The Nerve with Maureen Callahan – August 22, 2025

Episode: Difficult Relationships: The Narcissist – Detecting the Behaviors and Traits and How to Navigate
Host: Maureen Callahan
Guest: Professor Sam Vaknin, Author of Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited

Overview

This episode of The Nerve dives deep into the nature of narcissism and its pervasive impact on relationships, families, and wider culture. Host Maureen Callahan is joined by leading psychology professor and preeminent narcissism expert, Sam Vaknin, who dissects the traits and behaviors of narcissists—from the classic “overt” personality to the insidious “covert/covid" narcissist. The conversation details how narcissists construct psychological fantasies, manipulate those around them, and the difficult, but crucial, process of detaching from such relationships. Vaknin shares practical advice on how to recognize, survive, and heal from narcissistic abuse, blending neuroscience, real-world anecdotes, and dark humor in a discussion that is incisive, alarming, and ultimately hopeful.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Narcissism?

• Narcissism as a Spectrum Trait
  • Everyone possesses some degree of narcissism. It can be healthy and foundational to self-esteem, ambition, and achievement.
  • "Narcissism is good for you, actually. But … it can go awry, it can become malignant or cancerous." — Sam (06:01)
• Pathological vs. Healthy Narcissism
  • When narcissism becomes excessive and rigid, it turns pathological and damaging to self and others.

2. Self-Awareness Among Narcissists (07:36–11:02)

• Self-awareness of Harmful Actions
  • Narcissists know what they're doing and are aware of the harm, but lack insight into their deeper motivations.
  • They construct narratives to justify their behavior—tough love, saving, or awakening others—so their actions make sense to themselves.
  • Therapy can sometimes modify narcissists’ behaviors, but it rarely changes their fundamental identity.

3. The “Fantastic Space” – How Narcissists Trap Others (11:02–14:44)

• Constructed Psychological Fantasy
  • Narcissists offer an alluring “fantastic space” where the partner is idealized, safe, perfect—but must surrender autonomy.
  • "The narcissist offers you a deal... I'm going to transport you into a Disneyland kind of a fantasy." — Sam (11:07)
  • The partner receives “four S's” in exchange for their independence: Sex, Services, (Narcissistic or Sadistic) Supply, and Stability/Safety.
• Infantilization and Dependence
  • Within the fantasy, partners are regressed to a child-like state—safe and cared for, but entirely dependent and controlled.

4. Cycle of Idealization, Devaluation, and Discard (14:44–18:31)

• Love Bombing to Devaluation
  • The initial idealization or “love bombing” phase is intoxicating but fleeting; it inevitably gives way to abrupt devaluation and discard.
  • Devaluation is not about the partner’s actions—it’s an internal, inevitable dynamic for the narcissist.

5. Victims’ Self-Delusion and Escape (18:31–21:13)

• Coping Narratives
  • Victims construct self-blaming or rationalizing stories to avoid the painful reality of abuse—often trapping them longer in the relationship.

6. Selfishness vs. Narcissism (21:13–25:02)

• Selfishness Misunderstood
  • Some selfishness (better reframed as “selffulness”) is healthy and boundary-setting; chronic self-sacrifice is pathological.
  • “Selffulness is healthy, whereas perhaps selfishness is frowned upon socially, albeit it's not pathological. And narcissism is pathological.” — Sam (24:27)

7. Reality Testing and Gaslighting (25:02–28:56)

• Loss of Reality Testing
  • Narcissists erode their partner's sense of reality, sometimes unintentionally—unlike psychopaths.
  • The partner gradually relies entirely on the narcissist as the arbiter of what’s real.

8. Isolation Tactics (26:34–28:56)

• Cutting Off Support Systems
  • Narcissists undermine friends, family, coworkers, and institutions, viewing them as “competing fantasies.”
  • Isolation weakens resistance and increases dependence.

9. Shared Fantasy (Folie à Deux) (30:19–31:29)

• Total Psychological Enmeshment
  • The narcissist authors the narrative, and the partner becomes an actor within it—often leading to mutual delusion.
  • “The shared fantasy, which is a term coined by Sander in 1989, was just another rendition of what used to be known as folie à deux...” — Sam (30:40)

10. Covert ("COVID") and Communal Narcissists (34:02–43:15)

• Types of Narcissists
  • The field now recognizes that narcissism exists on a spectrum.
    • Overt: Obvious, grandiose, arrogant, and visible.
    • Covert (“COVID”): Insidious, passive-aggressive, plays the victim or martyr, extremely difficult to identify.
    • Inverted narcissist: Gains supply through association with a dominant narcissist (“Frau Doctor” example).
    • The communal/pro-social narcissist: Performs ostentatious “good deeds” for public acclaim; often the most dangerous.
  • Covert narcissists avoid expressing anger, are pathologically self-deceiving, and often play the victim to manipulate and extract sympathy or admiration.

11. Danger and Identification (43:15–46:24)

• Why Covert Narcissists Are More Dangerous
  • Overt narcissists are easier to spot and avoid.
  • Covert narcissists are “under the radar,” less self-aware, and can have more pernicious effects.
  • “You don't see them coming...Covert narcissists don't trigger this [uncanny valley] in you.” — Sam (43:32)

12. Passive Aggression and Psychological Sabotage (46:24–48:22)

• Indirectly Destructive Behaviors
  • Covert narcissists are often passive aggressive, sabotaging others incrementally, rather than expressing open rage.

13. Contagion: How Narcissism Infects and Changes Victims (48:53–54:32)

• Narcissism Is Contagious
  • Prolonged exposure leads partners to develop narcissistic defenses, reduced empathy, increased aggression, and even to become narcissistic themselves.
  • “Narcissistic abuse is unlimited. The main goal...is to eliminate you as an independent agentic entity...” — Sam (50:29)

14. Escaping the Narcissist—“No Contact” (54:32–56:43)

• The Only True Solution
  • Complete "no contact" is key—including no indirect contact (not even via litigation or curiosity about social media).
  • “If you suck it up, you will be sucked in.” — Sam (55:04)
  • Any exposure—even brief—can re-trigger the fantasy and set back recovery.

15. Loss & “Archaeological Grief” (56:43–59:02)

• Profound, Multi-layered Grief
  • Leaving a narcissist brings deep grief—mourning not just the relationship, but parts of oneself, lost identity, and the fantasy itself.
  • Grief after leaving is legitimate but also can become its own captivating fantasy: “archaeological grief.”

16. Recovery Is Possible (59:02–62:30)

• Restoring the Self
  • Survivors inevitably lose sense of self and are left in a “state of obliviousness” (59:02).
  • But, with therapy and self-reflection, recovery is “very close to 100%.”
  • “Go for it.” — Sam (62:30)
  • “Having survived the narcissist in some way, the prognosis is excellent if you subject yourself to soul searching and therapy.” — Sam (61:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On healthy narcissism:
  “Narcissism is good for you, actually. But like everything else... it can become malignant.” — Sam (06:01)

• On self-delusion among victims:
  “The powers of self delusion are enormous. Especially if the fantasy caters to deep set, real psychological needs that have never been met before.” — Sam (18:53)

• On the tactics narcissists use:
  “The narcissist impairs your reality testing... within the fantasy, the narcissist tells you: everything you think you know about reality is wrong.” — Sam (25:02)

• On covert narcissists:
  “The pro social narcissist...pretends to be empathic, loving, charitable, compassionate, pretends to be a do gooder... and it’s all done ostentatiously, it’s all for public consumption.” — Sam (36:49)

• On isolation:
  “He removes from your life all certainty, all determinacy, all reality. And then he renders you dependent.” — Sam (28:57)

• On boundaries and selffulness:
  “Selffulness is healthy, whereas perhaps selfishness is frowned upon socially... and narcissism is pathological.” — Sam (24:27)

• On the need to leave:
  “If you suck it up, you will be sucked in. As simple as that.” — Sam (55:04)

• On the aftermath of leaving:
  “The biggest element in this grief is that you have lost yourself. You're no longer you.” — Sam (59:02) “The prognosis is excellent...your chances for healing and recovery verge on 100%.” — Sam (61:07)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:01] — Narcissism as a Healthy vs. Pathological Trait
• [11:02] — The “Fantastic Space” and How Narcissists Trap Others
• [14:44] — Idealization, Devaluation, and Discard Phases
• [18:53] — Victims’ Justifications for Narcissistic Behavior
• [25:02] — How Narcissists Impair Reality Testing (Gaslighting)
• [31:29] — The Shared Fantasy / “Folie à Deux”
• [34:02] — Overt vs. Covert (COVID) Narcissists and the Three Types
• [43:32] — Covert Narcissists: Danger in the Everyday
• [48:53] — Narcissism as Contagion: How Victims Are Changed
• [54:32] — No Contact: The Only Viable Strategy
• [56:43] — “Archaeological Grief”: The Pain of Leaving
• [61:07] — Recovery, Healing, and Hope

Tone and Style

• In keeping with The Nerve’s signature approach, the conversation is candid, witty, and at times darkly humorous, making psychological concepts accessible and compelling.
• Maureen’s blend of skepticism, empathy, and cultural observation grounds the discussion, while Sam’s academic rigor and metaphor-rich language make complex dynamics vivid and relatable.

For Further Reference

• Books:
  Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited by Sam Vaknin

• Resources:
  Sam Vaknin’s YouTube playlists: “Narcissistic Abuse, Healing and Recovery”

One-Sentence Takeaway

Narcissistic abuse is not just psychological manipulation—it’s an all-consuming mind virus, but with clarity, boundaries, and support, survivors can fully reclaim their identity and freedom.

End of Summary