
Maureen Callahan is joined by veteran journalist and former longtime friend of the Jackson family Stacy Brown to discuss the release of the biopic "Michael," and the exclusion of the truth about the pop icon and his dark upbringing. Maureen and Stacy dive into explosive details involving the abuse that Michael Jackson suffered at the hands of his monstrous father Joe Jackson, how Katherine Jackson turned the other cheek, and how she discouraged anyone within the Jackson family from going to law enforcement about the Joe Jackson's insidious treatment of Michael Jackson and his other kids. Maureen also gets into what really went on at Neverland ranch, how Paris Jackson has spoken out against her father, and several other dark truths that you won't see in the film. Then Maureen lightens things up a bit with some Troublemaker feedback, an update on Gayle King's page six mention regarding the one-year anniversary of her Blue Origin trip to space, and a video of RFK Jr. that once you ...
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Maureen Callahan
Com.
Rob
Look at me. It's Timmy T about to hit him with the zts.
Stacy Brown
Let's do a problem. Let us see the probability you see me on tv.
Rob
Hello and welcome to your Tuesday edition of the Nerve.
Maureen Callahan
I am your host Maureen Callahan. We have so much to get to today.
Rob
That cold open, by the way, that was one Timothy Shamalama. Ding dong. Another rap video from his high school years at New York's LaGuardia Academy for the Performing Arts, the Fame School. Okay, you think that's a crime against the culture? You think that music is a crime against the culture?
Maureen Callahan
We're doing it.
Rob
We asked you guys and you said
Maureen Callahan
yes, please do this. Michael Jackson, the biopic Michael released this past weekend.
Rob
A lot of mainstream media pushing this story, pushing how great the movie is. Oh, yeah, he was kind, kind of problematic in his private life, but God, what a musical genius. We're doing it first. We have got a guy I've known since way back at my days at
Maureen Callahan
the New York Post. And when I tell you that this guy is. Is the preeminent expert on the Jackson family, has known the Jackson family for decades, has written about them like, you're
Rob
going to love him. You're going to love him as much as I love him.
Maureen Callahan
And he is breaking news on this show. He is revealing scandal regarding this family that has really never been properly reported or discussed before. Thank you.
Rob
Thank you, mainstream media for turning the other way, for actively ignoring one of the biggest stories in celebrity culture in American pop culture of the past hundred years. I'm going to say since the time pop culture got invented. Thank you. Leave it to the Nerve.
Maureen Callahan
Leave it to the Nerve.
Rob
Then I'm going to culturally criminally prosecute
Maureen Callahan
the case against Michael Jackson because the
Rob
media has gone back to doing what
Maureen Callahan
it was doing back in the early 90s and onwards. Do we really know?
Rob
Yeah, he's weird and he doesn't seem to hang around other adults. And you know, he did marry Lisa Marie Presley and he did kiss her
Maureen Callahan
on the, on the MTV Movie Awards
Rob
and it did look weird. But he really seems to light up the most when he's around small boys. Could there be something wrong here? Then, then we have got troublemaker feedback. We have an update on another repeat offender. It's, it's another anniversary here at the Nerve for this repeat offender and for
Maureen Callahan
me, your humble troublemaker in chief.
Rob
And then we have.
Maureen Callahan
Oh my God, you guys. It is video footage.
Rob
And what I love about video and
Maureen Callahan
what I love about photos, even in
Rob
the world of AI is you really can't lie your way out of them. And this video is going in the books already. Again, it is a major contender for the Nerve 2026 awards.
Maureen Callahan
Are you ready?
Rob
Are you ready? Let's go.
Maureen Callahan
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Rob
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Maureen Callahan
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Rob
That is promo code maureenakelean.com joining us now, Stacy Brown who is. I first came to know Stacey when
Maureen Callahan
I was at the New York Post. Anytime there was a major story breaking about Michael Jackson or the Jackson family,
Rob
Stacy was the go to reporter and
Maureen Callahan
remains remains, I think the preeminent Jackson reporter in America. He is the senior global correspondent for
Rob
Black Press Media USA and was a close family friend of the Jackson family
Maureen Callahan
for over two decades.
Rob
He is also the co author of
Maureen Callahan
Michael Jackson the Man behind the Mask. Stacy, welcome to the Nerve.
Stacy Brown
Thanks for having me.
Rob
It's so nice to see you in like face to face. I've only ever spoken to you on the phone, right?
Stacy Brown
Exactly. So we just put at the Post, for the most part with folks at the Post.
Rob
So, yeah, I know they really need to get into the digital age and at least FaceTime with you. So, Stacey, tell us what you know
Maureen Callahan
about the Jackson family reaction to.
Rob
I mean, the movie outperformed expectations at the box office.
Maureen Callahan
There's surely going to be a sequel.
Rob
We know that par.
Maureen Callahan
We know that Paris Jackson, Michael's daughter,
Rob
has been public about disavowing the movie entirely, saying it's got inaccuracies. Over at the Daily Mail, we have
Maureen Callahan
solid sourcing that Paris believes the allegations against her father as a serial child molester are true.
Rob
Janet Jackson has stayed far away from
Maureen Callahan
this film as well, arguably the second most famous Jackson. What are you hearing?
Stacy Brown
From my understanding. And there you go. What you just told me, I did not know, believe it or not, that Paris might believe the allegations, but Janet is not a surprise. She and, and Randy have had a problem with the estate from day one and they were never going to back anything that this, this estate had their hands in. So that doesn't, that doesn't surprise me. But the family, they're enjoying themselves for the most part. And the reason they're enjoying themselves is not just because the movie is successful and not just because Jafar did an outstanding job, but because it puts the Jacksons back where they really want to be. It puts them back in the spotlight, it makes them a listers again. That's the real thing here. When you cut through the noise, that's
Rob
the bottom line again, on the back of Michael, you know, these. On the backs of Michael standing. That's how it always was. You know, talk to me a bit about what, you know, is Janet's problem with the estate, because remember when, after Jackson was acquitted in that criminal case
Maureen Callahan
in LA of child molestation, he and
Rob
Janet secretly cut that single Scream, secretly recorded that video, which was a huge mtv, like, world premiere. And it was basically Janet throwing her very considerable star power and the goodwill.
Maureen Callahan
I mean, America loved Janet Jackson behind her brother Michael.
Rob
Has her opinion on these allegations changed?
Maureen Callahan
Or is the fight with the estate solely over money?
Stacy Brown
It's only over money. Janet, everything that I know about her, she, she's. She's back to her brother with the allegations. This is about, about money, the. The idea the family wanted to control Michael's finances, his estate after he passed away, which is ludicrous in a lot of ways, because that's something Michael's wishes are being carried out. He picked who he wanted to pick. And I know that there were some questions about the will. But guess what? All three wills had the name John Brinko on them. So you, you can't, you know, you can argue, they can argue all they want. The bottom line is Michael never wanted his family in his business. And his will is a reflection of that. He never wanted them to take care. Now, he knew he had to know, at least in my view and everything I know about him and everything I know about them, he had to know that if, and in fact, of course we know he did pass away, that once he passed away, if he passed away at such an early age that his family would benefit from whatever money that anybody taking over, Branker McLean taking over, they would benefit. And they have. They benefited mightily. And this movie, like I said to you at the top, the biggest benefit, more than money, is being a listers
Maureen Callahan
again, being part of the cultural conversation without question.
Rob
Now, Stacey, by the way, just before we move on, those men that you mentioned, those were Michael's business advisors, slash attorneys.
Stacy Brown
Yes. John Branca, who's in the movie. Miles Teller plays John Branca. John McLean, longtime business partner. John McLean actually grew up with the Jacksons in Indiana. So he's, he has a long history with the family, particularly with Michael.
Rob
Now, I want to get to the
Maureen Callahan
sort of heart of this, you know, where you said this is such a salient point.
Rob
Michael wrote three wills.
Maureen Callahan
He knew he wasn't long for this world. The way he was living.
Rob
He probably wanted to die on some level. I think just my supposition, he wrote three wills.
Stacy Brown
I don't disagree.
Maureen Callahan
Okay.
Rob
I love that because I think that that's a part of the story that is just, it remains subterranean almost, you
Maureen Callahan
know, his wish to die.
Rob
He didn't want his family benefiting from this. Now, of course, they are a very whitewashed version of Michael's story. One of the things that they aren't
Maureen Callahan
telling, I think the truth about in this movie is the true abuse that Michael and his siblings. But my understanding is that Michael suffered the gravest abuse because Michael was the golden child.
Rob
Michael was the most talented.
Maureen Callahan
Michael was the prodigy, God given talent. And Joe brutalized him, the father brutalized him. And I see you nodding along, Lori.
Rob
Well, I just want to, I just
Maureen Callahan
want to put this to you, Stacey.
Rob
The story that has sort of been
Maureen Callahan
the open secret in the music industry lo these many years was that Joe actually sodomized Michael, that Joe raped Michael
Rob
and that this was, this is part
Maureen Callahan
of a sort of like a, it's
Rob
a, it would explain a lot. It would explain a lot.
Maureen Callahan
Tell me what you know about that.
Stacy Brown
So I've heard that rumor for a long time. I knew Joe. I won't say that I knew him so well, but I knew him enough. Right? And the one thing that I always said about Joe, we all knew that, how badly he beat Michael, and. And. And it wasn't just Michael. You know, Latoya made her claims that in. In 1993. I always found it, being around them and certainly in many, many conversations I had with Joe, that I always found it difficult to believe that he would sexually assault his son. One of his sons. Right. And I said this during the trial in 2005, when it. When the trial first started, I was on NBC News, and I was asked by Dan Abrams, you know, what do I think? And I said this. I said, if he's anything like his brothers, if he's anything like his. His. His dad, then, you know, he. He's good. He's not, you know, he. He didn't do it. And I said that because they are womanizers. The Jackson brothers are notorious womanizers. And they got it from Joseph, who cheated on Catherine with other women, even in his older age. Now, the. Did I hear about what you. What you just mentioned? Yeah, I heard that.
Rob
How many people did you hear from that?
Maureen Callahan
From Stacey? And when did you begin hearing it?
Stacy Brown
So I did a. A treatment for a book for Ribi
Rob
and Ribi, the sister whose real name is Maureen.
Stacy Brown
Right.
Rob
Maureen Jackson.
Maureen Callahan
Right. Okay.
Stacy Brown
And during the writing of that. And this is back, I want to say 1997, 1998. During the writing of that, one of the things that she said to me was that she was angry with latoya's characterization of what happened. And I said, okay, so what. You know what happened? She said, he. You know, latoya said he raped us. She says that's not true. She said that he. And she used the word molested. Molested them. And I said, there's really no difference, is there? If you're a child, there's really no difference.
Rob
So Ribi said to you she was
Maureen Callahan
upset with latoya's book. Latoya said Joe raped them, the children.
Rob
Both the male and female children.
Stacy Brown
Right.
Maureen Callahan
And.
Rob
And Ribi said that's not true, because it was just.
Maureen Callahan
Mall.
Stacy Brown
Let me say this. Ribey was talking about the females.
Martin Bashir
She.
Stacy Brown
She mentioned nothing about the. It was. So she had a girlfriend who lived near them, and they were about 12 years old at the time. So this goes to your point, and this is where I first began to hear this. The girlfriend, 12 years old, rabies, about 12 years old at the time, 12, 13. Says, you know, because she confided in the girlfriend that Joseph had done these things to her. She says, you know, I think he's doing it to your little brother as well.
Maureen Callahan
The girlfriend said this to ribi?
Stacy Brown
Yeah.
Maureen Callahan
At 12 or 13.
Stacy Brown
Perfect.
Rob
Did Reb tell you her response to that?
Stacy Brown
So her response was that she considered strongly and she was talked out of it by her mother going to the authorities. And, you know, she, she was really reticent. I think more so her, her husband wanted her to talk about those things. I think when, when the family had therapy, I think she did try and talk about those things. And I think in therapy it was discouraged by the rest of the family because they had a family therapy circa 2001, 2002, and they were, they just didn't want her talking about it. Joseph was present, Catherine was present.
Maureen Callahan
The brother, he was present for the therapy.
Stacy Brown
Okay, so the therapy goes back to your other point. I'm sorry, but I just want you to know it goes back to the other point about Michael and his life. And it was around that time where they did these interventions and, and one particular intervention in New York stood out. It was December of 2001. And he told his family, I'll be dead in a year anyway. He wanted them to leave him alone.
Rob
You know, Stacey, the movie, I believe,
Maureen Callahan
from what I've heard and read, I
Rob
don't want to go see it in a theater because I don't want to
Maureen Callahan
contribute financially in any way to this,
Rob
to what is a fairy tale really. Here it seems as though they maybe make a nod to Joe as a, as a demanding patriarch, as something of a stern disciplinarian, but nothing in terms
Maureen Callahan
of the real, real, real abuse that it's been reported and alleged over the years rumored that he subjected those children to.
Stacy Brown
So I think that. So I saw a screening last month and then I went with a group on opening night and, and, and it was jam packed. And Michael, of course, you know, his fans are so into him. It's that they're, they are more than just fans. I guess they're the epitome of the word fanatic. Right. The cursing of Joe Jackson in that theater was so palpable, it was almost really Joe. And so he got. Yes, and so, so the character, you know, he picked up the belt and he was, he, he was cursed. I mean, they wasn't booing him, they were cursing him. It was the f Bomb. And you know, you sob, you're this, you're that. I mean, this, this was brutal. If any, if the other theaters where people may have seen this movie was anything like that. My goodness, what you're saying, it all meshes with what these fans were feeling and so they're really hearing it. I don't know, I, I don't, I, I don't totally agree that it's whitewashed. I think they went into just enough detail without again, gory, you know, because,
Rob
you know, though, Stacy, I would disagree
Maureen Callahan
with you because I think if the public knew the whole story, you know, they often say about pedophiles is that.
Rob
And, and Michael Jackson was acquitted. But, but you know, those of us who, who believe he did it, believe he did it with good reason, I think, is that they were highly sexualized and or abused at a very young age.
Maureen Callahan
That abuse often comes from someone very close to them.
Rob
I think if it was known if
Maureen Callahan
what a monster Joe Jackson really was,
Rob
I mean, they can't make that movie and do that box office if they're writing a movie about the patriarch of a family who was so hell bent on making his children world famous that
Maureen Callahan
he was abusing them to the extent,
Rob
you know, I mean, the sexual abuse probably would have happened either way, but. And then you have a matriarch who's saying, I'm not only looking the other way, but I've got a daughter is
Maureen Callahan
really the eldest daughter, is she not?
Stacy Brown
That's correct, yes.
Rob
So I've got it. My eldest daughter is coming to me and saying, I think we should go to the authorities. I think dad is doing this to the boys. And she says, no, you know, this
Maureen Callahan
is not a feel good Americana story anymore, Stacy.
Stacy Brown
And I think this is perhaps why they made it about the music. There's going to be this argument that, and you're well read in this, that listen, this is supposed to be a story about this man's life and we are leaving out large chunks and perhaps very important chunks. But I think that their mission was to, to make a movie that the fans and the fans only, that they cared about. They, I don't think they cared at all about the critics. I don't think they cared at all about the naysayers. I think this was about the fans and the fans only.
Rob
Well, I also think it's about Reach out now that Michael has been dead for so long. They, they got Leaving Neverland, the documentary, the two part documentary that aired on HBO in which Wade Robson and James Safechuck detailed their allegations against, against Michael for abusing them. They got that yanked off of the streaming service. And I think that this whole thing, it's, it's, it's to your point, it's not just about the money. And you can't make a movie about the music with the music, without the estate. Right. So we see how like the, the whole circle goes. It's about recasting Michael's legacy like Elvis. Michael was broke when he died. After he died, the estate became worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a moneymaker. Now we're back in the cultural conversation. We are rewriting history. And it's to the detriment of everybody, I think even those of us who loved Michael Jackson's music. I loved off the Wall. I loved Thriller. You know, do I want to believe this is true? No. Do I have no choice? I feel like I have no choice.
Stacy Brown
Again, people talk about a potential part two tackling this. I, I just can't see how they would be able to tackle this in the way that they would, you know, want to leave a good taste in everybody's mouth. Because there's no way to, to do it. Even if you are in the camp that says that he is innocent, you. You just can't. I don't see. I think maybe you can see it somebody else. Because I can't see them doing a movie that's going to endear Michael again to, you know, to the masses without. I mean, that's going to be a problem. It's too problematic. And I think that's what they encountered here. And they may not have made much of an effort. I'm not saying they made a big effort, I don't know, to put those things in there. But based on what we saw in this movie, you know, this was intended strictly to be as non controversial as possible.
Rob
Yes. I think the hagiographic really.
Maureen Callahan
Because I think it remains controversial for those of us who will keep banging the drum.
Rob
I think it's. I think if you do believe that
Maureen Callahan
the many boys who have come forward as young men or who. Or Jordan Chandler who came forward as a very, I think a teenager and
Rob
said, this happened to me, you know,
Maureen Callahan
I think a film like that and
Rob
a ratification of this is, is.
Maureen Callahan
It's a moral injury. It's a grave moral injury to them and to the culture and our understanding
Rob
of what childhood sexual abuse is.
Maureen Callahan
And I couldn't thank you more for coming on, Stacy. I mean, you really are, you are the guy, you are the man when
Rob
it comes To a Jackson, like, I would call you like a Jacksonian historian, you know.
Stacy Brown
Wow, you are, you know, listen, you, you are well versed in so much. I, I, I, I look at the Nerve and I, I check you out. I know what you did at the Post, you know, some of the things you did at the Post, but what you're doing here. Listen, you're, you're the, you're the historian. So.
Rob
Stacy, you're too kind. Thank you so much for coming on the Nerf and we certainly hope you will come back.
Maureen Callahan
This is obviously going to develop only further.
Stacy Brown
Absolutely.
Rob
Thanks, Stacy. Have a good one.
Stacy Brown
Thank you. All right, take care.
Maureen Callahan
You too.
Rob
Thank God.
Maureen Callahan
For journalists like Stacy Brown, it's not easy to say what is considered the unsayable. True though it may be. True though it may be.
Rob
And because every other media outlet is
Maureen Callahan
glossing over this, just gloss, you know,
Rob
the New York Times, I will say just a book note in case you want to read it. I did a column over at the Daily Mail addressing this last week, but I mean, today on the Nerve.
Maureen Callahan
We are going in deep with our multimedia prosecution.
Rob
The New York Times has run story after story after story about this movie. And yes, Michael's a little problematic, but you can't deny the talent. They ran an essay published on April
Maureen Callahan
25, again, one of many, many, many
Rob
glowing pieces called why I Still Love
Maureen Callahan
Michael Jackson, the author. I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly, ma'. Am. Nikisa Mumbi Moody, a woman. I find this striking. I find this striking because most women would kill any adult who put their hands on their child in such a manner.
Rob
Okay, here's a little bit from her op ed.
Maureen Callahan
She went to a screening inside the theater and I'm quoting.
Rob
There was exhilaration as the movie began, the audience cheering for every dance step and high pitched whoop in the film. It felt more than a celebration, it felt liberating. It was also a scene I could not have imagined happening two decades earlier. You don't say, Jackson, this is, this is where you get, you can tell this is bad writing. This graph is so clunky and it's
Maureen Callahan
just jackknifed in there.
Rob
And you can tell this is just my supposition. Her editor made a note and said,
Maureen Callahan
hey, we have to reference this trial somewhere.
Rob
We have to legally, like, for narrative purposes because it's so clunky and just laden down with, like, facts. And you can tell she, like, just
Maureen Callahan
jackknifed it in on deadline. Again, just my supposition. She Continues.
Rob
Jackson's career had bottomed out. Oh, my God, what a cliche. And what a poor cliche at that. Bottomed out? He's accused of raping children. Boys. Where do you think he was raping them? Bottomed out. After his 2005 trial for child molestation and other charges, he was found not guilty. But the sensationalized spectre of the accusations. That's some editorializing right there. She doesn't think he's guilty, I can tell you that much.
Maureen Callahan
Just my opinion.
Rob
Sensationalized spectre.
Maureen Callahan
You tell me.
Rob
You know, the media did everything they could to avoid this story. Fuck off. Of the accusation. Stuck. My experience that night at the premiere solidified for me that maybe it was
Maureen Callahan
okay to be an out and proud Jackson fan again. Why can't it be both? Why can't you be like, you know what? I love the guy's music. It was good. Later, Michael Jackson was terrible, terrible.
Rob
You know, when it was good, I loved it also. I know the guy did it.
Maureen Callahan
He's, you know, he's guilty.
Rob
He did it.
Maureen Callahan
He abused children again. He was found not. He was acquitted. But, you know, acquitted isn't innocent legally. There's a reason for that.
Rob
New York Times magazine this weekend, Michael Jackson's. Oh, I have it right here, actually,
Maureen Callahan
I pulled it out when I saw it this weekend because I. I couldn't believe it.
Rob
Here it is. It's teased on the COVID Michael, this is the art. Look at the art.
Maureen Callahan
The art tells you everything. The art.
Rob
They.
Maureen Callahan
They're using iconographic art. They've removed. They've literally removed the human being from it. They've removed the problematic human being. This is the illustrative art they've chosen.
Rob
New York Times magazine this weekend, Michael Jackson's makeover movie. Now, the reporter, the author of this
Maureen Callahan
piece, Mark Benelli, I know that name.
Rob
He's been around for a while.
Maureen Callahan
He writes that he obtained the original script in here.
Rob
I noted it where he wrote it.
Maureen Callahan
He obtained the original script, which Benelli writes, quote, went to great lengths to
Rob
exonerate Jackson, portraying him as the victim of a shakedown by the family of
Maureen Callahan
the first child to come forward, Jordan Chandler. That was the. That was the narrative the Jackson family was pushing for years. Michael's the. Michael's the victim. This. This globally famous wealthy man who is
Rob
surrounded by little children.
Maureen Callahan
By his own choice, only boys, never girls. He's the victim. He's the victim here.
Rob
New York Times headline on Monday, April 27, Michael fans danced in the aisles.
Maureen Callahan
Critics be damned.
Rob
Look at that headline, look at how vague it is.
Maureen Callahan
Critics be damned.
Rob
I call us truth tellers.
Maureen Callahan
No one, and I mean no one is talking about the trial facing the Michael Jackson estate this fall.
Rob
I hope they're living it up now on the back end of their Baffo box office opening weekend, nearly 100 million domestically, 200 globally. They're facing a trial this fall. Wade Robson, who got famous later in life and good for him, he worked as the choreographer for Brittany and Justin
Maureen Callahan
Timberlake at the heights of their careers. Wade and James Safechuck are suing the estate alleging grooming and longtime sexual abuse. Both men were in the 2019 HBO documentary Leaving Neverland, Neverland, Excuse me, which we just discussed with Stacy.
Rob
The estate successfully got that pulled from
Maureen Callahan
HBO streaming arm a legality, a deal that they made with Jordy Chandler, with whom Michael settled for a reported 23 to 25 million dollars.
Rob
Before we get into the nerve has recovered of the documentary that the estate has tried to snatch back from the
Maureen Callahan
culture, let's revisit this. Living with Michael Jackson. The Martin Bashir interview aired in 2003. Now I'm going to warn you guys again, a lot of this is graphic,
Rob
a lot of graphic descriptions, a lot
Maureen Callahan
of very uncomfortable things and body language to witness. But we have to do it. We have to do it. If what these boys survived means anything, we have to do it. Michael is sitting on a couch holding hands with 13 year old Gavin Arvizo, who has his head resting on Michael's shoulder. Michael is asked by Bashir if he thinks it's weird to have little kids sleeping in his bedroom. Here we go.
Martin Bashir
When people hear that children from other families have come and they've stayed in your house, they've stayed in your bedroom. Well, very few, but you know, some have and they say, is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man to be doing that? How do you respond to that?
Wade Robson
I feel sorry for them because that's judging someone who wants to really help people. Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone.
Martin Bashir
You really think that?
Wade Robson
Yeah, of course. You're taking the position that you use every single night that you go into you sleep and you're sharing it with another, you say, you can have my bed if you want, sleep in it, I'll sleep on the floor. It's yours. Always give the best to the company. You know, like to him. I said, because he was going to sleep on the floor. I said, no, you sleep in the bed. I'LL sleep on the floor.
Martin Bashir
But haven't you got a spare room or a spare house here where he could have stayed?
Wade Robson
Yeah, but no. Yes. We have guest units, but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me.
Maureen Callahan
He's lying. You can tell.
Rob
No. Yes. No.
Maureen Callahan
Michael Jackson doesn't have guest rooms. He doesn't have guest homes. Arvizo later accused Michael Jackson of abusing him. We will see his face again. Surviving Michael Jackson Leaving Neverland 2 premiered on YouTube on March 18, 2025, and in this sequel are parts of the original documentary. The Jackson estate, as discussed, has somewhat successfully disappeared. That documentary. But you know, the Internet is forever. We all know this. Here's Wade. He was one of the kindest, most loving, caring people I knew. And he also sexually abused me for seven years.
Adrian McManus
I met him on, on the set of the Pepsi commercial. That's James the movie coming out. The scope of what happened was like, you know, the thing I was most afraid of. Michael always said, you know, your life would be over if people knew.
Maureen Callahan
Both of those men sound extremely believable to me. Wade says he was one of the most loving people I ever knew. And he also abused me. And that's the mind fuck. That's how these abusers work. To this day. He can look back at him as a little kid and still be like, I loved him. And, and he. I know he loved me. And then James says, the thing that these abusers often do, if people knew, your life will be over. Your life will be over.
Rob
Not Michael's, Michael's life would have been over. And as discussed with Stacy, I do
Maureen Callahan
think he wanted to die. I think he was committing a very slow form of suicide. I think he knew. He knew that one day this would come for him posthumously, would be better than Michael on this earth. He dodged a bullet with that trial in 2005. But, you know, this is a guy
Rob
who saw the way the culture was
Maureen Callahan
going to go long before anybody else. You don't make an off the wall and then go on to make a thriller. If you don't have an internal antenna for what people want, what their appetites are, stuff they don't even know they want yet. Let's go to the Today show last
Rob
week, Craig Melvin Craiggers is back from vacay.
Maureen Callahan
So he's got Colman Domingo on his sofa now.
Rob
Coleman Domingo is playing Joe Jackson.
Maureen Callahan
Joe Jack, as we just discussed with Stacy, who's a monster.
Rob
A monster who?
Maureen Callahan
Everyone in the entertainment, listen, if I knew this like a decade ago, 15 years ago, people in the entertainment industry know that Joe Jackson was raping his kids, the boys and the girls.
Rob
But Craig's going to ask a very, very soft, pedaled question to Coleman about the decision to leave out the child
Maureen Callahan
abuse that the Jackson children suffered. Michael suffered the most because he was the most talented. So Joe had to al. He had to make sure his golden child performed and his golden child didn't get any ideas and stayed in line under Joe's control.
Rob
But what Craig is clearly, clearly referencing
Maureen Callahan
is like the beatings, the physical abuse,
Rob
and I'm putting beatings in quotes because it's like it's so far beyond getting punched or whipped, which is awful. It's awful. It's monstrous behavior. It is an entirely different thing when a father is raping his sons and people know and they're doing nothing because
Maureen Callahan
these kids are cash cows.
Rob
You want to know how it is Michael Jackson wound up carving his face and bleaching his skin? And how he hated himself so much despite his enormous once in a generation talent. Look no further. But here's what Craig and Coleman talk about.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go.
Craig Melvin
The film does stop in 1988.
Coleman Domingo
Yes.
Craig Melvin
Several years before the first child molestation allegations were made. And you know, we, we live in a, an environment now where we take survivors of sexual abuse. We take their stories very seriously. How do you reconcile your performance with, with that? I think the film, the film takes place, you know, from the 60s to 1988, so it does not go into the first allegations in like 2005. So basically we, we center it on the makings of Michael. So it's an intimate portrait of who Michael is.
Maureen Callahan
Intimate portrait. Boy, everybody got their talking points from the studio, from the network.
Rob
Everybody's very invested in retelling this story. And you know, Coleman sits there and he says, you know, this is all before the child molestation allegations. Coleman, we're not talking about that. We're. You want to talk about the making of Michael?
Maureen Callahan
Get real. Get real.
Rob
Let's look at who Michael is according
Maureen Callahan
to James Safechuck in the Leaving Neverland sequel. Very graphic. I'm going to warn you, if you have children anywhere around, you do not want them hearing this. You don't. It's bad, but we have to hear it. We have to. Here we go.
Adrian McManus
He would want me to suck on
Maureen Callahan
his nipples and then he would finish himself.
Adrian McManus
I was sleeping and I woke up and Michael said that he had performed
Maureen Callahan
oral sex on me while I was sleeping. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, if we're truly in this post. Me too. Era where we're supposed to believe all women. You name me a grown man
James Manley
who
Maureen Callahan
would talk about that in detail publicly unless they truly felt they had to. I just don't think there's any amount of money that would be worth it. Wade Robson is going to talk about what he alleges Michael Jackson did to him as a little boy. And then after Wade, you're going to hear James Manley, who is the nominative determinism. Right. James Manley, who is the lawyer for both Wade and James explaining, you know, always the.
Rob
The pushback was like, well, how could this have gone on for so long?
Maureen Callahan
There's no way this could be true.
Rob
Somebody would have seen something.
Maureen Callahan
Surely somebody would have said something, you
Rob
know, but we need James to push
Maureen Callahan
back on that stuff. Here we go. I guess it sort of became a routine masturbating. The oral sex seven.
James Manley
It's two little boys and I believe many other children who were savaged by a pedophile. But worse, there was a massive group of people and money behind Mr. Jackson who allowed this to occur.
Rob
Exactly right.
Maureen Callahan
And there is a massive amount of people and corporations, a movie studio, Lionsgate, who have a ton invested in making sure that Michael Jackson goes back to being your friendly neighborhood spider man so they can make even more money.
Rob
And as Stacy said, so the Jacksons
Maureen Callahan
can re enter the culture as as important people as prominent, which is never going to happen.
Rob
Aside from Janet.
Maureen Callahan
Jafar Jackson is obviously a star, but he had to do it by playing his uncle. You know what I mean? The culture really has moved on now. That said, let's look at the View. The View, which for far too long,
Rob
as I said, they're like a racehorse
Maureen Callahan
we kept in the stable. And like we wouldn't let the nerve
Rob
fully go with the View because we had our eyes over here at the Today show. View, you're coming in for it. We're beginning. We're beginning spring. It's new beginnings. It's time for the View to get its daily walloping over at the Nerf.
Maureen Callahan
Or at least weekly. You know, I wouldn't subject you guys to like daily. That would be terrible.
Rob
Okay, here is Whoopi Goldberg, who is the moderator. Okay, so she's the big cheese Whoopi of It's not rape. Rape. Go see an earlier nerve.
Maureen Callahan
Her defense of Roman polanski raping a 13 year old girl. 12 year old girl.
Rob
Disgusting. Whoopi. And America's preeminent race hustler. In this corner, Sunny Hostin now, when you hear Sunny talk about this in
Maureen Callahan
her very serious former federal prosecutor voice, where she just maintains even modulation because we're removing all emotion from this, you tell me, if this had been a white male pop star with this amount of money and this amount of fame, abusing small black boys sexually for decades
Rob
while everybody else looked the entire way, would we have any quarter for excusing this, let alone propping up this movie? No, no, but let's listen to Sonny and let's listen to Whoopi, like, set it up.
Maureen Callahan
It's like, is this something we should be worried about? Here we go.
Sunny Hostin
Are you planning to see it? I mean, it says, you know, do you think. Will people think it's a glaring omission? Not if they know that it's not a documentary. And it's also covering the beginnings. Well, I think it's, you know, I think what is important to know about the film is that the director, Antoine Fuqua, did in his first draft, did in his first draft include the molestation allegations, the trial which he was found not guilty of, and some of the accusers that came out after his death. But because of this legal settlement with one of the accusers, he had to cut those parts and reshot $15 million worth of film.
Rob
Not the point, Sunny. Not the point.
Angie Hicks (repeat)
You know what?
Rob
You know, you know what I'm saying when I say, like, everybody's got their talking points.
Maureen Callahan
She's a former federal prosecutor. She should be outraged. Should be outraged.
Rob
60 Minutes Australia what the Maid Saw
Maureen Callahan
first aired in 2019. We're going to hear from a woman named Adrian. Excuse me, McManus, who worked as Michael Jackson's maid from 1990 to 1994. The first soundbite we're going to hear is her horror upon realizing that Michael knew that she knew. She hadn't said a word, but that she knew what he was doing with all those little boys at the Neverland Ranch. Here we go.
Adrian McManus
I got a call from him. He called me on Mother's Day. It was a Sunday morning at my home. He said, I want to ask you something. And I said, yeah, okay. And I kid you not. He asked me about eight times, what do you know? And I said, Mr. Jackson, I don't know what you want me to tell you. What do you know, Adrienne?
Coleman Domingo
That was the question. What do you know?
Adrian McManus
What do you know? I was starting to get really, really frightened.
Maureen Callahan
I believe her. There are a couple of reasons why. Number one, Michael Jackson's real voice in real life, it Wasn't this high pitched. It was very deep. He was a scary guy. He was a scary guy who could bully. And when he's bullying her, what do you know? What do you know? What do you know? And she says, I don't know what you want me to tell you, Mr. Jackson? And she says, she got SC.
Rob
This is why nobody ever said a peep in.
Maureen Callahan
In Diddy's world, you know, people always say, why didn't, like, a hairdresser come forward or like a maid or someone?
Rob
Those are the last people who are going to do it. They don't have nearly the money to protect themselves from thugs like that. They know. They know what goes on at that level in those worlds when there's that much money at stake, when that many people are relying on the cash cow. Back to the View. Alyssa is torn. She's torn, you guys.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go.
Alyssa
I struggled with that with the Broadway show too, which is excellent. And if you love Michael Jackson's music, like he's unrivaled as a pop icon, you want to enjoy those songs. And I wrestle with it because I believe the allegations, I believe the people who came forward. But I think the fact that it's stopping before that you're talking about what made him him, the impact he had on culture, I think that works. It would bother me far more if it came up to modern times and just pretended that didn't happen.
Rob
Oh, okay. So we're just. We're just going to. We can just slice that out of the discussion because the movie ends at a certain date. So let's just slice that out. Because a mind like Alyssa's can't hold
Maureen Callahan
two competing thoughts at the same time,
Rob
which is the very definition of intelligence. You can hold two competing thoughts in
Maureen Callahan
your brain at the same time.
Rob
And by the way, that is also a lie. Alyssa. This mov isn't about what really made
Maureen Callahan
Michael Jackson Michael Jackson. No.
Rob
To do that, you'd have to acknowledge
Maureen Callahan
the abuse that Joe Jackson put those children through.
Rob
It's incredible that any one of them survived it. It truly is. And I'm not in any way exonerating
Maureen Callahan
Michael Jackson from what I am sure he did. Just my opinion.
Rob
I absolutely believe it.
Maureen Callahan
We're going to get into it again on another nerve. We don't have nearly enough time.
Rob
Neverland Ranch. You know, he's Peter Pan. Foreign.
Maureen Callahan
Adrian from Australia's 60 Minutes. This is accompanied by home video.
Sunny Hostin
Her.
Maureen Callahan
Her recounting of this is accompanied by home video of Michael with little boys at his house. Again, this is very graphic, but it's necessary. Here we go.
Adrian McManus
I noticed that there were a lot of little boys, that's all that would hang around there. You wouldn't see like little girls. And I knew the little boys were there. When they would arrive, they would put their clothes in the suitcase. In a suitcase in his room. I started realizing, thinking, wondering when he was taking baths with him. They were sleeping in his bed.
Coleman Domingo
But there's sleeping and there's sleeping. Yeah, you're talking about the worst kind of sleeping with children.
Adrian McManus
Yes, I know the truth. I was there. And when I would go in the next day, there were little boys underwears either on the floor with Michaels or they were in the Jacuzzi.
Coleman Domingo
So you were suspicious as soon as you saw that?
Adrian McManus
Yeah, I got suspended. Suspicious. And then I would find underwears also in his bed. I did find underwears that were minch briefs in the walk in closet. And they were, and I don't like to say this, they were like crunchy hard with yellow stains all over.
Maureen Callahan
If you're listening to this and not watching it, I would encourage you to go watch that portion of Adrian's interview, which is accompanied by footage from Michael Jackson's bedroom. This I would bet, maybe came from the lapd, who raided that house eventually and found a stash of child pornography. But what's telling about the. The home movie footage of Michael's estate is the Jacuzzi in which Adrian says he was abusing young boys has a bird of prey atop its fountain. And on Michael's bed, which is a small bed for a big guy. Michael Jackson was a big guy. You know, he tried to make himself small, to seem harmless, but like physically he was imposing. And on that, on Michael Jackson's bed, a middle aged man, are stuffed animals like Disney characters, their stuffed pillows multiple with the face of Peter Pan.
Rob
Here's the View's useless. Sarah Haynes. It's called the View because you're supposed to have a view, you're supposed to be opinionated. But Sarah always sees both sides. Both sides, even when it comes to serial child predation and sexual abuse, we see both sides.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go.
Alyssa
I think people seek like moral absolutes in life and it's very hard to reconcile that this man was a genius, possibly a prodigy, but also there were serious sexual allegations that I watched Leaving Neverland. And everyone has to come to terms with their own feelings on that because he wasn't convicted in court. I believe both things can exist.
Rob
Okay, listen, can you get, can you guys just get someone Anyone who like actually cracks a book or reads or has some kind of deep knowledge of the culture and history. For example, over the weekend I was reading a book review in the Wall Street Journal of a biography of Samuel Pepys, the famous British diarist. And it turns out that that guy was a sexual menace for the ages, okay? It's been going on since the dawn of human history. Michael Jackson isn't some rarefied example of this shit. Can we all just grow the fuck up? Here's the maid talking about underwear and Vaseline. Sarah.
Adrian McManus
I didn't know who they belonged to because the little boys started wearing Michael's briefs and they would leave their underwears inside his drawer.
Coleman Domingo
The more Adrian saw, the more convinced she was that Michael Jackson was a predator. A feeling she says was shared by other staff at Neverland.
Adrian McManus
There was a lot of Vaseline at Neverland. Sometimes it was found in the golf carts when Mr. Jackson would take off with the boys.
Coleman Domingo
Vaseline?
Adrian McManus
Yeah, Vaseline. And there was a lot of Vaseline in Michael's bedroom. It was actually all over the ranch.
Coleman Domingo
Is there possibly an innocent explanation for that?
Adrian McManus
I don't think so.
Maureen Callahan
Speaking for us all. Speaking for us all.
Rob
And you know, this story is viable and relevant because Sean Combs is going
Maureen Callahan
to get out soon.
Rob
And you know the Vaseline Flash forward
Maureen Callahan
circa now Baby oil. The raid on Neverland Ranch, which I like, it kills me to even call it that. That raid followed allegations brought by a 12 year old cancer patient, a boy who said that Michael Jackson fed him booze and pills. This kid was probably on chemo, booze and pills at Neverland Ranch. We're going to hear from Detective Ruby Wolf, who was part of the team of law enforcement raiding Michael Jackson's ranch and bedroom. Here she is in finding Neverland. And we are actually going to see more of Michael's bedroom, by the way, there's video of law enforcement having to drill the door to his bedroom open because clearly not a single staffer in that house, not a single individual aside from Michael Jackson had a key to that bedroom, which not for nothing is a fire hazard. Anyway, here is Ruby.
Detective Ruby Wolf
We asked the housekeeper, where's the bedroom? That's when we were told no one was permitted into his bedroom and nobody had a key for his bedroom.
Maureen Callahan
The drilling,
Detective Ruby Wolf
We were able to make entry and when we walked in, it was a mess. Papers, clothes covering the whole floor. I found some pepperoni sausages that were just thrown in there. I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is filthy. Drawers weren't closed. Right. You know, I'm sure everyone has a junk drawer. There were a lot of junk drawers. If you would just stuff thrown all over. In the area where the grand piano was, that's where I located a briefcase, opened it up and there were some magazines with the pornographic materials in them. So that was a significant item because it supported what Gavin said.
Cheryl Hines
You know, in that moment.
Detective Ruby Wolf
Your whole point of the investigation is to seek the truth. When you talk about an innocent child who's been taken advantage of, that's going to stir anger in anyone. And. And. I think that Gavin was very courageous to be able to come forward and say what happened.
Maureen Callahan
She's alluding to child porn because she says that all supported what Gavin was saying. And we see Gavin here. That's the same Gavin we met in the Martin Bashir interview, who like many victims, child victims, is defending his abuser, Latoya Jackson. In the book that Stacy and I were referencing growing up in the Jackson family, page 83, quote, he, meaning Michael, doesn't keep just papers and books lying around. Michael saves everything, and I do mean everything. Sweetly sentimental. He keeps family members photographs and mementos such as all of my report cards and his young nieces and nephews first shoes, first outfits, even their first soiled diapers. Among his very personal souvenirs is his own nose cartilage extracted during surgery. This is one of the most disturbed minds I've ever read about, and I've read a lot. I've written about a lot of disturbed minds.
Rob
His own daughter thinks he's guilty.
Maureen Callahan
Paris Jackson taking to Instagram very recently to disown this film. Here we go.
Paris Jackson
The film panders to a very specific section of my dad's fandom that still lives in the fantasy. And they're gonna be happy with it. The thing about these biopics is they're. It's Hollywood.
Rob
So this is, this is, it's.
Paris Jackson
It's fantasy land. It's not real, but it's sold to you as real. And a lot of sugar coated, like the narrative is being controlled and there's a lot of inaccuracy and there's a lot of just full blown eyes.
Maureen Callahan
You can watch the, the longer portion of that on her Instagram. But the Daily Mail has very, very good sourcing. It's in a piece that's up available right now saying that Paris believes her father is guilty of abusing these boys sexually.
Rob
Let's look at Entertainment Tonight's extensive coverage
Maureen Callahan
of this film, this.
Rob
That aired leading up to the movie's Release day on Friday, April 24. I refuse to call this movie a biopic. I do.
Maureen Callahan
It's a fantasy.
Rob
It's a fucking fairy tale.
Maureen Callahan
Sample questions. How long were you in hair and makeup? What scene or moment while filming made you feel the most emotional?
Rob
And putting more top spin on that banality, which performance was the most emotional for you?
Maureen Callahan
Here is Jafar Jackson, who plays his uncle. And talk about a family sickness. I mean, the Kennedys are sick. We're getting to it in C block. The Jackson family is among America's sickest, sickest. My opinion, Jafar Jackson on playing his
Rob
uncle, a child predator, great with a tune, did the moonwalk, invented it, whatever. I think Michael, even in a later
Maureen Callahan
interview, another interview that we're going to discuss at a later point, Michael admits he stole the moonwalk.
Rob
You know, he stole it, refined it, whatever.
Maureen Callahan
Okay.
Rob
Here's Jafar with Entertainment Tonight's Kevin Frazier at a Michael Jackson interview. Michael Jackson exhibit, excuse me, in Berlin. And Kevin saying to Jafar, hey, man, this movie's a piece of hot. This is just the beginning for you. Just the beginning for you. Your stars on the rise. Playing a child predator.
Maureen Callahan
You're playing a pedophile.
Rob
Now, of course, we didn't get to that in this movie. This is only part one. Can't tell the whole story. Can't give it all away. No, you gotta.
Maureen Callahan
Gotta make people want to know what's coming up. Anyway, here's Kevin telling Jafar what a bright future he's got and asking a
Rob
question for the ages.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go.
James Manley
Now, this is. This movie is just the beginning.
Stacy Brown
So what will we see in the
Maureen Callahan
next phase of this?
Rob
Kevin, are you for real? What are we going to see in the next phase of this? There's only one story to tell, my man. I don't think you want the answer to that. Coming up, your feedback. See you in a minute.
Maureen Callahan
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Rob
And for a limited time, Nerve listeners
Maureen Callahan
get up to 25% off their entire order.
Rob
Just head to cowboycolostrum.com Maureen and use code MAUREEN at checkout.
Maureen Callahan
That's 25% off when you use code
Rob
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Angie Hicks (repeat)
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Rob
we are back.
Maureen Callahan
It is time for the best part
Rob
of every Nerve Troublemaker feedback.
Maureen Callahan
But first we have a very exciting announcement. We're excited anyway, but we think you will be too.
Rob
The Nerve is going live for our
Maureen Callahan
first live stream of the Met Gala,
Rob
the 76th annual Met Gala, but the first Met Gala to be presented to us by Amazon Prime Whole Foods next Monday.
Maureen Callahan
We begin May 4, 8pm Eastern. Some of your very favorite troublemakers will
Rob
be in the house. And trust me when I tell you, we at Team Nerve have been brainstorming about props, sight gags, audio, who we're covering, how we're covering it, and we
Maureen Callahan
have been having more fun than anyone has a right to have at work.
Rob
But we don't even consider this work
Maureen Callahan
because we love the Nerve so much
Rob
and we love bringing you the kind
Maureen Callahan
of unhinged content frankly, we hope you're coming for.
Rob
So check out the Nerve's Instagram page
Maureen Callahan
at the Nerve show for more details. I will be posting on my own
Rob
page as well, but yes, next Monday, 8pm ET. Now this weekend was also a big anniversary for me.
Maureen Callahan
It wasn't just that the Nerve turned one last week, but this weekend marked the first anniversary of my inaugural space flight.
Rob
You know I don't like to brag
Maureen Callahan
about this, but yes, I too am an astronaut.
Rob
Gail was interviewed by Page Six at
Maureen Callahan
an event over the weekend.
Rob
I Believe. And she said that she had.
Maureen Callahan
I have to pull this up from Sophie over at Team Nerve, who texted
Rob
it to me this morning. The lovely Sophie, she's an astronaut. And I'm reading from the item. Gayle King is under no illusions that her 10 minute jaunt on the Blue Origin mission alongside.
Maureen Callahan
We know who she was alongside, is
Rob
in any way comparable to the Artemis
Maureen Callahan
2's recent trip to see the moon.
Rob
Quote, they are the true astronauts. Gail told page6.com's Nikki Gossett.
Maureen Callahan
Oh, my gosh, she's at the time 100 gala.
Rob
The most influential people. Would you believe Dakota Johnson was at that thing? Get real. Okay. Quote, it was such a moment for all of us to see what they did. King added, I'm not putting myself in that category. You're not? Are you sure? Because here's Gail talking about Blue Origin and demanding that we, all of us out here, we're not supposed to call it a ride. No, that's sexist.
Maureen Callahan
That's sexist.
Rob
And by the way, there's more. This is Gail, just one year ago. Okay, April 15, 2025. A day that will live in infamy.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go.
Sunny Hostin
Have you been?
Maureen Callahan
Have you been?
Sunny Hostin
If you've been and you still feel
Maureen Callahan
that way after you come back, please, let's have a conversation. Number three, please don't call it a ride. That is not a friggin ride.
Rob
Gail. Gail, I too have been. I'm totally open to having a conversation about the ride I took with Megan Kelly and with Sarah, the hairstylist who, who was Lauren Sanchez. I'm totally open to it. Let's have a chat. You know, it's a very small club. We belong to Gail. I mean, I understand there may be a conflict of interest because we are
Maureen Callahan
also actively searching for Steadman's remains.
Rob
You are among our prime suspects, along with Oprah. But I would like to think we
Maureen Callahan
could put that aside. We could put that aside as women of space. Outer space.
Rob
Now, this was one other thing that
Maureen Callahan
Marlena caught over the weekend and she called me and we were cracking up over it.
Rob
You know how if you go on the YouTube channel and it will say
Maureen Callahan
how long, how long ago or how recently any given segment was published on the channel.
Rob
Like, oh, like this segment on, you know, Michael Jackson. It went up like five hours ago. There was one on our channel, an episode of the Nerve, and they dated
Maureen Callahan
it as going up 56 years ago.
Rob
50? I wasn't even born 56 years ago. So like I said to her, are we like, is it like Jack Nicholson in the Shining? Can we show this portrait, you know,
Maureen Callahan
at the end of the Shining?
Rob
You know, Jack Nicholson? We wind up seeing him in one of the photos behind the bar of like all the people from like the 1930s. Like, he's always been there. Like, was he always there? Like, how did he get there? That's. I feel like is, did. Is something happening in the space time
Maureen Callahan
continuum with the Nerve?
Rob
Like, did something happen to us? Did we, did we piss off the wrong person? Anyone?
Maureen Callahan
If anything happens to the Nerve or to your humble troublemaker in chief, Gail and Oprah. Gail and Oprah.
Rob
Hi, Maureen.
Maureen Callahan
My wife and I love your podcast. Thank. Thanks, Phil.
Rob
I think you guys have written before the headline.
Maureen Callahan
Mike Vrable, if I'm saying his name right, or Vrabel and Diana Rossini.
Rob
Have you been following the football coach
Maureen Callahan
and sports commentator affairs?
Rob
Yes.
Maureen Callahan
Apparently this has been going on for several years. Oh, there's a lot more to this story. Phil thinks so. I think so too.
Rob
Check it out if you have a chance. We have added this to our agenda
Maureen Callahan
for Bill from Brooklyn's next appearance.
Rob
We've got several things we need Bill
Maureen Callahan
to weigh in on, explain to us, etc.
Rob
Troublemakers coming out against Jon Hamm. So you know the Criterion Closet, the Criterion Collection, which is that like very
Maureen Callahan
curated collection of film of like, what, what is considered like, cinema, you know, foreign and domestic art house, groundbreaking, independent, all of it. I'm a huge fan of the Criterion Collection. I have a subscription. I can think of nothing that would be more fun than to do one of those segments like, go get it. Get a chance to be in the Criterion Collection and, and pick like your five movies. So Jon Hamm, Melanie says it's okay
Rob
to use your name. Troublemaker Melanie went into the esteemed Criterion Closet and out came, as of 6pm Friday, at least five commenters regarding his felonious frat fuckery Melanie. Love the alliteration.
Maureen Callahan
Love it.
Rob
High culture, low culture. Troublemakers are everywhere.
Maureen Callahan
And that's what makes troublemakers untouchable.
Rob
Dear Maureen, Love Story, Lovebirds is the headline. I wonder how many other troublemakers caught this. I certainly did not. In the final frames of Love Story,
Maureen Callahan
episode nine, beginning at about 54 minutes as they pan out over the ocean, there are two seabirds, almost imperceptible, flying over it. Were these supposed to represent John and Carolyn? Flying free, I would bet. So Troublemaker C. That, that's a great catch. It's, you know what, and that's really fucked up. Of the filmmakers, there was nothing. I've said it many times before, but
Rob
I also want to add, there's a great piece on the Daily Mail. Plus, it's an interview with one of Carolyn's oldest, closest friends, a designer she
Maureen Callahan
met at Calvin Klein named Gordon Henderson. Now, Gordon had some very, very interesting things to say about Carolyn. And I think. I think some of Carolyn's friends are, like, shiving her.
Rob
You know, they feel like enough time has elapsed. I. One of her friends who spoke to me for Ask not told me it took her a minute to really decide to do it. She remains anonymous, but because Carolyn was
Maureen Callahan
such a powerful presence that she feared Carolyn even in death. This is a very smart, sophisticated, accomplished, talented, bright woman.
Rob
But that's the kind of force, the powerful personality Carolyn Bessette had.
Maureen Callahan
And so Gordon Henderson let Carolyn.
Rob
He said she crashed with him, but
Maureen Callahan
really she lived with him rent free for six months. He had a very fashionable address in downtown New York. And once she got with John, she became the entitlement was through the roof. He came home one time to find clothes that he had bought on a trip, like to Japan or something. A real shop that he had done thoughtfully. All those clothes were on the floor. They had been unpacked from his expensive luggage that he had just purchased because she needed that luggage. She was taking it on a trip to Hyannis with the Kennedys.
Rob
So not enough.
Maureen Callahan
You're living with a guy rent free and probably not even paying for a meal. You steal his stuff, his expensive stuff while he's away. He also said that something that she and John would do to him very often. You're not going to believe this. Like, these two were terrible. And it's a good thing they never had kids. They would leave their dog Friday in front of Gordon's apartment door, like, while Gordon was out at work for hours or whatever, unannounced. And Gordon would come home and find this poor dog who had been there for hours without food or water or anything, a bathroom break
Rob
just there. And that was Gordon's way of knowing
Maureen Callahan
that Jean and Carolyn had taken off
Rob
for the weekend or however long they were gone for. Up on the Cape, you know, with the Kennedys and, you know, it's his job to watch their dog for free. Keep lionizing these. Keep at it. Okay. Dear Maureen.
Maureen Callahan
Oh, you may have seen this, but here's the link.
Rob
So much of what passes for celebrity
Maureen Callahan
beauty journalism, like, hey, Demi Moore, what are the products you use?
Rob
You know, Cindy Crawford's got, like, a
Maureen Callahan
infomercial that runs over the weekends.
Rob
Like, hey, it's meaningful beauty. It's my special skincare line I developed with my high class, expensive Beverly Hills dermatologist. And every woman in America can also look like me. You can't, okay? Not unless you have a private nutritionist, a private trainer, and a plastic surgeon on speed dial.
Maureen Callahan
That's how Cindy Crawford looks.
Rob
Like that. I also suspect I have no inside knowledge of such. But I do suspect Cindy Crawford is
Maureen Callahan
also taking human growth hormone, which has been very popular in Hollywood for a very long time because it retards the physical aging process. But one of the side effects of HDH is if you are feminine, it will make you look masculine. And Cindy Crawford looks really masculine.
Rob
She is aged in a very masculine manner. The article is a promotional stint, of course. This troublemaker Britchick writes.
Maureen Callahan
But the excuses Demi deems to convey,
Rob
especially about her cheekbones.
Maureen Callahan
Those are either surgical implants or they are done with filler. Look at photos of Demi Moore as a young woman. She did not have cheekbones. She did not have much in the way of facial bone structure. She did not.
Rob
And her recipe for a healthy and vibrant life is about being curious. It's bs. Stop it right now. You've been under the knife more times this troublemaker says, than a hooker has been under Bill Maher. Sorry, Marlena. That is the actual. Aside from troublemaker Britchick, Marlena. Also, I just want to say the algorithm knows that I am involved with
Maureen Callahan
the Nerve because into it the other day came rumor Willis Rumer Willis, disturbed young woman. Wonder how she got that way, showing her face and looking like it.
Rob
It had like just like a.
Maureen Callahan
One major slick of Vaseline over it.
Rob
And it was.
Maureen Callahan
The skin was so aggravated and she was writing about how she picks her skin on her face and it's like a lifelong compulsion that she's still. She's still engaging in it. That's a disturbed person. That's you.
Rob
I Rob and I say this to
Maureen Callahan
each other all the time. Thank whoever your God is every day that you weren't born to famous people.
Rob
Oh my God, Maureen, you had me at Jon Hamm. It's a theme. Gorgeous but grotesque. Yes, yes, yes. At the end of your first birthday episode, you and Marlena joked about Oprah and Gail. This troublemaker thinks that we, meaning Marlena and I, are more akin to Betty and Veronica. Good and evil, depending on who's wanting what. I love that.
Maureen Callahan
Thank you. Our final email today.
Rob
Hi Maureen.
Maureen Callahan
Happy birthday to the Nerve.
Rob
My son is constantly watching Blackish and
Maureen Callahan
I always like a good troublemaker. Like a good troublemaker. Troublemaker D I always want to hit the pause button and tell him this is a man writing to us.
Rob
By the way that woman exfoliates in public. Never ever choose such a woman.
Maureen Callahan
I never do, Troublemaker D writes. But someday his son, he says, is a little too young to be a troublemaker. But when the time comes, he'll be a mo bro, raising him right.
Rob
Troublemaker D Am I a masochist for enjoying Marlena's punishment? I don't know, Troublemaker D I forget
Maureen Callahan
what her punishment even was.
Rob
And finally, our Austin based troublemaker says,
Maureen Callahan
I think we need two new shirts for Nerve Merch.
Rob
One that says get out and the other that says fuck all the way off. Keep your feedback coming. Email me at maureenvilmakeremedia.com or DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, writer, or
Maureen Callahan
at the Nerve show. Remember to subscribe to the Nerve Substack. That is our weekly email.
Rob
It's all of the content we couldn't
Maureen Callahan
get into the show, plus bonus stuff.
Rob
My recommendations Troublemaker Talk. Just a ton of great stuff.
Maureen Callahan
Go over to thenerveshow.com the mothership, our website. You will see a prompt. Would you like to subscribe to the Nerve Substack? Please do. Really, why else are you on this earth?
Rob
Then you'll have an option to subscribe
Maureen Callahan
and we encourage you if you can. Please do. It's only five bucks a month and
Rob
otherwise it helps the show grow.
Maureen Callahan
You know, in addition, I should say rather, in addition, it helps the show to grow.
Rob
And another friendly reminder, if you would like to enter the Nerves first contest to win a signed copy of Rob's new novel, his dishy, scandalous showbiz novel
Maureen Callahan
based on his time hosting a morning show over on cable tv. Send in your favorite celebrity scandal of all time. It could be Marilyn Monroe and jfk. It could be Anthony and Cleopatra.
Rob
It could be Brad and Angie. Send it in. Tell us why.
Maureen Callahan
It could even be Marlena snuck this in. Marlena, it is time for another intervention.
Rob
She said it could even be producer
Maureen Callahan
Marlena and Bill Maher secretly meeting in the woodshed.
Rob
Listen, if you must hook up with him, have at it. Just do not be foul the woodshed, okay? I do not want to have to desecrate the woodshed with a blue light and luminol, okay? As it is, we're trying to keep Ryan Reynolds from starting fires in that thing. Up to you guys. Up to you. Email emily lmaycare media.com with your favorite
Maureen Callahan
celebrity scandal NY to enter for one of five signed copies of Rob's new book. We will announce the winners on a future nerve.
Rob
Up next, another.
Maureen Callahan
Oh my God. You know, I'm happy to see that Ask not has a long tail. Not long enough apparently, because there is
Rob
yet another Kennedy wife who has yet
Maureen Callahan
to get the memo. And even as we show you you this video footage that will make you laugh and cry at the same time.
Rob
She's not going anywhere. See you in a minute. A lot of skincare companies out there
Maureen Callahan
are purporting to sell wholesome natural products. The trouble is, most of the big names out there are owned by mega corporations and private equity firms that prioritize profit over quality. Fortunately, one company is doing things differently and that is Van Man. They started the tallow trend a few years back with their grass fed tallow moisturizers and they have been crushing it ever since. Tallow makes for a great moisturizer because the fatty acids in tallow are nearly identical to the oils in our own skin so our bodies actually recognize it. One use and you will feel the difference. And I can tell you I have tried their moisturizer and their lip balm. I love them both. This is true. Plus, there are no chemicals, no filler. And a little of this product goes a long way, making it very economical. Tallow balm isn't just a moisturizer. It can also replace your night cream
Rob
as discussed, wrinkle cream, even Neosporin and diaper balm. It's powerful enough to heal the skin, yet safe enough to spread on your toast.
Maureen Callahan
These are real ingredients. How many other companies can say that? If you are ready to ditch the corporate chemicals, go to Vanman Shop Maureen and use code Maureen for 15% off your first order. That's Maureen for 15% off your 1st order.
Rob
Van Man.
Maureen Callahan
Real ingredients, no exceptions.
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Rob
Why have I asked my H Vac
Angie Hicks (repeat)
guy I found on angie.com to change
Rob
my grandpa's trachea tube?
Angie Hicks (repeat)
I was so amazed at how we replaced our air ducts. I knew I could Trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.
Rob
I think we should call a doctor,
Angie Hicks
Angie, the one you trust to find
James Manley
the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
Maureen Callahan
before we get into the video of this particular alpha male Kennedy and his clearly long suffering wife that was taken over the weekend as the ballroom at the Washington Hilton was being evacuated after an active shooting shooter was shot by law enforcement and Secret Service. I just want to talk a little bit about how that could have happened because I've been to that dinner in the past several years. I was not there this weekend. I had friends who were there and were, I mean, really shaken up, understandably so. But the media coverage I have been seeing by the very same media, by
Rob
the very same journalists who are in
Maureen Callahan
that ballroom, they keep asking, like, how could this have happened? How could this have happened?
Rob
And I just want to say exactly
Maureen Callahan
how this could have happened.
Rob
Like, I just want to say, and
Maureen Callahan
this is how it happened. This is how it happened. In the years I have gone to that event, I have been booked into that same hotel, the Washington Hilton, for expediency, right?
Rob
You go, you go from your room, you take the elevator down to the
Maureen Callahan
ballroom, you go to the dinner. If you want to be done at the end of the night, you're back
Rob
in your room in five minutes flat. That hotel is enormous.
Maureen Callahan
Every time I have checked into that hotel for that, for that gala, the only thing they ask me for is
Rob
just like when you check into any
Maureen Callahan
hotel, ID and your credit card, there's no security there. Only, only in the hours leading up to the event do they establish a perimeter and do they have security.
Rob
But I've always found it incredibly lax.
Maureen Callahan
And it always blew my mind that anybody in the hours and days leading up to that event where the President of the United States and top administration officials will be for hours, could check into that hotel and have complete access. You really could. As we see, they did. And I don't see how that hotel can ever host that event again. An event like that needs to be held at a site where nobody stays there indefinitely based on how much money they spend. It needs to be a closed location with only entrance and egress. And it's completely surrounded by security.
Rob
And Secret Service has done background checks on everybody who's coming.
Maureen Callahan
Do you know what I'm saying? This was just a matter of time. And it was, it's a real near miss that nothing. It could have been a lot worse. It could have been a lot worse.
Rob
Now onto the the thing that just.
Maureen Callahan
You cannot help but laugh. You cannot help but laugh.
Rob
After they got Trump out, President Trump and the first lady, then they go for J.D.
Maureen Callahan
vance, and then. And then Secret Service goes. And they grab, you know, it's by
Rob
hierarchy, it's by line of succession, right? And they. They grab RFK Jr. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who it's all in ask not, you know, everything he did to his wife.
Maureen Callahan
He made Mary Richardson Kennedy's life a living hell. A living hell. He and Cheryl Hines. He was still legally married to Mary, and he and Cheryl Hines both.
Rob
My opinion, my interpretation of facts based
Maureen Callahan
on the many people I spoke to for this book, really enjoyed making Mary's life a misery.
Rob
And Bobby continued to do so even in death.
Maureen Callahan
You know, he fought Mary's siblings to
Rob
have Mary buried in the vaunted Kennedy plot up in Massachusetts. And then, like days later, he had
Maureen Callahan
her coffin secretly exhumed without permits in the middle of the night and moved to be buried alone on the side of a hill facing traffic. Would it surprise you to know that this guy ducked and ran for cover
Rob
under big burley Secret Service agents and left his wife to fend for herself in a strapless dress and high heels while an active shooting is taking place? That as far as they know. And by the way, it's not like she didn't grab his suit jacket and tug on it from several feet behind as if to say, hey, wait up. Don't leave me exposed out here. I don't want to die. Would that surprise you guys? We're going to enjoy it together. We're going to enjoy it together. Sit back, settle in and watch.
Maureen Callahan
Here we go. There they go, running, running, running.
Rob
And here comes Cheryl, her arm outstretched. She can barely move in her heels grabbing for him. And nobody's.
Maureen Callahan
Nobody's turning around, not even her husband.
Rob
He doesn't give a shit. He doesn't give a shit. All.
Maureen Callahan
Listen, sister, I must.
Rob
I must avail yourself, okay? Even Jackie Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe were expendable, okay? Having starred on a premium cable show
Maureen Callahan
for a few seasons.
Rob
That's nothing, sister. That's nothing. But here she is. She took to Instagram within hours to make sure that we all don't think
Maureen Callahan
we saw what we saw with our own eyes.
Rob
Oh, no. Oh, no.
Maureen Callahan
We all misunderstand. Here she goes.
Cheryl Hines
So we were there and we heard shots and everybody got under the tables. Nobody knew what was going on. And then, you know, Bobby's security detail surrounded us and took us. Him, I mean, really, like, had to lift me over chairs because I'm in heels. And a gown.
Rob
What?
Cheryl Hines
And they took us through all of the back.
Rob
Okay, that's enough. That's enough. That's enough. We saw it. We saw it. He didn't care who he left behind. Cheryl, you're an afterthought at best. You're.
Sunny Hostin
You're.
Rob
You're an adornment. You're his insulation from being the disgusting, womanizing, misogynistic cretin he is. You're just the window dressing. And if that doesn't make you file for divorce, you've got everything else karmically coming to you. That's it. That's it for our Tuesday edition of the Nerve. Come back and see us tomorrow, won't you? For the Nerve at night, if you haven't already, check out our substack.
Maureen Callahan
That is our weekly email to which you can subscribe over@thenerveshow.com our mothership, our homepage, thenerve show.com. it's all there.
Rob
Be sure to subscribe.
Maureen Callahan
It's five bucks a month. It helps the show to expand.
Rob
Plus nerve merch. Grab something for yourself or a fellow troublemaker atshopthe nerve.com and remember, one week from last Monday. Right, one week from yesterday, it's the Nerves First Met Gala Live stream. We will begin the ceremony at 8 a. Oh, sorry.
Maureen Callahan
8pm 8pm Eastern. Monday, May 4, 8pm Eastern.
Rob
The nerves Met Gala live stream with
Maureen Callahan
some of your favorite troublemakers in studio. Teddy might be there. He might. He's negotiating his terms. Very difficult. Very difficult. We will see you back here tomorrow
Rob
at the Nerve, where you will never
Maureen Callahan
guess what we're about to say next.
Angie Hicks
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Wade Robson
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Angie Hicks (repeat)
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs ops will be done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie Combination.
Date: April 28, 2026
Host: Maureen Callahan
Guest: Stacy Brown (Senior Global Correspondent, Black Press Media USA; co-author of Michael Jackson: The Man Behind the Mask)
This episode dives deep into the newly released Michael Jackson biopic, the Jackson family’s internal conflicts and scandals, the media’s role in shaping Jackson’s legacy, ongoing and unresolved allegations of abuse, coverage of the estate’s legal woes, and scathing critiques of celebrity hypocrisy and media complicity. Host Maureen Callahan, with her trademark skepticism and biting humor, is joined by renowned Jackson family chronicler Stacy Brown, who brings new revelations and first-person insight into one of America’s most controversial entertainment dynasties. The show also highlights recent pop culture moments, including a viral instance of RFK Jr. abandoning his wife Cheryl Hines during an active shooter evacuation, and Gayle King’s self-important astronaut claims—showcasing The Nerve’s blend of pop culture, true crime, and outright media critique.
On the biopic/media:
On the Jackson family:
On the Cheryl Hines/RFK Jr. video:
On Gayle King:
The episode ends with the signature "troublemaker" tone—irreverent, sharp, fearless, refusing to let the powerful or the complicit off easy. Maureen promises to keep probing the stories no one else will, and to keep the Nerve’s audience awake to the realities behind pop culture’s most sanitized narratives.