Rutger Bregman is the bestselling author of Utopia for Realists and Humankind: a Hopeful History. He has been profiled in the New York Times and interviewed on the Daily Show. Rupert Murdoch has been spotted reading his book, and Tucker Carlson called him a “fucking moron.”

I first came across Rutger years ago when a friend was reading Utopia for Realists. The book, which argues for UBI, open borders, and a 15 hour work week, intrigued me, but I’m ashamed to admit I haven’t read it.

He popped back up on my radar when he appeared at Davos, the annual gathering of the super-wealthy, and lambasted his audience for not talking about taxes. The viral moment he created led to an invitation onto Tucker Carlson’s show, where Rutger’s challenge to the Fox News host led to what can only be described as a meltdown. In our interview, Rutger goes deeper into the full story of both events than I’ve seen anywhere else.

We spend the bulk of the interview discussing his book Humankind, which argues that people are actually pretty decent, but power corrupts. This is one of my favorite books, and I can’t recommend it highly enough.

We wrap up with a discussion of Rutger’s relationship with effective altruism, the philosophy and social movement trying to do as much as possible to improve the world.

In particular, we discuss:

His career and the publication of Utopia for Realists
The unlikely success of the book
His trip to Davos
Making Tucker Carlson lose his mind
Veneer theory and why Rousseau is underrated
How people actually behave in disasters
Why carpet bombing cities backfires
Why distance kills
The domestication of humans
Why socializing makes us smart
The problems with Milgram's shock experiments
The replication crisis
Criticisms of Rutger’s portrayal of hunter gatherer life
His journey to effective altruism
His ideas for solving EA’s billionaire problem
His plans for an EA-adjacent book
The broader changes to EA over the years
Hijacking status for good
How committing your career to helping others might actually make you happiest

Links:

Discourse on Inequality

The Doomsday Machine

Violence

The Secret of Our Success

The Dawn of Everything

The real Lord of the Flies: what happened when six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months

The Possibility of an Ongoing Moral Catastrophe

Giving What We Can

Grilled

TMIPIK - Leah Garcés on Working with Factory Farmers to Help Animals

If You’re an Egalitarian, How Come You’re So Rich?

Famine, Affluence, and Morality

Yes, it’s all the fault of Big Oil, Facebook and ‘the system’. But let’s talk about you this time