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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Necessary Conversation midweek edition. Today we have myself, my other lefty sister, my mom, and a very special guest. With us today is Rich Logis, the founder of Leaving maga. Mom, what do you think about this?
- [00:20]
B
Well, welcome, I welcome all of our guests. Let's see how this goes.
- [00:25]
A
No, I'm, I'm very excited to have you here, Rich, because I feel like we've done a lot on this podcast to expose my mom to people that she would never talk to otherwise. Like, we had Peppermint on. Who I think is the first trans person you've ever talked to, right, Mom?
- [00:39]
B
Yes.
- [00:40]
A
And I think talking to people who have had different experiences, or in this case, maybe a very similar experience to kind of where you are now in your path to leaving maga, that this might be helpful for you. So, Rich, thank you for joining us before we. And mom, feel free to ask any questions. Haley, obviously, whatever. But I have a few kind of, like, things I want to start with, if you don't mind. Where did you grow up, Rich?
- [01:04]
C
So I am a, I live in Florida, but I am originally a New Yorker. And my, my family, they were your quintessential middle class parents, worked a variety of public and private sector jobs and they were not at all political, to my knowledge. I don't think my parents ever even voted. So not sure. I look back on it and I wonder exactly how I wound up where I did as this accidental activist and public figure. But it happened the way that it did and I'm really happy to be here. It's, I'm, it's a great honor for me to join you guys today and, you know, means a lot to our organization to have you welcome us to the show.
- [01:50]
A
No, it's our pleasure. I think the, you know, from all the videos and stuff that I've watched of what you're doing and obviously the big billboard campaign and stuff, it's like, I think putting the idea out there for other MAGA people like my mom, that it's like, okay. And that there are other people who are kind of like waking up to the fact that Trump has lied to you and you've been kind of hoodwinked by him. I think it's, like, incredibly helpful. That's a part of dismantling the whole Trump machine. That has to happen. So you said your parents weren't politically active. What first got you into politics?
- [02:25]
C
Well, I actually would say that my sensibilities for politics developed while I was in college. My very first vote for president was in the year 2000, when I graduated college, and that vote was for Ralph Nader. I was attracted to Ralph Nader because he had a message as part of his campaign, which was that the two parties were the same and that we basically had to tear down the system and we needed to start anew. Now, that sounds like another candidate I supported in 2015 and 16 who came on the scene and said, the two parties are essentially the same. They fail to represent most Americans except the wealthy and the powerful, and let's obliterate the established political order and let's start anew. And that was how I went from a person like Ralph Nader, whom I voted for several times, to supporting Donald Trump, because even though he ran as a Republican, of which I was not, I did not belong to any party. I was very seduced by his outsider status of having no government, military or political experience. And I didn't just vote for Trump as someone on the periphery. I worked on the campaign. I wrote part of the call script in 2016. I showed people where to get registered to vote. I recruited people to vote for Trump, including Bernie Sanders voters. And after the 2016 election, I just got deeper and deeper into the MAGA community and I found a second family. And I had feelings of camaraderie and gathering and belonging as part of being in maga. And I developed my own podcast. I spent my own money that should have gone to my family and my business, looking back on it to a podcast. I was a MAGA activist. I wrote for lots of MAGA media, including bylines in places like Fox and the Federalist. I wrote for a site called World Net Daily, which popularized the Obama birther conspiracy. I spoke at Trump groups. I was a sponsor of Trump groups. I was unapologetically and publicly a supporter of Trump and the MAGA movement. And MAGA was enthralling and exhilarating and exciting and new and novel and communal for me, until it was not.
- [05:04]
A
And, and so when you're saying, like, you, you saw similarities between Nader and Trump in that they were both kind of anti establishment, they've come from outside the kind of mainstream American political system sphere. But Trump came with a whole bunch of other stuff. When he first emerged, it wasn't just that he was like, let's tear this down. We had the Access Hollywood tape. There were, however, many allegations of sexual assault against him, all of the different financial fraud cases that had been brought against him, all the different businesses he had that had gone bankrupt. How did you reconcile all that stuff when you were first, getting into maga,
- [05:40]
C
you know, I had very much a neutral opinion of Trump when he ran. I had heard him speak about economic issues before he declared for his. His run for president. He would talk about the influence of China and jobs being outsourced and once vibrant communities that had been hollowed out. And I found myself often nodding in agreement with him. And I admit now, looking back on it, that I overlooked a lot of what would normally be disqualifying for a candidate I was looking at. And part of the reason I overlooked so much of it is because I had allowed myself to come to believe that if Hillary and the Democrats had won, that they would have seized power indefinitely. I know it's delusional to say that right now, but I very quickly fell for a lot of the propaganda and agiprop that, that if Democrats and Hillary had won, that they were going to capture the country. And I was afraid of being an irrelevant citizen in my own country. And, you know, I never. I never watched the Apprentice. I didn't follow Trump's business dealings that closely. I just thought that he was the right person for the job at the time, because I thought the two parties were the same. And I felt like he was giving voice to a lot of the frustrations and aggravation and disenchantment that lots of people in the country felt. And I. I think that there were, even though I don't believe that this. These apply any longer, I think that there were some valid concerns that people had when they decided to support Trump, whether it was economic or feeling left behind or unseen or unheard. And even though I wasn't struggling economically in 2016, I knew some people who had. I knew people who lost business to other countries. And I felt like Trump was somebody who very much so appealed to people who felt like the two parties had failed them and let them down, and that elected officials had failed to represent most Americans except the wealthy and the powerful.
- [08:03]
A
Mom, you're hearing all this stuff. Oh, somebody's phone or something's going off.
- [08:07]
B
No, I'm sorry, it's. I can't take it off. It's somebody at our front door. I'm sorry.
- [08:11]
A
Okay, it's fine. You're hearing all this that Rich is saying. Does any of this ring true for you? When you were first getting into maga,
- [08:23]
B
I liked him coming down the escalator. I liked the appeal of, we're going to make a change. It's going to be great again. America's going to be great again. I mean, some of the stuff he said. Yes, I, I hear what he's saying, but I still have my own beliefs. Sure. What I wanted to ask you, you said you did support him until not until it was not. What were the nots that, that's, that pushed you away? Is there like a couple big ones in your mind that you didn't like?
- [09:02]
C
Well, I like to paraphrase the late Ernest Hemingway in saying that my epiphany happened gradually and then suddenly all at once. And there were several reasons that led me to eventually leave maga. The first accelerant for leaving was actually not Donald Trump. It was my governor, Ron DeSantis, who in the summer of 2021 platformed Covid anti vaxxers at a press conference that he held. And this was at a time when the Delta surge was ravaging the country. Kids were befalling ill with the virus, children were dying from the virus. And as someone with two small children who's not an anti vax person, DeSantis's actions really shocked and confused me. I didn't understand why he was doing that because he had been a proponent of, of the vaccine up until that point. And after that happened, I did something that sounds very, very simple but was profoundly life altering and changing for me, which was I diversified my news and information sources. And as I and after I did that, I went back and re examined January 6th. I did not support originally what happened that day, but I thought that it had been hyperbolized into a bigger deal than it really was. I knew of groups like the proud boys and QAnon, but I, I didn't think that they had any actual influence. But after I expanded my news and info sources and after I widened my information aperture a little bit, what I came to realize very liberatingly but painfully is that a lot of what happened on January 6, Trump allowed to happen and that there was an attempt on his part and that he had culpability and was complicit in trying to overturn a free and fair election. And so after this diversification of my news and information sources, I spent the next year struggling with my doubts and had a lot of personal tumult and turmoil as I came to realize that so much of what I believed turned out to be false. I had believed that there was, as I call them in my memoir that I wrote this year, I called them a they and the they were mostly Democrats, liberals, progressives, anti Trump, Republicans who were trying to abridge my rights and trying to indoctrinate my children know a they who were trying to take my guns or trying to turn America into a communist or socialist country, that there was a they trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners, that there was a they trying to persecute Christians, trying to secularize America. These were beliefs that I sincerely held, and I knew others who also held them. So I struggled with a lot of late nights, with just my thoughts, and I having to grapple with the fact that I had been lied to, that I had believed those lies, and perhaps worst of all, I had created an entire Persona buttressed by those lies, by the fact that I had trafficked in some abhorrent and reprehensible language that I had used about Democrats where I called them worse than Nazis and malignant and domestic terrorists. This was some of the kinds of. Of rhetoric that I deployed when I was this aspiring MAGA pundit. So I dealt with that for an entire year. And the final straw for me, which was the day that I quietly left MAGA, was May 24, 2022, which was the day of the Uvalde, Texas school shooting. Even though Trump was not in office, I knew exactly how he and the Republican Party were going to respond. And they did, as I had anticipated, which was to call for more guns and more access to guns. And I'm somebody who owns a firearm. I have a concealed carry permit. I'm a believer in the Second Amendment, I'm not an anti second Amendment person. But it was one mass shooting too many for me after having witnessed one after another. And it was that day, Uvalde that I quietly left maga. But there was something that was really gnawing at me for doing it privately, because I had always been so unapologetically public in my support for Trump that on August 30, 2022, I wrote a mea culpa. And I said in this article that I published that I was sorry for supporting Trump, that I wanted to apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words, deeds and rhetoric. And the God's honest truth is that I never thought anybody would care. I wrote it thinking I would just close that chapter of my life. But it turned out that people did care. And I received one message after another from friends and relatives of those still in the thrall of MAGA asking me how they could better navigate and resurrect some of the relationships with their MAGA identified friends and close ones, relationships they thought they thought were hopeless and were lost forever. And I had to come to this conclusion, which, as hard as it was for me to come to it. I knew that it was the right decision to make to leave publicly, that I had to come to a realization that I had helped the president divide the country and that I was culpable and complicit in helping him amplify conspiracy theories that resulted in unnecessary death, trauma, and suffering. And one point that I will make about weaving maga, and I'm going to say this with some presumptuousness, so if everyone will indulge me. I think most people in maga, deep down, know that their support of Trump is wrong. But I think that one of the reasons that it makes it so hard to walk away and to admit the error of one ways is that we, as. As I was and so many in people in maga are now so deeply invested in the community. I don't think MAGA is a cult. I think it is best understood as a community where people have feelings of gathering and belonging, where there's a shared purpose and there's also a common, identified enemy. And I think that people are afraid to admit when they are mistaken because it is not a natural act for our species to apologize, especially publicly. And I think that people in MAGA who are having doubts right now, who have quietly left, I believe, for. For good and understandable reasons, they are afraid to come forward and admit a mistake because they're afraid of being judged, shamed, and ostracized.
- [16:12]
A
Yeah.
- [16:12]
C
And I would encourage everyone out there who's seeing this who have MAGA friends and relatives, don't give up on them. Because I believe most people in maga, deep down, are good people who have been led astray. I think that MAGA media and influencers, Mary Lou, I believe that they have exploited and manipulated followers, very understandable fears and concerns. And it was after I started to realize that, that I could either live in denial or I could listen to my doubts and my conscience, and I chose the latter.
- [16:49]
A
All right, There's a lot to unpack there. Let's go back to the very beginning.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah.
- [16:54]
D
I want to say this. I think it's. I think it's interesting that essentially what you said is the catalyst for all of this was your children. And so it was being a parent during COVID that kind of catapulted you into politics, because I have the same experience. It wasn't until Sandy Hook that I really kind of thought, fuck, this isn't right. You know, that was a key moment for me in. In really the trajectory of, like, me getting into politics and kind of everything revolved around this. So I just thought it was interesting that it was the same for you. It was always about my kids in the beginning, it's what threw me into it.
- [17:36]
A
And now we. We sit here as the children of our own mom, trying to get her out of the. The maga, as you put it, Rich. Th.
- [17:43]
B
I. I want to go back to the COVID I don't understand how that made you so upset. No one knew how to. To navigate Covid. Other governments in other countries didn't know how to navigate that. We were lied to by Fouchy. I do believe.
- [18:01]
A
Mom, if I may, the. The first point Rich made in what he was saying was the thing that really gave him the sense of community and wanting to be in MAGA was that MAGA was always presenting this other a they. An adversary, whether that is progressives, Democrats, people of different races. Whoever the boogeyman was, MAGA is very good in its messaging about always putting one in front of you. Right now it's Iran or trans people. I, I mean, there's always a bunch of them. But the. What Rich was saying is like, that idea is wrong. It's manufactured specifically to. To keep you as an adherent to the MAGA movement.
- [18:38]
B
So you don't think Covid was real, Chad?
- [18:41]
A
No, I'm not talking about. Yeah, it's obviously co. Was real. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, like, you and dad, for the duration of this podcast, have always been very aggressively against whoever the. The MAGA enemy du jour is.
- [18:55]
B
Yeah.
- [18:56]
A
You know, whether it's China, Iran. It can be different countries, obviously. It can be liberals, it can be antifa, whatever that is. Now they're arresting people who are just like protesters, saying you're antifa, so you go to jail. That's happening now in Minnesota. So I'm just wondering for you, mom, if hearing Rich talk about that, like, unlocks anything, because that is. That was your guys on ramp to this too is who is my enemy? In the beginning, it's Obama, obviously, and we understand why you perceive him as an enemy. But throughout the course of your tenure in maga, you've always had an enemy. Whoever Trump says is that enemy, you hate them, you. You openly talk about it, you call them names, etc. Etc. And rich is sitting here telling you that's how they got him in in the first place.
- [19:45]
B
Right. I. I understand what you're saying. I do believe also it is our sources.
- [19:51]
D
Where do.
- [19:51]
B
Where do we get our information from? We have talked about this Before. Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [19:57]
A
You're getting yours from Trump and Newsmax.
- [20:00]
B
Well, yes, I've started ground news. I do like ground news. I read a lot on X. I
- [20:07]
A
do read a lot on X. Is Trump's media magnificent?
- [20:13]
B
And I also laugh at me. Haley does too. I like to view things on Instagram, chat, gbt. They laugh at me for that.
- [20:24]
A
But like what you're seeing on Instagram is based on Zuckerberg's algorithm. So he doesn't. I, I don't, I mean whatever. Zuckerberg bends the knee and all that, all those, the big billionaires do who control these media companies, I don't actually think Zuckerberg gives a shit about who is the president or what political party is in power. All he cares about is are you watching my platform every waking moment? Because that's how he makes money, through your attention, literally looking at the screen he's built. And so he's going to feed you shit that he knows you like. And that's it. All the algorithms are designed to do that. And so it's going to reinforce whatever beliefs you have about anything. Doesn't even have to be political. Whatever's in the algorithm is literally put there so that you keep watching it.
- [21:07]
D
If you don't believe that, just experiment. Go like a couple of pages that are like super liberal and it will continue to feed you more liberal media. You don't follow anything like that. You don't like or click on anything like that, but if you do, it will then be fed to you.
- [21:25]
C
Well, I think, Mary Lou, as an experiment as well, give yourself 30 days of not watching Fox and Newsmax and see if it at all changes perhaps some of your views and perspectives. Because something that I, you know, accurate information is liberating. And something that I came to to conclude after leaving MAGA is that there has been a multi decade coordinated effort by the right wing to demonize, dehumanize and vilify Democrats, liberals and progressives. And that propaganda and ag prop is effective, it's consistent and it's disciplined. When I was in maga, all I consumed was MAGA friendly media. In fact, I even trademarked a term for media that was not Maga and I called it the Democrat media industrial Complex. That's what I thought at the time. That was. I, I actually went through the, the process of trademarking that because I believed in a, in an Enamedia that any media that was not MAGA then it must have been enemy propaganda. And that's how I felt about People who were not in maga, that if you were not with us, you were against us, and that you were either 100 with us or you were 100 against us. And anyone who was opposed to us, I looked at them not as wrong and misguided, but as an existential threat to my life, to my family, to my livelihood, and to my country.
- [23:06]
A
I want to ask you something, Rich, about. Well, I'll just say this. I think this is where, Mom. This is where I perceive you to be right now on your journey to leaving maga. We have had.
- [23:18]
B
And why do you say that? It's like,
- [23:23]
D
think about this. Think about this.
- [23:25]
B
Okay?
- [23:26]
D
When dad was first not doing well and in the hospital, you weren't watching news at all, right? And that is when we began seeing a little bit of a shift in the way that you were responding to all of the things that we were saying on the podcast.
- [23:40]
B
Okay?
- [23:40]
D
You cut all that off. You weren't newsmaxing every day. And when you were coming together with us to do this podcast, you were kind of like, oh, I guess that's not right. I guess that's not okay. So it already is in motion. You just have to eliminate all this garbage that you're being fed all day long.
- [23:58]
A
Like, let me. Let me ask you this, mom. Have you. And I don't even know if you'll answer this truthfully or not, but I'm. I'm curious. Maybe you will. Have you had with yourself a kind of internal conversation that's like, what would it be like if I didn't support Trump? Have you ever asked yourself that question?
- [24:17]
B
Not really.
- [24:18]
A
Okay. I don't know if that's honest or not, but.
- [24:22]
B
Well, I'm being honest.
- [24:23]
A
Okay. Maybe it is. I. That was a question I was going to ask you. Rich is like, I think for a lot of people who are in this situation, like our parents or like our mom is. I don't think our dad's ever coming back. But from Maga, I mean, I think there comes a point where, as you were saying, you've got all these questions now. You. You diversified how you're getting your information from different news sources, and it starts to open you up a little bit to the idea that May MAGA is a lie. Maybe you have been hoodwinked. And. And what are you gonna do with that new information? What was it like for you? I'm talking about psychologically, emotionally, when you came to that point where you had to make the decision where you were asking yourself that question, what would it be like, if I left maga, how did you, like, reconcile whatever. I'm sure the feelings that you were having about that must have been insane.
- [25:12]
C
It was. It was beyond frightening for me because I knew that leaving would mean that I was going to walk away from my second family. And as embarrassed as I am to admit this, my second family oftentimes took precedence over my own blood family. And I spent time and money that in hindsight, should have gone to my family, into my. Into my business. Maga for me was an obsession. And I knew that if I were. If I were going to leave, it not only was leaving behind a second family, but it. I had to also. I would have to also acknowledge that so much of what it was that I believed turned out to be a live falsehood or conspiracy theory. And I would like to think that. I mean, I'm not the. I'm not the brightest or the dimmest bulb. I'm a college educated person. And I had virtually no curiosity when I was in maga, which is saying something, considering that I used to be a newspaper reporter. But thankfully, the flame of my curiosity had not fully extinguished itself. And it was what led me to start to ponder these questions of, you know, why do I believe this? And is this belief true and is such and such belief accurate? And it was a lot of. Just a lot of personal turmoil for me to go through a process which I had been MAGA for, for years. And I had been addicted to the rage and the fear of being in maga. And that's something that MAGA media reinforces and affirms, is that people don't tend to watch MAGA media to be informed. They're doing it because it's. It feeds into the rage, the addiction to the rage and fear. You know, people don't watch Fox News to be informed. They're doing it because it's affirming for them the rage and fear. And I realized after leaving that when I was in maga, I was in these perpetual states of. Of fear and rage and desperation and despair and panic and paranoia. And that's a really traumatic way to live. And this militant mindset of thinking that everybody who was not with me were my enemies was a really traumatic way of living. You know, it's why I lost contact with longtime friends of mine because they had been blue Democratic voters. And I went back to them after I left maga and I said to them, I'm sorry that I spoke about you in these terms the way that I did. And all of them accepted My apology and one in particular said to me, rich, I always knew you'd come back. And I say that because for those who are seeing this, who have friends and relatives in maga, just as you guys do on this show all the time, we, we cannot give up on our MAGA friends and loved ones. Because I believe that most people in MAGA have a red wine. There will come a point where there will be one lie or one betrayal too many, and it will cause someone in MAGA to start to question their beliefs and to have doubts. And anyone who's seeing this, who is in MAGA, who's having doubts, I want them to know that they are not alone and that our organization leaving MAGA is an organization where they can find the support and the services and the safe space they need to go through this really difficult process of leaving.
- [28:55]
A
Mom, you're hearing all this. I have to imagine some of it is hitting home with you. There's a lot of things that Rich is talking about in terms of why he got into MAGA that applies to you. One for one, he's now talking about the, the red line. You have yourself on this show given us a couple of red lines. Using a nuclear weapon in Iran, pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, some kind of credible information coming out in the Epstein files about something Trump did. Those are all things that you have stated on this show would be red lines. Prior to that, though, we've been inching up, you know, through the years of all these other things, even starting a war with Iran, you thought he would never do that because he ran on that. So that is now an open lie. Obviously, we're in week 16, I think, of that war.
- [29:44]
B
That Friday, they're going to sign the
- [29:46]
A
agreement to go back to the way things were before.
- [29:49]
B
The war will be open. There'll be a 60 day negotiation.
- [29:52]
A
Yeah, we'll see.
- [29:53]
B
Ceasefire. So see, I have, I still support Trump because there are issues that I do agree with him on. There are issues that I don't. But right now, the ones that I agree with him on, I like. I like he closed our border. I like that we have more reinforcement at that border because that was a big deal. That scared me.
- [30:18]
A
But that's what Rich is talking about, that cycle of fear and rage. So it's like they scare you by saying, oh, there's 2 million psychopaths coming through the southern border, and then they give you the rage by showing you a video of somebody or putting out, like, I know all the time in social media, you're talking about, like, this guy got into a car crash on the highway because he can't even read English. So that's the rage. They give you the fear that these immigrants are coming, and then they give you the rage.
- [30:46]
D
But what you're not seeing, I guess, is that there's a lot of concentration camps in Texas. Some of them are exclusively children. You know that they've captured, like, 500 kids here in Texas. No, I have babies in these concentration camps. How is that making the United States safer? Are they really doing their jobs?
- [31:07]
B
And we also found the other ones that came over that nobody knew where those poor children were. And we did find some of those.
- [31:15]
D
Those.
- [31:16]
A
Okay, what. What does that have to do with what Haley's saying? You're. You deflect kind of constantly. Whenever Haley or I bring up a point, you always deflect to, like, what about Biden? Or what about this? What about that? My. Let me. Let me ask you this, Rich. Do you. I assume you get messages all the time from people who are thinking about leaving or they have a friend or whatever, people who are, like, teetering on the fence. Is there something that you've found to be, like, an effective tool for somebody who's at that state to get them over the fence?
- [31:52]
C
So we. We like to say that we provide a warm line for people who are having doubts. We.
- [32:00]
B
You.
- [32:01]
C
We have a nationwide billboard campaign where we have billboards all across the country right now. And the messaging of the billboards is very simple. It's having doubts. You're not alone. And anyone who reaches out to us, I personally follow up with each of them to see about if they want to take the. The. The next step. Because the initial step is the real. Is one of the hard parts. It's the first step of saying, I'm in maga. I feel alone. I'm afraid I don't support this anymore. We have more people than ever who are in MAGA reaching out to us, inquiring with us for help and for support. And I. And the reason that I think that that's the case is because I believe that there are more people than ever who are in MAGA who have quietly left. There are more than ever who are in MAGA who are privately having doubts. And we started our organization as a community for people to come to. Because when I left maga, I consider myself very fortunate. I had nowhere to go. I left maga and I was at a crossroads. I had alienated my friends. I left behind a second family. I walked away from something that had defined my identity, my being and my personhood. But I knew it was still the right thing to do to leave. But I had nowhere to go after leaving. That's when I started to eventually have an aha moment. And I thought, if, if we're going to ask people to leave, we need to give them an off ramp. We need to give them a new destination. And that's the logic behind how we formed our community. And it's. And I, and I think that everybody needs a community of some sort. It's not a want, it's a need. And I imagine. Mary Lou, and again, I don't want to speak for you, but I imagine that some of the communal aspects of maga, for understandable reasons, are probably appealing to you. They were to me. And I would, you know, a question that I would ask is, and if you don't want to answer this, that's fine. But I do want to ask is if. And it's a question I've asked other people who are in maga and I've asked them, do you think that I am your enemy? And a lot of times people in MAGA have not answered that question. And the reason I don't think they've answered it is because somewhere deep down they are having doubts about their support for the President. I've had some people in MAGA say, yes, I think you're the enemy. You're, you're a Democrat. You're, you know, Democrat, kkk. I've gotten that. But I, I don't think you as a MAGA person, I don't see you as my enemy. I see you as a fellow human being. And, and when I left maga, just as everybody else, who did we become, what I like to say, a born again human being. And when you leave maga, you reclaim your individuality, your agency and your empathy.
- [35:12]
B
No, I don't see you as an enemy. I see you having views probably right now different than me. I appreciate all your knowledge and what you have just told me, but I don't see you as an enemy at all. I see you having different views right now because I still support some of the things that, that President Trump does do and you don't. And that's your choice, and it's my choice, but you're not my enemy. You're a nice guy.
- [35:42]
A
But mom also. Well, let me ask you this, Rich. Are you, are you a Democrat now?
- [35:47]
C
So I'm a registered independent. And full, full disclosure, I did work on Kamo's campaign in 2024. I did outreach. I did media hits for the campaign down here in Florida. I did vote Democratic in November of 24. I will vote Democratic this year. But as someone who's an independent,
- [36:13]
A
I,
- [36:13]
C
I think that it's best for me to keep some arm's length distance from the two parties because of our organization being a non profit. Nothing wrong with being a registered Democrat, but it's just my choice that I, I feel that we call it in Florida npa, which is no party affiliated.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah.
- [36:32]
C
And, and you know, Mary Lou, to your point, it's not to say that I agree with the Democratic Party on, on everything. I think that the party has its problems and, and its flaws, but I don't believe any longer that the two parties are exactly the same. Which is what I thought at the time when I supported Trump in 2016.
- [36:50]
B
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:52]
C
That.
- [36:53]
A
The idea in my mind anyway, is like, I think for you, mom, if we can get you to a point where you denounce Trump, where you say, I am no longer maga, I don't think you'll ever be a Democrat or vote for any Democrat. But it's. There's a big difference. And I think this is like, at least for me, it's an important part of, like trying to get you to wake up a little bit is making you understand that you don't. We're not asking you to be a Democrat or a liberal or a progressive in any way. Trump is a different thing than the Republican Party. And so when you're saying, I still agree with a lot of what Trump does, there are a bunch of Republicans you can support who are kind of more like establishment politicians than that, probably have those same beliefs or, or would run on those same platforms. They just also aren't stealing billions of dollars from Americans through taxpayer money or, you know, Trump setting up all these different funds and stuff where he's just like taking our money.
- [37:50]
B
You and Haley. Whoops. Haley. You and Haley have always labeled me maga. I've always thought I am a strong Republican.
- [37:57]
D
You're wearing a hat that says Trump 2024. Okay.
- [38:03]
B
Make you MAGA.
- [38:04]
D
It fucking does.
- [38:06]
B
Yeah, I did buy the clone in the shoes. That's about it. No, I got Trumpy Bear, too. I do have Trumpy Bear.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah. And you're. That's, that's kind of. Sorry. Go ahead, Rich.
- [38:16]
C
I think that qualifies you as maga. Mary Lou. I, you know, if that's what it is.
- [38:20]
B
Okay.
- [38:21]
D
I want to say I disagree. I think mom would vote Democrat if You did not label the two people running and you just let them speak their piece and give their platform without having those two labels. I think mom would vote Democrat. I think that she doesn't because it's the label. I must be Republican. I've always been Republican. I think that's totally false. Mom has a lot of kind of like socialist ideals that she doesn't want to admit to, but I think that she would 100% vote Dem if there was not a fucking label attached to.
- [38:56]
A
Interesting. I don't know.
- [38:58]
C
And I think, you know, to that point, Haley and Mary Lou, I, I, I bet that we, all of us here together, have agreement. I bet on important issues. We want economic opportunity. We want good schools for our kids, good health care. Right. Want good quality health care. We want a safe and secure country. We might have some difference of opinion on how to reach those desired outcomes. But this is what, this is where MAGA media is really effective because it's lucrative to keep us divided, afraid and rageful. And I'm not saying that non MAGA media doesn't contribute to polarization and divisions. I'm not saying that. But what I came to also understand about being in MAGA is that my information silo was detrimental to my empathy because I saw empathy while in MAGA as a weakness, and I believe that it is now. I don't think that it is a weakness. And being in that information silo, I will tell you that any information that even remotely refuted the pervasively held mythologies and beliefs of the community, we shunned it. We kept it out. And I think MAGA media and influencers very deliberately seek to keep us divided and despite our polarization, keeps us distracted from the fact that we agree on important issues more than we disagree.
- [40:42]
B
And I do want to say this. There was a time when Bob and I did not talk to Haley and Chad. It wasn't as long as they say it was, but it was some months over politics. And I will say I'm sorry for that to both of you. Politics is never more important than your family and children.
- [41:04]
D
So even though that is a shift, because in the beginning when we started this, that is not how you felt, Correct? Yeah.
- [41:12]
A
And there's been some other shifts. I'm also curious, mom, just like how it's affecting you to hear from somebody like Rich who was probably deeper in the hole than you. I mean, he was working on Trump's campaign in one way or another. You know, you guys buy the Trumpy Bear and the clue and stuff. But, like, you've never actively tried to help Trump get elected beyond voting and donating money to him? What's that?
- [41:35]
B
I don't know. It kind of, it sounds strange to me because he was talking about, you know, like, you're, it was an addiction. Like, if you have an addiction and you need help in therapy, I don't consider that, for me, being, I guess you call me maga.
- [41:53]
D
You are, you're wearing the, you wear the hat every time.
- [41:57]
B
That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter.
- [42:00]
D
Yes, it does. And all you're watching is Newsmax, and he's my president and I'm a patriot. Like, no matter what he does, you're always an apologist. That makes you fucking maga.
- [42:10]
A
But I, I, I get what Mom's saying, and I actually agree with her. I don't think she's maybe as deep as Rich was like, Rich, you're saying it was your job? To some degree, at least during his, one of his campaigns.
- [42:20]
C
Like, my life and my obsession.
- [42:22]
A
Yeah. I don't think mom is like, is that way. I think she's made the decision. I'm maga and I'm going to support him and buy the stuff and whatever. And you watch Newsmax all the time, but it's not like your job necessarily. But what I, what I wanted to ask you, mom, is like, does it do anything to you to see somebody like Rich who was in this even deeper than you were by your own admission right now, but has now figured out that that was all a lie and he has changed his entire way of thinking about it? Does that do anything to you?
- [42:50]
B
Well, like I said, that's, that's his choice, his opinion. And I'm, if that's what he wanted to be happy, I'm glad he did that. I'm not sad. I'm not happy right now. I mean, I still, I still am going the path I'm going for now. Right.
- [43:12]
A
I'm not, I'm not asking you like, oh, does this change your mind? Or whatever. I'm just saying, like, how does it make you feel to hear somebody who was that deep into it has now come out of it, started an entire organization to help other people come out of it, and is getting emails and contacted by multitudes of people who are coming out of it. So there's, there's a movement happening here. That's what leaving MAGA is. It's not just Rich. It's not just one guy being like, I, I started watching CNN and now I'm no Longer maga. This is like multiple people, big chunks. Like some percentage of MAGA is leaving.
- [43:49]
B
I was watching the news. I'm not sure. It might have been Newsmax, with the fight at the White House and then the big attempt that there were like, six individuals that were going to come in with drones and do some really big damage. And how scary is that to think that there's so much hate on one side that they would do that to innocent people? And that's very scary to me.
- [44:18]
A
Right, so that's what Richard's talking about, the fear of that. But then if you look at it
- [44:22]
B
objectively, that was true. That wasn't fake news.
- [44:25]
A
Yes. Right. And Cash Patel now is in trouble. The rest of the FBI hates him because he leaked that on Twitter. And they were like, it's an active investigation, you idiot. You just blew that. Anyways, that's part of that fear that they put that out there. Cash Patel releases that information early when the FBI still has an active investigation, saying, like, we stopped these, but those are still out there. So be afraid of that. Meanwhile, you're saying, how bad is it that all these people want to do this terrible thing while Trump himself has ICE now arresting people in Minnesota who are simply protesting ice. I mean, we talked about this while it was happening. ICE is murdering U.S. citizens. So it's like Trump and his government are also doing horrible things, but you are fine with that.
- [45:11]
B
I didn't know about the Minnesota thing you're talking about.
- [45:14]
A
It's just happening today.
- [45:16]
B
Oh, okay. I think current.
- [45:19]
C
You know, Mary Lou, maybe it's worth asking yourself, just like I watched the last episode where we were. You guys were talking about the President and his sycophants in the Situation Room with the Epstein files, and that was something that you hadn't been aware of. You know, maybe it's worth asking yourself why you don't hear about these stories. And the reason is because the media that you're consuming is doing what I call lying by withholding.
- [45:55]
B
Okay.
- [45:56]
C
And they're not providing this information. You know, if. If the President trying to do damage control in the Situation Room was fake news, Fox News would be all over it and calling it fake news. But they stayed away from it, you know, just like other MAGA media did. And I, I think if you. If you went on A. A MAGA media fast for 30 days, I believe that you would see some of your view shift. I say that actually with a very high degree of confidence that that would happen.
- [46:32]
B
Maybe I should try that for two weeks, right? Two weeks.
- [46:35]
A
Do you think it's possible, though, because Dad's in the living room watching Newsmax 24 7, right?
- [46:40]
B
No, not. Not now. He watches a lot of sports. I maybe could do that. Maybe.
- [46:45]
A
I'd be curious. Like Haley said in the very beginning of this, when dad started, you know, having to go to the hospital and stuff, your. Your days were occupied by that, like, dealing with him and, you know, trying to get all your ducks in a row for Medicare and all that. You didn't even have time, really, to watch Newsmax or probably get on your MAGA Instagram feed. And we were back there. We shot that episode, a couple episodes, I think, in person at your house. And already we could see a shift in you just because you had been off of that for, like, a week maybe, and you were already, like, questioning everything Trump was doing, or you. At the very least, you were accepting the information I was presenting at face value as true.
- [47:28]
B
So are you saying I need to get, like, when I get on Instagram, I need to, like, some liberal pages? Liberal stuff comes up or what?
- [47:36]
D
Follow Hassan Piker?
- [47:38]
B
Yes, you know I do.
- [47:39]
D
Do you watch any of his content
- [47:43]
B
on Tiki Talkie? Sometimes, yes.
- [47:46]
D
Watch his content.
- [47:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. See what he has to say about stuff.
- [47:51]
B
I do like him. You know I like him.
- [47:53]
D
Right. So watch him. See what he says.
- [47:55]
B
I will.
- [47:56]
C
Yeah.
- [47:56]
A
You say you like him, but do you think he's just lying to you?
- [47:59]
B
Have they subpoenaed him? They did subpoena him. They didn't take him away yet, I don't think.
- [48:04]
A
Not yet.
- [48:04]
B
I don't. I don't want him locked up.
- [48:07]
A
But. But answer the question. Do you think that the things he's saying are lies?
- [48:13]
B
No. Some maybe yes, some maybe not. I don't trust him 100%.
- [48:21]
A
Okay, interesting. But you trust Trump and whatever Smokey Joe on Newsmax, you trust them 100%.
- [48:30]
B
Smokey jaw.
- [48:30]
D
Like.
- [48:31]
A
Like, at the. At the very least, in terms of media, like, you have to be aware of the fact that all of these, whether it's Hasanpiker or Newsmax, they are for profit. Whatever they're doing is to make money. And the way they make money is by getting more people to watch their stuff longer. That's it. It's like, how long is an eyeball on the screen with me on it?
- [48:51]
B
And it's true. I saw something like where Megyn Kelly, like, flipped because they gave her a whole bunch of money, so now she's anti Trump. You know, Is that stuff true?
- [49:02]
A
Well, I mean, she he personally insulted her at whatever that was the, the debate where he, he was like, she's bleeding out of her. You know what?
- [49:10]
B
Oh gosh.
- [49:11]
A
I think that probably sent her on the path of like this guy. Whether that was going to be public or not. Eventually it was, but I think at that moment she was probably like, I'm not down with this. I'm, I'm just saying everybody who makes any kind of news media is doing it for profit. And so they are incentivized to keep you watching, whatever that means. In a case of like Hassan Piker, he's independent, so he's not beholden to like a giant corporate greed machine who pays his checks. So he gets to kind of say whatever the he wants and he finds an audience that resonates with that or resonates with what he's saying and that's enough for him to maintain that audience, make his money, whatever. So I don't know, you know, if you want to see if you want to say what he's saying is true or not, it's kind of irrelevant. It's more just about he can do what he does without being hampered by a, a like giant network or studio who owns his media company saying, this is what you're going to say. Cnn, msnbc, Newsmax, Fox, all the big cable news networks, the people who are saying stuff to you are told what to say or, or in broad terms, at the very least, if not specifically, like talking points I'm sure you've seen or maybe you haven't, there are these videos that always get compiled every couple months when a new big like Republican talking point comes out where they will put in a giant grid every local news network that is right leaning and they're saying the exact same phrase in, in whatever capacity it may be. They're getting those talking points from the Republican Party.
- [50:40]
B
So what is my homework for two weeks? Not to get on Newsmax, not to get on my channels that I watch, or to get like on Instagram and just start doing liberal stuff, Republican stuff, everything, to see what comes into my feet. What's my homework?
- [51:01]
A
I would say do both of those things. Sorry, Rich. You're going to say something?
- [51:04]
C
I was going to say both. Exactly what I was going to say.
- [51:06]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [51:07]
A
And just see what happens. I watch Newsmax every day for you because I'm like, I want to see what these maniacs are saying and how they're delivering this information. And it's, it's like the thing about Newsmax that blows my mind is like not only are the anchors of all their shows just saying the wildest shit, like it's, it's so far beyond Fox, but even in the presentation of it, like the technical presentation of that channel, it is so low bar. Like there will always be typos and misspellings in the news crawl. The news crawl usually has about like five items that are just on repeat. You know, there's no, they don't update it in a 24 hour cycle. It's just like so poorly done. And I, you know, you're watching it and you're like, not only are they saying crazy, it's like, who's running this network? Fifth graders.
- [51:57]
B
Your opinion. But that's okay.
- [51:59]
A
Those are not my opinions. It's terror. Technically, it's terrible.
- [52:03]
B
Okay, I've got homework. I'll do it.
- [52:06]
A
Okay, Rich, as we are kind of winding down here, do you have any kind of like, I guess, final message for anybody out there who might have somebody that is MAGA in their life that might be on the fence or that they, they want to have better conversations with them or bring them into the fold? Is there like, kind of. I guess what I'm getting at is like, what is the moment that you, if you have identified this, that a MAGA person is like receptive to getting out of it?
- [52:38]
C
You know, we talk at our. We have support groups that we do every Tuesday night which are designed for friends and relatives of MAGA identified close ones. And something that we talk a lot about in these support groups is to encourage people to relieve themselves of the pressures of feeling like they can change another person. Because we believe that you can't change another person, that the change must come from within, from the individual. But what people who have MAGA friends and close ones can do, and they might have already done this myriad times to no success, but I'm asking them to do it one more time, which is to go to MAGA friends and relatives and say to them, if you ever have doubts, if you're confused, if you're questioning your belief system, you can turn to me as a friendly ear for counsel. And if people feel that they can turn to, if people in MAGA feel that they can turn to their friends and relatives, sans the fear of recrimination or ostracization or judgment or shaming or shunning, it makes it more likely that the person in MAGA will turn to their close friends or their loved ones. And that's why we talk at our support groups about non violent language and also how to better navigate these relationships. I don't believe that relationships with those in MAGA and their close ones are lost and are hopeless. I, I think the good person, deep down, who was, who was in maga, who may have become a hateful person, a rageful person addicted to it, that good person is still there. But it's, it has to be. The relationship has to move at the pace of the person in maga. So if those who are out there, who are hearing this, who've got the MAGA friends and relatives, extend, extend another olive branch, reach back out, ask them or, or make clear to them that if they ever start to question this, if there's one lie or one betrayal too many, if they reach a red line, they can turn to them for, for counsel and they can turn to them to have these conversations. And I think that those who do that out there with MAGA friends and relatives, many of them will pleasantly discover that their, that their MAGA friends and, and relatives are in fact starting to have doubts because I think more than ever are privately questioning their allegiance to Trump and the MAGA movement.
- [55:13]
A
I, I have one more question, actually. Trump is very clearly declining in health. He's getting older. I think soon we are probably going to be living in a post Trump world. And I mean that, that he's going to die, not just be out of politics, but that he will no longer be with us on this mortal earth. What do you think MAGA will be like post Trump?
- [55:38]
C
I think MAGA survives. And the reason I think that is because there's. There are two parties in our country right now, the Democratic Party and the MAGA party. When I was in maga, it was a fantasy of ours to kill off the GOP and transform it into a MAGA party. And whomever it is, who, who assumes the mantle of the MAGA titular leader, I don't know who that will be. I think MAGA might slightly weaken without Trump on the political scene, but I think MAGA remains and the opportunity for us will be that. When as if, in fact maga, though it might stay, it's going, I believe it will stay with us even though it might weaken. That's an opportunity for us to catch millions of people before they get subsumed into whatever the next iteration of right wing politics might be, whether it's America first or, you know, a tech bro, tech technocracy, something similar to that. I think that yes, MAGA will stay, but there are going to be lots of MAGA Americans who are going to be at a crossroads. We need to give them an outlet and an off ramp. And that's what I'm hoping that we can provide for them. Is that. Is that exit ramp out of maga?
- [56:55]
A
Wow. Yeah, I'm. I'm curious. We'll see. I think it will weaken substantially too. I personally don't think anybody currently in the Republican scene has the same juice that Trump does. And I don't know if they can hold MAGA together in the same way, but time will tell. Mom. Haley, any last questions for Rich?
- [57:14]
D
I don't know. It's a lot of to unpack. I feel like I have a thousand questions. I don't know, like this. Like, you mentioned losing a second family. So, like, you literally fucking lost your whole life to maga.
- [57:32]
C
Maga was my life and my obsession. Forget about taking a day off from maga. I never took an hour off from it. And I believed I was this patriotic soldier in this good versus evil political battle. You know, we as humans, we. We are enamored with stories. It's how we understand the world. And the story that MAGA presents is that there's good and that there's evil and that anyone who's not with MAGA is evil. And I came to reject and shun that.
- [58:04]
D
Did you grow up religious at all?
- [58:07]
C
I am Catholic. Not the most religious Catholic. My wife does not like this joke. I always say that I'm an excommunicated Catholic, but even in. Even when I was in maga, I wasn't that religious. So I didn't go through a religious deconstruction. But there are many in our community who did go through a religious deconstruction. There's one lady I'm thinking of, Stefania. Her entree into MAGA was through her Christian nationalist church. We have another lady, Jenny, who not only left maga, but left behind Mormonism. And if I could add Mary Lou, just a little bit more homework. I would really encourage you to take some time and read some of the testimonials at our website@weavingmaga.org of people who left Maga. I think you'll find, I think you'll see some of yourself in these stories, but I think you'll also find them very eye opening, enlightening and, and maybe even inspirational. So I would, you know, I would really ask that you maybe take some time and. And dig deep into those stories which you can get at our website.
- [59:14]
B
Okay, I'll do that.
- [59:16]
C
Thank you.
- [59:17]
A
Yeah, no, thank you, Rich, for coming on here and talking with us. This has been very Interesting. Everybody out there, please check out leavingmaga.org you can find them on Instagram, tick tock, everywhere, YouTube, everything. I do think what you're doing is like, it's a crucial thing that has to happen. There has to be, like, a kind of public acceptance that many people are leaving this many people are turning against Trump. And I feel like once that gets big enough, it becomes a little more socially acceptable for people to leave it behind, et cetera, et cetera, and it snowballs a little bit. But thank you again for joining us. And everybody go check out leavingmaga.org thanks, everybody.
- [59:56]
B
Thank you for your time.
- [59:58]
C
My pleasure.
- [59:59]
B
Hammer me down. Like, I thought you were going to hammer me down or something. You didn't. I appreciate it.
- [60:04]
A
And before we go, we do have to do our final thing. We do this on every show, despite our political differences. Haley. I mean, we don't have political differences, but Haley, I love you, Mom. I love you, dad, wherever you are, out in the living room watching Newsmax. I love you. And Rich, thank you for coming on our show. I love you.
- [60:20]
C
Thank you. Love you guys, too.
- [60:22]
B
Love you. Chad and Haley, love you. Thanks for coming on the show. It was fun.
- [60:26]
C
All right.
- [60:27]
D
Love you, Mom. Love you. Chad, Rich, nice to meet you. I don't hand it out. I don't just hand those out.
- [60:34]
A
You make people work.
- [60:35]
D
Very, very few people hear those words.
- [60:38]
C
It's got to be earned, Sacred.
- [60:40]
B
That's right.
- [60:41]
A
All right, thanks, everybody.