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- [00:04]
A
As much as Australians love to hate Kyle Sandilance and Jackie O, who for so long ruled Australia's most expensive radio program, the implosion of their show is consequential. And not just in a business sense. Though if Sandilands is successful in the lawsuit he launched against his former employer this week, it could take down the entire radio network. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris and you're listening to the Morning Edition from the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, media writer Callum Jaspin on whether Kyle Sandilands might take his brand to another platform and turn it into a political force with an even greater focus on the grotesque. And what's happened to Jackie O. It's March 25th. Callum, welcome back to the podcast.
- [00:57]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [00:58]
A
Okay, this week Kyle Sandilands launched legal action against the radio company Arn for sacking him. Tell us, what is this stoush all about?
- [01:09]
B
Well, I think it can really be boiled down to a case of flying too close to the sun. Kyle and Jackie O have been a mainstay in Australian media for more than 25 years and for a big chunk of that, they've been some of the highest paid, yet most popular and controversial characters on radio.
- [01:29]
A
Australia's most controversial media performer, Carl Sanderllens has escaped punishment again for one of
- [01:35]
B
his offensive on air rap graphic conversations about sex. Plus female staff recorded using the toilet. And the boys will try and figure out whose FS made that wee the ACMA boss.
- [01:46]
A
And what exactly will it take for commercial radio shock jock Kyle Sanderlands to get the sack? In the past two days, sponsors have been deserting the Kyle and Jackie O show in droves after Mr. Sanderland's made some puerile sexist comments about a female journalist.
- [02:02]
B
Some fat slag on Telegraph website. Sorry, news.com has already branded it a disaster.
- [02:09]
A
A disaster.
- [02:10]
B
What a, what a fat, bitter thing you are. But a major part of their bargaining power has to this point been, well, if you don't want us, someone else would. The story's really ramped up in the past few years after the duo launched into Melbourne and they were handed an astonishing 200 million dollar ten year contract in 2023 by their employers, ARN Media. Now, the backdrop of this most recent stoush has been that since launching into Melbourne in April 2024, it really couldn't have gone much worse from both a ratings and advertiser perspective. And on February 20 this year, after Kyle had already that Friday morning clearly maybe woken up on the wrong side of bed. But he'd spent the morning berating the show's producers for not being up to scratch. And then later he turned his focus to Jackie O, accusing her of being off with the fairies while looking into astrology charts on that show relating to the former Prince Andrew Mount Baton Windsor. It's affecting other things. Like your fixation on this has made you almost unworkable. Oh, it's not that bad. You're not talking. I'm talking. That's not fair.
- [03:31]
A
Like, I.
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B
It's. But it's. But it's actually true. But you. You might have done that in five minutes, but you're off with the fairies with this. Tell me where. No, no, no. Tell me where.
- [03:40]
A
I've been off with the fairies during the show.
- [03:41]
B
I don't have to. I don't have to prove it.
- [03:44]
A
Accuse me of doing something.
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B
Listen to them. Listen to the program. You'll. Oh, no. Just give me one example. Be aware of what's really going on, Kyle.
- [03:53]
A
That I totally am offended.
- [03:59]
B
He sort of said live on air that everyone else is thinking the same thing in this building, you don't give a. Now, she didn't return to the show the following week and the week after that. On the Tuesday evening, ARN releases a statement saying that her contract had been terminated after she informed the company she could no longer work with Sanderlands. So I guess to sum up the show's success in Sydney over the past two decades, for anyone who hasn't listened but sort of knows the formula, I'll leave this to Kyle's lawyers. Now, this is an extract from his statement of claim filed to the federal court over the weekend. It was high energy and controversial, involving the broadcast, amongst other things, material that was irreverent and deliberately provocative, including using crude humor, ribald commentary and sexual innuendo. Banter and tension between Mrs. Sandilands and Ms. Henderson was a central dynamic to the show. Mr. Sanderlands generally performed the role of the dominant and abrasive personality who was deliberately outrageous and often offensive, whilst Ms. Henderson played a moderating role as a warmer and more emotionally attuned character. The statement of claim says.
- [05:14]
A
And so if I've got this right, Callum, is. Is Kyle Sandaland's main argument that essentially the ARN Radio network paid him for his out there behavior and therefore to sack him for that same behavior is invalid because he actually committed a serious misconduct or breach of contract. Like. Is essentially that what the judge is going to have to judge on?
- [05:37]
B
Well, again, it's hard to know, but if we're to take Sandilands lawyer's word for it, not only was that consistent with the past behavior, but he sort of claims that he was doing what was actually asked of him. Now, the contract says that Sandilands and his lawyers reckon that this was absolutely no different to the Kyle and Jacky O we've known for so long. And then, in fact, he, as we've all sort of said in the past, is that he's said and done much, much worse. His lawyers wrote that the exchange was congruent with the style, tone, nature of the show and the robust character that Arn desired. Now, that last word, desired, suggests this was a tried and tested formula that Arn had specifically asked for and Kyle was playing into it intentionally. They say there was no breach. And what does seem apparent is that while Kyle may have an argument, Henderson has now deviated and it's left all three parties in a tight spot.
- [06:33]
A
Okay, so that brings us up to today. We know that this fallout has just been a massive gossip story, but it's also a really unique business story. Tell us why.
- [06:43]
B
So, I. I don't think the stakes have ever really been higher for a media company than they are with this deal. And that's for any kind of media, let alone radio. This kind of money really is astronomical. Now, for the first time again on Monday evening, we got a bit of a look into the actual details of this contract. Now, Sanderlands claims he is still owed upwards of 85 million. There was a breakdown and in sort of just how he's paid. That included a $7.4 million upfront annual fee. It included a $200,000 per year consultancy fee, licensing fees, and a $120,000 per year flight allowance. Now, I think probably any listeners would probably get better bang from their buck than their Qantas frequent flyer points on that. But sort of regardless of what you think, radio hosts just don't have the same kind of cut through that they once did. As share of listening has been impacted by, you know, things like watching TikTok reels or listening to podcasts on Apple and Spotify and as part of that content has just become generally more globalized. But at the same time, Kyle and Jackie O, at the time of this deal, were becoming more popular. They got their best ever share result in the third share of 2023. And ARN had this unique opportunity and they wanted to make the most of it. So what they decided was they would take the show that was, you know, for 20 years dominant in Sydney to the three other markets that they had, the KISS network in that being Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide. Melbourne was the first one. Melbourne is the biggest radio market in Australia. So they thought, well look, if this show has been so successful in Sydney, we have an even bigger opportunity in Melbourne. But the important point here is that with $20 million per year, paying them this much would only work if the show is successful elsewhere. Because the money that you're saving on our talent, on production teams, individual marketing, less localized content, it can only be replaced if this show is a juggernaut and that that is replicated into Melbourne. Now, interestingly, there wasn't actually a heap of criticism of the deal at the time. I guess that says something about just how successful they were, that people thought that this maybe made sense. But in radio terms it's a little bit like having the AFL or the NRL in television. As long as you have them, you'll get ratings and therefore advertise the dollars. And without them you lose a potential massive audience. But it was maybe a bit presumptuous to assume that Melbourne would take to them and the numbers would simply be replicated.
- [09:26]
A
And we know that ever since Carl Sandlands's contract was torn up last week that the impact on Arn, it was just immediate, wasn't it?
- [09:35]
B
Yeah. To put it bluntly, it has torn apart Arn. The company is now worth less than a third of what it was worth when they handed them the deal on Monday. The company's market value dropped below 100 million. And it was only months after their sort of immediately disastrous launch into Melbourne that had flopped. We were reporting that ARM was preparing to make $20 million in cuts and cut 50 staff. These continued as advertiser share continued to fall. They've now cut more than 250 jobs since then and offshored several of their sort of more back end functions. The fact that the show never really got out of eighth place at breakfast in Melbourne meant that advertisers just went elsewhere. And this was obviously in combination with an activist campaign by the Mad fucking Witches. And all of that just really spelt this situation where things went from bad to worse. The show contributed to Aaron losing 16% of its metro advertising revenue in 2025 alone. That equates to 28 million. So the knock on effect of your breakfast show flopping, which is really meant to set up the whole day for a station, can't be understated. After the break, the View was sort of look, here's this crass duo who are going to come to Melbourne, they're openly bragging. Or at least Sandlands is about doing zero work to try and win over the Melbourne audience. They barely made a trip down to Melbourne and they want you to be aware of the fact that they're getting paid 10 million bucks each a year to do so.
- [11:16]
A
Okay, but what does it actually matter if this company tanks? Like, walk us through that.
- [11:20]
B
If we do get to a point where Arn is forced to pay out what Sandilands claims he's owed more than 85 million, it could prove existential for the company. And now that's important for a few reasons. One of them being that whatever you think of the Carl and Jackie O show, they are a uniquely Australian, well sourced, local piece of content that is coming out of Australia. And it's harder and harder to come by at the moment, as everything from talent to advertising dollars are scooped up by digital giants. And so with this court case potentially taking years, that time off air for both of them could prove catastrophic, particularly for Sandilands, whose daily broadcasts are almost the oxygen that keeps him relevant. And there's also an argument that this could be detrimental to radio overall. Their contract and popularity added to radio's relevance itself. And without them, hundreds of thousands of listeners who either listened to the show or cycled through several shows each morning on their way to work on the school drop off or anything like that could just switch to Spotify. And radio, in its essence, is built on habits, and once you kill those habits, which are much easier to kill than they are to build up, it could be hard to return.
- [12:38]
A
So you just said there that part of the reason it matters is because they were uniquely Australian and we know they've absolutely flopped in Melbourne. Obviously they were a huge hit for a hugely long time in Sydney. So do you think that they were sort of an iconic Australian brand across the nation on some level? Like, would you think they had that sort of importance in terms of the radio landscape?
- [12:59]
B
I mean, my view is that the duo are sort of emblematic of this sort of sense that Sydney is brash, it's in your face and it's a place where you flaunt your wealth compared to Melbourne, where if you're rich, you try and sort of play it down. And we sort of saw this with this contract. I mean, in Henderson's book, which was released a few years ago, after this deal was signed, she talks about them both wanting to secure this pie in the sky figure, which was $10 million each. Per year. I mean, it's pretty Rare that you get people talking about what their they view their personal value is in dollar terms so openly as these two could. And I think it's probably put a bit of a target on their back because previously in Melbourne people didn't actually pay that much attention to them. Like Sanderlands is obviously the host of Australian Idol, which is a show that obviously a lot of people watch, but the majority of Australians don't. And by the time the 10 year deal was announced alongside their launch into Melbourne, the view was sort of, look, here's this crass duo who are going to come to Melbourne, they're openly bragging, or at least Sandlands is about doing zero work to try and win over the Melbourne audience. They barely made a trip down to Melbourne and they want you to be aware of the fact that they're getting paid 10 million bucks each a year to do so.
- [14:21]
A
And I wonder if all this crassness and of course, you know, sort of telegraphing how much money they wanted to make and how much they're worth, do you think this has put an uncomfortable mirror up to Sydney society? You know, I mean, obviously they did really well here, but are they becoming more on the nose in Sydney as well, just for that crassness? Or is that who we are? Callum in Sydney?
- [14:43]
B
Look, I don't want to cast aspersions from, from down south because they might come across as biased, but look, it's, it's undeniable that since the show launched in Melbourne, they have lost almost 250,000 listeners by survey. So that's a number that sort of captures anyone that listened to the show during that period. So whether or not Sydneysiders have changed their attitude towards them, fewer people were listening by the end of the show in Sydney. And I think, you know, it's interesting in a sense where you. It's sort of like the analogy of a frog in boiling water, where they've been part of the furniture in Sydney for so long that their listeners are just used to it. And people that don't listen just go, oh, well, that's Kyle and Jackie. Oh, you'll get to know them or, you know, whatever you think of them. But this potentially shined a spotlight on just some of the content. And I think, you know, once you have a national media story, you start getting national media attention. And obviously the most, probably the most famous example is the competition where they tried to tell who was urinating by the sound of their urine on air. And there's countless examples, but it just sort of reminds people that this is what's on air. And look, I think if the show launched in 2026 or another show launched with the exact same content, that people weren't just used to it being written off as Carl and Jackie O, I don't think it would have lasted longer than a few weeks.
- [16:12]
A
And I think it is easy to sort of make light of the sort of behavior that Kyle Sandilands exhibited on the show. But it's got to be said that he did arguably pronounce some very intolerant views towards a number of communities. So it isn't all laughing matter. But I've got to ask, like, if someone like Kyle Sandilands isn't in radio, won't he just start a podcast or a YouTube channel? Like, is that, is that what we're likely to see?
- [16:39]
B
Well, I mean, Kyle very much could take his talents to YouTube. Now, Henderson, it sort of seems like maybe she is wanting to actually just take a step back from the public spotlight more generally. But, you know, a sort of comparable example might be we've seen one of Nine's most popular talents, Carl Stefanovic, launch a podcast this year as he seemingly tries to set himself up for life after television. Now, a lot of the stuff that goes on his channel is largely just interviews with right wing politicians and influencers. And this kind of stuff would need a lot more ring fencing on a licensed broadcaster, which, you know, there are rules that apply to both radio and to television. And the industry regulator has, has really sharpened its focus on ARN recently, but with fewer regulations. This means that whether or not you believe Stefanovic's beliefs, he's clearly identified that there's money to be made by pandering to a highly engaged, highly online audience. That really appears to line up with this sort of rise of one nation that we've seen at the moment. Now, I don't doubt Kyle does the same in terms of going down a political avenue, because I just don't think people would really take him that seriously in that sort of domain. But what we very well could see is his content move online and sort of veer further towards this sort of vulgar or at least pushing the limits a bit further in the future.
- [18:10]
A
And so, Callum, what happens now with the court case?
- [18:13]
B
So we've really not heard much from Henderson. She's been very quiet. She released one statement a few days after her contract was terminated saying that she didn't quit. She seemingly seems to be of the opinion that her contract, she wanted to keep her contract but do something else. Now, Arn seemed pretty confident of their decision to terminate Henderson's contract as well. What we understand was that there was a pretty extensive letter from her lawyers detailing the reasons just why she didn't want to work with Sandalands any longer. And because she was contracted to deliver the show with them, they just tore that contract up. Sandal and I guess, as things have always been, has sucked up a lot of the attention, naturally, because he's continued to be a lot more vocal while she has stayed quiet. Now, there's no knowing exactly how this court case will play out or even how quickly it will happen, but I'm sure Sanderlands will want a resolution as quickly as possible so that he can get back on air or in front of his listeners somewhere, wherever that will be. But whether a judge views this as being as important a priority as he does over another backlog of cases, we'll have to wait and see.
- [19:23]
A
Well, thank you so much Callum, for your time.
- [19:27]
B
Thank you.
- [19:37]
A
In other news today, Singapore Airlines will launch daily flights to Sydney's new $6 billion international airport on November 23, taking advantage of its curfew free status. Tesla is facing multiple legal actions in Australia over a claim it charged an Australian customer more than $10,000 for its cutting edge, fully self driving software, despite their car being technologically restricted from activating the autonomous feature here. And the ABC has scrapped its flagship current affairs program 7:30 on Wednesday night as more than 2,000 staff are expected to strike for the first time in 20 years. Today's episode was produced by Chi Wong, our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.