Dr. Michael Heiser (0:07)

You're listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. To support this podcast, go to nakedbiblepodcast.com and click on the support link in the upper right hand corner. If you're new to the podcast and Dr. Heiser's approach to the Bible, click on New start here@nakedbiblepodcast.com welcome to the Naked Bible Podcast.

Trey Strickland (0:27)

Episode 477. First Samuel 28. The layman Trey Strickland, and he's a scholar, Dr. Ron Johnson. Hey, Ron, how you doing?

Dr. Michael Heiser (0:36)

Hi, Trey. Very well, thank you.

Trey Strickland (0:38)

Good, good. Well, this is your. This is your last time with us here on chapter 28. So we appreciate you.

Dr. Michael Heiser (0:45)

That's right, First Samuel 28.

Trey Strickland (0:47)

Yeah. Coming on and helping us out.

Dr. Michael Heiser (0:49)

Bringing First Samuel to a close pretty soon here.

Trey Strickland (0:52)

Well, we certainly appreciate you filling in. I wish it was under better circumstances, but just, you know, grateful that you took time to help us out here.

Dr. Michael Heiser (1:01)

You're very welcome. My pleasure to be here.

Trey Strickland (1:04)

Well, I'm ready if you are.

Dr. Michael Heiser (1:05)

I sure am. Yeah. Let's jump into 1 Samuel 28. This the day has come when the Philistines are going to make another attack on Israel. What's interesting is how far north the Philistines have come. They are usually down on the southwest side of Israel, you know, down by Gaza. And here they are all the way up into the valley of Jezreel. So it kind of opens with an odd moment in, in their history, Israel's history, when the Philistines have been able, under King Saul, to push this far north. And that's where the story starts. So let's just work through it verse by verse and just watch a very fascinating story unfold. It does remind me of the ghost movie, you know, with Whoopi Goldberg. So let's see how much we can recollect that movie. Kind of feel, you know, as we go through this. 28 3. Now, Samuel had died. That's back in 25 1. And all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land. The mediums and spiritists are a pair of Hebrew words that usually work together some 20 times in the Old Testament. They're always considered the enemy when it comes to how God has considered someone who deals in the realm of the supernatural. When it comes to Yahweh, of course, he will be a jealous God that does not want people to have communion with what seemed to be rebellious spirits. So we'll talk more about that later. When we get there in the story. But in the, in the beginning of the story, it says that Saul had put them out of the country, out of the land. That seems to have been a political move at best, because when we get to verse nine, we still have one, and she's just laying low, you know, she's underground, so they're still there. I think it was just a half hearted move at best. Now, verse four. Then the Philistines gathered together and they came and encamped at Shunam. Saul gathered all Israel together. They encamped at Gilboa. Here's one of those places in Israel where you can literally sit and read this story on site. Shunem is in the west end of the valley of Jezreel. And the Philistines are encamped thus in the valley. And Saul and Israel there, at the city of Gilboa, which is just a few miles northwest of the mount of Gilboa, where he will die in chapter 31. So the point is, both of these armies are in plain view of each other. And when night falls, of course, everyone in that world would go to sleep and the guards would set watch. Verse 5. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the Lord of Yahweh, Yahweh did not answer him, either by dreams, Urim, or by the prophets. We've seen this before, back in chapter 23, where Saul's not just having a bad day or a sinful day, he's again, I don't think he's a Yahwist. And thus there is no immediate communication between him and Yahweh. They're just not on speaking terms. Even if Saul wants something, Yahweh is basically saying no, even through the voice of a prophet. Yahweh would say no in this instance, verse 7. Then Saul said to his servants, find me a woman who is a medium, same word used back in verse three, that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servant said to him, in fact, there is a woman who is a medium at Endor. Now, the city of Endor is a little village on the other side, north of the Philistine army, just around the corner, as it were, by Mount Tabor there. So as you sit in Gilboa and tell this story as I've done, or listen to the story being read, you can see. Well, I can't see Endor, but you know exactly where it is. And you can imagine Saul and his two servants putting on garb that night, sneaking across enemy lines and going to find this woman who will give him information from the divine world that's not from Yahweh. Okay, verse eight. So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men went with him, and they came to the woman by night. And he said, please conduct a seance. It's the same word for spiritist in Hebrew. They can conduct a seance for me and bring up for me the one I shall name to you. Verse 9. Then the woman said to him, look, you know what, Saul? She doesn't know who she's talking to has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life to cause me to die? In other words, she's saying I'm in an illegal. An illegal trade here. People, including your servants. You know, of course, is how this all starts. Know that I'm here, but I'm trying to lay low. And if you expose me, King Saul, we know how cruel he can be, may go after me. So she's nervous to be exposed as a medium. Let's pause here and ask the question, which, of course, commentators should be asking. And that is, are mediums real? Are spiritists real? I think the very question would have surprised the reader. Of course they are. That's why we have such a firm list of verses in the Old Testament that say, you know, do not go to them. Leviticus 19:37, Leviticus 26. But let me go to Deuteronomy 18, verse 10. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or anyone who practices. And here are the synonyms. Witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium or a spiritist, one who calls up the dead. Now, it would be very easy at this moment for the Bible to say, the reason you don't do this is because it's a waste of time. They're not real. These spiritists are fakes, like Whoopi Goldberg. But here's what the text says. Verse 12. For all who do these things are an abomination to Yahweh. And because of these abominations, the Lord your God drives them out before you. An interesting Next, you shall be blameless, Tamim, before the Lord your God. Sometimes translated as perfect. Tamim is not a mathematical word. It's a word of fullness or completeness. So, you know, the first three times in fact, or at least the first two times that Tamim is used in the Bible. Notice where they are. Genesis 6, 9. First time. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, Tamim in his generations. And then Genesis 17:1. The subject is Abraham. When Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, I am Almighty God. Walk before me and be Tamim. The word again is, I think, as close as you can get to a New Testament concept of being saved or being righteous or being proper with God. So when we talk about how is a person saved in the Old Testament, I think it's as simple as, and I've mentioned this before in our previous times together, it's as simple as which Elohim do they worship? Just look for that part of the story of their life. Which God do they worship? And that's how you'll know whether it's Noah, whether it's Abraham or now, whether it's Saul or David to come, whether this person is blameless or able to be considered righteous or proper in the mind of God. So when we get to. By the way, Jeremiah 8 would be then the. Probably the best way in my estimation, to define the plan of salvation in the Old Testament by its opposite. Listen to how it goes. This is in the days of just preceding the 586 exile. Jeremiah 8:1. At that time, says the Lord, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah and the bones of its princes, and the bones of the priests, the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem out of their graves. They shall spread them before the sun and the moon and all the host of heaven. And that's a picture commonly that Sabaot of heaven are the gods that God has placed over the kingdoms and. Or which. And then it says which they have, that's these prophets, priests, inhabitants, which they have loved, after which they. And which they have served, and after which they have walked, which they have sought. There's that inquiring of a God idea. And which they have worshiped. They shall not be gathered nor buried. They shall be like refuse on the face of the earth. Then death shall be chosen rather than life. So if you have an Old Testament model again of. Of what salvation is, that is life instead of death. It's pictured out there. It is pictured here in Jeremiah 8 in review for the family of Israel as to why God sent not only the people into exile, but why God would consider a Person, an individual, righteous or not, based again, on which God they sought, loved and worshiped and loved. All right, so back to our text. We ended in verse nine where the. The spirit is. The woman is being asked to conjure up someone and she's kind of nervous because she does not want to be caught by Saul. Verse 10. Saul swore to her by the Lord. Interesting. Again, watch where Saul and Yahweh get along here. Saul swore to her by the by Yahweh saying, as Yahweh lives. Now the. You know that phrase as Yahweh lives or as the Lord lives. 32 times I counted in the Old Testament as a phrase. It's spoken by many different people. David does it, Saul does it. And when Saul does it, go back to 19 6, first Samuel, 19 6, look out, because Saul is a consummate politician. Again, so Saul heeded the voice of Jonathan and Saul swore, as Yahweh lives, he, David shall not be killed. Well, he's a liar. And the idea that he would take Yahweh's name and say, as God lives, I will not. Blah, blah, blah, don't trust Saul at all. And of course, oath taking in Yahweh's name, be very, very careful. I don't think that's the third commandment in its specific meaning, but it's the idea of the Old Testament that when you start using the name of a deity for how you're going to act, that's one thing. But if you're not a Yahwist, really, look out below. I would say, but let's listen to Saul. Saul swore to her by the Lord saying, as the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing. Then the woman said, whom shall I bring up to you? Interesting question. And he said, and now again, if you could bring up anybody, who would you want to talk to? And it's interesting, he says, bring up Samuel. For me, the reason he does this is because back in 3:19 it says, and I think this is a summary statement for most of Samuel's life that his words never fell to the ground. Meaning if there's anybody who could have a more accurate read on the mind of Yahweh, it you couldn't find him. Samuel was the guy, you know. So my point is that even Saul Ananyawist knew who to go to if he wanted to know the mind of Yahweh. And of course, what he's asking for we're going to find out is whether he should go to war against The Philistines. It's always a common thing that you go to the patron deity to find out if you should go to war or not, as any leader would of any nation. And here, of course, Saul is doing it with Yahweh. He's trying to. Anyway, verse 12. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. I. I call this the Exodus 9 or Exodus 8:19 moment. Kind of that, you know, when Whoopi Goldberg gets freaked out by the appearance of the Ghost in Exodus 8:19. That's Pharaoh's magicians when they say, this is the digit of Elohim behind one of Moses. Miracles, apparently. Meaning this is beyond the human realm. They were reporting to Pharaoh. You're dealing with a guy here who's not just a human in his movements. He's dealing with a very powerful Elohim. So that's when this woman shrieks out, right? So we would have to ask, well, what was she expecting? Why is she screaming? And thus, what was she expecting? Would be the background question, my guess. And two quick answers, you know, come to mind. One would be, and this is common among the commentators, she was expecting nothing. She was a fraud. And she was going to control the situation. And it quickly got out of control, right? Or, and this is where I would fall, she was hoping to somehow contact the other world. But she had an experience that was more real than she expected it would be. Well, and I forget if I've told you this story, Trey, but when I was doing my dissertation on the gods in the New Testament, the principalities and powers of Paul. Stop me if I've told the story before, but I would work late into the night at my office, at school, at the Christian college I was teaching at. And it would come to about 1 in the morning, and the janitor would come and he'd knock on my door and it was time to go home. He wanted to. You know, I guess it was just a policy to empty out the building at a certain point. And I was in a process of finishing this dissertation up, and I'd be up late almost every night. And so usually he'd come by and, hey, how you doing? Good. All right, better get out. And I'd wrap up my stuff, you know, and I'd whistle down the hallway on the way out to my car. And it was totally dark. It's a very ominous kind of building at night. Very high ceilings. There's reputation on campus that one of these buildings, in fact the one I was in, was haunted and all this. And I Remember thinking and saying, even to the Lord, you know, if I met, because my dissertation was on the gods or angels, if people wanted to ask, a popular way of saying it. And so I would even say to God, wouldn't it be neat to meet an angel? That would really help my chapter discussion on whatever I was doing. And I just remember the feeling, especially talking with Mike about it because we were both in our dissertation stages at this point and we agreed that the question or the, the consideration that it would be nice to see an angel that's very ill informed because the point of the Bible is if you saw one, you'd be freaked out. In other words, the answer coming back to me from God would be, you don't want to trust me. And so I think what happens here, and this would be evidence for it, for what I'm saying is that when the woman saw what God gave her, and that is either a vision of or a real, you know, moment of seeing Elohim, she freaks out and she screams with a loud voice. And then she says to Saul, why have you deceived me? You are Saul. So she must have understood through this moment that Saul was who he was. Verse 13. And the king said to her, do not be afraid. What do you see? Now apparently he doesn't see anything. He can hear things, but he can't see it. And the woman said to Saul, I saw a Elohim. Now in our Bibles, here's where, take a look at your own version. My new King James has I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth. But I have a footnote. Hebrew is Elohim. So literally she says, here's what I saw Saul. I saw Elohim coming up. Now the modifying principle participle there for coming up as plural. So we know, and only the Septuagint gets this right, by the way. And the old King James, what she says is, I saw plural Elohim coming up. Gods. I saw gods coming up. The fact that our translations, take a look at what you have differ. The fact that our translations differ is due to or reveals that translators are very uncomfortable still in our modern world with the concept of plural deities. God is used in the singular small G in the rsv, NLT and esv. The word spirit is there in the tev. The new King James, the niv, the cev, the Holman Christian has spirit form, whatever that is. Divine being is what's in the net. The new rsv, the NASB and the Jerusalem Publication Society, the Jewish Bible. But like I say in The Septuagint, the Greek rendering of the Old Testament, they have theus gods plural. And the old King James has gods plural. I saw gods coming up. So it's just funny to me. And Mike and I talked a lot about this. Is it conspiratorial that our modern versions seem to avoid the word God, small G, and put in words like spirit or divine being or just completely, you know, fool us and put in angel or something like that for a lot of these translations, again, I don't think I told you this story. This is back in 2004. I think it was early 2000s, when the NIV was being redone into today's NIV, it's called in 2005, they came out with today's NIV, Zondervan did. And back in the year before that, I remember at ets, they asked members of ETS could go to the general editor of it as they were finishing up their translations, and you could make recommendations for how you wanted a reading in the new NIV to sound. There's like 13 translators and 40 reviewers, but you could make recommendations before they came out with the finalized versions. Like, instead of with child, say pregnant, things like that. And that's good. I'm always in favor of retranslations periodically. And you'd go into this hotel suite. I did. And you give the editor. He sat behind a desk and I handed him a list of. I remember very well 21 places where I believe the word gods G O D s, small G should appear in the text in the new NIV because of the Hebrew word behind it, Elohim. Just like this one. This would have been one of those examples. And I remember waiting anxiously and, you know, a year and a half, two years go by, and I take a look at the new NIV when it came out, and not one of my recommendations were followed. So I had to smile. But it's just funny how, you know, we're. We're improving our Bibles all the time, but when it comes to putting the word G o d s with a small G, we're still very nervous to do it. By the way, here's a, you know, the parallel account of this story where a person observes a moment, a freakish moment, and tells an audience what they saw. Is Daniel 3. King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished. He arose and said, did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire. And one is. And they are not Hurt. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods, meaning he is a. He's not human. Whatever this is, it ain't human. And so bar Elahin, son of God, in Aramaic, equivalent to Ben Elohim, B' Nai Elohim. I just think it means it ain't human. And so what the woman saw was something that she had no vocabulary for, except to say, I saw non humans, and yet they are spirits of some kind. So I took the time with that just to remind myself that when you're reading the Bible with the Divine Council worldview, you're going to have to take information into the story because sometimes the. Almost always the translation will let us down. Verse 14. So he said to her, and I think Saul at this point knows that he's dealing with an actual story now that he has been given by God, be it for good or ill, for his sake, truth. And he is now curious what he saw. She saw. And he said to her, what is his form again? He can't see it. And she said, an old man is coming up and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down again. In the Old Testament and even in the New, it's not uncommon for a person to bow in the presence of an Elohim, even if it's not Yahweh, that bowing is not signaling breaking the first commandment. It just means that whenever you meet a divine being, of course the first thing you do is get down. And that's what he's going to do here. Doesn't mean that Samuel or his understanding of Samuel is that he's a, you know, he's an El. He's a equivalent of Yahweh. It just means you. You get down and prostrate yourself. This, you know, this story, by the way, is this actually Samuel? I think whatever you do, you're going to have trouble because if it's the actual Samuel, there's going to be be some problems in the story with what he says. Is it a vision of Samuel? I think that's possible. Whatever we do think of it this way, God is attempting to say something very serious to Saul and he's using an accommodation to do so. And so whatever's going on, this is Yahweh working behind the curtain. And I'm open to options from there as to what Samuel and. Or what this woman saw. But it's kind of like the parable of the rich man. And Lazarus. I don't think that Jesus is trying to teach the reality of being able to yell across the chasm, you know, back and forth how they did the story is meant to say that earthly choices are permanent in the next world. And short of that, we have a lot of parts of that parable, for example, that I just don't think you can make walk on all fours. And maybe this story is made to be the same way. The point is that God was trying to get some truth through to Saul and he's going to do it through this apparent vision of Samuel. Well, verse 15. Now, Samuel said to Saul, why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? See, notice. And I won't take time for it. But if you go to Job 14, verses 7 to 12, Psalm 115, verse 17, and Ecclesiastes 6, 6, let me give you one example. I'll do the Psalms one for you. What God's doing, or the speaker, if it's Samuel, he's accommodating the ancient's view of where dead people are. Psalm 115, 17. The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence. Of course, the Old Testament is replete with the idea that dead people go down to the pit and that that's where they abide in silence or in dusty, musty quietude. It's not hell. It's also not fun, it's boring. And so that's the idea of death in the Old Testament. And so if you have the real Samuel talking here, at least you have to say he's keeping with the accommodation model, that when the ancients thought of death, they thought of going down into a pit. So what we can't say is that Samuel's in heaven because of verse 19 coming up, and you'll see that in a moment. But anyway, verse 16. Did I finish? 15 no, I didn't. Why did you disturb me by bringing me up? And Saul answered, and he says this, I am deeply distressed, for the Philistines make war against me. God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore either. By prophets, by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do. Samuel said, verse 16. Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and he's become your enemy again. That's never said of a Yahwist. It's always said of a non covenant person. 17 the Lord has done for himself as he spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, namely David. We've already heard that story. Because why, verse 18, you did not obey the voice of Yahweh. Again, there's that idea of what it means to worship the right God. You simply obey the voice of Yahweh. Lest we say, as sometimes the reformed tradition gets into, well, no one can obey perfectly. Isn't that the curse of the law, that you have to be perfect? No, the Old Testament is clear that you can obey. Listen to what we hear about David later. In 1st Kings 14:8, God is talking about David, and he says, he tore the kingdom away from the house of David, gave it to you, and yet you have not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments and who followed me with all his heart to do only what was right in my eyes. Also in 15:5 First Kings, David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and had not turned aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life. Except, of course, the matter of Uriah the Hittite. So, yes, he's got blemishes on his record. But when it comes to obeying the voice of the Lord, it's kind of like our wedding vows today. When we hear a man promise, you know, the moon to his bride at their wedding, we don't walk away saying, oh, yeah, right, he's going to do that. No, we honor that. And that if 50 years later, they celebrate their anniversary, we talk about their faithfulness to each other, not that they were perfect, but the idea of faithfulness is a possibility in the story of Scripture. And David does it, and we do it too. The point is. And so when we hear in 17 and 18 that God is taking the kingdom from Saul and giving it to someone else because of obedience issues, that's it. We're simply talking again, about which Elohim, you obey, verse 19. Moreover, the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. Here's the promise that Samuel's telling Saul, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Well, that's not with me in heaven, of course. That's with me in death. So the point being, like in 2 Samuel 12, when. When David is crying over the death of Bathsheba's and his child, remember that. And he says, he will not, or I, I cannot go to him, but he will. Well, I probably shouldn't quote it since I can, but now he is dead. Why, this is 2nd Samuel 12:23. But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again. I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me again. I take that to mean I shall go to him in death. He will not return to me in life is what he's saying there. We're not talking about, you know, babies being in heaven. Let's finish it up then in first Samuel. In fact, I'll just summarize verses 20 to 25. Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground and was dreadfully afraid. He finally gets up from the ground. Interesting. In verse 24, the woman had a fatted calf in the house. She hastened to kill it, and she took flour and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread. The point is, he spent all night there, and they even had a. Had a meal that took a while to prepare. She brought him before Saul and his servants. They ate, then they arose and went away that night. And that ends our reading. So he will die, of course, in chapter 31, Saul will touch fulfill this prophecy. And remember, this whole story is being bracketed though by 1st Chronicles 10, 13, that God killed Saul because of his unfaithfulness and the witch of the endor. The endor witch story is brought up in 1 Chronicles 10, 13 and 14 as the reason that God kills Saul. So this is a very important moment in the biblical story. Well, let me just make some points in conclusion. Bringing a divine council worldview. This is a good story that illustrates the fact that bringing a divine council worldview into the text is the only way to appreciate the text. That is what you bring in is what you're going to get out. And here are some things that we caught. Number one, are the gods real? Yes. Number two, are mediums and spiritists real? Well, they can be, and that's why the story works as it does. Number three, is God's jealousy for our worship reality. Absolutely. And this is again why I think we could argue so carefully for the reality of God's. And that is that when God hears us praying to another deity, he's not sad, he's angry. He's not listening to this conversation we're having with Mickey Mouse. Right. He's actually hearing us talk to other real beings. And that makes him sad or, I'm sorry, angry. Four, worship is behind every, well, almost every story of the Bible, and it's certainly behind every story dealing with salvation. So as I've said before, let's not put the privilege, that is Forgiveness of sins, ahead of the means of entrance into salvation. The only way to be saved in the Bible is to worship the right God. And when we do, we're forgiven of our sins. But we cannot tell someone who's not worshiping Yahweh to ask forgiveness. That's again, getting the cart before the horse. And lastly, as I've said, this whole story is about Saul being replaced by David, not because David, again, will be a behaviorally better person. I think you could list the moral mistakes of David and Saul and notice that David probably beats Saul when it comes to how bad he can be morally. We know more about him, frankly, so sins are not less on his ledger than Saul's for sure. But the reason that this is important is because David. Let me finish with this. David alone is able to say Psalm 24, starting in verse three, a Psalm of David. Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord, who may stand in his holy place, he who has clean hands and a pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, nor sworn deceitfully, he shall receive the blessing from the Lord and righteousness from the God of his salvation. A person in the Old Testament could be righteous simply because they have not lifted their heart up to an idol. And that's what David will be. He will be a man according to, or a man after God's heart. So that's the story, of course, of Second Samuel. Thank you, Trey. That was fun. And appreciate the opportunity to work through 1st Samuel 28.