeepers. He is proposing now to try to assert influence, federal influence over state run election campaigns rather than risk losing any support in these elections.
- [07:11]
B
Okay, well, I want to ask you a little bit about that because you've just written that Trump has even sent his Homeland Security secretary, this is Mark Wayne Mullen, to issue a threat to state officials that if they don't do what the White House wants them to do to manage the upcoming midterm elections, that the federal government will pursue them with fines and even prison terms. Now, I know you're not a legal expert, Peter, but can you answer?
- [07:32]
C
Absolutely not. I mean, no, no, I'm not an expert on anything.
- [07:34]
B
Well, I mean, listen, you and me both. But do you happen to know, is that even legal? Because, Cause like you've just said a bit earlier, I mean, the way these elections, it's a state. It's a state issue, the way these are run. Right. The president, as I understand it, has no power over the way state elections are run, if I'm correct.
- [07:52]
C
That's right. Well, what we hear from Mark Wayne Mullen. Mark Wayne tells us that the federal government will inform the states of where they see the risk of fraudulent voting and where the states should act. And if the states do not, then the federal government will pursue them with fines. And he said, depending on how far the fraud goes, prison time. Now, they have not specified, to get to your question, what they would charge those state officials with, what the crime that they would be charged with is to justify jail terms. So I presume they've got some White House lawyers trying to concoct something. Whatever they concoct would be contested in the courts, of course, if it comes to that. But it's an obvious attempt either way at simple intimidation of the states and the Congress to go along with Trump's will.
- [08:50]
B
I mean, that's probably the point, isn't it, you know? Cause it's going to get wrapped up in the courts anyway. And I guess even beyond that Tell us, I guess, about the ulterior motive, because you've written that all of this really is like a potential platform. Right. For annulling the 2028 presidential elections. Right.
- [09:08]
C
Well, potential being the key word there. It's still. It's. It's only potential. Potential that he will do these things that he's threatening to do. But he is threatening. They're. They're real and potential. And a potential.
- [09:20]
B
May I just say that a lot of people are openly fearing and commentating about like, it's not a fringe.
- [09:25]
C
No.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah.
- [09:26]
C
No. And as we've said already, this is not a man who's shown respect for electoral outcomes. None. No. And persists in fraud and lies of his own. So it's not shocking to observe that he's now trying to intimidate, pressure and affect the results of the midterm elections to favour himself and his party. But then, having done that, why wouldn't he, given that everything he's done, everything about him tells us he has no respect for the electoral process, why wouldn't he then want to continue that into 2028? A man who's often joked and sometimes apparently, seriously mused on the potential for staying on beyond the constitutional term limit, beyond the 2028 election. Why wouldn't he be considering that? Why wouldn't he use any potential impression he can create that this year's midterms are fraudulent, to then go on to say, well, that was a fraud. We can't trust the presidential elections in 2028, so I think we should annul these. We don't need them. I'm doing a great job as president. Everything's great. We have the hottest country in the history of the world. He keeps saying, best economy. You said that again last week.
- [10:43]
D
Yeah.
- [10:44]
C
Best economy, hottest country, everything is perfect, yet improving. So just leave me in power until we can sort out this electoral system mess. There seems to be a high degree of confidence or the assumption among Americans that Trump won't do that. It seems to be generally accepted that he will step down when the term expires. But looking at his history, his form, his mentality and his latest claims, I don't think any of us should be shocked now to. To think that he might want to stay on Beyond 2028. After the break, himself, in a moment of candor, said, I found out nobody cares and it's not illegal.
- [11:37]
A
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- [12:08]
B
And I want to ask you about something else you wrote because you've just been spoken about, I guess, statements he's made, moves he's made that I guess could be lumped into something of an authoritarian sort of vibe, I guess, worldview perhaps. Exactly. And you know, there may be listeners who are thinking, oh, but wait a minute, there's safeguards in the American system to stop this from happening that will prevent, say, Trump from serving an unconstitutional third term as president. But you've just written about recent ways in which Trump has flouted other presidential norms that, you know, perhaps lean on the authoritarian direction in ways that people might sort of not recognize as such. So can you just tell us about some of those recent examples?
- [12:48]
C
Well, in his first term as president, Trump was reasonably careful about conflicts of interest with his personal finances and the actions of his administration and put his businesses outside his own reach. Now, this term, he has done something. He has taken a step to protect himself against that accusation of conflict of interest, which of course is a form of corruption, because he's put his personal finances and business into a revocable trust. Previous presidents have put their business interests into an irrevocable trust where they can't see what's being done with their funding, their finances, which are managed by trustees, and they can't revoke the trust. The trust remains fixed for their term in power. Trump's is revocable. So he can do what he pleases, really, if he chooses to. But there's clearly a lot of double dealing, self dealing going on across a whole panoply of interest and investments that Trump has made. And himself, in a moment of candor, said, you know why he was less concerned about conflict of interest in this term? He said, I found out nobody cares and it's not illegal.
- [14:06]
B
Yes.
- [14:07]
C
So as a result, we see that his personal income last year rose from the Previous year's about US$700 million in a year to last year, his first year back in the presidency, US$2.4 billion in a job where the salary is 400,000 a year. The most recent from the last few days was an announcement from Trump Media, which he controls. He owns 41% of that. That company announced that they would soon be selling a little gadget software, gadget API that would be selling access to this for investors who want to get faster. Notice of his posts on Trump's social, his own social media feed where last month he posted more than six, something like 670 times in one month. Many of those posts affect markets. He comments on US Companies, businesses, industries. And ever since this war in Iran, his statements have affected the oil price every week, up or down. And so advance notice to these posts has a lot of market value attached to it. This is just the latest example of this obvious conflict of interest between Trump's official responsibilities as the president of a nation and his private companies opportunities to make profit from that position.
- [15:36]
B
Okay, so I guess to wrap up though, because you've written about other ways in which Trump is sort of perhaps trying to consolidate a form of authoritarian power in ways that perhaps on first glance don't seem like they are. Like they seem maybe vain or a bit silly. You know, like for instance, the coin that now has his face on it. But you say they're actually not. I mean they may be silly and they may be a bit vain, but you say they're not just vain and silly. Right.
- [16:01]
C
Well, certainly a lot of Americans are offended by some of the vanity projects that he's imposing on America. The announcement from the US Treasury a couple of days ago that they will be releasing a gold coloured coin, $1 coin with Trump's beautiful visage on it. His other vanity projects, some US passports are now being issued with Trump's face printed on them. The treasury tried to publish to print a two hundred and fifty US dollar bill with Trump's face on it, but the Congress blocked it. His projected his planned Trump ark, as it's called, to be built in Washington D.C. according to Trump, at least that would tower above every other monument. And the fact that big banners of Donald Trump, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 meter tall colored banners of Trump hanging on federal government buildings in Washington D.C. including on the Department of Justice, which is supposed to be an apolitical administrator of justice. Now that looks like it's got a Trump brand on the building.
- [17:08]
B
I mean it does.
- [17:08]
C
These are all vanity projects.
- [17:10]
B
And it also smacks of something that you might say see in Iran or in, you know, the Soviet Republic in those days.
- [17:17]
C
Exactly. In any autocracy really?
- [17:19]
B
Yes.
- [17:19]
C
Or in China.
- [17:21]
B
That's right.
- [17:23]
C
Now, you know, they are a bit trivial because they in themselves don't really change anything. It's superficial. But they're potentially useful to us because these point to his mindset, his imperialist mindset that I should have all the power. And he said so on the conflict of interest question, he said presidents can't have a conflict of interest. It's just you. It doesn't, can't be because I'm the president. It's like Nixon saying, if the president does it, it's legal. We now have Trump's.
- [17:55]
B
We know how that worked out for him though, so.
- [17:57]
D
Right.
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C
But Trump's having a lot more success in smashing through the traditional constraints every week.
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B
We have a Watergate era type scandal and it's a blip. So obviously it's a different.
- [18:08]
C
So just look at the last week. There have been three striking case studies in each of those. One each in each of those fields. Trump staking a claim to intimidate the conduct of the next elections, the midterm elections, and threatening to intervene and punish and send to jail state officials for not doing as he says to get the results that he wants. We've got another conflict of interest question with this selling of early access to Trump's social media postings. And then we've got another example of this self aggrandizement project with the gold coin. All of those are smashing through one way or another, precedent and constraint that other presidents have observed to get outcomes, to aggrandize himself and to advance his own power.
- [19:04]
B
You were just in Washington, D.C. for over a week and you told me before recording that at least among the people that you spoke to there and what you were sensing on the ground, that people are relatively numb now to what's happening. And so you wonder whether this is just going to give an air of inevitability to, okay, maybe we have an authoritarian now, like maybe that's who we are now.
- [19:23]
C
Well, the Democrats talk a good game about opposing him and winning, but there seems they seem still to be fumbling around to try and find an effective way of countering him. And yes, a lot of people, you use the word numbing. The shock value of Trump and his actions, his unconventional, sometimes even unconstitutional actions, seems to have been lost. A lot of people seem to be inured to this as a new reality that they just have to accept. So we'll see.
- [19:58]
B
Thank you so much, Peter, for your time.
- [20:00]
C
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
- [20:09]
B
In other news today, house prices in Melbourne and Sydney have fallen slightly, with median house prices in Sydney at about $1.7 million and in Melbourne a touch over $1 million. Meanwhile, prices in Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth have increased. New York Mayor Zoran Mamdani has challenged the US Federal federal government to execute an international arrest warrant against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, calling him a war criminal in a striking video statement. And at 75, Jackie Hudson will make her debut for Australia in lawn bowls at the Commonwealth Games. The great grandmother of two is one of Australia's oldest Commonwealth Games debutantes. You can read more@the age.comau or smh.comau Today's episode was produced by Chi Wong. Our Executive producer is Tammy Mills and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.
- [21:26]
A
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