The Moth Radio Hour: Confidence: Too Much, Too Little?

Summary

The Moth Radio Hour: Confidence—Too Much, Too Little?

Release Date: March 20, 2018

Host: Kathryn Burns
Stories Presented by: Aliza Kasmi, Dante Jackson, David Crabb, Sam Shepard, Sara Lee Nkintu

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Introduction: Exploring the Spectrum of Confidence

In this compelling episode of The Moth Radio Hour, host Kathryn Burns delves into the nuanced theme of confidence—examining both its excesses and deficiencies. Through a series of personal narratives, listeners are invited to explore moments of self-assurance, vulnerability, and the transformative power of finding one’s voice.

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1. Aliza Kasmi: Coloring Her Identity

Timestamp: [02:31]

Aliza Kasmi opens the session with a poignant story from her childhood that grapples with identity and self-confidence. At six years old, during a first-grade art project, Aliza aimed to showcase her newly acquired coloring skills with oil pastels. Confidently, she chose peach to color her face, mirroring her friends. However, her teacher, Ms. Harrington, unexpectedly rejected her choice, insisting that peach wasn’t her color.

“And suddenly I was re-energized. Yes, I was excited again and started my preparations.” ([26:16])

This incident left Aliza feeling confused and isolated, sparking an identity crisis that lingered into her adolescence. As she navigated middle school, Aliza grappled with racial identity and underconfidence until a defining moment on the sixth-grade prom night propelled her towards self-acceptance. Her journey underscores the delicate balance between societal expectations and personal authenticity.

“I'm Brown because I've worked so hard to love the skin that I'm in...” ([07:00])

Aliza's narrative culminates in her embracing her Afghan and Pakistani heritage with pride, illustrating how overcoming underconfidence can lead to a stronger sense of self.

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2. Dante Jackson: Breaking Free at Prom

Timestamp: [10:07]

Dante Jackson shares his transformative experience during his eighth-grade prom, a pivotal moment that shifted his perspective on confidence. Initially reserved and apprehensive about dancing, Dante feared judgment and preferred to remain in the shadows. However, prompted by relentless encouragement, he attended prom with his friend Shannon.

“So I try not to make myself look suspicious. So I start doing a little...” ([14:00])

As the night unfolded, Dante found himself reluctantly pulled onto the dance floor. What began as modest two-steps evolved into exhilarating dance moves he never imagined himself capable of. The energy and support from his peers ignited a newfound confidence, turning what he anticipated to be one of the worst nights of his life into one of the most memorable.

“It was like my life up until that point. I was locked in a dark room.” ([14:57])

Dante’s story highlights how stepping out of one’s comfort zone can unlock hidden potentials and foster lasting self-assurance.

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3. David Crabb: The Russian Spa Fiasco

Timestamp: [19:25]

David Crabb recounts a harrowing experience while hosting The Moth's debut show at the Sydney Opera House. Tasked with delivering a story on unprepared terms after a fellow storyteller dropped out, David navigates the challenges of underconfidence in an unfamiliar setting.

“I was really nervous about what was coming.” ([23:49])

His tale takes a surreal turn at a Russian spa visit, where a combination of unfamiliarity and overconfidence leads to an unsettling encounter. Amidst chaotic environments and questionable massage techniques, David faces a confrontation that tests his composure and self-assurance.

“Things are going to get worse if we don't leave.” ([29:32])

David’s narrative underscores the thin line between confidence and overconfidence, especially in high-pressure or foreign situations, illustrating how vulnerability can surface even in seemingly controlled environments.

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4. Sam Shepard: Overconfidence on Horseback

Timestamp: [30:14]

The legendary actor and playwright Sam Shepard delivers a riveting story from his acting career, highlighting the perils of overconfidence. While filming a chase scene in The Right Stuff, Sam insisted on using his own horse, Roni, believing his rapport with the animal would enhance the authenticity of the performance.

“I thought, I still like to use this horse because I really, you know, I insisted like an idiot.” ([34:53])

Despite assurances from experienced stunt professionals, unforeseen circumstances led Roni to veer off course, resulting in a disastrous accident that left stuntman Choo Choo Chambers injured. The incident not only caused physical harm but also served as a stark lesson in the importance of professional expertise over personal assurance.

“He breaks three ribs, broken collarbone, dislocated his hip...” ([41:00])

Shepard’s story is a testament to how overconfidence, even with good intentions, can lead to unintended and severe consequences, emphasizing the need for humility and reliance on experts in specialized fields.

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5. Sara Lee Nkintu: A Mother’s Confidence Liberates Her Daughter

Timestamp: [42:15]

Sara Lee Nkintu narrates a deeply emotional story about cultural expectations, forced marriage, and the empowering confidence of her mother. Growing up in a polygamous family, Sara Lee excelled academically, dreaming of higher education and a different life. However, her father’s plans for her to enter into an arranged marriage shattered these aspirations.

“I knew, being a businesswoman, she looked at me more as a commodity than a daughter.” ([48:00])

In a powerful display of newfound strength, Sara Lee’s mother defied traditional submissive roles to protect her daughter’s right to education. This act of courage not only prevented Sara Lee from an unwanted marriage but also set her on a path toward independence and academic success.

“She gave up what other women in our culture wanted. She gave up her marriage in fight for my education.” ([53:06])

Sara Lee’s story celebrates the transformative impact of a mother’s confidence in challenging societal norms, ultimately altering the course of her daughter’s life for the better.

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Conclusion: The Complexities of Confidence

This episode of The Moth Radio Hour masterfully weaves diverse narratives that explore the multifaceted nature of confidence. From overcoming internal struggles and societal pressures to the dangers of unchecked self-assurance, each story offers unique insights into how confidence—or the lack thereof—shapes our identities and life trajectories. Through vulnerability and resilience, the storytellers illuminate the delicate balance required to navigate the fine line between confidence and overconfidence.

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Notable Quotes

1. Aliza Kasmi:
   “I'm Brown because I've worked so hard to love the skin that I'm in...” ([07:00])

2. Dante Jackson:
   “It was like my life up until that point. I was locked in a dark room.” ([14:57])

3. David Crabb:
   “Things are going to get worse if we don't leave.” ([29:32])

4. Sam Shepard:
   “He breaks three ribs, broken collarbone, dislocated his hip...” ([41:00])

5. Sara Lee Nkintu:
   “She gave up what other women in our culture wanted. She gave up her marriage in fight for my education.” ([53:06])

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About the Storytellers

• Aliza Kasmi is a junior at Stony Brook University studying journalism, aspiring to work with NGOs post-graduation.

• Dante Jackson is a 2020-aged aspiring writer who, after his transformative prom experience, has continued to inspire young storytellers through The Moth's educational programs.

• David Crabb is the author of the memoir Bad Kid and a seasoned instructor in The Moth's high school program, with his second memoir set for release later in the year.

• Sam Shepard, the late actor and Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, shared riveting backstage stories from his illustrious career until his passing in 2017.

• Sara Lee Nkintu is a gender advocate focused on women’s rights and education, whose mother’s bravery ignited her own path of empowerment and advocacy.

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Production Credits

This episode was produced by Kathryn Burns, directed alongside Sarah Austin, Janess, Michaela Bly, and Katherine McCarthy. Additional coaching was provided by Dawn Fraser, David Crabb, and Melissa Brown. Special thanks to the World Science Festival and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation for their support. Music featured includes works by Regina Carter, Boombox Sade, and Stellwagen Symphonet. For more information, visit themoth.org.

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Note: All timestamps are approximate and correspond to the provided transcript.

Transcript

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[Kathryn Burns]

This is the Moth Radio Hour from PRX and I'm Kathryn Burns. Today we're going to hear stories about being self assured or not being over or under confident. For some people it's just about knowing who you are and who you aren't. That was the case with our first storyteller, Aliza Kasmi. We first met Aliza when she participated in our high school storieslam program which leads after school workshops for students around New York City. We liked her story so much we asked her to develop it for our New York main stage. She was the youngest person in the show by at least 10 years. All the older storytellers were beside themselves with nerves, but everyone noticed that 19 year old Aliza seemed completely relaxed. She was by far the most confident of them all. Here's Eliza Kasme live at the Moth.

[Aliza Kasmi]

So I was 6 years old in the first grade and I was sitting at a table with my three best friends and we were all really similar. All of our moms bought us clothes from the children's place and we all liked to play house during recess and all of our names started with the letter A. There was Ashaya, Amanda, Alicia and Aliza. And we were working on the Icebreaker project of the first grade which our teacher, Ms. Harrington, had assigned to us. And it was going to be self portraits so that we could hang them up on the wall and get to know each other's faces and names. And I was really excited for this project, and I knew it was really special because there were three drafts, and we were working on the final draft, which was going to be colored in. And I was super stoked for this, because over the summer, my mom had bought me this coloring book that taught me all these really great techniques for how to draw properly. And I finally mastered coloring inside of the lines. And I was so excited to show my friends my new skills. I was basically young Picasso. And I also knew this was a special project because we were using oil pastels. And I loved oil pastels because they're really soft. So I would pinch off a little bit and melt it between my fingers. And they were expensive for my public school in New York City. And so each table got one box, and each box had one of each color. So you had to be patient and wait for your color to not be used. And at this point, I had colored in my shirt blue, and the background green. And there was a little tree. And I had drawn in all the features of my face, which the book had taught me to do first. And I draw in my lips and my nose, and I was ready to color in my face. And all of my friends had used the peach oil pastel to color in their face. And since we were basically all the same girl, I figured I would use peach, too. Finally, when it was available, I picked it up, and I started drawing so slowly, going around my lips and my eyes and coloring in all one direction. And I was watching as the oil pastel melt into the paper and my face come alive. And I colored inside of the lines. And when I looked down, it was like I was looking into a mirror. This girl I had just drawn was exactly how I see myself. And I feel my teacher, Ms. Harrington, over my shoulder. And Ms. Harrington loved it when people drew well. And so I was getting ready for her to praise me, to say, aliza, that is the most beautiful self portrait I have ever seen. I'm going to hang it above my desk so everyone who comes in can see it. And instead, Ms. Jill Harrington says, aliza, that's not your color. And I'm confused by this, because I don't understand how colors can belong to people. But before I can find a way to ask her, she's gone to the oil pastel box and has started looking through it. And she doesn't find the color that she's looking for. And so she goes to the crayon bin. Now, every school had this infamous crayon bin that had bits and pieces of wrapped up and gross crayons that have been rolling around in that bin forever. And I never went to the crayon bin. But nonetheless, Ms. Harrington is rummaging through it and she reaches in and she pulls out this little nub of a brown crayon that's unwrapped and gross. And she hands it to me. And I'm still really confused by all of this, but I've noticed my friends are staring at me and my heart is beating really fast and I want this to be over. And so I just grab the crayon and I start coloring in my face. And I'm going in all different directions, except for the fact that wax crayon and oil pastel don't mix together. They don't belong on the same paper. So it doesn't matter how hard I'm pushing because I can't get the crayon to stick. And I'm coloring outside of the lines and. And when I look down at this paper, I'm this grotesque monster that can't decide if she wants to be peach or brown. And I want to beg Ms. Harrington, please don't hang this up. I'll do it all over again. I'll use the colors that you want me to. But before I can find the right word, she's taken my self portrait and put it into a pile with all of my even toned peach friends. And it gets hung up. And that night I go home and I ask my mom why I wasn't allowed to be peach. And she explains it as best as you can to a six year old who's just gone through an identity cris. And she says, you know, I'm not peach and your dad isn't peach, and since you're our daughter, you're not peach either. But this confused me even more because my parents are just like my peach friend's parents. They sound the same, they make the same small talk, but they're not the same. And everyone seems to understand this concept of color and I'm not getting it. And I don't want my mom to think that I'm stupid. And so I don't ask her any further. And I try to not think about it, but I didn't know where I fit and I was stuck in this color limbo. But I finally graduated elementary school and moved on to sixth grade and thought I had left this whole concept of colors behind me. And so on the first day of sixth grade, I was really excited. It was a brand new start and we were all trying to get to know each other by asking questions like where did you go to elementary school? And what's your favorite book? And this one kid comes up to me and he says, what race are you? And I had never been blatantly asked this question before. And so I didn't have a prepared answer. And so I thought back to Ms. Harrington in that brown crayon. So I told him I'm brown. And he gets this confused look on his face and he says, what do you mean you're brown? Brown isn't a race. And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that I had finally said I'm brown. And it started and then this little six year old girl deep inside of me gets really angry and then I get really angry and then I'm screaming at him and I said, you know what, if I say I'm brown, then that's it. I'm Brown. And he never spoke to me again, which was fine because I had finally found the words to stand up for myself and I'd finally come to terms with who I was. I want to say that was the end of it. That because I was okay with who I was, that I never had to stand up or defend my race again. But that just was wasn't true. I was growing up in post 911 New York City, where being Brown put me in this category of others. And I had been questioned about who I was many times after that. And I had to reaffirm over and over that I'm brown. I'm brown. I'm brown because I've worked so hard to love the skin that I'm in and nothing anyone can say will take that away from me. And today if you asked me to draw a self portrait of myself, I would draw a confident young woman who's proud of her Afghan and Pakistani heritage, who is a proud American. And I would find the most beautiful soft oil pastel to color in my face. No one would have to tell me to pick it up. And it would be my first choice. Thank you.

[Kathryn Burns]

Aliza Kelly Asmi is a junior at Stony Brook University where she's studying journalism. After graduation, she hopes to do press work for an ngo, but she says that really she'll go wherever the wind takes her. Our next storyteller, Dante Jackson is also someone we met in our high school program. Katherine McCarthy is manager of that program, and I asked her about Dante. She said it was our very first story slam there, a packed black box theater in the basement of the school. Dante had never spoken in public before and was really nervous, but you can hear how he gained confidence as he told the story and fed off the energy of the audience. Here's Dante live at the School for Classics in the East New York neighborhood of Brooklyn.

[Dante Jackson]

Okay, well, back in middle school, I wasn't really the type of kid to let myself have any fun. I was afraid that if I let myself have fun, I'd end up being judged. And I don't like being judged. So eighth grade comes around, prom is coming up, everybody's talking about it. Hey, you going to prom? I'm going to prom. You know, what you wearing? You know, who you going with? Oh, I know what I'm going with, but me, I, I wasn't planning on it. I didn't really want to go. I thought I'd just skip it. I thought I'd just end up being a kid in a corner, chicken in hand, just standing there. So after being constantly bugged by friends and family, I decided, you know what, what the heck, might as well go. So let's just hear what it's going to be about. So graduation and prom was on the same day. Graduation was early on in the day. We sang Celine Dion. I hated it. So I go home, I get dressed, I throw on my suit, have my little fedora on, you know, stunting. So I'm going to my friend Shannon's house. It's a block away from my house, not far. She lives next to this daycare I used to go to. There's a family of Trinidadians. I've known them since birth. They're like my second family. We're all outside chilling. My mom's taking a bajillion pictures. You know how to get around this kind of time. And yeah, so, nor typically, well, I should say first that Shannon, Shannon comes outside and typically she's a tomboy. She's usually just here, shirt, jeans, sneakers, that's it. But she comes out, she got her hair down, she got her little white dress on, she got the real huge hoop earrings, you know. So now I'm standing here, I'm like, huh? Well, now, so we, we get in the truck, it's about a 15, 20 minute drive, not very long. I get there, all my friends stand outside. Hey, Dante. Hey, you decided to show up. I'm like, hey. So I go inside. The space is a little Bit smaller than I thought it would be. Granted it's not a lot of us but it was pretty fancy looking. I thought it was a good place to be. Music starts playing. Everybody's on the dance floor. I'm in the corner, standing there, chicken in hand. I had a few people come up to me and try pull me on the dance floor but I wasn't moving. I was not moving. I wasn't moving for anything but chicken. So the DJ decides to put on this song and now he's saying, you know everybody that's not dancing gotta grab em, grab em, pull em on that dance floor. Anybody you see anybody standing on the wall, you gotta grab them, bring em on the floor. So immediately 20 heads come at me and try to drag me onto the dance floor. And at this point I'm just done fighting it. I'm like, you know what, what the heck, I'm just gonna go on that dance floor. I'm gonna have a good time. I'm standing awkwardly in the middle of the dance floor, just looking around. So I try not to make myself look suspicious. So I start doing a little.

[David Crabb]

I.

[Dante Jackson]

Started doing a little two steps. This is where it was at. So gradually over time I start getting more into it. The little, the little two step turns into a little, turns a little to a shuffle and that shuffle turns into a crisscross and that crisscross turns into God knows what. I don't even know what I was, I don't even know what I was doing anymore. I just know that I'm on fire and I'm busting moves I never thought was possible for me. And I wasn't aware of this until I took the time to look around and I'm stuck in that little circle they make. Everybody's like hey, go Dante. Go Dante.

[Sam Shepard]

Hey.

[Dante Jackson]

So. And it turns out that was one of the best nights of my life. It was like my life up until that point. I was locked in a dark room. But then I decided to unlock the door and I took a step out and I learned how to dance.

[Kathryn Burns]

Dante Jackson is now a 2020 year old aspiring writer. To see a video of Dante busting a move while telling this story, go to themoth.org both Dante and our first storyteller, Aliza have stayed involved with the moth long after they graduated high school. They've each told their stories to hundreds of middle and high schoolers around New York City, hopefully inspiring confidence in a whole new generation of storytellers. Coming up, a man's underconfidence gets him in trouble during a visit to the Russian spa. And later, a young Sam Shepard's overconfidence creates havoc on a film set when the Moth Radio Hour continues The Moth.

[Sara Lee Nkintu]

Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented.

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[Sara Lee Nkintu]

PRX.

[Kathryn Burns]

This is the Moth Radio hour from prx. I'm Kathryn Burns. In this show we're hearing about confidence. And our next story is about what can happen when you're under confident. Our storyteller is David Crabb and he told the story while hosting the Moth's debut show at the Sydney Opera House. We were there launching the Moth in Australia and one of our other storytellers dropped out last minute. We were literally on the other side of the world where we knew almost no one. So we panicked. We said, david, you're already hosting. Is there any chance you have a story you could tell? And he did. Here's David at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney.

[Apple Representative]

So I'm going to tell you a little story. We get warmed up for two more storytellers. And when I think of the Razor's Edge, another thing that it makes me think of is just in general, just tension. How many of you guys like massages? I got ruined on massages. It was my partner and I's like two year anniversary and he said, why don't we go get massages and we'll just spend the day in the spa. So we went to the Russian Bass in the East Village of New York where everyone knows it's a spa on a budget, but it's fine. And we walked in and the thing that greets you when you walk into the Russian bath is a very angry old Russian woman. She looks like she's made of pudding and moles. She greets you behind a sort of steam filled deli counter, just violently shoving carrots into a juicer. Just raa. Like, welcome to relaxation. Like she's just like, oh God, get me out of here. So we ran past her and down the stairs and we signed in and we went, we changed into our shorts and we weren't downstairs for five minutes before we were approached by this giant Russian man with these tired gray eyes, eyes that have seen things. He came up to us in this big oversized white robe and he had a clipboard. And he's like, you two want special service? And we were like, yes, we do. It was terrifying. We just agreed. And he started rambling off. All these special services, but in Russian, confusing. And finally we were like, massage, we just want massage. And he was like, massage, I will come get you. And he said it like a threat with a pen, you know, you're going to get rubbed, you know. So we go about Enjoying the spa. And we go to this one steam room. And in New York, I feel like everyone has made a contract with each other to act like things in New York are normal when they are not. I remember my partner and I once ate, like, a different anniversary meal as clearly, somewhere near us, a rat was screaming in a glue trap. And we were just like, it's just a rusty hinge on something. I love you. And when we're in this, like, spa room, you go in and you expect some sort of duct system with steam coming through. But when you go in, it's just this concrete room. It looks like a place you would wake up in one of those Saw movies. And there is a crack in the concrete. It looks like Armageddon in, like, a parking garage wall. And loose steam is just, like, hissing out of it. You don't know where it's from. Is it sewage steam? Who can say? But, ah. Ah, fabulous. We're in this room with these two other girls when the big Russian man comes in. And he has a big plastic bucket. You know, one of those buckets. It's so big, it has, like, a drawing of a baby in it. They're like, beware of your child's around this bucket. It's a huge ass bucket, and it's full of what looks like shards of glass. And he has a giant sort of dead feather from some kind of animal. And he comes in and he's like, Jennifer. And very sheepishly, a woman curled up in the corner with her friend is like, me. Jennifer is directed to stand against the wall like Guantanamo Bay. Like, she literally, like. And this giant Russian man proceeds to dip this weird dead feather in what is like, rock salt and lash her, lash her, lash her, because it's Russian and it feels good. And I'll always remember at one point, it's happening, and she turns and she looks at her friend, and she's like, Stacy. So a little bit later, the giant man, he comes to us and he's like, Jack and David. And we're like, okay. So we follow him, and we follow him up these stairs, and we get to this long hallway. And it's a hallway that doesn't have real walls to make the rooms. It has those little sort of shades that women change behind in old movies. It folds out so you can hear the stereos playing in all the massage rooms at the same time. And it's this eerie cacophonous. Like, there's throat singing and whale songs and a harp. It's like it's the most Awful sound ever. And as we're walking down the hallway, it almost seems to get, like, longer. Like, I feel like, have you guys seen Poltergeist? Like, when the mom runs down the hallway.

[Kathryn Burns]

Caroline.

[Apple Representative]

And it just gets so long. I felt like that because I was so nervous about what was coming. We finally get to the end of the hallway, and the big Russian, he looks at my partner and he's like, jack, you come with me. David, you go with Ivan. And I turn around, and there is Ivan. Ivan is a little bit taller than me. He is covered in muscles that I didn't know men could have. He is in a way too short white robe undone way too low, with, like, a medallion resting in, like, the perfect amount of chest hair, giant pecs. And he's like, david, my name is Ivan. Come with me. And I'm like, bye, Jack. Happy anniversary. Bye. Bye. Bye. Jack loves when I tell this story. So I go in this room with Ivan, and it's very dim. There's candles lit, and there's the big sort of padded massage table with the donut. And he tells me to get on my stomach, and I put my face through the. You know, through the donut. And then he says, I just have one question for you, David. As far as your massage, do you want soft or do you want hard? And I'm like, soft. Just give me the soft one, please. I don't need just soft. Swedish, Swedish, Swedish. And then the lights get even dimmer on the floor that I'm looking through. I'm looking at the floor through the hole, and then I hear a click. And in the corner of the room begins, I gave you all the love.

[Aliza Kasmi]

I tried I gave you.

[Apple Representative]

This is no ordinary love. And Ivan begins to touch me, and he's like. And he's pushing, and it's nice, but it does feel a little hard. You know, it feels more like a sport massage and less like a Swedish massage. But I'm, like, dealing with it. And after about five minutes, just when I get used to it, the song fades down. And then the next Sade song, I guess it was the greatest hits.

[Aliza Kasmi]

Smooth Operator. Coast to Coast, Elite to Chicago.

[Apple Representative]

By the way, Sade doesn't really understand geography. I mean, there's a lot more past Chicago. That's all I'm saying. Costa, Costa. Like, visit America. We'll help you, Sade. I only hear about 30 seconds of this song because then all of a sudden, there's no hands on me. And then I hear click, click.

[Aliza Kasmi]

This is. No.

[Apple Representative]

I'm like, okay, he likes that song. He wants to hear that one again. No problem. He doesn't like Smooth Operator for some reason, but he loves an ordinary love. Rubbing, pressing a little hard, but it feels good. SONG FADES DOWN Smooth operator. Click, click. I'll give you all the love Hands back on me. All right, Surely we can't hear the song more than a third time. THE SONG FADES Smooth Hands off. Click, click. I'll give you all the love I try to get. And it goes on like this to the point that, like, I know exactly five more minutes of my massage. Like, I can't even get lost in the time, you know what I mean? Because I'm like, no ordinary love is telling me. I'm 25 minutes into to my hour long massage. And if I do the math correctly, I'm hearing this song seven more times over and over again. This is no smooth apple click. This is no costa costa click. This is just endless over and over again. And then finally, when I'm like the 10th or 11th play, the massage is sort of building in intensity and all of a sudden, sudden I feel this force on my body that I've never felt. And I hear my spine go click, click, click. And I'm like, I didn't know my body could do those things. And I take my face out of the little donut and I look up and Ivan, in this soft massage, is walking on my body with his hands on the ceiling. And our eyes meet and he's like, don't look at me. And I'm like, oh, God, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Aliza Kasmi]

I'm sorry, Ivan.

[Apple Representative]

And I'm like, my God, if this is the Swedish, what is the sport? You just get punched in the face repeatedly, then beaten with a hot mallet. Like, what happens in that one? And is it also to Sade? Finally, the massage ends and the lights come up and I get up and I feel just like a busted noodle. I feel insane. And when I look around the room, it's like 200 frame photos. And it's mostly Ivan with the actress. Time Daily. Do you know who that is? Cagney and Lacey. And it's her through every era of her career. Like 25 years of time Daily. And the weird thing is, in a very sort of Dorian Gray way, Ivan looks the same age in all of them. Very bizarre. And he just very proudly, as I'm like, trying to make my body work again, gestures, he says, time Daily number one client. And I'm like, bye, bye. I'm going I run from the room. I come up, I see my partner Jack above me, like hobbling. And he looks at me with an urgency that's like, let's get out of here. Things are going to get worse if we don't leave. And we just rush from there. And we rush by the woman. Thank you for coming. Like, no, thank you. That was many years ago. Our 12 year anniversary is coming up in February. We are getting married in November. Thank you. And we're going to do something very special for ourselves. And it will not include the Russian baths, but it might include Sade.

[Kathryn Burns]

That was David Crabb. David is the author of the memoir Bad Kid.

[Sam Shepard]

He's.

[Kathryn Burns]

He's also a teacher who has served as an instructor in our high school program. He actually helped coach Eliza's story about the crayons that we heard earlier in this hour. David's second memoir comes out later this year. Not long after he told this story, he and Jack were married. Although they've never returned to the Russian baths, Sade still holds a very special place in their hearts. Personally, I can't hear a smooth operator without picturing David's face in that massage table donut.

[Aliza Kasmi]

No need to ask.

[Apple Representative]

He's a smooth operator.

[Kathryn Burns]

Our next storyteller is the late actor and Pulitzer Prize winning playwright Sam Shepard. He told the story at a night we produced with the World Science Festival way back in 2008. This hour is all about confidence. And this is a story about what can happen when you're a bit overconfident, confident. It feels fitting that the theme of the night was toil and stories of experiments gone wrong. Here's Sam Shepard live at the Mock.

[David Crabb]

I'm not a scientist, I'm not a mathematician or I'm very flattered to be here with these distinguished people. I wish I had some of the credentials they have. I thought maybe some of it might rub off on me. Also, I want to make it clear that writing and oral storytelling are not synonymous. In fact, they have little to do with each other. And the third thing was that in the program I noticed that it had said that all five of the storytellers have been well coached in this. And I want to make it clear that I haven't had no coaching at all. So anyway, back in the early 80s, I shot a film which some of you may have seen called the Right Stuff in the Mojave Desert out in California. And when I got the script, in fact, one of the main reasons I did it was that there was this great chase scene at the Beginning on horseback, galloping and that. The character I was playing was chasing his wife horseback across the desert, you know, figurating through the cactus and stuff. And I thought, wow, that's great. I'll do that. And at the time, I was still trying to make an honest living. I had a couple of rope horses, and I was team roping and doing jackpots and stuff like that. And I thought, well, I'll use one of my horses, which, you know, I got along with very well. I had a roan gelding called Roni, and I thought, this is a nice horse, you know, I can get along with him. So I went to the director, long story short, and said, could I use my own horse in this sequence? And he said, sure, bring him. Not being a horseman himself. So, first day of shooting, I show up on the set out in the Mojave with my horse trailer and my horse and my truck. And I'm not met by the director. I'm met by the head wrangler and the stuntman, two legendary guys. The stunt guy is called Choo Choo Chambers. So I step out of the truck and Corky steps immediately. I understand there's a little attitude thing here, you know. He says, we understand. We want to use your own horse. I said, look, is it okay? You know, I mean, I like the horse. You know, I get along with it. The problem with it is that he's a red roan horse. They said, what's the. Well, we don't have anything to double you. In other words, they don't have a horse that looks like this horse so that when the stunt comes, they can put the stuntman on the horse that looks like my horse and they'll be all right. And I said, well, shoot, I still like to use this horse because I really, you know, I insisted like an idiot. And so Choo Choo says, well, is it okay if I get up on your horse and see what he's like? I said, sure. So he gets up and goes off and he does figure eights and circles, backs him up a little bit and stops him. And the horse is fine. He's great. You know, he gets off him. He says, it's okay, but I just want to tell you, we have a serious stunt to doing this, and the insurance company is not going to let you do it, because, first of all, you can't do it.

[Kathryn Burns]

Which is.

[David Crabb]

Which is true. And anyway, he said, okay, well, we'll see if we can get along with your horse and we'll do it, okay? So next day, I show up and we do the galloping sequence, which is beautiful. Everything works great. Everybody loves the dailies. The footage, you know, it looks good. And chasing my wife through the desert, and it's all picturesque. And comes time for the stunt. So this is a pretty hellacious stunt. Involves my character. I mean, in a film, you don't notice that it's not me because they hide behind hats and everything. Choo Choo is chasing my wife. And he heads toward the saguara cactus, which I don't know if you guys are familiar with it being they're gigantic cactus. They're the biggest cactus on Earth. You've probably seen them on cover of Arizona highways or something. They look like big green men. You know, they have arms like this. So he's supposed to crash into this cactus and get knocked out of it, flips out of the saddle and gets his leg caught in the stirrup, which is all part of the stunt. And then dragged about 25 yards, and the stirrup breaks away. And he's fine. He's safe and everything. But the stunt looks horrendous. And the way they do it is they cut the arm of the cactus off and they shave off all the spines and everything so that the stuntman doesn't get them in his face. And they put a balsa wood dowel in the arm that's sawed about a quarter of the way through. And they stick it back. This is the scientific part here. I try to work all this stuff in. And then they stick the arm back onto the body of the cactus, the main body of the cactus. And to the untrained eye, you can't tell that it's not a real cactus. So anyway, when he hits the arm of this cactus, it snaps off because the dowel's in there and it breaks free. And it looks as though he's actually hit the cactus, where, in fact, it's nothing, you know. And then he does his stunt and it's all over. Well, anyway, Choo Choo gets up on Roni and he lopes out there to do the stunt. And I'm really kind of anxious about it. And he breaks him out into a wide open gallop. He's headed straight toward the saguaro cactus. And as he's approaching the last few yards to accomplish this stunt, the horse looks down and he sees a big black electric cable about the diameter's about like that, which runs from the generators back to the lights. And he knows that that's not supposed to be in the desert. And he thinks maybe it's a snake. I don't know what he thinks, but Elroni leaves the ground in mid. Like all four legs come up away from this cable and consequently smashes directly into the trunk of the cactus, missing the arm completely. Chichu flips out of the saddle, but rather than breaking loose from the stirrup, he's dragged maybe 150 yards through really rough terrain. I'm, of course, completely aghast at this. I'm watching it live and everything. He goes to the hospital. He lost half an ear. He hit the true. To this day, he only has half an ear. But these guys are what they call blood and guts stuntmen, and this is the reason they're called that. He broke three ribs, broken collarbone, dislocated his hip and had serious lacerations. I'm completely. I can't believe it. I go visit him in the hospital, and this is part of a stuntman's bread and butter, you know, I mean, they spent a lot of time in the hospital. Anyway, I go, I go in and he's all bandaged up and he's laying there and, you know, limbs are this way and that and everything. And I apologize deeply for the horse's behavior and. And he said, you know, being a good guy that he is, he says, ah, these things happen, you know, Sam, he says, but, you know, I'll tell you what, that might be a nice team roping horse. But he can't dodge a cactus for. So that was virtually the last time I tried to use my own livestock. And it was a lesson well learned, you know, but that's pretty much the only accident that I have in the scientific area.

[Kathryn Burns]

Sam Shepard was an actor who starred in the films Days of Heaven and the Right Stuff and the TV series Bloodline. He was one of the most influential writers of his generation who wrote more than 50 plays, including True west, fool for Love, and the Pulitzer Prize winning Buried Child. He died in 2017 at the age of 71. Coming up, a young woman in Kenya thinks she's heading for boarding school until she realizes her father has something else in mind. That's next on the Moth Radio Hour.

[Sara Lee Nkintu]

The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, and presented by the Public Radio Exchange. PRX.org.

[Kathryn Burns]

This is the Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Kathryn Burns. Our final story is from Sara Lee Nkintu. We met Sara Lee in one of the Moth's global community workshops on women and girls that we held in Kenya. After the workshop Sara Lee developed her story for a night we produced for the 71st UN General Assembly. Here's Sara Lee live at Leifen Center.

[Sam Shepard]

When I was young, I grew up in a polygamous family. My father had two wives and they were typical homekeepers. My mother was very submissive. I don't remember seeing her in any disagreement with my father. Even when she had a different opinion, she would just give in. And my mother was very hardworking. She used to go to the gardens every morning and would come back in the evening. That was her day routine. I loved her, but I never wanted to be like her. I didn't want to be a gardener. I looked up someone different. My auntie, who is the sister to my father, was a businesswoman. She used to go to attend to her businesses every day. And she had a daily income. She always had cash on her. I admired her. I wanted to be like her. As a young girl, I remember was so bright. I used to come in the first position for all the seven years of my junior school. I loved school. I loved studying. I always dreamt of the day I would graduate from university. But it seemed so far away. One Saturday, just like the other usual Saturdays we used to go for farming. But this particular Saturday, my father asked me to stay home and do some house chores. A thing that excited me. I hated farming. Standing under the sun all day. Gardening was not my thing. So I jubilated. It was a blessing in disguise. Later in the day, the rest of the members came back from the gardens and my father called me. He told me to go prepare myself because my auntie was coming with visitors. And by the mention of my auntie coming with visitors, I was so excited because this particular auntie had promised to take me to a boarding school. So I knew this was my time. This was my day. I went and started preparing myself. But while at it, deep down me, I got sad because I was going to leave my mother. I did not want to leave her. But again, something else told me. You have to do this, Sarah. If you want to liberate your mother from the gardens, you have to go and study hard. And suddenly I was re energized. Yes, I was excited again and started my preparations. While in the bedroom preparing and packing my clothes, I heard a knock at the door. And it was my mother. As she walked through the door, I note sadness in her eyes. I note sadness on her face. And I asked her, mom, why are you sad? Are you not happy for me? Don't you want me to go to a boarding School. I am not going forever. I'll come back and check on you. But in a very sad tone, she told me, my daughter, you're not going for school. You are going forever. You're going to start your own family and you're going for marriage. I asked her, mom, why, where to who and who planned this? I asked her a lot of questions, but she never answered any. We all broke down in tears and she walked away. As I was trying to wake up my soul from this very bad dream, I heard another knock and it was my auntie. She walked in so excited and told me to hurry up, go greet the visitors because they had come. I looked at her in disbelief and I asked her, auntie, is this the boarding school that you promised me? Are you throwing away my education? But she told me, no, this is even better than a boarding school. This is the best option for you. Things are going to be fine. But I did not believe her. I knew, being a businesswoman, she looked at me more as a commodity than a daughter. She was more concerned with the dowry, with a bride price that they were going to pay in exchange for my hand in marriage. I felt so betrayed, but worst of all by the person that I looked up to, by the person that I admired. I felt disappointed that at 14 years she wanted to marry me off. I couldn't believe her. I pulled myself together and went to the sitting room. I greeted the visitors. My father asked me, sarah, are you ready to go with this man now? I kept thinking to myself, is my father serious? He has already invited the visitors, the money is already here, and he's asking me whether I am ready. Do I have a choice? Why didn't he ask me before? As I kept thinking this, all this was running through my mind. I heard a voice from the side of the corner of the house and it was saying, no, my daughter is not going for marriage until she finishes school. When I looked, it was my mother. My father backed at her and said, woman, who are you to talk back at me? Don't you know your position in this family? I said, she has to go. But my mother answered in a very strong voice and said, no, she's not going anywhere. Our culture is so funny. Women are supposed to be submissive to the men. There is even a saying that when a man says something, a woman should not object and a woman should not talk back at a man. But here we are. My mother, who I always knew to be very submissive, had finally gathered strength to talk back at my dad. She surprised me. I Didn't expect this from her. At this point in time, it was a whole lot of chaos. The visitors walked away and our dad told my mother, if she's not ready to let me go for marriage, we have to pack our bags and leave the house. Leave the home. It was clear now we had to leave this home because my mother was not about to give up. We packed our bags and ready to leave. As we are stepping out of the house, I got so scared. I did not know what was coming next. Yes, I did not want to go for marriage. But again, I was not sure going with my mother was the best option. I was not sure going with her I would continue with my education because she did not have any source of income. We moved into a future that was not clear at all. But we kept going. We left and stayed at a friend to my mom. And when finally my mom gathered some little money, we moved to a rented house and we started life with a single mother. Life was not easy at all. It was hard. It was a challenging life. My mother used to. Was used to a life where she was being provided for. And here we are. She was the only provider of the home. She worked so hard, did different kinds of petty businesses to look for money. She sold samosas, she sold clothes. And worked at school as an office messenger, trying to raise money to look after us, to take me to school. And this continued after a year. One day my mother called me and she told me, sarah, I have gathered money. I want to take you back to school and to a boarding school. I got so excited. She did it. I doubted her, but she had made it. She brought my dreams back alive. I got so proud of my mother. At first I thought I would liberate her. But guess what? She had liberated me. She gave up what other women in our culture wanted. She gave up her marriage in fight for my education. My mother, my hero. Thank you.

[Kathryn Burns]

That was Sarah Lee Nakintu. Sarah is a gender advocate who works on rights and education for women and girls. We spent this hour hearing stories, stories about confidence. And I love how by finding her confidence, Sarah's mother changed the trajectory of her life. And about her mother. Sarah says she's now a college teacher as well as a laboratory technician. In fact, in our district, she's the only female laboratory technician. I am so proud of her. That's it for this episode. We hope you'll join us next time for the Moth Radio Hour.

[Sara Lee Nkintu]

Your host this hour was the Moth's artistic director, Kathryn Burns, who also directed the stories along with Sarah Austin, Janess, Michaela bly and Katherine McCarthy. Additional coaching in the Moth Community and education programs by Dawn Fraser, David Crabb and Melissa Brown. The rest of the Moss directorial staff includes Sarah Haberman, Jennifer Hickson and Meg Bowles. Production support from Timothy Lou Lee. Special thanks to the World Science Festival David Crabb's story was produced in partnership with the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. The Moth would like to thank the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation for their support of the Moth Community program. Moth Stories Are True is remembered in a by the Storytellers. Our theme music is by the Drift. Other music in this hour from Regina Carter, Boombox Sade and Stellwagen Symphonet. The Moth is produced for radio by me, Jay Allison with Vicki Merrick at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. This hour was produced with funds from the National Endowment for the Arts. The Moth Radio Hour is presented by prx. For more about our podcast, for information on pitching your own story and everything else, go to our website themoth. Org.