Jennifer Hickson (14:57)

That was Dr. Ray Wynn Grant. Ray is a large carnivore ecologist. She uses field biology, statistics and mapping to track how human activity influences carnivores. I consider her pretty fearless because Ray has studied black bears in the western Great Basin, grizzly bears in Montana, and African lions in rural Kenya and Tanzania. Ray has lots of selfies with animals most people, me included, consider ferocious, but she always looks calm and in control cause she is. To see some of her pictures and learn more about her work with the Museum of Natural History and National Geographic, we'll link to her site@themost.org where you can also find a link to share this story when we return, a trip to Mecca and the awkwardness of trying to make new friends as a grownup.

Angelica Lindsey Allee (16:10)

The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented by prx.

Progressive Insurance Ad (16:19)

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Grace Topinka (17:18)

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Jennifer Hickson (18:22)

This is the Moth Radio hour from prx. I'm Jennifer Hickson. We're listening to stories about being seen and being understood. This next story comes from Angelica Lindsay Allee, who we met in Arizona where she now hosts the Phoenix Moths Story Slam. With support from public radio station kjzz, Angelica told this story when she visited us in New York City. Here's Angelica.

Zakiya Minifee (18:52)

A little over six years ago I got an invitation to take a five day desert vacation where I would sleep in tents, stand in line with thousands of people and use squatty potties. This wasn't Coachella. It wasn't Burning man either. And my first response was oh hell no. Because I was eight months pregnant and I don't like people that much. Especially not when I'm eight months pregnant. And the idea of living with thousands of strangers in the desert didn't appeal to me, But I said yes, because this was the trip of a lifetime. This was hajj. Now, hajj is one of the five pillars of islam. It's a pilgrimage that thousands, millions of people take every year. They save up their entire lives to go. It's kind of like if you complete Hajj, you've completed 20% of your religion. And in 2012, my husband and I were two of those people. Now, I had serious imposter syndrome going into hajj. I've always been a very spiritual person, but I kind of color outside the lines a little bit. I pray every day, five times a day, sometimes more on a particularly rough day. But I curse a lot. The f bomb is my favorite. I like to listen to the Quran at home with my children, but on the way to work, I listen to prints and trap music. I wear the kumar every single day. But I have been known to go out in sequin leggings and thigh high boots. I am a bit of a spiritual anomaly, and I wasn't sure that hajj was the right place for me. But I had been dreaming about hajj for a long time. It all started in Ms. Atkins third grade social studies class. We were doing a unit on world religions, and she showed us this picture of what looked like thousands of people. It was the most number of people I had ever seen in one photograph. They were all dressed in white and they were circling this little black box. She told us it was the kaaba and this was Saudi Arabia and these were muslims and they were making hajj. And right then and there, I made it my mission. I said, One day, Ms. Atkins, I'm going to make hajj. She said, angelica, didn't you just say you got baptized this year, you have to be muslim to make hajj. And I figured my strict christian mother and father wouldn't let me attend. So I set my sights on more attainable pursuits, like winning the third grade spelling bee and convincing Mario lumpkins that he was indeed in love with me. But dreams of haji resurfaced when I was a sophomore in college. I had become disenchanted with the church that I had grown up in. And I happened upon that same picture that Ms. Atkins had shown us in our third grade class. And I set out to understand the wonders of Islam. I was going to prove this religion wrong. And what I found was a practicality, a simplicity and an elegance that stole my heart. And at the age of 23. Four years after I set off on my spiritual quest, I found myself kneeling in front of a Senegalese imam in a Northwest Detroit Cape Cod style bungalow, saying the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith. It was six years later that I met my husband. Now, unlike every other Muslim woman I knew at the time, I was not trying to get married. I wanted to travel the world, see the sights, teach dance. I didn't want to be tied down. But my friend Fardo said, angelica, you need to get married. Look, my husband has a friend. He's really tall, he's cute, he's smart, you'll love him. So she set me up on a blind date at her house. I showed up four hours late for the date, he showed up five hours late. And she was right. He was everything that she said he was. He was smart, he was funny, he was engaging, handsome. But I'm 511 and he's 5 6. He wasn't exactly tall. But what Fardos didn't know is that I loves me a bite sized man. He was like a fun sized Snickers. Just enough chocolate and we got married six weeks after we met. Children soon followed and he helped me make good on my single woman's promise to myself. When he came home one day and said, babe, I got a job teaching English in Saudi Arabia. We're moving to Jeddah now. Jeddah is the jewel of the Red Sea. It's kind of like a Muslim New York City and it's only 45 minutes away from Mecca. My dream of Hajj was now closer than ever. But there was the imposter syndrome again. You see, I'm the only Muslim in my family. And on Hajj, the men and the women are in separate tents. So I couldn't be with my husband. I would be with dozens of strange Muslim women. And I was afraid that I was gonna mess up their Hajj experience because I'm kind of wayward, very irreverent, almost always inappropriate. Like the first time I went to a Western style grocery store in Jeddah, I was super excited. It wasn't like the normal farmers market that we were going to. This place had Cheerios, they had Pepsi, they had Cheez Its, and it was all in Arabic. It was so cool. I was dressed in a black abaya, the long flowing gown. I had a black face veil over my face. I was really trying to blend in. But the part that I couldn't turn off was my internal jukebox. See, it's a little raunchy and it plays music in my head at any time and sometimes the music that's selected is almost always inappropriate. And it was really hot that day. So I'm walking with my stroller and I'm going through the store, looking at all the sights and it's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes. I am getting so hot. I want to take my clothes off and get a little bit of, I mean, my head is back, my eyes are closed, and by the time I get to the second I open my eyes and every other person in the store is looking at me and they're all men because men do the majority of the shopping in Saudi Arabia. And I was afraid that just like I ruined their shopping experience, I was going to ruin Hajj for some poor unknowing woman. But when we got to the tents, I realized that it really wasn't a tent. It was these multi roomed, carpeted, air conditioned deals. And the women inside were a different mix than I had expected. There was the blonde haired, blue eyed Mexican woman who had brought her nursing baby and she would whip her boob out to feed him in front of all of the other women and they were all aghast and, and I was secretly laughing. There was the British Algerian woman who was very prim and proper. I nicknamed her the Muslim hyacinth bouquet. There was the Irish woman with pink and blue cornrows and shaved sides. She was a white girl, but she had a big booty and she taught us all how to twerk. There was the Somali contingent who wore triple black veils and gloves and bloomers and socks, but sat in circles and told ridiculously dirty jokes. They were nothing like what I imagined them to be, but I wondered what they think I was cool? Were they cool? How was this five days gonna go? The day after we got to Hajj is the day of Arafat. Now, the day of Arafat is the most important religious ritual in Hajj. You spend the entire day praying, engaging in these fervent acts of worship. But I had a secret. See, I knew just enough Arabic to make my five daily prayers, but I didn't have any extra credit prayers in my pocket. I knew one dua, one short prayer, and I sat in a corner by myself, just reciting it over and over and over again. The teacher showed up like they do every time we have hajj. And she said, okay ladies, I'm going to teach you the very prayer that the prophet Muhammad would make on this day. This is the most important prayer that you can make. So I got out my notebook and my pen. I was ready. No more kindergarten for me. I'm ready to move up to high school Arabic. And as she started talking, she began reciting the exact same prayer that I had been saying all day. I was feeling like maybe I wasn't an imposter after all. And the women in the group, they were cool. They were kind of growing on me, especially when we went out to make our rounds. The men and the women are separated sometimes even when we're in the crowds. And Muslim hyacinth, she was like a linebacker in the crowds. She told all of the women, protect the belly. When a man tried to push me out of my seat on the train, she clotheslined him. It was a beautiful thing to see. So on the third day of hajj, when we all sat down to have breakfast, I decided to take out a jar of jam. Now, on hajj, we eat traditional Saudi food. We have a breakfast of ful, which is fava beans mixed with olive oil and spices. It's really delicious. And they serve it with a flatbread called tamiz. Now, normally, this would be a great breakfast, but there were squatty potties, and I was pregnant, and it was beans and bread. It wasn't exactly a good mix for my digestive system. So I took out my jar of bon maman, all fruit preserves, and tried to slide a little bit on my bread so that nobody would see. I told you, I don't like people that much. But the Moroccan woman next to me says, sister Angelica, can I have a scoop? I figured this is hajj, so I let her have some. And just as I feared, the woman next to her asked for some, and the woman next to her and the woman next to her. And I watched my jar of jam make its way around a circle of three dozen women. But something interesting happened. As each woman took a scoop of jam, she shared her mother or her grandmother's recipe. For the women who had come from cultures that they didn't eat jam for breakfast, they said, hmm, dessert for breakfast. I can get down with that. And just like I feared, by the time the jar made its way back around to me, it was completely empty. But my heart was full. On the last day of hajj, we make a rite called tawaf al wada, the farewell tawaf. It's seven circumambulations around that black box that I had seen in Ms. Atkins third grade class. By this time, pregnancy had gotten the best of me. My feet were swollen. My head was achy, I was dehydrated. And as I walked into the crowd, the sheer number of people lifted me up. I couldn't even feel my feet on the ground. And I did the worst possible thing you can do when you're in a crowd. I looked around at all of the people and I began to hyperventilate. And my blond haired, blue eyed, Mexican hippie mama friend said, angelica, close your eyes and just breathe. And as I did, I could feel a wash of cool air flow over me. And it was just enough for me to finish making those seven rounds. I had to walk back to the bus. It was about 2.5 km. I was dragging my pregnant belly. I sent my husband ahead. I was certain that the bus had left me and had already gone back to Jeddah. But when I got on the bus, I saw that Hyacinth was sitting there saving a seat for me just like she had done on the train. We went back home and picked up our children and I spent the next few days eating fried chicken, ice cream, cream, cookies, all of the things that a pregnant woman craves when she's on Hajj. And I reflected. I had gone to Hajj as a wayward, incomplete Muslim and I came back from Hajj a wayward, incomplete Muslim because Hajj is not about being in competition with the millions of other people who are there. Hajj was about refining and becoming a more complete version of myself. It made me stop and think about the stereotypes that I had foisted upon my Hajj sisters in the tent. The same type of stereotypes that I get upset when people lob at me. My daughter was born six weeks later, a miraculous Saudi home birth. That's a story for another time. And now when she doesn't want to pray, she gets to tease her brothers and sisters and say, well, I've already made 20% of my religion because I did Hodge in mommy's belly. And when she turned 6 this December, I didn't even get a chance to post her picture on Facebook because when I opened my Facebook page, one of my Hajj sisters had already put her up on the page. We're all still very close. We trade stories, recipes, pictures of our babies. Those ladies from the tent, they're no longer strangers. They're my sisters.

Jennifer Hickson (32:18)

That was Angelica Lindsey Allee to see a picture of Angelica and her daughter Kenny, the one she was carrying at Hodge visit them is originally from Detroit and is a certified sexual health educator. She's part of a Global movement of women in 86 countries. She goes by the name the Village Auntie, and her lessons are no nonsense, Straightforward and yet so, so fun.

Zakiya Minifee (32:41)

I said, it's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes oh, it's getting hot in here.

Jennifer Hickson (32:56)

This next story is another take on our theme. I see you. This is a bit more literal. It comes from our SLAM in Chicago, where we partner with public radio station wbez. Here's Grace Topinka.

Josh Holland (33:12)

You know those kids in elementary school that talk so much that the teacher had to move them around the classroom? Well, I was the quiet kid that those kids got sat next to, and everybody knew it. I was always so shy, and every time I tried something new, I was like, I'm going to be outgoing and I'm going to be popular. I'm going to make all these high school camp, middle school, college. And it never happened. Not that I never made friends. It just took me a really long time to warm up to people after college. I was kind of nervous because they say it's harder to make friends as an adult. And I was like, well, I wasn't even good at it before. But it's true. I mean, when you don't have school proximity, it takes a lot more effort to spend time with someone and get to know someone as an adult. So I started going to therapy, and one of the things that I wanted to work on was my anxiety around social situations. And my therapist gave me an assignment that week and was like, you need to go out of your comfort zone and ask people what they're doing on the weekend and take, like, any hint of an invitation that you get. You need to jump on it. So there was this girl at work named Chelsea, and I had my eye on her, and I feel like we shared a lot of similar interests. Like, maybe she would like to hang out with me. And it really felt like I was trying to date her. Except we weren't trying to see each other naked. But I would find excuses to send her a DM on Instagram and talk to her. And then one day she mentioned that she had found this Groupon for this Korean spa. And I was like, oh, I'd totally be down to do that. Like, let's go. So on the day of, I was really nervous because I was like, okay, this is the first time we're hanging out outside of work. And it made me extremely nervous. And that's why I was in therapy. And I was like, I need to put together a cute outfit. So I wore this bathing Suit and these wide leg pants and a little sweater like that spa. I do this all the time vibe is what I was trying to give. So we met up and we got to the spa and we check into the women's locker room, and I can't help but notice there are signs everywhere that say no bathing suits in the hot tubs. You have to be completely naked, take a shower in front of everyone, and then get into the hot tub area. Now, I had figured that some people would be nude at this Korean spa because it's common in Korean spa and also in spas in countries all over the world that don't sexualize everything and have these terrible views on the naked female body. But I didn't grow up in one of those countries, so I ignorantly thought that maybe you had the option to wear a bathing suit, but you did not. So we had come this far, and the hot tub area looked so cool and inviting. I was like, okay, I guess we have to go. So we got naked and took a shower in front of everyone and got into the hot tub. And then we saw someone in the locker room and it was our boss's wife. I was like, how many colleagues are going to see me naked today? Like, I'm already nervous. This our first time hanging out and we've already done way more than I thought we were going to do. And she was nervous too. She was like, well, that'd be really weird if she comes in here. Like, do we acknowledge her? And I was like, I'm not acknowledging her. She barely knows me. But she ended up skipping out the hot tub part and going to the fully clothed sauna area or steam room area, which was good because it suddenly made Chelsea and I's situation feel a lot less awkward. Like, could be way worse. And we ended up getting, like, pretty comfortable and having a great time. And as I looked around this room of naked women in a non creepy way, I saw friends, sisters, mothers, daughters. And I realized how important it was for me to get out of my comfort zone. Because friendship, especially female friendship, is so important. And ever since then, Chelsea and I have become great friends. We've gone back to the spa multiple times, and we even started a podcast together, which I consider to be the pinnacle of millennial friendship. So I don't think my therapist would officially say getting naked is a great way to break the ice with a new friend, but in this case, it worked. Thank.

Jennifer Hickson (37:59)

That was Grace Topinka live in Chicago. Grace is still going to the spa and bringing more friends because she said she's totally over the awkwardness. Her weekly podcast with Chelsea the friend in her story is called Two Girls, One Crossword and it features trivia for people who are bad at trivia. In an ironic twist, Grace and Chelsea are known at work for their clothing because they often coordinate their holiday party outfits. Visit them off to see one of their recent ensembles. Do you have a story about letting your guard down and making friends in an unconventional place like a hot tub or against all odds? We'd love to hear it. You can pitch us your story by recording it right on our site or call 877-799-MOTH. That's 877-79966. The best pitches are developed for Moth shows all around the world when we return, trying not to be seen as the Ugly American while abroad and seeing your birth mother for the very first time.

Angelica Lindsey Allee (39:48)

The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented by the Public Radio Exchange.

H (39:56)

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Jennifer Hickson (41:09)

You're listening to the Moth Radio Hour from prx. I'm Jennifer Hickson. This hour is called I see you and the next story is about not seeing at first. It comes from a moth story slam in Detroit where we partner with public radio station WDET. Zakiyah Minifee was celebrating her 27th birthday when she put her name in the hat. The fate smiled upon her and her name was Pulled. And this is the story she told. Here's Zakiya.

I (41:37)

So it was the May. It was May of 2015. I just graduated college and I was taking my second international trip. All I knew was I was determined not to be that American on the trip. You know, the one that speaks really loud English. Just constantly, over and over again until you hope somebody understands you. I just hope everyone thought I was Canadian. I was going to visit my sister in Spain with my mom. We were excited. They're both severely type A. So the whole thing was beautifully planned in an itinerary and I just had to go along for the ride. First week I was doing wonderfully. I was muddling my way through Spanish, traipsing through tons of cities. And next up on our trip was Granada. We were going to spend a day at the Alhambra, which is this fortress palace, Moorish, Roman Catholic, just amalgamation of things in. My history degree was just absolutely swooning at the possibility of being there. And I didn't want to be that tourist, right? So we weren't going to take a tour guide. We were just going to go and explore, but like kind of follow a tour, do you know what I mean? So that you're not like with the tour, but you're with the tour. Because we didn't want to be with the group of Americans that were being the group of Americans, like tall white socks and the short cargoes and the short sleeve shirt and the wide brim hat and the big sunglasses and the white orthopedic sneakers to bring it all home. But we were behind the screen and we kept trying to like, kind of cut in front of them to like get a really good view of the good stuff, but, like still hear a little bit of the tour guide in the back. But we just kept getting stuck. And there was this just fan favorite in the group, this older gentleman who was all the stereotypes wrapped in run. He had the real, like really big glasses. I had never seen anything like that before. And every stop it was, oh, wow. Oh, at every single stop. And the first time I grinned because it just made me happy. It was like contagious. And then the second time, the third time I had an indulgent smile because I was willing to play along. And by the sixth time, my smile had slipped and my eyes were rolling into the back of my head and my sister and I were having one of those silent conversations that you can only have with someone that's like firmly inside your squad, you know what I mean? Where you're just like, what is he doing and why won't he stop? And we got to the, like, one of the most famous spots in the Alhambra. It's this gorgeous patio with, like this big open fountain space. And he did it again.

Jennifer Hickson (44:31)

Like, oh.

I (44:35)

And before I could get too frustrated, this very good natured woman, who is better than I, I must admit, leaned over to the woman who was walking with him and said, wow, he's really enjoying it. I was like, you bet he is, because he's killing it for me. And the woman that was with him said, yeah, he just had corrective eye surgery. Surgery. It's all really new for him. There goes all the wind out of my bitch sails. Like, oh, my.

Grace Topinka (45:11)

What?

I (45:12)

I'm so horrible.

Jennifer Hickson (45:14)

Like, how did I not.

I (45:16)

Like the big glasses, like, the really big glasses. How was I not paying attention to that? And so, oh, my gosh. I leaned into my sister. She kind of leaned into me in that just like, moment of wonder of like, oh, my gosh. So the rest of the trip was just.

Zakiya Minifee (45:32)

We were like, ooh, ah, right?

I (45:38)

Because now it's amazing. It's even more amazing because it was cool to see it to begin with. Like, my history degree, because it wasn't going to pay me, was paying off here. And now I get to see it with these amazing new eyes of somebody that was really actually like, looking and seeing it for something new and for something special. So at the end of that tour, when I was alone and sitting on the steps in the palace of Charles V, which was built 500 years ago with this big open roof and looking at the stars and getting kind of misty eyed, I'll be damned if I didn't say, oh, wow.

Jennifer Hickson (46:24)

That was Zakiya Menefee. She's a program manager in Detroit, but loves travel, live music, books, black garlic ice cream, and her cat Kevin. To see a picture of Zakiya, her sister, and her mom on the trip In Spain, visit themoth.org where you can also find a link to share this story. She hopes this story reminds everyone to keep their sense of wonderful. Let your oohs and ahs flow. But also socks and sandals. That's a no. Our final story is from Josh Holland. He was visiting from Maine when he told this at a story slam in New York City where we partner with public radio station wnyc. Here's Josh Holland.

J (47:11)

So I am in a pickup truck and I get out and I look in the rearview mirror because I want to see my face as my birth mother will see it for the first time in 39 years. And I look tired, and I look like I've been thinking about this moment a little too long. And it's Alki beach in West Seattle. I don't know if anyone knows Seattle, but you're over on the west. And then there's Seattle over here, and so there's a beach there. And it's December, so it's empty. I turn around from the pickup and I see there's just an empty beach. And there's a small Statue of Liberty, Statue to my left, many hundreds of yards away. And I can see one figure. She's got a leather jacket, red hair. I can see at a distance, black jeans. And I know it's her. I start walking towards her, and it's like one of those people movers in the airports. You're just suddenly already over there. And she's standing in front of me and she says, oh, here you are. And I give her a big hug, and she's so strong. And I look, I step back and I see for the first time in my life, except for the pictures she sent me, someone who looks like me first time ever. And I don't know if anybody else is adopted in the room, but that's a pretty intense moment. And then as I'm hugging her, I have this. The only time I've ever had this thought. I have this physical response to her physical self. I'm from Eastern Washington. I identify with it really strongly, but I'm from her. And I step back and we'd exchange letters and emails and so on, but this is the first time we're talking, and she's on my left and we're walking down the beach, and she is walking and just looking at me, and she says, well, tell me everything. And she's not joking. And so I start talking about this. You know, I got a bunch of great friends and what I'm doing with my life and so on and so forth. And she presses me with questions and questions, and I'm walking, she's right here. And every time I look, she's just looking at me. And I don't know if anybody knows teachers or principals or cops, but there's this look that people who are good at this do where they're watching everything you do. And she's doing it the whole time. She wants to know about everything, even stuff I've already said in the letter. She's asking about. When we walk down the beach. It's an empty beach, very beautiful. Water on the left side, houses on the right. And I don't know if anyone's ever been subjected to that sort of gaze over time, but it's exhausting the minute careful noticing. This is how my genetic son moves his hand when he's telling a story. This is how my genetic son moves his feet when he's walking on the beach. This is how my genetic son fixes his coat. This is how my genetic son moves his head away when he's nervous about how I'm looking at the side of his face. We go down the beach. Finally I'm able to redirect the conversation a little bit to her and ask about what it's like being a critical care nurse and tell me about owning horses. Tell me about your sister. She has four brothers, one. And as soon as it gets to her, she redirects to me. And more memorable, the bar. Oh, I find it very difficult to face her. I can't really bring myself to square off because it's so intense, because I'm sensing what it's like as far as a son can or any adopted kid can, what it's like to finally have that baby back in front of you. So we go down the beach, we get to a bar and you have to sit across from someone in restaurants, that's the rules. And so. And so I find myself shifting to the waiter so I can deflect because it's so intense, you know. This is how my son orders an ipa. This is how my son orders the second IPA and so on. And we go back the other way and it's getting dark and it's still happening, the intensity. And I'm really tired. We get almost to the Statue of Liberty, almost there, and she's not next to me all of a sudden, and I turn around and she's back a bit. And I go back and I say, what's up? And she's like, are you mad at me? And I said, no, why would I be mad at you? She said, for giving you up. And I was like, no. And then I realized what this was all about. You know, I squared off with her shoulder to shoulder in the fading dark on Alki beach. And I said, maureen, my life is full of beauty. I have so many friends, loving family, you know, stuff wasn't always great with my folks, but we worked it out like every family does. And I love them very much. Got two sisters and my whole life I've chased my dreams. So no, I'm not mad at you. What you did as a 19 year old girl in eastern Washington was one of the bravest things I even know about. And I don't know if you guys have had that experience where you don't know something isn't in place until it falls into place, but I saw it hit her and then hit me. Thank you very much.

Jennifer Hickson (53:05)

That was Josh Holland. He grew up skiing, fishing and camping in Eastern Washington State and was very active in the Boy Scouts. And after a good stint as a university academic, Josh now runs a sleepaway summer camp in Maine called Camp Kabasi for Boys. Josh sees Maureen whenever he comes through Seattle, including one Christmas where he learned that Maureen's entire family gets matching flannel pajamas each year, just like his family does. To see a picture of Josh and Maureen and one of Josh and his mom and one of them together with his nephew, you can visit them that's it for this episode of the Moth Radio Hour. We hope you'll join us next time. And that's the story from the Moth.

Angelica Lindsey Allee (54:12)

Your host this hour was Jennifer Hickson, who also directed the stories in the show. The rest of the most directorial staff includes Katherine Burns, Sarah Haberman, Sarah Austin, Janess and Meg Bowles. Production support from Emily Couch. Most stories are true, as remembered and affirmed by the storytellers. Our theme music is by the Drift. Other music in this hour from Nelly Percussions, Regina Carter, Blue Dot Sessions, Strunes and Farah and Ben Harper. You can find links to all the music we use at our website. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by me, Jay Allison with Vicki Merrick at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. This hour was produced with funds from the National Endowment for the Arts. The Moth Radio Hour is presented by prx. For more about our podcast. For information on pitching us your own story and everything else, go to our website themoth.org.