Sarah Austin Janess (6:30)

Zaina Tasema lived in the D.C. area for 20 years, but she's now in Atlanta, Georgia, facing her biggest fear of grad school. She's happy to say she and her siblings have all grown into functional adults. Even after this episode with Daddebe, Zaina told me that whenever she's babysitting a child who's acting up, she'll say, if you don't behave, I'm gonna call Dedebe to see if it works. But it never does. The kid always asks who Dedebe is, and then she tells them, which defeats the whole purpose when face to face with a choice, we can be scared of risk and stepping into the unknown. Diane Castile, our next storyteller, explores this she told us at a story slam in Chicago, where we partner with public radio station wbez. And a note. There's a quick mention of sex in the story. Here's Diane.

Diane Castile (7:40)

It was a Friday night pizza night in our house, and I was making a salad when my husband came home from work. I looked at him and I was seized by a longing so sudden and so intense, it literally made me dizzy. Right then, practically right there, we had sex, which is par for the course when you're young and dating, but we've been married nearly 20 years. Afterwards, when he could catch his breath, he said, where did that come from? I've been wondering the same thing myself. Now, I was at the age where you sometimes miss periods. It's called perimenopause for you youngins. So the next month, when I didn't get my period, I thought nothing of it. When I started feeling a little queasy in the morning, I dismissed that, too. I was under a lot of pressure. But the day I put a T shirt on without a bra and my nipples hurt, I said, oh, shit. I had just celebrated my 46th birthday. This is crazy. I thought, I cannot be pregnant. I have my children. They're 10 and 13, and I am done. Sure, a Few years ago, I really wanted a third, but I talked myself out of it. Too old, too broke, too overwhelmed. And I remember some reading I had done that said the odds are infinitesimally small of getting pregnant at 40. So six years down the road, I figure it's about as likely as an immaculate conception. This is what I told myself as I drove to Target for a pregnancy test. I felt so stupid even getting the thing. I put it in the cart and then started throwing in all this other stuff. Tube socks, flashlights, Massimo jeans. Anything to give the impression that I was just a normal suburban housewife shopping for her family instead of a 46 year old woman who may have gotten herself in trouble. So I get home and I cannot take the test. I am too scared. I'm thinking, I cannot be pregnant. I'm 46 now and by the time it's born, I'll be almost 47. So I hid it in the bottom of my sock drawer. Sometimes that helps. Well, it lay there all day long, all night long, beating like the Telltale Heart, you know, like that freaky raven squawking Livermore. So finally, the next morning, I could not take it. The minute my husband left for work, I jumped out of bed, ran to the bathroom and peed on the stick. And as I'm putting it on the counter, you know, to wait for the, what, five minutes it's supposed to take, I see out of the corner of my eye of the red line. And I don't mean just red, I mean stoplight red. Like siren red, like rr. Pregnant, pregnant.

Sarah Austin Janess (10:42)

Nevermore.

Diane Castile (10:46)

I call my husband at work. Now, he's a high school teacher, so this means taking him out of a classroom of teenagers to receive the news. And I'll never forget his reaction. One word, really happy, Hopeful. His spontaneous, honest reaction was one of joy. I slapped that shit right out of him. I said, don't sound so happy. I can have a baby.

Tito Chavez Nguyen (11:13)

I'm practically 15.

Diane Castile (11:18)

Oh, he says, sorry about that. My mind started turning on me. I really went to some very dark places. I actually for a while, consoled myself by thinking, maybe I will lose this baby. This is the hard part of the story to tell. And for those of you out there who have gone through that, I beg your forgiveness. But it just shows you how powerful fear can be. Anyway, eventually I made an appointment with my midwife. And the first thing she says is, diane, how did this happen? And I'm like, are you kidding me? You don't know? This is why people don't go to Midwives. She told me, you know, I was healthy, it'd be fine. But she did recommend a test for birth defects that you can take as early as 10 weeks. And when I'm filling out the form to take this test, there's a section for your age. The Last category is 40 to 45. There is no 46. Hey, I said this form discrimination against women in their 50s. Anyway, she called me a few days later with results. The baby's perfect, she said, a little girl. And like that, that's what this pregnancy, this problem became. A little girl. My daughter, Catherine Grace. I wanted an unusual name. Catherine Grace turned 10 a few months ago. And now all I want to do is turn back time. The pregnancy was a breeze. She was the easiest baby, and I had more fun with her than I think I've had with anybody my entire life. And those fears mostly just noise. Be careful of that noise. It seems to get the loudest right when we're on the threshold of what it turns out we really want. Thank you.

Sarah Austin Janess (13:28)

That was Diane Castile. Diane is a writer and three time Moth Story slam winner. She's also the producer of First Person Live, a storytelling show in Chicago's northwest suburbs. Diane told me that beyond the fear of health complications, she worried that at 47 and as a new mom, she wouldn't be able to handle the demands of a baby. She thought she'd be mistaken for the baby's grandmother, that the physical toll would be too much on her body and that she wouldn't have any mom friends because she was, quote, old. But she says none of this came to pass and it turned out to be the best time of her life. She said her daughter Catherine is very strong willed, very confident and self possessed, and they consider each other soulmates. After our break, a story of channeling Bruce Lee on the elementary school playground and a story about avoiding the talk with your kids at all costs when the Moth Radio Hour continues.

Rufus May (15:01)

The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, and presented by prx.

Sarah Austin Janess (15:10)

Fall is in the air and I'm breaking up my wardrobe for the change of season. I take stock of what fits, what I still like and what I still need to update my wardrobe and feel comfy and beautiful this time of year. As the weather turns cooler, I'm looking forward to seeing the leaves change color, making chili and slipping into a cozy sweater from Quince. Quince is known for their Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. And it's not just that all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I love Quince's Mongolian Cashmere full zip up hoodie in the matching cashmere sweatpants. I have them in black. They're so soft, so chic, so affordable and honestly perfect for Zoom meetings and my travel. For the Moth. They can't be beat. Get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials. Go to quince.commoth for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commoth to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commoth OMG yes is a website of new findings from the largest ever research study into women's pleasure and intimacy. In partnership with IU and Yale researchers, they asked tens of thousands of women what they wish they and their partners had discovered sooner. And then they found the patterns in those discoveries. The physical techniques, mental techniques and communication techniques. And all that wisdom is organized on omgyes.com as hundreds of short videos, animations and how tos. It's warm, honest and completely un seedy, if that makes sense. But most of all, it's eye opening. I've spent a lot of time on OMG yes. And it really does feel empowering to see these experiences and techniques detailed so openly without any blushing or shame. What they're doing is long overdue. See for yourself@omgyes.com that's omgyes.com this is the Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Sarah Austin Janess Our next story in this hour, express exploring dread and trepidation, was told by Tito Chavez Nguyen at a Grand Islam in Portland, Oregon, where we partner with Oregon Public Broadcasting. Tito's parents died when Tito was very young and he lived in different homes as he was growing up. The story takes place as Tito is trying to find his way. Here's Tito Chavez when live at the Moth.

G (17:54)

I take my first step onto the mulch. My suit uniform is fresh pressed and I tighten up my belt. I've seen this battlefield a dozen times before and I look to the high ground on the mound. There's the structure, there's five guys there. I've trained extensively for this event. I march forward and we lock eyes and there's pure silence. It's just me versus them. I choose to break the silence. I say, hey, come down from those monkey bars. So just for a little bit of context, I'm eight years old. I've traveled all around the southern states, particularly rural places. I'm one of those People from a situation where I'm really a branch grafted onto a different family tree. There's always a different family. There's always a different town. There's always a different school. But the thing that always stays the same is recess. Time becomes my war zone. I take a step onto recess every single time. And I go to the monkey bars because that's my favorite. And I'm immediately punched, pushed, yelled at, made fun of. Secluded into a different part of the yard. But this time, it's going to be different. I'm living in a different place. Not in the south, in Maryland, in a place called Tawnytown. You really should just change the A to an I, just tiny town. But I'm there. It's summertime. It's a couple weeks out from school, and I've been staying up late. And I see on the TV something I've never seen before. It's really late. There's some weird stuff that goes on, and I love it. There's a guy on the screen who looks like me. He's smart, confident, sexy, even a little bit dangerous. And it's in the best movie of all time. It has danger. It has an awesome villain. It has fights. You've probably heard of it. Enter the Dragon, starring Bruce Lee. So I watched this thing 20 times in a row. I love this film. And there's a scene in particular that it's my favorite thing ever. Still to this day. Bruce Lee's on a boat and he's being bullied, taunted. And he says, hey, what's your martial arts style? And Bruce Lee turns to him and says, my style. It's the art of fighting without fighting. The guy looks confused and challenges him to a fight. Anyways, Bruce Lee says, yeah, let's hop on this smaller boat and go to the island. The guy says, sure. Goes onto the boat before he realizes there's not an engine, there's no paddles. Bruce Lee pulls the rope and drifts him off to sea. Wins the fight without even throwing a punch. Damn, that's smooth now. I've seen this so many times. I'm just starting to ask the guy taking care of me, Chuck, to do martial arts classes. That's all I want to do. So every 15 minutes for the next week, I just ask, hey, I would be really good at this. I should learn how to fight. There's great discipline in martial arts. That's definitely what I need. And he eventually relents. I go into my first class. I get the cool uniform with the cool belt. And I do the 45 minute class. I come out of it, I've inherited 2000 years of combat knowledge. I'm the baddest kid in the world. No one can stop me. I know this. School starts. I sneak my uniform in my backpack. Things go according to plan. Class happens. The bell rings. It's recess time. I go to the teacher. This is my first illegal thing ever. I go to the teacher's desk and I grab a Sharpie and I go into the bathroom. I put on my uniform. I get my white belt out, tie it around my waist and start painting it with a Sharpie. It's cool, it's fine. No one will know. Now I go into recess and all the teachers know how cool I am because they're all smirking and kind of chuckling because they know, like, wow, I've learned some stuff. All the other kids in the playground are wide eyed. They know I'm a bad, bad kid. So this brings me back to those five guys looking at me. And I say, hey, do you want to see a front kick? And their eyes just bug out, their face contorts. I've seen this. I know this intimately. It's a face I typically have whenever I go into recess. It's terror. It's being scared. And I think back to Bruce Lee saying, my style, it's the art of fighting without fighting. And I look at them and I say, hey, do you want to see how to do a front kick? I can show you. It's really cool. And they're quiet, they're whispering to one another. And then they start all running right at me. And I close my eyes and I think, this is where I get my black eye again. Now I open up my eyes and they're to the left and the right of me. And they're looking at me and they're like, hey, yeah, can you show me that front kick? And I, like, smirk a little bit. I'm like, oh, yeah, I can show you this. And this is one of those moments where I know things can change again. I say, yeah, let's do that front kick. But you have to promise we have to go to those monkey bars afterwards. And with that, I do my first front kick with a new group of friends. I take one step with a new group of friends, and I finally get to swing on some monkey bars with some friends.

Sarah Austin Janess (23:45)

That was Tito Chavez Nguyen Tito describes himself as an Asian Latino and a global tumbleweed. The events in this story happened over 20 years ago, and these days, Tito still loves Bruce Lee. Films. But he now avoids all kinds of fights, even verbal ones. He's a peaceful soul. In fact, when I tried to let him know his story was going to air on this radio hour, he was at a silent meditation retreat. Do you have a story about being face to face with something that scared you or avoiding what you fear at all costs? Or really, any personal story that matters to you, we'd love to hear it. You can record your pitch right on our site or call 877-MOTH. That's 877-799-6684. The best pitches are developed for MOTH shows. Next in this hour of things We're Afraid of is Patti Arrow. Patty told the story in Seattle, Washington, where we partner with public radio station kuow. Here's Patty live at the mall.

Chelsea Short (25:03)

So my dog and I have a ritual. Well, it's kind of a ritual. I have a ritual. I go to the pet store about once a month and I buy the biggest bag I can carry of organic lamb and rice senior formula dog food with glucosamine and chondroitin. And I bring this thing home and I say to her, you have to stay alive until this is all gone. And I'm serious about this. This dog was 15 years old in April. And I need her to live a long time. I need her to live because I do not want to have the talk with my children. You know, the talk. My daughter is six. My son is four. And I have been thinking for six years about this talk. You see, I, too, am an atheist, so I am bereft of that beautiful narrative that we're all familiar with of what happens after you die. So I don't know what to say at all. Which is why when one night we were putting the kids to bed, we heard this sound in the living room. Like, we raced out there and said.

G (26:36)

Chicken bone, chicken bone, chicken bone.

Chelsea Short (26:37)

We left the dinner on the table. So I raced the dog to the animal emergency hospital in the middle of the night, where they were able to sedate her and get the chicken bone out with forceps. And it only cost $300. I got off lucky, you see. The second time Sophie got a chicken bone, they had to call in the scope driver who had to come in, wake up from his bed and come to the veterinary hospital and drive a little mechanical hand down her esophagus and retrieve the chicken bone. So that night I said to her, you better live until this credit card is paid for. When the cat died, I did not tell my children for three weeks. It happened the Night before Valentine's Day, what are you going to do? Like, here's your heart shaped pancake, by the way, Charlie's dead. And then once you started faking the cat being alive, there's really hard to get out of it, you know, it was easy. Charlie is Grandma's cat. Grandma and Charlie live downstairs. And he really didn't like the children anyway, so they were used to going for long periods of time without seeing him. And then one day, you know, we're at breakfast and the nanny says, oh, by the. And I said, she's like, you haven't told them yet? I haven't told them yet. So that night I vowed, I'm going to tell the children about the cat. And I psyched myself up and I told all my friends at work, this is it. We're telling them about the cat. So that night they came home from school and I said, scarlet, honey, I have sad news, honey. Charlie died in the night. And she said, mommy. And I said, I know, honey. And she said, can we get a kitten? And her brother said, I want a black kitten. And Scarlett said, I want a white kitten. Let's get two. And the conversation. Then the sad news was, we're not getting a black kitten or a white kitten. Disaster averted. But it wasn't long before I was faced with this question again. Last month, we traveled to Oregon to attend the funeral of my beloved uncle. And at the family dinner where everyone was gathered, my cousin, whose father had just died, said to Scarlet, it's okay, honey. Uncle David's up in heaven having his second life and he's up there with his dad and his mom and everyone else who's already dead. And we're all gonna see him up there. And I froze like a deer in the headlights. Thank goodness. My son, meanwhile, had gone out into the driveway and had gotten in somebody else's car and was honking the horn and I just ran. Oops, gotta get the boy. For the next few weeks, my daughter was telling me about the second life up in heaven. And I was like, I don't know what to say. I've been trying all this time to construct a narrative, something that's beautiful and magical and compelling. Like that narrative. So far, all I have is we are made of stardust. Any suggestions would be really welcome here to finish that up. So I continue to work on my narrative and in the meantime, I keep buying that dog food because she's going to live a little bit longer. Thank you.

Sarah Austin Janess (30:30)

Patti Arrow is a writer who lives in Seattle. She refers to Sophie as her Dear Obedient Dog because Sophie stayed alive until she was 16 and a half. I'll save you the math, that's almost 116 in human years. That's an old dog. You can see a photo of Dear Obedient Sophie if you go to our website themoth.org Patti said when she told this story her biggest fear was coming out as an atheist. She said it was a big moment to get up on stage and confess that in front of the Moth audience. She told her kids that she actually doesn't know what happens when we die and that some folks believe in heaven and reincarnation. But she likes to think that when we die, all of our atoms will mix with other atoms in the world and be used to create something or someone new. She said. There are things in life we just can't protect our kids from. Fear of death is a big one. After our break, two final stories. A split decision is made when a driver is pulled over by police and a psychiatrist reveals a long held secret that may threaten his career when the Moth Radio Hour continues.

Rufus May (32:14)

The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented by the Public Radio Exchange.

H (32:23)

Prx.Org@The moth we love sharing stories and every dog has one. With the Embark Dog DNA test, you can discover your dog's full breed, story and ancestry. Let's be real, some people have spoiled their dogs with every toy imaginable. Embark is the perfect gift for the dog parent who has everything. I received an Embark test last year and discovered that my little guy Chester was not a miniature pinscher after all, but actually a mix of Chihuahua rat, terrier and dachshund. And it's not just about their breed. Embark also screens for over 270 genetic health risks, so you'll know what to look out for down the road. The best part? It's really simple. You just swab your dog's cheek, send it in, and in a couple of weeks you'll get the full report on their breed and health. To uncover your dog's unique story with Embark's dog DNA test, head to embarkvet.com and use code MOTH to save $65 on Embark's breed and health test and get free shipping again. Visit embarkvet.com and use promo code MOTH to save $65 on Embark's breed and health test today.

I (33:28)

With big wireless providers, what you see is never what you get. Somewhere between the store and your first month's bill, the price you thought you were paying magically Skyrockets. But that doesn't happen with Mint Mobile. You never have to worry about Gachas ever again when they save $15 a month. When you purchase a three month plan, they mean it. So I have this friend with Mint Mobile and she will text me back from anywhere. The other day I texted her. She was taking a selfie in the ocean and she texted me right back. You can get $15 a month for three months with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mint mobile.com moth that's mint mobile.com moth Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at Mint Mobile. $45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details.

Sarah Austin Janess (34:38)

You're listening to the Moth Radio Hour from prx. I'm Sarah Austin. Janess.

Chelsea Short (34:43)

Chelsea.

Sarah Austin Janess (34:44)

Chelsea Short told this next story at a Moth Islam in Washington, D.C. where we partner with public radio station WAMU. Here's Chelsea Short live at the Moth.

Tito Chavez Nguyen (34:59)

Hi, everybody. I often joke that my real father is the Dos Equis spokesman and the most interesting man in the world. I know you could tell from the bun, the man bun that I'm wearing. It's not because my father was not in my life. He was, of course. It's just that my father never really accepted me as a young queer kid. Like, a young masculine kid. So, like, whenever I would ask, like, dad, hey, can I, can I get one of those pocket knives you got my brothers? My dad would be like, no, right? Or, hey, dad, that flag football looks really fun. Can I try it? I see my brothers are doing it. And no, right? So I thought, oh, the Joe Sekis guy, He can teach me everything I need to know about being masculine, right? Just get the hair, get the clothes, just be the best dancer. Like, try to learn languages. Know like a few phrases in each. Just. Just be as interesting as you can and then you'll have it. You'll be the perfect stereotype of masculinity. You'll be charming. You'll always have something smart and fun to say. Perfect. But that's not it, right? My dad did a great job of raising me. He gave me so much. He definitely sat me down and gave me all the talks I needed with my mom about, yes, being a black woman. You have to be twice as good to get half as much. When I started my journey as a young adult, I kind of thought, all right, I got it. I'll do it all. If you've seen me before, you might know that I'm a stand up comedian. Well, one night I was coming back from a stand up show in Arlington, and I was driving home on Rock Creek Parkway to my apartment in the city. And I was driving along. And if you know Rock Creek, it's dark, there aren't that many streetlights. It's like one. It's one lane, some spots. And I was driving along and whoop, whoop, police lights show up in the back of. In my rearview mirror. And I got immediately really nervous because this was actually the week after Philando Castile was murdered and the week after Alton Sterling was murdered. And it hit me all at once that this was the first time I was being pulled over, appearing as masculine as I've been. And just because I kind of got that feeling that this guy had been following me for a while. Because if he was following me for the reason I thought he was, I had done that several miles ago. Okay, so why is he pulling me over now? Something's wrong. Something's wrong. And the place where he pulled me over made me nervous, too, because, yes, everybody was nervous, especially with interactions with cops, black people, interactions with cops at the time. And the place where he pulled me over in Rock Creek park, there was no space for cars to safely pass him. There was no overhead light. And I know that when a police officer is feeling uncomfortable, the likeliness of me getting injured goes up. So I was super nervous. And I realized my dad did not prepare me for this. And how could he have known that I would be in this situation when he thought that I was always going to be his little girl? So I did everything I overheard my father tell my brothers to do. All right, get your wallet out. Put it on your thigh. Put your hands on the wheels. Don't move. Turn off the music. Turn off the car. Came up to my window. He was like, hey, whatcha doing? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And he asked me for my id, my registration. And this is something that sickens me to this day. He reads my license, and he clearly wasn't paying very much attention to it because he says, okay, Mr. Short, I'll be right back. And I pitched my voice up, and I said, oh, no, it's Miss. It's Miss Short dressed completely like this. I mean, he should have been confused. But the thing that makes me Sick about it is that my instinct was to hide, to hide my gender for survival. And even now, looking back at that time, it strikes me how tough it is to be a black person, to be a queer black person in this world. That's always changing, that's changed so much since I came out, since I was a kid, to how we respond to, to queer people, to being trans. There's so much about survival here that's instinct and luck and that I tried to hide my gender, hide it in black femininity, which has didn't save Sandra Bland. And why, why did I come up with that solution? It's just, I guess it came from fear. The next day I posted on Facebook about what had happened to me. And I had the most amazing reaction. Everybody that said something loving and compassionate, they were all black men who had been through a similar experience and were welcoming me into this twisted brotherhood. And it was like masculinity come full circle. Thank you.

Sarah Austin Janess (40:33)

Chelsea Short is a standup comedian, writer and actor based in Washington D.C. i asked Chelsea if they still reflect on this night and the instinct to identify as female. Here's what Chelsea I think about this.

Tito Chavez Nguyen (40:54)

Experience quite a lot. I don't like that I so quickly gave up on all the hard work I had done on myself and with my therapist to identify as non binary. But an illogical survival instinct kicked in. There are. There are so many examples of the police treating black women and girls with excessive force. But in my panic, I didn't remember any of those. Black men's interactions with the police often get more news coverage. And black women's traumatic experiences with police are often underacknowledged. I thought femininity would save me, though I knew and know that the performance of femininity doesn't work for black women the way that it works for white women. So since that night, I've spent a lot of time thinking about pride. Specifically that it is more than just a party or, you know, one weekend a year, but in action and a commitment to truth. I know the next time this happens to me, I want to and I will make a different choice to take pride in myself.

Sarah Austin Janess (42:13)

That was Chelsea Short. It's time for our last story in this hour about fear and trepidation. Rufus May told this at a moth night we produced along with the Edinburgh Book Festival where the theme was hearing voices. And while this story is exactly on theme, you will also hear that there were lots of fireworks going off outside the theater that night. But don't let the noise scare you here's Rufus May live at the mall.

J (42:57)

So I'm in a phone box in the south of France and I'm phoning Professor Mary Boyle. She's head of the clinical psychology doctorate at the University of East London where I've been studying for three years. I passed all the course and the placements and she's quite an intimidating woman. She's somebody I respect greatly. She's written a book called Schizophrenia A Scientific Delusion. Really challenging the idea that we can know anything scientific about people's intense confusion and we need to look in a lot more creative way at these experiences. The phone rings, she answers. She doesn't suffer falls gladly. So I'm a little bit scared. Hello, Mary. I say, hello, Rufus. She says, hello, I was wondering if there was a student who had had mental health problems in the past, but when he got to the course he not mentioned it when he started the course and I know it's a dismissal offense not to mention it on the Occupational Health form, but he just thought he might get discriminated against so he kept quiet about it and then he wanted to be more honest. Now he's close to qualification. She said, rufus, are you talking about yourself? I said, oh, yes, Mary, I am. She said, well, it shouldn't be a problem. She said, what was the mental health problem? And I said, well, they gave me a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Oh dear. She said, I was thinking, Mary, think of your book. You know, it's a delusion. And I said to her, look, I had some problems when I was 18, I haven't taken medication since the age of 19 and I really want to train as a psychologist. I don't have to keep this secret anymore. She said, rufus, you really shouldn't have lied. I said, well, Mary, I'm not sure I would have got to where I am today if I hadn't have lied. One of my more sanctimonious moments. She said, well, I want to support you, we want to support you, but we're going to have to take this further. So they spoke to the Occupational Health Department and the Occupational Health Department said, well, what do you think? Do you think he's worth standing by? And they said, yes, we do. And they said, well, we'll have to talk to his GPS. So they wrote to my GP and my GP wrote a report saying that at the age of 18 I'd had a nervous breakdown related to family related stress and it had psychotic features. I thought, oh, that sounds good. That sounds a lot better than schizophrenia. I wish they'd have told me that at the time. What they told me at the time was that I'd have to take medication for the rest of my life, that I had this lifelong illness and that I needed to lower my expectations of what I could achieve. I was a bit rebellious, so I didn't believe them. I got through. I had a clean slate. I could now be open. Mary and the team supported me and I qualified and I got a job in East London. And I wanted to be honest, but I didn't know how to bring that part of me in. I'd hoped in psychology I could bring it in as a form of wisdom, but there never seemed a place for it. Personal experience just didn't seem to fit in there. A year later there was a conference and they really wanted to hear stories of people coming through what's seen as severe mental illness. And so I wrote and applied to give a talk and they took a risk, they'd never heard of me. And I got to give a talk about my journey and how I worked as a professional. I wanted to bring the two things together. How what I'd experienced in psychiatry, heavy drugs, no talking, a bit of doom and gloom and a bit of occupational therapy, how that had influenced me and what I had found helpful and how I worked with people. And before I gave the talk, it was really important to look like I was sane. So I wore my best shirt. I did a few press ups beforehand, a bit of yoga to look serene. And there was a woman next to me, Sandra Escher. She's like the fairy godmother of the Hearing Voices Movement. The Hearing Voices movement is like a network of self help groups for people who hear voices. She was next to me and I told her it was my first ever talk and she was really nice. And as I was giving my Talk, there was 150 people there. And I was talking about people who'd helped me and inspired me. And one of the people I was talking about was my mother. My mother had had a brain hemorrhage when I was 11. And together with my dad and family and friends, she'd done lots of exercises. I'd seen her make a real strong comeback from her brain hemorrhage. And I was talking about that, how it inspired me. And I paused and Sandra Escher said, you're doing really well. And something inside broke and I just started to cry, which was a disaster. I wanted to appear sorted. That's how we're trained in clinical psychology, to appear like a sanity consultant, you know. And not only was I crying, There were sobs, I couldn't speak. And I looked to the audience, to my friend for support, and to my horror, she was crying too. So I thought, I'm going to have to leave the stage. And I just said offhand, really, someone help me out. And a guy stood up at the back and started clapping and then everybody started clapping and I could breathe and the sobs subsided and I could carry on. So I finished my speech and I felt like I brought these two parts of my life together, the professional and the personal. And I felt like I'd spiritually come home. It was valued, finally. And when I got to work after the conference and obviously I kept quiet about this, so they didn't know. And then they did know. And some of the professionals, they were uncomfortable. One therapist said to me, this kind of thing is best left on the therapist's couch. And somebody else was honest enough to say, I feel really intimidated by you. And I'm sure when people do come out, they are a bit intimidating when you're sort of suddenly, you know, mad and proud, you know, and. And I got a bit of a reputation and I got a bit of media coverage and people knew about these kind of two parts of my life. Often there was some coverage. And a few years later, I was working in Yorkshire and a junior doctor came to see me. Her name was Ruth, and she just wanted to meet someone, another health professional who also had mental health problems. And how do you manage that? We had a chat and then a week later she called me up to say she'd been suspended from her medical training because she'd had a period of depression six months before. She'd been hospitalized for a month and she was horrified. She was so passionate about becoming a doctor. And then a week later she phoned me up again and said, I've started hearing a voice and the voice is telling me to kill myself. And I said, we better meet. I've been working a lot with self help groups around hearing voices. And a few days later I had a dream I knew about a bomb being put in a grocery store and I didn't say anything about it. And then the bomb went off and I woke up feeling the most immense amount of guilt. And I interpreted that dream. There might be other ways to interpret that dream, but I interpreted it as if I didn't reach out to Ruth, I was going to lose her. There's a high suicide rate amongst junior doctors anyway, and she was under tremendous pressure. She knew that if she told her doctors she heard voices, she'd Definitely lose her career. She was too junior to get the support she needed, so I agreed to confidentially support her to learn how to manage the experience. We tried lots of things. She did many different approaches, including self help groups and using nature, using exercise. One of the things we did was I talked with her voice and I'd only just learned this technique. And one of the tough things about voice hearing is no one else knows what you're going through. But this technique, we ask somebody to sit in a different chair and be a spokesperson for, for the voice. Now, I would probably. I'm a bit more skilled in these dialogues and I would ask why, you know, what pain are you holding onto that makes you so angry? Is there anything we can do to help you? But I didn't know how to do that stuff then and. But we didn't try to get rid of him, but we tried to strengthen Ruth so she could get on with her life and she managed to make compromises with him so she could. And she got back onto her training. You can see voices as often carrying painful experiences, parts of people carrying terrifying experiences that have been shut away. And we need to help people both set boundaries with them, but also help those parts come to some peace. So I guess I just wanted to share those ways to speak our truth and face our demons.

Sarah Austin Janess (54:03)

Rufus May is a clinical psychologist who manages the Inpatient Psychology Service in Bolton, Lancashire. He's still passionate about holistic and creative approaches to mental health problems and he uses dance, martial arts, drama and drumming in his work. For more information on his training workshops and free resources, visit them. The links are on our radio page. We were all concerned about the discrimination that Rufus faced and I asked if these days the field of psychology is more understanding. Rufus said the climate has changed a bit, but it's his opinion that only a few clinical psychology courses welcome applications from people who've had personal experience with mental health problems. Rufus says these days he doesn't hear voices, but he still volunteers with the Hearing Voices group he mentioned in the story. He talks openly about his experiences and he's happy to say he's well received by his colleagues. Remember, you can share these stories or others from the Moth Archive and buy tickets to Moth Storytelling Nights in your area through our website, themoth.org. find a show nearby and come out to tell a story. That's it for this episode of the Moth Radio Hour. We hope you'll join us next time. And that's the story from the Moth.

Rufus May (55:40)

Your host this hour was Sarah Austin. Janess. Sarah also directed the stories in the show along with Meg Bowles. The rest of the Moss directorial staff includes Katherine Burns, Sarah Haberman, and Jennifer Hickson. Production support from Emily Couch. Moss Stories Are True is remembered and affirmed by the Storytellers. Our theme music is by the Drift. Other music in this hour from Stellwagen Symphonet, Blue Dot Sessions, Abdullah Ibrahim and the Silk Road Ensemble. You can find links to all the music we use at our website. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by me, Jay Allison with Vicki Marek at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. This hour was produced with funds from the National Endowment for the Arts. Moth Radio Hour is presented by the public radio exchange prx.org for more about our podcast, for information on pitching us your own story and everything else, go to our website themoth.org.

Diane Castile (56:46)

Cascade natural gas believes a warm home, hot water and natural gas energy should be available to everyone. That's why Cascade Cascade established the Oregon Low Income Bill Assistance and Energy Discount Programs. These programs provide income qualified applicants a discount on their monthly bill and, if needed, help with past due balances. Qualifying for assistance is easy by calling Cascade or any of our partner community action agencies. Get complete bill assistance info@cngc.com help.