← The MSing Link
Loading summary
Transcript62 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hello and thank you so much for being here with us today. I have a guest, Ashley Milas, with me today and I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation. Ashley is a trauma informed, somatic grief and life transition coach who helps people navigate significant losses and life changes, including chronic illness. Not only that, but also the death of a loved one, divorce, and just any other major life transition. What makes Ashley particularly relevant for our community is her personal 13 plus year journey with chronic illness, which gives her deep lived understanding of the grief and loss that can come with a chronic diagnosis. She specializes in helping people process the emotions that often get pushed aside when we're focused on managing symptoms and treatments. Ashley uses a somatic approach that works with the body and the nervous system system, addressing what she calls the missing piece that traditional talk therapy sometimes can't reach. On today's episode, we dive deep into why grief with chronic illness often goes unrecognized, what somatic work is and how it differs from traditional talk therapy, how our nervous system gets stuck in survival mode with chronic illness, and most practical ways to process emotions through the body, not just the mind.
- [01:40]
B
The big question is, how does someone with Ms. Actually improve their mobility, strength, energy independence? The list goes on. My name is Dr. Gretchen Holley, physical therapist and multiple sclerosis specialist. Welcome to the Missing Link podcast. Tune in as I share the top strategies and exercises to help you gain control over your life with ms, using research driven insights and advice from top industry experts. Whether you're newly diagnosed or have had Ms. For over 30 years, whether you have relapsing Ms. Or progressive MS, this podcast is for you. You're sure to feel empowered and inspired after each episode.
- [02:29]
A
Ready?
- [02:30]
B
Let's dive in. Foreign.
- [02:38]
A
Ashley, thank you so much for being here with us today.
- [02:41]
C
Oh, thanks for having me. Thank you. Of course.
- [02:45]
A
I'm really excited to dive in because this specific topic isn't talked about enough. And I feel like it's either because someone might be unaware that they're actually experiencing it, or if they are experiencing it, it's really uncomfortable and so we sometimes don't want to acknowledge that. And you also recently were in our Missing Link program as our guest speaker and you took us through two examples, two practices that were just so helpful and immediately gave us this sense of calm and peace and acceptance. So I'm excited to dive in. But before we do, can I ask you a question from my interview deck?
- [03:30]
C
Sure. All right.
- [03:31]
A
I feel like these are good icebreakers so people get to know you on a level outside of your area of expertise.
- [03:39]
C
Okay.
- [03:40]
A
Okay. Your question is, what's the last thing you've done that you are really proud of?
- [03:47]
C
The last thing I've done that I was really proud of. It's funny, because it could be doing podcasts like this. I am, actually. I've been doing more podcast guest interviews lately, and I am. People don't really realize this about me, but I'm an introvert.
- [04:05]
A
I.
- [04:06]
C
When I say that to some of my friends, they're like, no, you're not. But I really am. I'm very. I get very shy, like public speaking or anything like that. And so it's very much out of my comfort zone to be a guest on a podcast. And so I've been doing it more, and I have been enjoying it, too. So, yeah, I'm. I guess I'm pretty proud of that.
- [04:28]
A
I love that. That's definitely something. Something to be proud of. I feel like I'm in. What's. Is it an ambivert when you're like, a little bit of both? Is that the right word? Because I do love public speaking, but afterwards, I'm, like, drained. Like, I need to just nap. And I've heard that how you regain energy says more about introvert versus extrovert versus, like, the activities that you do.
- [04:55]
C
Interesting. Yeah, it takes a lot of energy for me as well.
- [05:00]
A
Awesome. All right, well, thanks for answering that. So let's dive in. So our main thing that we're going to be chatting about today is grief. And you and I were talking about how a lot of people might not even realize that they are experiencing grief, especially when it comes to chronic illness. And I'm curious why you think that might be. And why is grief overlooked so frequently, whether it's by the person who has a chronic illness or even in our healthcare system.
- [05:34]
C
Well, a lot of times I think I know for me personally, when. Because I. I've lived with chronic illness for over 13 years now, and so I've been on a long journey with that. And I don't even think I recognize that I was holding so much grief because I was so focused on just the diagnosis itself and trying to make sure I was doing everything, seeing the right doctors, getting the right therapies, the right medications, all of that, really trying to manage the diagnosis. And I don't think that left a lot of room to even pay attention to what it was doing to me emotionally. So I think we kind of push that part away because we're just really trying to survive it and trying to Figure out how to manage it. I think that can happen. And also I think some people do realize that they're feeling grief and big emotions, and sometimes it's just too much to be with. And so they can, you know, ignore it or suppress it. And that happens a lot as well. Another thing that I've personally experienced and I've seen in my clients as well, is we tend to minimize our grief or these emotions that we're having. Because I see a lot of people comparing, well, there's always someone that has it worse. Right. So we're like, oh, well, at least I'm not, you know, like them. And so I should feel grateful. And I see people doing that. And yes, it is good to feel grateful, but at the same time, sometimes feeling that can minimize what we're going through as well. And that can really hurt us when we're not paying attention to what we're feeling. Because what we're going through is important too, even if it's not as bad as someone else. Yeah. I think a lot of times we try to protect other people too. Right. We don't want to make other people feel uncomfortable with how we're taking things emotionally as well. So there's a lot of reason. I think it gets pushed to the side, kind of on the back burner.
- [07:41]
A
Could you give some examples, and this might sound like a weird question, but could you give some examples of what grief might feel like or sound like in our head? Like what stories would be a grief based story that we're telling ourselves? I just feel like some people, for those that don't recognize that that's what they're experiencing because they're just brushing it under the rug. What are some examples that might make someone think, oh, am I experiencing grief over this?
- [08:09]
C
Yeah, Disconnection, I think, is a really big symptom. We start to feel disconnected from ourself and disconnected from other people and kind of disconnected from life in general. Because when we have these losses and with chronic illness, there's a lot of loss that comes with chronic illness. And when we're experiencing all this loss, we kind of lose touch with who we are. Right. And so there's this disconnection that can kind of happen. And I think that's one of the, the big first major symptoms that you might notice if you are experiencing grief. A sense of disconnection that I feel.
- [08:53]
A
Like that's so great to know, just to be aware of. So if you are, even if you're not experiencing that now, if you start to experience it that might be like a little yellow flag. Like, hey, pay attention to this. Don't just you brush it under the rug.
- [09:06]
C
Yes, yes.
- [09:08]
A
So we're going to get into. I've got some questions for you about how you help people through this. But before we dive into that, can you share a bit about who you are and how you help and how what you do is different, especially as it pertains to grief and chronic illness?
- [09:25]
C
Yeah. So I work as a somatic coach, and I work with people who are going through loss and big life changes. And a big group of the people that I work with are people who are going through chronic illness. And that's a really important part of my practice because. And very dear to my heart because I myself, like I said, have experienced that. I've had a big, long journey with that, and I know what it's like to really just kind of almost drown in those big emotions and the grief of it all. And my work is really helping people learn how to move through that. And I do it by using a somatic approach, which really works with the body and the nervous system. And I'm really passionate about this because it was the missing piece that I needed for so long to help me feel like myself again, help me to kind of come back to life. Because it's kind of like I was talking about that disconnection earlier. I really became really disconnected from myself and wasn't really living life so much anymore, but instead really trying to survive it. And so this type of work is just so powerful and so beautiful. So I just. I love sharing it with people.
- [10:51]
A
It really is. And I'm just. I'm already just so eager to ask you my questions on that so everyone else can learn too, because it is a very different approach. I'm personally a huge fan. But before we dive into that, let's say someone is aware they're going through grief. Maybe they tell their neurologist or, you know, one of their healthcare providers ideally to seek help. I feel like the most common referral that they might get would be to a talk therapist. And I'm curious on, especially because you kind of have a little bit of a different approach with the somatic coaching. Where does talk therapy fit into this? Especially because it. I'm assuming it is that first referral source.
- [11:33]
C
Yes. Well, talk therapy is great and very helpful for many people. I think with talk therapy, a traditional talk therapy, it's really good for getting a cognitive understanding of kind of what we're going through and really processing things on A mental level. But where it can sometimes fall short is we have all of these emotions and experiences. They live in our bodies. And so when we're not processing them on a body level, we're missing a really huge piece. So it's kind of like people will come to me. And a lot of people have been in therapy for a while and they say to me, you know, I have this understanding of everything. I really. I get it, but I just don't feel different. And so that's the body piece, because the mind and the body have to go together to be able to process these big emotions and experiences. And so that's where the somatic piece comes in, is it kind of pulls all of that together.
- [12:39]
A
Yeah, I can so relate to that. I was just talking to one of my friends earlier this week, and we're both fans of talk therapy, and she was saying she keeps hopping around to different ones for the reason that you just said. She understands cognitively, like, why she is the way she is and why certain things bother her, but she's still not feeling any different. So she keeps hoping that another therapist might see things differently or share things with her that would help that.
- [13:08]
C
So, yeah, I can resonate with that. That so much. I mean, even for me, I worked with a therapist for a long time and I did. Oh, my gosh, I also did like, three different brain retraining programs and all of this mindset work. And it produced a lot of shame because I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm doing all of these things, but I'm not feeling any better. I'm not feeling any different. And so what am I doing wrong? And for years, I was really stuck there. And it wasn't until I started doing somatic work and nervous system work that I was like, oh, this is the missing piece. There's so much inside, so much grief and trauma, really, that was just sitting there unprocessed. So. Yeah.
- [13:56]
A
So I think it's time. Can you share with us what the somatic approach is?
- [14:01]
C
Yes. And I. It's a little difficult to explain because it is so experiential, but I'm going to do my best with a somatic approach. We're really looking at how we're experiencing something from within our body, which is separate from our thoughts about it. So we're really focusing on how we're feeling and sensing things instead of how we're thinking about things. So this means exploring emotions and physical sensations and body movements and the way our nervous system is responding. So, for example, if I had a client that was, you know, telling me about an experience they were having. I might say to them, and as you are telling me this, what are you noticing in your body? And from there we really gently explore what comes up in whatever way it wants to come up. And by listening to this language of the body, we're able to gain a much deeper understanding of what's truly going on within us. We're able to see what needs to be acknowledged and what needs to happen in order for us to process and move forward. So yeah, it's really a way to. We're not only just processing these emotions and traumas and experiences, but we're also working with the nervous system to build a greater capacity to be with all of the feelings and to be with whatever life throws at us. Yeah.
- [15:38]
A
So what would you say to someone who would have a reaction such as, I know I'm experiencing grief and I know if I do what you just said, it's going to be really uncomfortable and I don't want that. So I'm just going to avoid this because that can be true too. Like it's going, I'm assuming for the majority of us it's going to feel uncomfortable and emotions like anger, anxiety like those might arise. So what if someone's avoiding this type of work because they don't want to feel that way?
- [16:13]
C
Yeah, that is what's so great about this work is because it's so slow and gentle, it's very different than like a traditional talk therapy because, you know, I'm sure some people that have been to talk therapy, they might know what I mean by saying, sometimes we can leave feeling worse. We tell this story for an hour and then we're like, oh, I just feel almost worse leaving. I almost feel re traumatized. And that's kind of the opposite of what happens with somatic work. We really just take really tiny, tiny bite sized pieces of a feeling. So we're not diving into the feeling, but we're only feeling into how much that person's nervous system can tolerate at a time. So I really learned someone's nervous system before I even go into working with any kind of emotional processing. So someone might, especially people with chronic illness, they don't quite feel safe in their bodies anymore. Right. And so sometimes the work is just finding just a little bit of safety within the body before we even go into any grief work or emotional work. So yeah, it's very slow and gentle and at the pace of the person and their nervous system.
- [17:33]
A
One reason I really like this concept is because it puts you as the person with a chronic illness, back in control again. I'm a huge fan of talk therapy, so I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing that, but with talk therapy at least when I go, I'm looking for advice from them. Like, you tell me what you're hearing, what you're seeing, like diagnose me of why this is happening. Whereas somatic work seems more like it's already within you. You just need someone like you who's bringing that more to the surface.
- [18:09]
C
Oh, that. You said it so beautifully. That's exactly what it is. A much more gentle way of working with someone. But you go so much deeper. And it is, I follow them. Everything is already within them and I am, I'm bringing it up to the surface in the most gentle way, safest way.
- [18:30]
A
This was really cool to experience when you were doing this in our Missing link guest speaker call because people shared afterwards how they felt as you took us through the practice. And obviously it was a group setting, not like an individual setting, but it was really interesting because everyone experienced something different. And some people had a more positive feeling from the exercise, other people had a more anxiety producing feeling. And than you had suggested on that call, you'd guide that person differently based on how they're feeling, which I love. That unique individualized approach.
- [19:07]
C
Oh yes. I'm following and tracking someone throughout a whole session and I'm just their guide, kind of through their own body, but I'm taking them through whatever they're experiencing from within, inside themselves.
- [19:20]
A
Right. So the somatic approach, it can help us process what we're going through by feeling it, by tuning into our emotions and our feelings. Why is the nervous system such a big component in this, in working through grief and with moving forward? We know that for a lot of chronic illnesses, especially ms, the nervous system plays a huge role. But how does that translate to grief and these big changes?
- [19:53]
C
Well, first of all, the job of our nervous system is to protect us, to keep us safe and to help us survive. Right. So when we are living life with chronic illness, we're going through a lot that doesn't feel safe. And we are kind of in this survival, right? There's so much change happening, there's symptoms, there's this uncertainty of what each day will bring or what the future will bring. And so nothing about that feels safe to our nervous system. And so our nervous system can really go on high alert. Right. And so it can move into these different protective responses. So in One aspect, we can go into a more of a fight or flight response and that's where we're feeling hypervigilant and anxiety. We might feel a sense of urgency and kind of this go, go, go, we've got to fix everything. Or we can fall into a more freeze or shutdown state. And that's when we're experiencing more numbness, we're feeling helpless, we feel like we can't, you know, we're stuck or frozen. We can't really get up and do anything, just really shut down. The little things in life seem way too hard to do. And so it's okay for our nervous system is meant to go through all of these different protective responses, but we're also meant to come back to our baseline. Right. We're supposed to move in and out of these states. And what can happen when we're in a chronic illness where we can stay kind of chronically in these responses and we can actually get stuck there. And when we are stuck there, it can cause us a lot of problems. Our immune system doesn't work as well, so it can worsen our symptoms. We can develop new symptoms. But also as pertaining to grief, it can really keep us stuck in grief as well. Because when our nervous system is in a survival state, it makes it almost impossible to really process any emotions or experiences that are happening to us. We're really just kind of stuck. And so, yeah, I mean, the nervous system is huge with chronic illness. And it's so tricky for me.
- [22:19]
A
It's so tricky because I feel like for a lot of us, you know, you would assume that survival mode feels bad because like fight or flight. But I feel like for a lot of us, survival mode actually feels better because it's allowing us to not have to feel uncomfortable processing the hard things. It or it's easier. Like you might be drawn to more chaos or constant like hyper vigilant, go, go, go. Because even though that's in a survival mode characteristics, I guess that can still feel better than acknowledging what is really happening. Right.
- [23:02]
C
And, and you know, there's nothing wrong with being. We're meant to go into those states because they are helpful for us. Right? That fight or flight state is helpful and that's why it does feel helpful. But we're not meant to stay there all the time. We're meant to come back into more of a regulated state where we're feeling more, you know, safe and connected and more at ease. Right. So. And that's where the problem lies is when we get stuck in there It's. There's no problem with being in the fight orf flight state. It's just when we get stuck, because when we get stuck, then we can't process the things going on within us, and it's too hard on our. Our system.
- [23:45]
A
Yeah. I like the way that you just shared that, because I think it makes it, this work, feel more doable because it sets up the expectation, or not the expectation, but rather the goal isn't to go from survival mode 247 to common peace 24 7. It feels like it allows me to still go there if that's what feels best for me, but just not 24 7. Like, let's come out of that. And that just feels more doable and realistic.
- [24:14]
C
Yeah. That is what we're meant to do. I mean, the definition of a resilient nervous system is being able to move in and out of the states, flowing in and out of states. There's no state that is good or bad. They're all important in their own ways, but we just can't get stuck in one place too long.
- [24:31]
A
Mm. So one thing that you mentioned to our Missing Link members that I think would be important to mention here as well, are the key elements to rebuilding yourself after loss. You know, creating this new way of living, building greater capacity. Can you share a bit about that and what we should know about it?
- [24:50]
C
Yeah. I think in what I see in clients, and I know I did this myself as well, is, you know, we're just trying to gain control. We just want to have some normalcy in our life. We just want to get to that place where we're okay again. And in order to get there, we really have to make sure we're taking care of all the stuff going on inside of us. We have to take care of how we're experiencing this. Right. And so we really do have to learn how to support ourselves emotionally and to support our nervous system as well. And that means we have to either work with someone to do that, or we can, you know, find tools on our own. But having this toolbox to be able to help ourselves in the moments that are hard, like a symptom flare up or getting hit with a wave of emotions, if we don't know how to support ourselves through that, we can't get to the other side of things, to where we have that more normalcy or that more easeful life. And so that's a lot of the work that I do, is kind of giving people the tools to help grow their capacity and to be able to Support themselves through all those really hard moments. I think, you know, my therapist, we keep talking about therapy. I had a therapist that I worked with years and years ago. And I remember she handed me a book on about acceptance. And I remember reading the book and it made so much sense to me in my mind, but I was not able to feel it and I didn't know how to feel it. And the reason why is because I had so much inside of me that I wasn't tending to and I hadn't processed. So if I'm walking around with all of these emotions and experiences and trauma stored in my body and walking around like that every day, how am I supposed to accept that? Right. So it's like we have to work with what's going on within us before we can get to that next place.
- [27:01]
A
Yeah. Have you ever heard of the book the Desire Map?
- [27:06]
C
I haven't.
- [27:07]
A
Okay. So I don't know why our conversation right now is reminding me about this book, but it is, I guess I would call it a personal development book or maybe even professional development, but it's all about setting goals, personal or professional, but it's based on how they feel. So you don't set goals of like, I want to, you know, help this number of clients, but instead how would it feel when you are helping that number of clients? Or you don't set the goal of I want to exercise five days a week. You set the goal of how that would feel. Feel, and you really. It's all about tapping into our emotions around it and you take the actions that move you toward that feeling.
- [27:53]
C
I love that. That is really a lot of what somatic work is.
- [27:57]
A
Yeah.
- [27:58]
C
A lot of it is that. Yes.
- [28:00]
A
It's crazy how little it's talked about though. Like, I mean, and maybe there are other books that I'm unaware of, but that's. I've read a lot of personal development, professional development books. That's the only one that I'm aware of that taps really into the emotions. Like that's what the entire book is about.
- [28:15]
C
Yeah. I don't know why it's so hard to find that. Because, I mean, just like I said, I went through years and years of many self help books and therapies, all kinds of different modalities of healing and every. So much of it was focused on just the mind, the mindset of everything. And just like we're talking about, if. If our mind isn't matching what we're feeling in our body, then we're just stuck.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah.
- [28:41]
C
Yeah.
- [28:43]
A
Is there an Example that you could give us of what your coaching is like, if people right now are like, ooh, I love the sounds of this. I want to try it. I'll ask you in a second how people can reach out to you. But for those who are like, just tell me, though, like, how. How would this look? Is there anything that you can share that would be, like, a little taste of what it might be like to work with you through somatic coaching? Mm.
- [29:08]
C
Gosh, it's hard to give just one example because just like we talked about earlier, I work with people so much as them as an individual, so people come to me in all different states. Right. So if some. Someone might, you know, not feel safe in their body at all. So we would spend a lot of time just working on that at first. If someone has. Is a little more comfortable in their body, then we'll kind of jump deeper in. But so I guess I would say when people come to me, I just really talk to them at first, hear their story and just kind of what's going on with them. We don't have to dive too deep into it because I don't want it to be triggering, but just kind of the key elements of what they're going through and how they want to feel and what their goal is, where. How they want to feel, what do they want to get out of working with me? And then we just tune in to their body and really start to explore what is present. What is going on is there. For example, someone might feel a certain sensation, perhaps like a heaviness in their chest. So we might just spend, you know, we could spend 10 minutes there of just really feeling into, well, what does the sensation feel like? What does the heaviness feel like? Is there, you know, an image that might pop up in your mind with that? Is there a color with that? There's. I mean, there are so many ways to explore that. And usually what starts to happen is something. There's a shift that eventually happens. It might be tears or it might be a different posture, or it might be a story, like a memory that pops up in their mind that they had forgotten about. I'm probably sounding all over the place right now, but that's kind of what this work is. It is kind of, you know, all over the place. We're just really following whatever comes up, and we never know. I never know when I'm working with someone what the session is going to be like. I just follow whatever is present for them.
- [31:18]
A
Yeah. Well, this has been so helpful, and I'm so grateful that you came on to share this type of work because again, it's not talked about enough and I feel like you don't. You make it sound not scary, which is really great because anything that feels scary is something that we're probably not going to try. At least not like jump and try because we're just so excited for it. So I appreciate your approach to it. And if anyone is listening and they're like, yeah, I want to work with Ashley, where can they find you? How should they reach out?
- [31:54]
C
You could find me on my website, ashleymylas.com and I would just encourage anyone, if they're interested in this work, to book a free consult with me. I offer a free 45 minute consult where we can just talk and get to know each other and just kind of explore. If this might be something you'd want to do. Awesome.
- [32:16]
A
I'll put that website in the show notes for anyone interested. But thank you again for coming on, sharing your expertise and giving us an idea of what this looks like and perhaps more importantly, what it might feel like. I really appreciate it.
- [32:30]
C
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it too.
- [32:39]
A
Thank you for listening to today's show.
- [32:42]
B
I am so grateful to have you as a listener. If you'd like extra resources such as a video of one of my seated exercise classes, my favorite core exercises, and the opportunity to ask me your questions, head to missinglink.com insider. That link will be shared in the show notes along with links to my social media handles. If you loved this episode and think a friend or family member with Ms. Would benefit from listening, please go ahead and text or email this podcast podcast to them right now. Sharing this podcast will help me educate and empower as many Ms. Warriors as possible. Thanks again for joining and be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the Missing Link Podcast.