Naked Bible Podcast Episode 477: 1 Samuel 28

Date: August 19, 2023
Host: Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Guests: Trey Strickland (Layman), Dr. Ron Johnson (Scholar, filling in after Dr. Heiser’s passing)
Theme: A deep, "stripped bare" exploration of the account of Saul and the medium at Endor in 1 Samuel 28, viewed through the lens of biblical context and the Divine Council worldview.

Episode Overview

This episode provides an in-depth, verse-by-verse analysis of 1 Samuel 28: The story of King Saul seeking guidance from the medium at Endor before his final battle with the Philistines. Dr. Johnson and Trey Strickland explore historical, theological, and linguistic contexts, challenge common misconceptions, and integrate the Divine Council worldview. The discussion covers Saul’s spiritual state, the reality of mediums and spiritists, translation issues, and the criteria for salvation/righteousness in the Old Testament.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting and Context

• The Philistines have advanced unusually far north, encamped at Shunem in the Jezreel Valley, directly across from Saul’s army at Gilboa (01:05).
• This strategic scenario sets the stage for Saul's desperation and the narrative’s sense of impending doom.

2. Saul and the Mediums: Are They "Real"?

• Saul had previously banished mediums/spiritists (likely a political, not wholehearted, move), but seeks one out when God is silent (03:14).
• Discussion on Deuteronomy 18 and Leviticus prohibitions: Ancient Israelites—and the biblical text—treat mediums as real, not as fakes ("the very question [whether mediums are real] would have surprised the reader. Of course they are."—Dr. Johnson, 09:17).

3. The Nature of Salvation and Righteousness in the Old Testament

• Salvation in the OT: Determined primarily by whom one worships (Yahweh or another elohim), not by systematized doctrine or sinlessness (10:58).
  • "How is a person saved in the Old Testament? ... Which Elohim do they worship?" (Dr. Johnson, 10:58)

4. Encounter with the Medium at Endor: Linguistic and Theological Observations

• Saul visits the medium in disguise. The woman is afraid due to the prohibition and potential punishment for her work (12:34).
• Saul swears by Yahweh to protect her, revealing his political maneuvering and compromised relationship with God (17:20).
  • "Saul is the consummate politician...Don't trust Saul at all." (Dr. Johnson, 16:48)

5. What Did the Medium See? Translation Hot Spots

• The medium sees “elohim coming up out of the earth” (19:07):
  • Most modern translations render this as “spirit” or “divine being,” but the Hebrew is plural, “gods/Elohim.”
  • Only the Septuagint and the old King James get the plural right ("I saw gods coming up"—Dr. Johnson, 21:02).
  • Dr. Johnson recounts unsuccessful efforts to have the NIV revise such translation choices, highlighting lingering discomfort in translating “gods” when the Hebrew reads “elohim” (22:48).
  • "It's just funny how... when it comes to putting the word g-o-d-s with a small g, we're still very nervous to do it." (Dr. Johnson, 23:32)

6. The Theological Meaning of the "Appearance"

• The woman's fearful reaction is interpreted as shock at unexpectedly genuine supernatural contact: "She was hoping to somehow contact the other world. But she had an experience that was more real than she expected." (Dr. Johnson, 15:44)
• Relates the reaction to biblical and personal anecdotes about real supernatural encounters being fear-inducing, not comforting (recalling his own late-night dissertation work on angels and the supernatural, 15:44).

7. Samuel’s Appearance and The Question of the Afterlife

• Samuel's spirit is described according to ancient cosmology—as coming "up" from Sheol, a silent, shadowy underworld, not “heaven” (28:34).
• "What we can't say is that Samuel's in heaven." (Dr. Johnson, 28:34)
• Samuel reiterates Saul’s judgment: God has rejected him and will give the kingdom to David, not for perfect obedience, but for faithfulness to Yahweh alone (29:55).
  • "Simply obey the voice of the Lord; it's faithfulness that counts." (Dr. Johnson, 30:34)

8. Obedience, Worship, and the Divine Council Worldview

• Divine jealousy: God's anger over worship directed to "real" rival spiritual beings, not simply fictional entities (27:00).
  • "He's not listening to this conversation we’re having with Mickey Mouse. ... He's actually hearing us talk to other real beings. And that makes him ... angry." (Dr. Johnson, 27:13)
• The standard of righteousness: One’s loyalty and worship toward Yahweh, not sinlessness or moral perfection (31:00).

9. Reflections on Bible Study and Scholarship

• Discussion of translation difficulties and biblical complexity versus accessibility (32:24).
  • "Reading the Bible is difficult ... it's as simple as you want it to be and as hard as you want it to be." (Dr. Johnson, 32:41)
• Critique of the term "scholar" for Bible students—Bible study is a never-ending path, and expertise is always limited (33:48).

10. Personal Stories: The Reality of the Supernatural

• Stories about real-life requests to "exorcise" a house and the importance of praying for people, not places (35:23).
• Warnings against seeking out supernatural experiences—danger and reality of spiritual beings (38:44).
  • “You don't go looking for trouble. ... The reason you stay away is because it's very, very real.” (Dr. Johnson, 38:44)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On OT Salvation:
  "How is a person saved in the Old Testament? ... Which Elohim do they worship?" (10:58, Dr. Johnson)

• On Saul’s Leadership:
  "Saul is the consummate politician. ... Don't trust Saul at all." (16:48, Dr. Johnson)

• On the Medium’s Fearful Reaction:
  "When the woman saw what God gave her ... she freaks out and she screams with a loud voice." (15:44, Dr. Johnson)

• On Translation Choices:
  "It's just funny how ... when it comes to putting the word g-o-d-s with a small g, we're still very nervous to do it." (23:32, Dr. Johnson)

• On Spiritual Reality:
  "He's not listening to this conversation we’re having with Mickey Mouse. ... He's actually hearing us talk to other real beings. And that makes him ... angry." (27:13, Dr. Johnson)

• On Bible Study Depth:
  "I've never liked the term scholar when it comes to Bible stuff ... How does a human ever get to the point of being able to consider themselves a scholar? I think it's very hard." (33:48, Dr. Johnson)

• On Seeking the Supernatural:
  "You don't go looking for trouble ... if you hear about something demonic ... you stay away because it's very, very real." (38:44, Dr. Johnson)

Important Timestamps

• 01:05: Introduction to the Philistine threat and context of 1 Samuel 28
• 09:17: OT attitude toward mediums and spiritists; Deuteronomy 18
• 10:58: How salvation/righteousness is determined in the OT
• 15:44: The medium’s reaction and what it says about real supernatural encounters
• 17:20: Saul’s use of Yahweh’s name; political oaths and hypocrisy
• 19:07 – 23:32: Translation issues: “elohim” as "gods" vs. "spirit", discomfort with plural "gods"
• 27:13: God’s jealousy and the reality of other divine beings
• 30:34: Obedience and faithfulness as the mark of a "righteous" person
• 32:24 – 33:48: On the challenge and reward of Bible study and the notion of "Bible scholars"
• 35:23: Real-life supernatural stories and lessons about spiritual caution
• 38:44: Advice—don’t seek out supernatural encounters; spiritual world is real and dangerous

Conclusion & Final Takeaways

• Divine Council Worldview: Interpreting difficult passages like 1 Samuel 28 requires an openness to the biblical representation of real supernatural beings.
• Central Themes: Loyalty to Yahweh, rather than sinless perfection, determines Old Testament righteousness. God’s jealousy presupposes the real presence of rival spiritual beings.
• Practical Wisdom: Caution is advised concerning the supernatural. Dr. Johnson and Dr. Heiser counsel humility, both in Bible study and spiritual experience.
• Legacy: Through stories and scholarship, this episode honors Dr. Heiser’s legacy of rigorous, context-driven biblical interpretation and his willingness to explore the Bible’s supernatural worldview.

For further study:

• 1 Samuel 28
• Deuteronomy 18
• Psalm 115:17
• 1 Kings 14:8; 15:5
• 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

[End of episode summary]