A (7:52)

One other thing I'll, I will add to that the difference too between a lot of pts and Trevor. Trevor is hopeful and, and the Ms. Gym is full of hope. I can't even tell you how many pts and other medical professionals have written me off and said your Ms. Is progressive, like you're just going to get worse and you. And that's not okay with Trevor. And that's one thing I really appreciate about Trevor and the Ms. Gym is they don't give up on you. And I think that's so important. Living with Ms. Or another chronic illness, you know, we are so used to getting all of these, all this bad news and oh, it's progressive, it's progressive. You're just gonna get worse, you know, and just, it's a, it's a, like a breath of fresh air. Having Trevor saying, no, I'm not, I'm not okay with, with that, with that statement. I'm not okay with that belief. Like, let's, let's do what we can to make you stronger, for sure.

B (8:46)

And there's a lot of misinformation out there. And when we started it, what I noticed, and it's changed over the years, which I'll touch upon, was that it was not even widely recognized in the Ms. Community that exercise, how important exercising was. So even in the, I'd say, the early days, there was a lot of sort of convincing that we had to deal with people that, yes, this can help you. This can, you know, actually slow progression and can counteract symptoms and make you feel better. And in general, obviously forgetting just symptom management, things like that, just exercise in itself is healthy for you. So much literature has come out. There's been more studies that have come out in the last seven years. There's just so much evidence that how helpful it could be. So even neurologists are really promoting exercise now. And, you know, so that's not really controversial anymore. I think that's widely accepted. But, yes, having hope, belief, again, our message of living a life by design, not by diagnosis is something that's, that's a really big part of the msg. I mean, it's, it's a place of hope. We, you know, it's, it's not about. We don't want people just giving up. So what's important to me also is that, okay, even for people who do face more significant disease progression and more challenges, because there's a, there's a wide gap. Right. Doing this, I've seen everything from a wide range from bedridden to fully mobile and managing maybe minimal symptoms. Right. But I, I would say, I think a really important part of what I want people to get out of who are part of the MSG community and is that you could still change your outlook and have a good life. It may look different than your old life. And you really hit on this a lot, Jody, in different podcast episodes, doing your motivation Mondays in our free Facebook group, which shout out for those of you listening, if you're not part of our free Facebook group, just type in the MSG and we'll come up in Facebook. But you talk about this a lot, about changing your mindset, because we're not preaching that we're a miracle cure and we can change everything for you. So I do think that what you talk of touch upon a lot is again, changing that outlook to yes, this is my situation now but it does not need to be a death sentence. I can still enjoy life and not that I won't have hard days, but I could still do everything in my power to have the best life that I could. Even though these, let's face it, being handed an Ms. Diagnosis, you're not dealt the best hand. Right? That's not what we want. But we all have challenges in life. We all do. And you know, I think it's coming to grips with those things and, and it's what you choose to do with it. You know, I'm not minimizing how difficult that, that's easier said than done. Like just have a positive attitude that's it's not as simple as that. We have to really work on ourselves and dive deep. But to me that mindset piece is just super important.

A (12:15)

I agree with you and I think I so appreciate the community we have both in the free Ms. Gym and then the members only corner where we have for our paid members just there's an overall atmosphere of hope and encouragement and it's not that we don't share our struggles and our hard times but it, it's not a group where you go and commiserate with and it's, it's not like that at all. And I think it's so important for trying to maintain a positive mindset to be around like minded people. So Ken, how has the business model for the Ms. Gym kind of evolved over the last seven and a half years?

B (12:57)

Good question. So many things have evolved which, which I'll talk about but I will say the basic ethos of, of the business intentionally has not changed. The two main things that I wanted on, on the business side of things was that number one obviously we had, we had that we had a stable business, right? We go out of business, we can't help anyone. So one of the first things I, I, I, you know I did with Trevor and we, he was on board with this too is, was that we didn't want a business where we're just selling one time products. So like you would buy a one. Well that was the main part, well I should say that's the main part of the business. So you would just buy, let's just say a 15 day reducing spasticity product because we were just the amount of volume that we would have to sell of those just to keep our virtual doors open would be nearly impossible. Like it just wouldn't work. So we knew right away to make this work we were going to need a Recurring revenue model, which honestly most gyms anyway, whether online or in person, have that model for a reason. Again, most would go out of business. It's like, you know, if even if a brick and mortar gym, if they just charged per session or per class, like they're not going to make it. You need members who are committed to. We always felt let's have one big membership where we're giving as much as we can in that membership, right? Giving all the programs they need, all the education, everything, and that we have not wavered from that. Our membership program to this day is our main flagship program and nothing's going to change as far as it being the flagship program. And then the second piece that has not changed and is equally as important is that we offer a ton of free resources to the community and they go hand in hand because if we didn't have the stability of the membership, Trevor could not do all this free content, you know, like, because we wouldn't have a business and then he'd be back in his brick and mortar working one on one. That would be no msg. So they do go hand in hand to me. And you know, the fact is not everyone is going to buy something from us and I'm okay with that. And we, we, we wanted to have a business that truly is for the entire global Ms. Community and there are tons of people that just again may never buy anything from us, but we'll still get really great value of attending. We offer so much stuff, free workshops. We put out so much content on YouTube, on the social media channels like Facebook and Instagram and all sorts of stuff. Even in just on our email list we send regular free exercises. I could go on and on. There's just a ton of free stuff we give away. I couldn't even list them all now, but so that was a big piece of it for us. Fortunately we can do that. Like a lot of businesses couldn't have that kind of model. I mean if you went to a restaurant, they couldn't just give their food away for free, right? Maybe once in a while, like if you're a frequent customer and it's your birthday, okay, free meal once a year, but just nice. But you know, that model for us, you know, we didn't want the all or nothing. But again those are the main two pieces. Now we do still have what I call more of a mini membership, which is our Symptom Solutions program, which you actually, Jody, were kind of involved with helping me think that through of like, okay, how can we have a Little lower priced, kind of recurring revenue offer that provides value but isn't quite what the membership is just because everyone wants something different. And then we do have one off products where someone can buy just an individual product. But again, you know, I say 90 of our focus is still giving away free content and the focus on the membership. The other part of your question is really how have we evolved? So I'm really, I was saying there that in some ways again we've kept things simple, as simple as we can as far as the business model, but it's evolved just as far as how many, how much it's grown. Number one, you know, we started with zero. It was like Trevor just went live for his first video. You started at zero and now I mean, I think I lose track of the exact number we have. I know it's. Well if you count all our social platforms, YouTube, Instagram, you know, a few other places, I mean we're well over 80,000. If you add it all up of how many people plus who's on our email list and gets our email newsletter, it's well over 80,000 people now. So we've reached a lot more people. So that's a natural evolution of just being consistent and having a stable business. A lot of businesses don't make it past the five year mark. So it's evolved in that way. It's also evolved just as far as what the community needs. We're always looking at what can we improve upon, what needs to be changed. There's so much I've learned in doing this and Trevor is a practitioner so we are always thinking what do we need to do less of, what's wasting our time and what do we need to do more of to provide, you know, a better experience for everybody. So that, that's kind of how it, it's evolved the most is just that we're, we're always making changes and you know, we, we've been able to just add a lot of things to, to the community. There's a lot of ways people can find us. There's a lot of just, we're always adding resources and you know, like I said, the community just continues to grow. So I would say those are the main ways that I've seen it evolve.

A (19:16)

Now you were talking about, you know, other businesses, not just Ms. Related or fitness. Why do you think the Ms. Gym like seven and a half years later is still going? Like what's the difference between the Ms. Gym and perhaps some other businesses? Especially during COVID all these online things popped up. Right. But so many, so many online businesses they, they sank, they didn't swim.

B (19:42)

Yeah. You know I really, I think that part, a big part of our success has been the community. You know, I really, I think the people that we found, that found us, I should say in the first year or two were, we're just like, we were blessed just to, to have the right group of people and I know you were part of that. And so I think beyond like the programs and all, everything which is obviously that's the core of our business but really to me what made it work the best and continues to make it work the best is the community. And like, like people have formed amazing real friendships. Like this goes well beyond just, you know, just, just an exercise program and you know, people connecting. When, when we first started it there weren't a lot of places to go. Yes. There was other Facebook groups out there that would. And some like you said earlier were just places to commiserate together. Right. So there weren't, I, there just wasn't a lot of that. And people, people needed that. People want community like I, I'd imagine It's, it would 20, 20 years ago before really the Internet exploded and so it had to be so isolating for people. So you know, I think again that people who found us were really, really into it. Like they, they just, they committed to it. It's like you know, they were very receptive to what Trevor was sharing and just a good group of people that vibe together and were able to share their experiences and have others provide help and just kind of love on them, you know, on bad days and, and that, that part, that piece of it took off and I think that that continues today. You know, even though we're larger and do things do evolve like you talk about. We've always tried to, to keep that close knit community. Now we're not going to make everyone happy. Not everyone's going to come in and love the culture of the msgym and that's with anything but by and large I think we just, we have our reputation speaks for itself and I think the other word is trust. I think people trust us. So I'd say that is probably number one. And then number two is that Trevor's really good at what he does. A lot of people have had really good results. I think those two things have probably.

A (22:46)

Been the biggest contributor who is not the right fit for the Ms. Gym.

B (22:52)

That's a tough one, I'll be honest because the part, part of me wants to say we want to Be for everyone. We want to, we want to be right for everyone. Because I, I always want to help people if we can. I, well, I, you know, I don't think anyone is the wrong person for the Ms. Ms. Gym. So in other words, if someone's just open enough to start watching Trevor's YouTube videos, I think that's for anyone. You know, like to me it's just, do you have an open mind like that? This can actually make any, even a 2 to 3% difference in improving your life. To me, that's even worth it if you present this thing to me that said, you know, this, this is something, Are you open to this? If it's something I think can help me at all with, with my, you know, I don't have ms, but I got tons of other issues. So I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be open to that if I think obviously it can make my life 10% better, 20. It's hard to measure these things. But if anyone is open to it, I think that anyone's right for the msg. It doesn't mean that they'll ever be right for our paid products, but to at least get some value using our free resources, I think that's anyone. I think someone who's not gonna be right for us is just someone who has a closed mind. And some people do. Maybe they just been so hurt in life, they're just in such a bad place mentally, which I know what that's like, you know, to just be in a place when you're in a really bad headspace. It's hard to be open. You get very cynical. I've been through that in my life and chronic illness can, can do that to you. So I say someone who's closed minded and not open to something new and different, they're not going to be right for the msg. They're going to, they're just not. So that's who I would say it's not for. And I've seen groups like that, you know, early on it was interesting. I won't name the name of the Facebook group, but in our really early days I had connected with someone and she invited Trevor on to, to basically do a mini workshop for free in their group. And this was a big group, Facebook, one of the big Facebook groups out there, support groups for Ms. At the time and kind of, I put them in the category of like you had said earlier, kind of the let's commiserate together and just complain all day. And Trevor, you know, he shared his expertise the same way he did in our regular free group. Right. And so yeah, have the same exact content. He's sharing the same, the same stuff in that group. It was just like there was no reaction to it. There was no, was like it felt like a Morgan there. That was just very few people came out and commented or, or said anything. It was just like, all right. And yet we were building our free group at the time and again, the same content and everyone was like, thank you for this. I, this is what I was looking for. I needed this, I needed help with this exact thing. It, it was like two different worlds. So you know, even though both groups were people with ms, but just the reaction was just night and day. I, I say it, it is where people are at in their lives if they're, they have to be open, open to, open to something new and different.

A (26:09)

So we have the paid membership and then Trevor and you have put out tons of free resources on different social media platforms. Instagram, YouTube and such. Which social media platform do you find gets the most engagement? Like people, the most views, the people most watch.

B (26:28)

We needed to focus on one platform to start with and Facebook was it for us. And I mean our free Facebook group which has evolved a lot but from the early days that's where we put all our attention. And I still think we have, I mean there's like over 30,000 people in there and our Facebook business page gets a ton of engagement still. So I'd still say Facebook. And then probably second is YouTube because everything's so searchable there. Unlike the Facebook feed or the Instagram feed where something Trevor maybe filmed a year ago. It's like lost in that feed. No one's finding it unless you want to hurt your finger scrolling forever and ever. But YouTube is easy to go and search and you can find relevant video for your. If you're looking for something very specific like numbness and tingling in, in your foot, let's just say you, you know, you're going to search. You may find, you can easily find something that is there for you. It may have been a three year old video, but that's the beauty I think of the YouTube formatting that's set up that way. So we do. I'd say YouTube second but a close second and then, and then Instagram third. But we're working on Instagram. I don't think we have the presence there that I like at this point. We're still trying and then you know, just our email newsletter is very popular. You know, we, we give out a Ton of of stuff throughout, through our, I call them daily ish emails that we send out.

A (28:07)

So ever since the Ms. Gym started, Trevor and yourself, you've been purists in the sense that you're product is exercise and you're a firm believer in that. For people with ms, people with any kind of medical conditions, basically for anyone that is alive with a heartbeat, we all need to exercise. So why hasn't the Ms. Gym maybe gotten on board with some of the other products whether Ms. Related or just for general health? Why is the MSG more just sticking to the core of exercise?

B (28:44)

You know, I always try to put myself in the shoes of someone based on my own experiences as best as I can. And I can tell you that I've had some horrible experiences where I get on someone's email list. A company, a small company, a marketer, a big company, that doesn't matter. And you know, the minute I express interest at all, right, whether that's entering my email for something, anything or even a buy an entry level product of theirs immediately, I'm upsold into a million other things. And I'm sure everyone listening has had this experience and it, if it's done well, I don't mind it. But a lot of times it feels sleazy and you know, I just feel like they just want my dollars. You know, they're not, they're just pushing more and more product on me and I never felt good about that. And I also, what I really had trouble with was the affiliate thing. I've never been a big fan of that meeting. I'm trying to think, I'll just take something here because in my room here, here's my water, I'm drinking Aquafina. So let's just say not the best, but let's just say I'm on the Aquafina email list and they start pitching me other products that they never have, maybe even tried themselves. It's just a money making thing for them. And I saw that a lot where companies were pitching me other products and services because they can get a commission. But I often wonder, do you really use it? And we see this with spokespeople all the time, famous celebrities. It's like, you know, people fall for it too. It's like, oh, if so and so is using it, they're influenced by it. But it's like, I mean, don't you ever wonder like does this person ever really use that own product in their own lives? Has it really improved their life? So if we're ever going to Recommend something to someone. I feel it has to truly be in 100 in the best interests of the entire community. And so there are a lot of products where that have come our way, meaning people have contacted us, they want to collaborate. And number one, often it's. It. Sometimes it's a really expensive product or service. So I'm very cautious about putting something out there that may be a really expensive solution. You know, you're talking, it could be a thousand dollars, whatever, or more, when I know a lot of people can't afford that. And because we have such a wide range of incomes and, you know, so that never felt good to me. I don't want to put something out there like, oh, well, that sounds good, but, you know, I could just imagine the thread of like, people fighting over, you know, like, oh, cool, but I can't afford that. Thanks for throwing this in my face. And other people being excited about buying it like, that never felt right to me. The other thing is I, I don't love recommending something. We don't love promoting products unless we're 100 sure that 90 of the people that are going to buy it, that that's not our products are going to be happy with it and have a good experience with it. So that's the other thing. And I don't like if something is controversial. I kind of pause. And us being about exercise, you know, I always, I always felt we already. We're doing something that is not controversial and we know provides value and we just always wanted to stick to. We want people to trust us and buy our products and services. Like, my, my mission is not to try to make an extra buck off of other products and services. Again, I, I don't have anything against businesses that do that if it's done ethically. But, you know, it's just, it's like I said, there's still tons of people out there that maybe have never purchased any of ours. I'd rather them build more trust with them before I start pitching some, you know, possible solution or send them down some rabbit hole. So, you know, that's kind of our philosophy around it. And I'm not saying we will never, because I don't want to sound like a hypocrite. Something could come along that I think would be great to promote and we will share with people when we hear someone's getting good results. So, for example, psionic, okay, who I think what they're doing, I think they're an amazing company, what they're doing. And we did promote them. Now not in the sense and they promoted us, but not in the sense of we were getting a commission. It was just that a lot of our people, a lot of our MSG members started talking about it and saying, this is cool and I'm liking it, I'm getting results. And so once that starts to happen, then that's another story that was more of an exception. But you know, there are times that we definitely will recommend other things. We try to just keep our focus about how we can help people. We really don't want to throw them down, let them do their own research on all the other things that are out there. I trust people will just use, do their people have to do their own due diligence. But yeah, I never wanted to push other products and services. That was just, you know, that never felt great for me.

A (34:26)

And you know, I think that's one of the reasons that the MSGYM and the Mock have felt like safe places because, because we're not pitched products and no one's out to try to, to swindle us out of our money. And I think, I think by keeping it focused, like you said, on exercise, it creates a safe place where, where you know that you can trust the source and there's no ulterior motives to it. So again, we've talked a lot about some of the different products and membership, how things have evolved. My last question to you is what does the future look like for the msg? What programs or programming do you have in store for us?

B (35:09)

There's really two big things. One is that we want to improve our membership. We don't want to rest on our laurels and with modern technology, videos can get outdated after a while. So we're going to actually be doing a whole revamp of our membership really soon. We had MSGM 1.0, which was when we launched, we made a big 2.0, which was a different version. Now we're going to do sort of what I call a 2.5. And the reason I say not a 3.0 is because we're going to build it slowly. We don't want to overwhelm people who are used to the current programs. So we're going to release things little by little over the next two years. Really it's a two year project. And part of the reason we're doing this is it's not just about that. Technology's evolved and the video quality will be better and the audio will be even better and the software experience can be better. The app experience, yes, that stuff's important but to me what's way more important is the quality of the programming. We have so much data now of what works well, what doesn't work. And you really need to be honest with yourself. You can't just think we have this perfect product. There's so many things that we can improve on and it's complicated because we have so many mobility levels. But Trevor and I spent a lot of time talking the last year and I'm kind of in the trenches with him on this because I see where people get stuck, don't progress as much as they like through the programs and I see where other people have more success. But I think there's a different way we can structure the programs again based on all the feedback I've seen and I listen to what everyone has to say whether I like it or not. We even when someone, when a member leaves, we have an outtake survey. So I read every single one of those. So we're designing a program again based on what we've seen that we think will just really enhance people's results. And a lot of the focus of that. Trevor, when you have Trevor on you can speak more to this. But building leg strength is a, is a huge thing and the way the new programs are going to be structured is going to be a game changer for that. So I don't want to give that away. And that's not, I can't speak to that as well as Trevor. But we are going to be really revamping and changing the membership. So that's number one and that's a big thing. And then number two is just that we have more offerings because not everyone wants to be part of a membership. Everyone is different. Some people just want a workshop, some people just want some free stuff. Some people might just want an individual product. So we're expanding our offerings both free and again more non member things that people could buy. That's not necessarily the membership, although I always think that's still the best because you're making a commitment. So those are some of the changes we're making along with one other thing I'd really like to do is get back to eventually near short term and long term offering some actual in person events. Again it's been on my wish list for a while and I'll tell you it was always a part of what I wanted. Like I. But and we had a great first summit like many years ago like not far after we, you know, were in business only a year or two and then we were going to Build momentum off that. We had so many plans for a second summit and then all of a sudden something called Covid came around and changed the world forever. So obviously that change, we had to cancel the event, which was really unfortunate. And it just, obviously in person events were just put on the back burner for at the time. And I do feel now that it's the time to start them again. So I want to get back to that. It's just been tough because it takes a lot of work so to plan an event like that, so just finding the bandwidth for it. But it's on our agenda. Ideally we start planning something soon and then next year it's one of our goals to, you know, even if it's just a smaller event to start, you know, just to. But, you know, I, I'd love to get in person stuff going again. I also have this vision of eventually there's MSG meetups in different parts of the country, this country and in Canada and wherever, because we have members from all over where just people can meet at a coffee shop, you know, or whatever, just, just connect in person. And people have done that on their own. But I mean, like kind of an official MSG meetup, it doesn't always have to be a big event that I, that, that we plan. So yes, I'd like some big events, like a summit in person, but I, I'd love to have some organized, structured way that people can meet up in person, like I said, in different areas, really, throughout the world.

A (40:07)

Well, can that. That is exciting. I have to say. I feel a little bit being behind the scenes and doing a lot of projects with you, all these things are kind of new to me, so it's exciting for me. So I know for the listeners of the podcast who have been part of the MSGYM, the idea of the membership 2.5 and potential summit and more community events are very exciting. Well, Ken, thank you so much for giving up some time in your afternoon to talk with us and to share about kind of the evolution of the Ms. Gym and, and where things are headed.

B (40:42)

My pleasure. It was great to be here.

A (40:44)

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the MSGYM podcast. You can find more about the Ms. Gym on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram and@themsgym.com.