EXCLUSIVE Jackson Family Scandal Revealed , Cheryl Hines Dissed by RFK Jr., and Gayle King's Hypocrisy

Summary

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The Nerve with Maureen Callahan

Episode: EXCLUSIVE Jackson Family Scandal Revealed, Cheryl Hines Dissed by RFK Jr., and Gayle King's Hypocrisy

Date: April 28, 2026
Host: Maureen Callahan
Guest: Stacy Brown (Senior Global Correspondent, Black Press Media USA; co-author of Michael Jackson: The Man Behind the Mask)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the newly released Michael Jackson biopic, the Jackson family’s internal conflicts and scandals, the media’s role in shaping Jackson’s legacy, ongoing and unresolved allegations of abuse, coverage of the estate’s legal woes, and scathing critiques of celebrity hypocrisy and media complicity. Host Maureen Callahan, with her trademark skepticism and biting humor, is joined by renowned Jackson family chronicler Stacy Brown, who brings new revelations and first-person insight into one of America’s most controversial entertainment dynasties. The show also highlights recent pop culture moments, including a viral instance of RFK Jr. abandoning his wife Cheryl Hines during an active shooter evacuation, and Gayle King’s self-important astronaut claims—showcasing The Nerve’s blend of pop culture, true crime, and outright media critique.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dissecting the Michael Jackson Biopic & Media Complicity

• The new biopic "Michael" is box office gold but draws widespread criticism for whitewashing Jackson’s personal scandals.
• Maureen and Rob call out the mainstream media for presenting only a “whitewashed” narrative, praising Jackson’s genius while sidestepping deeper controversies ([03:09]).
  • Rob: "The media has gone back to doing what it was doing back in the early 90s… do we really know?"
  • Maureen: “We’re doing a cultural, criminal prosecution—the case against Michael Jackson.” ([03:05])
• Janet and Paris Jackson’s reactions: Paris publicly condemned the biopic for “inaccuracies” and, per The Daily Mail, believes the abuse allegations. Janet Jackson, meanwhile, refuses to back the film, primarily out of an ongoing feud with the Jackson estate over money ([07:01], [09:02]).
  • Stacy: “Janet… back to her brother with the allegations. This is about money.” ([09:02])

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2. Jackson Family Dynamics: Inheritance, Scandal, and Secrets

• Maureen and Stacy Brown break down the family’s enduring conflict over Michael Jackson’s estate and legacy:
  • Michael intentionally excluded his siblings and parents from his will, entrusting control to John Branca and John McClain ([10:29]).
  • Stacy: “Michael never wanted his family in his business. His will is a reflection of that.” ([09:02])
• The film omits or downplays the most disturbing allegations—particularly against patriarch Joe Jackson:
  • Rumors of extreme abuse (physical and possibly sexual) are discussed, with Stacy Brown detailing conversations with Jackson siblings, especially Rebbie (Maureen) Jackson, who confirmed “molestation” but disputes outright “rape” ([14:08]-[15:17]).
  • Stacy: “‘She [Rebbie] used the word molested… if you’re a child, there’s really no difference.’” ([14:19])

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3. Abuse Allegations: The Open Secret

• The show's most explosive segment (starts at [12:07]):
  • Detailed discussion on the deeply rooted and long-discussed perception in the music industry that Michael was the primary victim of Joe Jackson’s brutality, possibly both sexual and physical.
  • Stacy shares that family therapy and interventions around 2001 revealed deep trauma and that Michael was explicit about not expecting to live long ([16:55]):
    • “He told his family, ‘I’ll be dead in a year, anyway.’ He wanted them to leave him alone.” ([16:55])
• The film’s sanitized depiction:
  • Stacy notes that “the cursing of Joe Jackson in [theater] was… palpable… But I don’t totally agree that it’s whitewashed. They went into just enough detail without getting gory” ([17:58])
  • Maureen pushes back—saying if the public knew “the whole story,” the cultural understanding of childhood sexual abuse would be different ([19:16]).
  • Rob: “A ratification of this [biopic] is a grave moral injury to [victims] and to the culture and our understanding of what childhood sexual abuse is.” ([23:26])

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4. Cultural and Critical Media Analysis

• Maureen tears into the glowing coverage from The New York Times and other mainstream outlets, reading op-eds that celebrate Jackson’s music while minimizing or editorializing about his abuse allegations ([25:13]-[29:01]).
  • “Why can’t it be both? Why can’t you be like, you know what? I loved the guy’s music… and I know he did it.” ([27:19] - Maureen)
• Criticizes the estate’s efforts to erase or recast negative stories—including pressuring HBO to remove "Leaving Neverland" ([29:49]).
• Discusses the upcoming trial involving the estate and survivors Wade Robson and James Safechuck ([29:30]).

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5. Survivors’ Testimonies — Revisiting Graphic Evidence

• Playback and analysis of infamous interviews and documentaries:
  • Excerpts from “Living with Michael Jackson” (Martin Bashir interview, [31:29]) and survivors Robson and Safechuck describing years of abuse ([33:38], [38:24]).
  • Maureen: “That’s the mind fuck. That’s how these abusers work. To this day, he can look back and say ‘I loved him. I know he loved me.’” ([34:02])
• Testimony from former Jackson maid Adrian McManus (60 Minutes Australia, [44:07], [47:19]):
  • Surveilling evidence of boys’ underwear left in Jackson’s bedroom, “crunchy hard with yellow stains.”
  • Large amounts of Vaseline found everywhere.
  • Maureen: “Speaking for us all.” ([51:49])

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6. Critique of Celebrity Media and Public Figures

• The View panel is lambasted for soft-pedaling and offering “talking points” about the movie ([41:19]-[46:02]).
  • Maureen: “[Sunny Hostin’s] a former federal prosecutor. She should be outraged.” ([43:19])
  • “You can hold two competing thoughts in your brain at the same time… That’s intelligence.” ([46:13] - Maureen)
• Entertainment Tonight’s “banal” coverage is mocked for its sycophancy ([57:27]):
  • “All spin, no substance. Playing a child predator... your star's on the rise.” ([58:17]-[58:57])
• Paris Jackson on Instagram: “This film panders to a very specific section of my dad’s fandom… it’s fantasy land. It’s not real, but it's sold to you as real.” ([56:30])

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7. RFK Jr. and Cheryl Hines: Viral Clip, Gender Roles & Image Management

• Viral video segment: During an active shooter event at a D.C. gala, RFK Jr. bolts for safety with his Secret Service entourage, leaving wife Cheryl Hines trailing, struggling in heels ([85:38]).
  • Maureen: “Would it surprise you to know that this guy ducked and ran… and left his wife to fend for herself… I don’t want to die. Would that surprise you guys? We’re going to enjoy it together.” ([85:21])
  • Cheryl quickly spins the event on Instagram, but Maureen calls her out: “We saw it. He didn’t care who he left behind. Cheryl, you're an afterthought at best.” ([87:05])

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8. Gayle King’s “Astronaut” Hypocrisy

• Maureen humorously shreds Gayle King for demanding her suborbital Blue Origin trip not be called a “ride”—contradicting her own recent comments ([64:34]).
  • “I'm not putting myself in that category [as real astronauts]… Please don’t call it a ride. That is not a friggin ride.” ([64:34]-[65:01])

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9. Mailbag, Nerve Community & Upcoming Events

• Engages with listener feedback—pop culture scandals, the Kennedy/Bessette legacy, reader tips on celebrity “beauty journalism,” critiques of media coverage, and more ([67:01] onward).
• Announces The Nerve’s live Met Gala stream, May 4th, 8pm Eastern ([62:08]-[62:28]).
• Contest: Listeners invited to send in their favorite celebrity scandal to win a signed novel ([77:14]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the biopic/media:

  • “The media has gone back to doing what it was doing back in the early 90s ... Do we really know?” – Rob ([03:11])
  • “Michael never wanted his family in his business. His will is a reflection of that.” – Stacy Brown ([09:02])
  • “The mind fuck. That’s how these abusers work ... I loved him. And I know he loved me.” – Maureen ([34:02])
  • “A ratification of this is a moral injury ... to the culture and our understanding of what childhood sexual abuse is.” – Rob ([23:26])
  • “[Jafar Jackson is] playing a pedophile… Your star’s on the rise.” – Maureen ([58:59])

• On the Jackson family:

  • “If what these boys survived means anything, we have to do it.” – Maureen ([30:51])
  • “If the public knew the whole story… [of] what a monster Joe Jackson really was… This is not a feel good Americana story anymore.” – Maureen ([19:16]-[20:19])
  • “Michael saves everything, and I do mean everything. ...Among his very personal souvenirs is his own nose cartilage extracted during surgery. This is one of the most disturbed minds I’ve ever read about.” – Maureen ([55:06])

• On the Cheryl Hines/RFK Jr. video:

  • “Would it surprise you ... ducked and ran for cover ... left his wife to fend for herself in a strapless dress and high heels ... would that surprise you guys? ... We’re going to enjoy it together.” – Maureen ([85:21])
  • “We saw it. He didn’t care who he left behind. Cheryl, you're an afterthought at best.” – Maureen ([87:05])

• On Gayle King:

  • “Please don’t call it a ride. That is not a friggin ride.” – Gayle King, quoted by Maureen ([65:01])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:20] – Show introduction & setup
• [05:14] – Introduction of guest Stacy Brown
• [07:01] – Paris Jackson, Janet’s response, family rift
• [09:02] – Janet v. estate, money vs. loyalty
• [12:07] – Deep dive into abuse rumors & family secrets
• [14:08] – Rebbie Jackson interview—abuse terminology
• [16:55] – Michael’s interventions, wish to die
• [23:03] – The biopic’s cultural whitewashing
• [25:13] – New York Times & media analysis
• [29:30] – Estate trial, Leaving Neverland, Robson/Safechuck
• [31:29] – Playback: Living with Michael Jackson (Bashir interview)
• [33:38] – Audio from survivors, mind games of abusers
• [38:24] – Graphic testimony: details of abuse
• [41:12] – The View segment, panel analysis
• [44:07] – Maid testimony: evidence at Neverland
• [46:02] – Alyssa, Sarah on The View, rationalizing the movie
• [51:49] – Vaseline and physical evidence segment
• [56:30] – Paris Jackson’s Instagram statement
• [57:27] – Entertainment Tonight coverage critique
• [58:59] – Maureen and Rob on the family’s “sickness”
• [62:08] – Met Gala live stream announcement
• [85:21] – RFK Jr./Cheryl Hines viral evacuation analysis
• [87:05] – Cheryl’s Instagram spin, Maureen calls her out

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Finale: The Nerve’s Unique Voice

The episode ends with the signature "troublemaker" tone—irreverent, sharp, fearless, refusing to let the powerful or the complicit off easy. Maureen promises to keep probing the stories no one else will, and to keep the Nerve’s audience awake to the realities behind pop culture’s most sanitized narratives.

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Useful Links & Follow-ups

• Instagram: @thenerveshow | @maureencallahanwriter
• Website: thenerveshow.com
• Substack Subscription: Weekly bonus content and show archives
• Contest Submission: Email favorite celebrity scandal to [e-mail]

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Transcript

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[Maureen Callahan]

Com.

[Rob]

Look at me. It's Timmy T about to hit him with the zts.

[Stacy Brown]

Let's do a problem. Let us see the probability you see me on tv.

[Rob]

Hello and welcome to your Tuesday edition of the Nerve.

[Maureen Callahan]

I am your host Maureen Callahan. We have so much to get to today.

[Rob]

That cold open, by the way, that was one Timothy Shamalama. Ding dong. Another rap video from his high school years at New York's LaGuardia Academy for the Performing Arts, the Fame School. Okay, you think that's a crime against the culture? You think that music is a crime against the culture?

[Maureen Callahan]

We're doing it.

[Rob]

We asked you guys and you said

[Maureen Callahan]

yes, please do this. Michael Jackson, the biopic Michael released this past weekend.

[Rob]

A lot of mainstream media pushing this story, pushing how great the movie is. Oh, yeah, he was kind, kind of problematic in his private life, but God, what a musical genius. We're doing it first. We have got a guy I've known since way back at my days at

[Maureen Callahan]

the New York Post. And when I tell you that this guy is. Is the preeminent expert on the Jackson family, has known the Jackson family for decades, has written about them like, you're

[Rob]

going to love him. You're going to love him as much as I love him.

[Maureen Callahan]

And he is breaking news on this show. He is revealing scandal regarding this family that has really never been properly reported or discussed before. Thank you.

[Rob]

Thank you, mainstream media for turning the other way, for actively ignoring one of the biggest stories in celebrity culture in American pop culture of the past hundred years. I'm going to say since the time pop culture got invented. Thank you. Leave it to the Nerve.

[Maureen Callahan]

Leave it to the Nerve.

[Rob]

Then I'm going to culturally criminally prosecute

[Maureen Callahan]

the case against Michael Jackson because the

[Rob]

media has gone back to doing what

[Maureen Callahan]

it was doing back in the early 90s and onwards. Do we really know?

[Rob]

Yeah, he's weird and he doesn't seem to hang around other adults. And you know, he did marry Lisa Marie Presley and he did kiss her

[Maureen Callahan]

on the, on the MTV Movie Awards

[Rob]

and it did look weird. But he really seems to light up the most when he's around small boys. Could there be something wrong here? Then, then we have got troublemaker feedback. We have an update on another repeat offender. It's, it's another anniversary here at the Nerve for this repeat offender and for

[Maureen Callahan]

me, your humble troublemaker in chief.

[Rob]

And then we have.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh my God, you guys. It is video footage.

[Rob]

And what I love about video and

[Maureen Callahan]

what I love about photos, even in

[Rob]

the world of AI is you really can't lie your way out of them. And this video is going in the books already. Again, it is a major contender for the Nerve 2026 awards.

[Maureen Callahan]

Are you ready?

[Rob]

Are you ready? Let's go.

[Maureen Callahan]

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[Maureen Callahan]

and free rush shipping so that you can add Lean to your healthy diet and exercise plan as soon as possible. Visit takelean.com and enter Maureen for your discount.

[Rob]

That is promo code maureenakelean.com joining us now, Stacy Brown who is. I first came to know Stacey when

[Maureen Callahan]

I was at the New York Post. Anytime there was a major story breaking about Michael Jackson or the Jackson family,

[Rob]

Stacy was the go to reporter and

[Maureen Callahan]

remains remains, I think the preeminent Jackson reporter in America. He is the senior global correspondent for

[Rob]

Black Press Media USA and was a close family friend of the Jackson family

[Maureen Callahan]

for over two decades.

[Rob]

He is also the co author of

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael Jackson the Man behind the Mask. Stacy, welcome to the Nerve.

[Stacy Brown]

Thanks for having me.

[Rob]

It's so nice to see you in like face to face. I've only ever spoken to you on the phone, right?

[Stacy Brown]

Exactly. So we just put at the Post, for the most part with folks at the Post.

[Rob]

So, yeah, I know they really need to get into the digital age and at least FaceTime with you. So, Stacey, tell us what you know

[Maureen Callahan]

about the Jackson family reaction to.

[Rob]

I mean, the movie outperformed expectations at the box office.

[Maureen Callahan]

There's surely going to be a sequel.

[Rob]

We know that par.

[Maureen Callahan]

We know that Paris Jackson, Michael's daughter,

[Rob]

has been public about disavowing the movie entirely, saying it's got inaccuracies. Over at the Daily Mail, we have

[Maureen Callahan]

solid sourcing that Paris believes the allegations against her father as a serial child molester are true.

[Rob]

Janet Jackson has stayed far away from

[Maureen Callahan]

this film as well, arguably the second most famous Jackson. What are you hearing?

[Stacy Brown]

From my understanding. And there you go. What you just told me, I did not know, believe it or not, that Paris might believe the allegations, but Janet is not a surprise. She and, and Randy have had a problem with the estate from day one and they were never going to back anything that this, this estate had their hands in. So that doesn't, that doesn't surprise me. But the family, they're enjoying themselves for the most part. And the reason they're enjoying themselves is not just because the movie is successful and not just because Jafar did an outstanding job, but because it puts the Jacksons back where they really want to be. It puts them back in the spotlight, it makes them a listers again. That's the real thing here. When you cut through the noise, that's

[Rob]

the bottom line again, on the back of Michael, you know, these. On the backs of Michael standing. That's how it always was. You know, talk to me a bit about what, you know, is Janet's problem with the estate, because remember when, after Jackson was acquitted in that criminal case

[Maureen Callahan]

in LA of child molestation, he and

[Rob]

Janet secretly cut that single Scream, secretly recorded that video, which was a huge mtv, like, world premiere. And it was basically Janet throwing her very considerable star power and the goodwill.

[Maureen Callahan]

I mean, America loved Janet Jackson behind her brother Michael.

[Rob]

Has her opinion on these allegations changed?

[Maureen Callahan]

Or is the fight with the estate solely over money?

[Stacy Brown]

It's only over money. Janet, everything that I know about her, she, she's. She's back to her brother with the allegations. This is about, about money, the. The idea the family wanted to control Michael's finances, his estate after he passed away, which is ludicrous in a lot of ways, because that's something Michael's wishes are being carried out. He picked who he wanted to pick. And I know that there were some questions about the will. But guess what? All three wills had the name John Brinko on them. So you, you can't, you know, you can argue, they can argue all they want. The bottom line is Michael never wanted his family in his business. And his will is a reflection of that. He never wanted them to take care. Now, he knew he had to know, at least in my view and everything I know about him and everything I know about them, he had to know that if, and in fact, of course we know he did pass away, that once he passed away, if he passed away at such an early age that his family would benefit from whatever money that anybody taking over, Branker McLean taking over, they would benefit. And they have. They benefited mightily. And this movie, like I said to you at the top, the biggest benefit, more than money, is being a listers

[Maureen Callahan]

again, being part of the cultural conversation without question.

[Rob]

Now, Stacey, by the way, just before we move on, those men that you mentioned, those were Michael's business advisors, slash attorneys.

[Stacy Brown]

Yes. John Branca, who's in the movie. Miles Teller plays John Branca. John McLean, longtime business partner. John McLean actually grew up with the Jacksons in Indiana. So he's, he has a long history with the family, particularly with Michael.

[Rob]

Now, I want to get to the

[Maureen Callahan]

sort of heart of this, you know, where you said this is such a salient point.

[Rob]

Michael wrote three wills.

[Maureen Callahan]

He knew he wasn't long for this world. The way he was living.

[Rob]

He probably wanted to die on some level. I think just my supposition, he wrote three wills.

[Stacy Brown]

I don't disagree.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay.

[Rob]

I love that because I think that that's a part of the story that is just, it remains subterranean almost, you

[Maureen Callahan]

know, his wish to die.

[Rob]

He didn't want his family benefiting from this. Now, of course, they are a very whitewashed version of Michael's story. One of the things that they aren't

[Maureen Callahan]

telling, I think the truth about in this movie is the true abuse that Michael and his siblings. But my understanding is that Michael suffered the gravest abuse because Michael was the golden child.

[Rob]

Michael was the most talented.

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael was the prodigy, God given talent. And Joe brutalized him, the father brutalized him. And I see you nodding along, Lori.

[Rob]

Well, I just want to, I just

[Maureen Callahan]

want to put this to you, Stacey.

[Rob]

The story that has sort of been

[Maureen Callahan]

the open secret in the music industry lo these many years was that Joe actually sodomized Michael, that Joe raped Michael

[Rob]

and that this was, this is part

[Maureen Callahan]

of a sort of like a, it's

[Rob]

a, it would explain a lot. It would explain a lot.

[Maureen Callahan]

Tell me what you know about that.

[Stacy Brown]

So I've heard that rumor for a long time. I knew Joe. I won't say that I knew him so well, but I knew him enough. Right? And the one thing that I always said about Joe, we all knew that, how badly he beat Michael, and. And. And it wasn't just Michael. You know, Latoya made her claims that in. In 1993. I always found it, being around them and certainly in many, many conversations I had with Joe, that I always found it difficult to believe that he would sexually assault his son. One of his sons. Right. And I said this during the trial in 2005, when it. When the trial first started, I was on NBC News, and I was asked by Dan Abrams, you know, what do I think? And I said this. I said, if he's anything like his brothers, if he's anything like his. His. His dad, then, you know, he. He's good. He's not, you know, he. He didn't do it. And I said that because they are womanizers. The Jackson brothers are notorious womanizers. And they got it from Joseph, who cheated on Catherine with other women, even in his older age. Now, the. Did I hear about what you. What you just mentioned? Yeah, I heard that.

[Rob]

How many people did you hear from that?

[Maureen Callahan]

From Stacey? And when did you begin hearing it?

[Stacy Brown]

So I did a. A treatment for a book for Ribi

[Rob]

and Ribi, the sister whose real name is Maureen.

[Stacy Brown]

Right.

[Rob]

Maureen Jackson.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right. Okay.

[Stacy Brown]

And during the writing of that. And this is back, I want to say 1997, 1998. During the writing of that, one of the things that she said to me was that she was angry with latoya's characterization of what happened. And I said, okay, so what. You know what happened? She said, he. You know, latoya said he raped us. She says that's not true. She said that he. And she used the word molested. Molested them. And I said, there's really no difference, is there? If you're a child, there's really no difference.

[Rob]

So Ribi said to you she was

[Maureen Callahan]

upset with latoya's book. Latoya said Joe raped them, the children.

[Rob]

Both the male and female children.

[Stacy Brown]

Right.

[Maureen Callahan]

And.

[Rob]

And Ribi said that's not true, because it was just.

[Maureen Callahan]

Mall.

[Stacy Brown]

Let me say this. Ribey was talking about the females.

[Martin Bashir]

She.

[Stacy Brown]

She mentioned nothing about the. It was. So she had a girlfriend who lived near them, and they were about 12 years old at the time. So this goes to your point, and this is where I first began to hear this. The girlfriend, 12 years old, rabies, about 12 years old at the time, 12, 13. Says, you know, because she confided in the girlfriend that Joseph had done these things to her. She says, you know, I think he's doing it to your little brother as well.

[Maureen Callahan]

The girlfriend said this to ribi?

[Stacy Brown]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

At 12 or 13.

[Stacy Brown]

Perfect.

[Rob]

Did Reb tell you her response to that?

[Stacy Brown]

So her response was that she considered strongly and she was talked out of it by her mother going to the authorities. And, you know, she, she was really reticent. I think more so her, her husband wanted her to talk about those things. I think when, when the family had therapy, I think she did try and talk about those things. And I think in therapy it was discouraged by the rest of the family because they had a family therapy circa 2001, 2002, and they were, they just didn't want her talking about it. Joseph was present, Catherine was present.

[Maureen Callahan]

The brother, he was present for the therapy.

[Stacy Brown]

Okay, so the therapy goes back to your other point. I'm sorry, but I just want you to know it goes back to the other point about Michael and his life. And it was around that time where they did these interventions and, and one particular intervention in New York stood out. It was December of 2001. And he told his family, I'll be dead in a year anyway. He wanted them to leave him alone.

[Rob]

You know, Stacey, the movie, I believe,

[Maureen Callahan]

from what I've heard and read, I

[Rob]

don't want to go see it in a theater because I don't want to

[Maureen Callahan]

contribute financially in any way to this,

[Rob]

to what is a fairy tale really. Here it seems as though they maybe make a nod to Joe as a, as a demanding patriarch, as something of a stern disciplinarian, but nothing in terms

[Maureen Callahan]

of the real, real, real abuse that it's been reported and alleged over the years rumored that he subjected those children to.

[Stacy Brown]

So I think that. So I saw a screening last month and then I went with a group on opening night and, and, and it was jam packed. And Michael, of course, you know, his fans are so into him. It's that they're, they are more than just fans. I guess they're the epitome of the word fanatic. Right. The cursing of Joe Jackson in that theater was so palpable, it was almost really Joe. And so he got. Yes, and so, so the character, you know, he picked up the belt and he was, he, he was cursed. I mean, they wasn't booing him, they were cursing him. It was the f Bomb. And you know, you sob, you're this, you're that. I mean, this, this was brutal. If any, if the other theaters where people may have seen this movie was anything like that. My goodness, what you're saying, it all meshes with what these fans were feeling and so they're really hearing it. I don't know, I, I don't, I, I don't totally agree that it's whitewashed. I think they went into just enough detail without again, gory, you know, because,

[Rob]

you know, though, Stacy, I would disagree

[Maureen Callahan]

with you because I think if the public knew the whole story, you know, they often say about pedophiles is that.

[Rob]

And, and Michael Jackson was acquitted. But, but you know, those of us who, who believe he did it, believe he did it with good reason, I think, is that they were highly sexualized and or abused at a very young age.

[Maureen Callahan]

That abuse often comes from someone very close to them.

[Rob]

I think if it was known if

[Maureen Callahan]

what a monster Joe Jackson really was,

[Rob]

I mean, they can't make that movie and do that box office if they're writing a movie about the patriarch of a family who was so hell bent on making his children world famous that

[Maureen Callahan]

he was abusing them to the extent,

[Rob]

you know, I mean, the sexual abuse probably would have happened either way, but. And then you have a matriarch who's saying, I'm not only looking the other way, but I've got a daughter is

[Maureen Callahan]

really the eldest daughter, is she not?

[Stacy Brown]

That's correct, yes.

[Rob]

So I've got it. My eldest daughter is coming to me and saying, I think we should go to the authorities. I think dad is doing this to the boys. And she says, no, you know, this

[Maureen Callahan]

is not a feel good Americana story anymore, Stacy.

[Stacy Brown]

And I think this is perhaps why they made it about the music. There's going to be this argument that, and you're well read in this, that listen, this is supposed to be a story about this man's life and we are leaving out large chunks and perhaps very important chunks. But I think that their mission was to, to make a movie that the fans and the fans only, that they cared about. They, I don't think they cared at all about the critics. I don't think they cared at all about the naysayers. I think this was about the fans and the fans only.

[Rob]

Well, I also think it's about Reach out now that Michael has been dead for so long. They, they got Leaving Neverland, the documentary, the two part documentary that aired on HBO in which Wade Robson and James Safechuck detailed their allegations against, against Michael for abusing them. They got that yanked off of the streaming service. And I think that this whole thing, it's, it's, it's to your point, it's not just about the money. And you can't make a movie about the music with the music, without the estate. Right. So we see how like the, the whole circle goes. It's about recasting Michael's legacy like Elvis. Michael was broke when he died. After he died, the estate became worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a moneymaker. Now we're back in the cultural conversation. We are rewriting history. And it's to the detriment of everybody, I think even those of us who loved Michael Jackson's music. I loved off the Wall. I loved Thriller. You know, do I want to believe this is true? No. Do I have no choice? I feel like I have no choice.

[Stacy Brown]

Again, people talk about a potential part two tackling this. I, I just can't see how they would be able to tackle this in the way that they would, you know, want to leave a good taste in everybody's mouth. Because there's no way to, to do it. Even if you are in the camp that says that he is innocent, you. You just can't. I don't see. I think maybe you can see it somebody else. Because I can't see them doing a movie that's going to endear Michael again to, you know, to the masses without. I mean, that's going to be a problem. It's too problematic. And I think that's what they encountered here. And they may not have made much of an effort. I'm not saying they made a big effort, I don't know, to put those things in there. But based on what we saw in this movie, you know, this was intended strictly to be as non controversial as possible.

[Rob]

Yes. I think the hagiographic really.

[Maureen Callahan]

Because I think it remains controversial for those of us who will keep banging the drum.

[Rob]

I think it's. I think if you do believe that

[Maureen Callahan]

the many boys who have come forward as young men or who. Or Jordan Chandler who came forward as a very, I think a teenager and

[Rob]

said, this happened to me, you know,

[Maureen Callahan]

I think a film like that and

[Rob]

a ratification of this is, is.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's a moral injury. It's a grave moral injury to them and to the culture and our understanding

[Rob]

of what childhood sexual abuse is.

[Maureen Callahan]

And I couldn't thank you more for coming on, Stacy. I mean, you really are, you are the guy, you are the man when

[Rob]

it comes To a Jackson, like, I would call you like a Jacksonian historian, you know.

[Stacy Brown]

Wow, you are, you know, listen, you, you are well versed in so much. I, I, I, I look at the Nerve and I, I check you out. I know what you did at the Post, you know, some of the things you did at the Post, but what you're doing here. Listen, you're, you're the, you're the historian. So.

[Rob]

Stacy, you're too kind. Thank you so much for coming on the Nerf and we certainly hope you will come back.

[Maureen Callahan]

This is obviously going to develop only further.

[Stacy Brown]

Absolutely.

[Rob]

Thanks, Stacy. Have a good one.

[Stacy Brown]

Thank you. All right, take care.

[Maureen Callahan]

You too.

[Rob]

Thank God.

[Maureen Callahan]

For journalists like Stacy Brown, it's not easy to say what is considered the unsayable. True though it may be. True though it may be.

[Rob]

And because every other media outlet is

[Maureen Callahan]

glossing over this, just gloss, you know,

[Rob]

the New York Times, I will say just a book note in case you want to read it. I did a column over at the Daily Mail addressing this last week, but I mean, today on the Nerve.

[Maureen Callahan]

We are going in deep with our multimedia prosecution.

[Rob]

The New York Times has run story after story after story about this movie. And yes, Michael's a little problematic, but you can't deny the talent. They ran an essay published on April

[Maureen Callahan]

25, again, one of many, many, many

[Rob]

glowing pieces called why I Still Love

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael Jackson, the author. I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly, ma'. Am. Nikisa Mumbi Moody, a woman. I find this striking. I find this striking because most women would kill any adult who put their hands on their child in such a manner.

[Rob]

Okay, here's a little bit from her op ed.

[Maureen Callahan]

She went to a screening inside the theater and I'm quoting.

[Rob]

There was exhilaration as the movie began, the audience cheering for every dance step and high pitched whoop in the film. It felt more than a celebration, it felt liberating. It was also a scene I could not have imagined happening two decades earlier. You don't say, Jackson, this is, this is where you get, you can tell this is bad writing. This graph is so clunky and it's

[Maureen Callahan]

just jackknifed in there.

[Rob]

And you can tell this is just my supposition. Her editor made a note and said,

[Maureen Callahan]

hey, we have to reference this trial somewhere.

[Rob]

We have to legally, like, for narrative purposes because it's so clunky and just laden down with, like, facts. And you can tell she, like, just

[Maureen Callahan]

jackknifed it in on deadline. Again, just my supposition. She Continues.

[Rob]

Jackson's career had bottomed out. Oh, my God, what a cliche. And what a poor cliche at that. Bottomed out? He's accused of raping children. Boys. Where do you think he was raping them? Bottomed out. After his 2005 trial for child molestation and other charges, he was found not guilty. But the sensationalized spectre of the accusations. That's some editorializing right there. She doesn't think he's guilty, I can tell you that much.

[Maureen Callahan]

Just my opinion.

[Rob]

Sensationalized spectre.

[Maureen Callahan]

You tell me.

[Rob]

You know, the media did everything they could to avoid this story. Fuck off. Of the accusation. Stuck. My experience that night at the premiere solidified for me that maybe it was

[Maureen Callahan]

okay to be an out and proud Jackson fan again. Why can't it be both? Why can't you be like, you know what? I love the guy's music. It was good. Later, Michael Jackson was terrible, terrible.

[Rob]

You know, when it was good, I loved it also. I know the guy did it.

[Maureen Callahan]

He's, you know, he's guilty.

[Rob]

He did it.

[Maureen Callahan]

He abused children again. He was found not. He was acquitted. But, you know, acquitted isn't innocent legally. There's a reason for that.

[Rob]

New York Times magazine this weekend, Michael Jackson's. Oh, I have it right here, actually,

[Maureen Callahan]

I pulled it out when I saw it this weekend because I. I couldn't believe it.

[Rob]

Here it is. It's teased on the COVID Michael, this is the art. Look at the art.

[Maureen Callahan]

The art tells you everything. The art.

[Rob]

They.

[Maureen Callahan]

They're using iconographic art. They've removed. They've literally removed the human being from it. They've removed the problematic human being. This is the illustrative art they've chosen.

[Rob]

New York Times magazine this weekend, Michael Jackson's makeover movie. Now, the reporter, the author of this

[Maureen Callahan]

piece, Mark Benelli, I know that name.

[Rob]

He's been around for a while.

[Maureen Callahan]

He writes that he obtained the original script in here.

[Rob]

I noted it where he wrote it.

[Maureen Callahan]

He obtained the original script, which Benelli writes, quote, went to great lengths to

[Rob]

exonerate Jackson, portraying him as the victim of a shakedown by the family of

[Maureen Callahan]

the first child to come forward, Jordan Chandler. That was the. That was the narrative the Jackson family was pushing for years. Michael's the. Michael's the victim. This. This globally famous wealthy man who is

[Rob]

surrounded by little children.

[Maureen Callahan]

By his own choice, only boys, never girls. He's the victim. He's the victim here.

[Rob]

New York Times headline on Monday, April 27, Michael fans danced in the aisles.

[Maureen Callahan]

Critics be damned.

[Rob]

Look at that headline, look at how vague it is.

[Maureen Callahan]

Critics be damned.

[Rob]

I call us truth tellers.

[Maureen Callahan]

No one, and I mean no one is talking about the trial facing the Michael Jackson estate this fall.

[Rob]

I hope they're living it up now on the back end of their Baffo box office opening weekend, nearly 100 million domestically, 200 globally. They're facing a trial this fall. Wade Robson, who got famous later in life and good for him, he worked as the choreographer for Brittany and Justin

[Maureen Callahan]

Timberlake at the heights of their careers. Wade and James Safechuck are suing the estate alleging grooming and longtime sexual abuse. Both men were in the 2019 HBO documentary Leaving Neverland, Neverland, Excuse me, which we just discussed with Stacy.

[Rob]

The estate successfully got that pulled from

[Maureen Callahan]

HBO streaming arm a legality, a deal that they made with Jordy Chandler, with whom Michael settled for a reported 23 to 25 million dollars.

[Rob]

Before we get into the nerve has recovered of the documentary that the estate has tried to snatch back from the

[Maureen Callahan]

culture, let's revisit this. Living with Michael Jackson. The Martin Bashir interview aired in 2003. Now I'm going to warn you guys again, a lot of this is graphic,

[Rob]

a lot of graphic descriptions, a lot

[Maureen Callahan]

of very uncomfortable things and body language to witness. But we have to do it. We have to do it. If what these boys survived means anything, we have to do it. Michael is sitting on a couch holding hands with 13 year old Gavin Arvizo, who has his head resting on Michael's shoulder. Michael is asked by Bashir if he thinks it's weird to have little kids sleeping in his bedroom. Here we go.

[Martin Bashir]

When people hear that children from other families have come and they've stayed in your house, they've stayed in your bedroom. Well, very few, but you know, some have and they say, is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man to be doing that? How do you respond to that?

[Wade Robson]

I feel sorry for them because that's judging someone who wants to really help people. Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone.

[Martin Bashir]

You really think that?

[Wade Robson]

Yeah, of course. You're taking the position that you use every single night that you go into you sleep and you're sharing it with another, you say, you can have my bed if you want, sleep in it, I'll sleep on the floor. It's yours. Always give the best to the company. You know, like to him. I said, because he was going to sleep on the floor. I said, no, you sleep in the bed. I'LL sleep on the floor.

[Martin Bashir]

But haven't you got a spare room or a spare house here where he could have stayed?

[Wade Robson]

Yeah, but no. Yes. We have guest units, but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me.

[Maureen Callahan]

He's lying. You can tell.

[Rob]

No. Yes. No.

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael Jackson doesn't have guest rooms. He doesn't have guest homes. Arvizo later accused Michael Jackson of abusing him. We will see his face again. Surviving Michael Jackson Leaving Neverland 2 premiered on YouTube on March 18, 2025, and in this sequel are parts of the original documentary. The Jackson estate, as discussed, has somewhat successfully disappeared. That documentary. But you know, the Internet is forever. We all know this. Here's Wade. He was one of the kindest, most loving, caring people I knew. And he also sexually abused me for seven years.

[Adrian McManus]

I met him on, on the set of the Pepsi commercial. That's James the movie coming out. The scope of what happened was like, you know, the thing I was most afraid of. Michael always said, you know, your life would be over if people knew.

[Maureen Callahan]

Both of those men sound extremely believable to me. Wade says he was one of the most loving people I ever knew. And he also abused me. And that's the mind fuck. That's how these abusers work. To this day. He can look back at him as a little kid and still be like, I loved him. And, and he. I know he loved me. And then James says, the thing that these abusers often do, if people knew, your life will be over. Your life will be over.

[Rob]

Not Michael's, Michael's life would have been over. And as discussed with Stacy, I do

[Maureen Callahan]

think he wanted to die. I think he was committing a very slow form of suicide. I think he knew. He knew that one day this would come for him posthumously, would be better than Michael on this earth. He dodged a bullet with that trial in 2005. But, you know, this is a guy

[Rob]

who saw the way the culture was

[Maureen Callahan]

going to go long before anybody else. You don't make an off the wall and then go on to make a thriller. If you don't have an internal antenna for what people want, what their appetites are, stuff they don't even know they want yet. Let's go to the Today show last

[Rob]

week, Craig Melvin Craiggers is back from vacay.

[Maureen Callahan]

So he's got Colman Domingo on his sofa now.

[Rob]

Coleman Domingo is playing Joe Jackson.

[Maureen Callahan]

Joe Jack, as we just discussed with Stacy, who's a monster.

[Rob]

A monster who?

[Maureen Callahan]

Everyone in the entertainment, listen, if I knew this like a decade ago, 15 years ago, people in the entertainment industry know that Joe Jackson was raping his kids, the boys and the girls.

[Rob]

But Craig's going to ask a very, very soft, pedaled question to Coleman about the decision to leave out the child

[Maureen Callahan]

abuse that the Jackson children suffered. Michael suffered the most because he was the most talented. So Joe had to al. He had to make sure his golden child performed and his golden child didn't get any ideas and stayed in line under Joe's control.

[Rob]

But what Craig is clearly, clearly referencing

[Maureen Callahan]

is like the beatings, the physical abuse,

[Rob]

and I'm putting beatings in quotes because it's like it's so far beyond getting punched or whipped, which is awful. It's awful. It's monstrous behavior. It is an entirely different thing when a father is raping his sons and people know and they're doing nothing because

[Maureen Callahan]

these kids are cash cows.

[Rob]

You want to know how it is Michael Jackson wound up carving his face and bleaching his skin? And how he hated himself so much despite his enormous once in a generation talent. Look no further. But here's what Craig and Coleman talk about.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go.

[Craig Melvin]

The film does stop in 1988.

[Coleman Domingo]

Yes.

[Craig Melvin]

Several years before the first child molestation allegations were made. And you know, we, we live in a, an environment now where we take survivors of sexual abuse. We take their stories very seriously. How do you reconcile your performance with, with that? I think the film, the film takes place, you know, from the 60s to 1988, so it does not go into the first allegations in like 2005. So basically we, we center it on the makings of Michael. So it's an intimate portrait of who Michael is.

[Maureen Callahan]

Intimate portrait. Boy, everybody got their talking points from the studio, from the network.

[Rob]

Everybody's very invested in retelling this story. And you know, Coleman sits there and he says, you know, this is all before the child molestation allegations. Coleman, we're not talking about that. We're. You want to talk about the making of Michael?

[Maureen Callahan]

Get real. Get real.

[Rob]

Let's look at who Michael is according

[Maureen Callahan]

to James Safechuck in the Leaving Neverland sequel. Very graphic. I'm going to warn you, if you have children anywhere around, you do not want them hearing this. You don't. It's bad, but we have to hear it. We have to. Here we go.

[Adrian McManus]

He would want me to suck on

[Maureen Callahan]

his nipples and then he would finish himself.

[Adrian McManus]

I was sleeping and I woke up and Michael said that he had performed

[Maureen Callahan]

oral sex on me while I was sleeping. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, if we're truly in this post. Me too. Era where we're supposed to believe all women. You name me a grown man

[James Manley]

who

[Maureen Callahan]

would talk about that in detail publicly unless they truly felt they had to. I just don't think there's any amount of money that would be worth it. Wade Robson is going to talk about what he alleges Michael Jackson did to him as a little boy. And then after Wade, you're going to hear James Manley, who is the nominative determinism. Right. James Manley, who is the lawyer for both Wade and James explaining, you know, always the.

[Rob]

The pushback was like, well, how could this have gone on for so long?

[Maureen Callahan]

There's no way this could be true.

[Rob]

Somebody would have seen something.

[Maureen Callahan]

Surely somebody would have said something, you

[Rob]

know, but we need James to push

[Maureen Callahan]

back on that stuff. Here we go. I guess it sort of became a routine masturbating. The oral sex seven.

[James Manley]

It's two little boys and I believe many other children who were savaged by a pedophile. But worse, there was a massive group of people and money behind Mr. Jackson who allowed this to occur.

[Rob]

Exactly right.

[Maureen Callahan]

And there is a massive amount of people and corporations, a movie studio, Lionsgate, who have a ton invested in making sure that Michael Jackson goes back to being your friendly neighborhood spider man so they can make even more money.

[Rob]

And as Stacy said, so the Jacksons

[Maureen Callahan]

can re enter the culture as as important people as prominent, which is never going to happen.

[Rob]

Aside from Janet.

[Maureen Callahan]

Jafar Jackson is obviously a star, but he had to do it by playing his uncle. You know what I mean? The culture really has moved on now. That said, let's look at the View. The View, which for far too long,

[Rob]

as I said, they're like a racehorse

[Maureen Callahan]

we kept in the stable. And like we wouldn't let the nerve

[Rob]

fully go with the View because we had our eyes over here at the Today show. View, you're coming in for it. We're beginning. We're beginning spring. It's new beginnings. It's time for the View to get its daily walloping over at the Nerf.

[Maureen Callahan]

Or at least weekly. You know, I wouldn't subject you guys to like daily. That would be terrible.

[Rob]

Okay, here is Whoopi Goldberg, who is the moderator. Okay, so she's the big cheese Whoopi of It's not rape. Rape. Go see an earlier nerve.

[Maureen Callahan]

Her defense of Roman polanski raping a 13 year old girl. 12 year old girl.

[Rob]

Disgusting. Whoopi. And America's preeminent race hustler. In this corner, Sunny Hostin now, when you hear Sunny talk about this in

[Maureen Callahan]

her very serious former federal prosecutor voice, where she just maintains even modulation because we're removing all emotion from this, you tell me, if this had been a white male pop star with this amount of money and this amount of fame, abusing small black boys sexually for decades

[Rob]

while everybody else looked the entire way, would we have any quarter for excusing this, let alone propping up this movie? No, no, but let's listen to Sonny and let's listen to Whoopi, like, set it up.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's like, is this something we should be worried about? Here we go.

[Sunny Hostin]

Are you planning to see it? I mean, it says, you know, do you think. Will people think it's a glaring omission? Not if they know that it's not a documentary. And it's also covering the beginnings. Well, I think it's, you know, I think what is important to know about the film is that the director, Antoine Fuqua, did in his first draft, did in his first draft include the molestation allegations, the trial which he was found not guilty of, and some of the accusers that came out after his death. But because of this legal settlement with one of the accusers, he had to cut those parts and reshot $15 million worth of film.

[Rob]

Not the point, Sunny. Not the point.

[Angie Hicks (repeat)]

You know what?

[Rob]

You know, you know what I'm saying when I say, like, everybody's got their talking points.

[Maureen Callahan]

She's a former federal prosecutor. She should be outraged. Should be outraged.

[Rob]

60 Minutes Australia what the Maid Saw

[Maureen Callahan]

first aired in 2019. We're going to hear from a woman named Adrian. Excuse me, McManus, who worked as Michael Jackson's maid from 1990 to 1994. The first soundbite we're going to hear is her horror upon realizing that Michael knew that she knew. She hadn't said a word, but that she knew what he was doing with all those little boys at the Neverland Ranch. Here we go.

[Adrian McManus]

I got a call from him. He called me on Mother's Day. It was a Sunday morning at my home. He said, I want to ask you something. And I said, yeah, okay. And I kid you not. He asked me about eight times, what do you know? And I said, Mr. Jackson, I don't know what you want me to tell you. What do you know, Adrienne?

[Coleman Domingo]

That was the question. What do you know?

[Adrian McManus]

What do you know? I was starting to get really, really frightened.

[Maureen Callahan]

I believe her. There are a couple of reasons why. Number one, Michael Jackson's real voice in real life, it Wasn't this high pitched. It was very deep. He was a scary guy. He was a scary guy who could bully. And when he's bullying her, what do you know? What do you know? What do you know? And she says, I don't know what you want me to tell you, Mr. Jackson? And she says, she got SC.

[Rob]

This is why nobody ever said a peep in.

[Maureen Callahan]

In Diddy's world, you know, people always say, why didn't, like, a hairdresser come forward or like a maid or someone?

[Rob]

Those are the last people who are going to do it. They don't have nearly the money to protect themselves from thugs like that. They know. They know what goes on at that level in those worlds when there's that much money at stake, when that many people are relying on the cash cow. Back to the View. Alyssa is torn. She's torn, you guys.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go.

[Alyssa]

I struggled with that with the Broadway show too, which is excellent. And if you love Michael Jackson's music, like he's unrivaled as a pop icon, you want to enjoy those songs. And I wrestle with it because I believe the allegations, I believe the people who came forward. But I think the fact that it's stopping before that you're talking about what made him him, the impact he had on culture, I think that works. It would bother me far more if it came up to modern times and just pretended that didn't happen.

[Rob]

Oh, okay. So we're just. We're just going to. We can just slice that out of the discussion because the movie ends at a certain date. So let's just slice that out. Because a mind like Alyssa's can't hold

[Maureen Callahan]

two competing thoughts at the same time,

[Rob]

which is the very definition of intelligence. You can hold two competing thoughts in

[Maureen Callahan]

your brain at the same time.

[Rob]

And by the way, that is also a lie. Alyssa. This mov isn't about what really made

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael Jackson Michael Jackson. No.

[Rob]

To do that, you'd have to acknowledge

[Maureen Callahan]

the abuse that Joe Jackson put those children through.

[Rob]

It's incredible that any one of them survived it. It truly is. And I'm not in any way exonerating

[Maureen Callahan]

Michael Jackson from what I am sure he did. Just my opinion.

[Rob]

I absolutely believe it.

[Maureen Callahan]

We're going to get into it again on another nerve. We don't have nearly enough time.

[Rob]

Neverland Ranch. You know, he's Peter Pan. Foreign.

[Maureen Callahan]

Adrian from Australia's 60 Minutes. This is accompanied by home video.

[Sunny Hostin]

Her.

[Maureen Callahan]

Her recounting of this is accompanied by home video of Michael with little boys at his house. Again, this is very graphic, but it's necessary. Here we go.

[Adrian McManus]

I noticed that there were a lot of little boys, that's all that would hang around there. You wouldn't see like little girls. And I knew the little boys were there. When they would arrive, they would put their clothes in the suitcase. In a suitcase in his room. I started realizing, thinking, wondering when he was taking baths with him. They were sleeping in his bed.

[Coleman Domingo]

But there's sleeping and there's sleeping. Yeah, you're talking about the worst kind of sleeping with children.

[Adrian McManus]

Yes, I know the truth. I was there. And when I would go in the next day, there were little boys underwears either on the floor with Michaels or they were in the Jacuzzi.

[Coleman Domingo]

So you were suspicious as soon as you saw that?

[Adrian McManus]

Yeah, I got suspended. Suspicious. And then I would find underwears also in his bed. I did find underwears that were minch briefs in the walk in closet. And they were, and I don't like to say this, they were like crunchy hard with yellow stains all over.

[Maureen Callahan]

If you're listening to this and not watching it, I would encourage you to go watch that portion of Adrian's interview, which is accompanied by footage from Michael Jackson's bedroom. This I would bet, maybe came from the lapd, who raided that house eventually and found a stash of child pornography. But what's telling about the. The home movie footage of Michael's estate is the Jacuzzi in which Adrian says he was abusing young boys has a bird of prey atop its fountain. And on Michael's bed, which is a small bed for a big guy. Michael Jackson was a big guy. You know, he tried to make himself small, to seem harmless, but like physically he was imposing. And on that, on Michael Jackson's bed, a middle aged man, are stuffed animals like Disney characters, their stuffed pillows multiple with the face of Peter Pan.

[Rob]

Here's the View's useless. Sarah Haynes. It's called the View because you're supposed to have a view, you're supposed to be opinionated. But Sarah always sees both sides. Both sides, even when it comes to serial child predation and sexual abuse, we see both sides.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go.

[Alyssa]

I think people seek like moral absolutes in life and it's very hard to reconcile that this man was a genius, possibly a prodigy, but also there were serious sexual allegations that I watched Leaving Neverland. And everyone has to come to terms with their own feelings on that because he wasn't convicted in court. I believe both things can exist.

[Rob]

Okay, listen, can you get, can you guys just get someone Anyone who like actually cracks a book or reads or has some kind of deep knowledge of the culture and history. For example, over the weekend I was reading a book review in the Wall Street Journal of a biography of Samuel Pepys, the famous British diarist. And it turns out that that guy was a sexual menace for the ages, okay? It's been going on since the dawn of human history. Michael Jackson isn't some rarefied example of this shit. Can we all just grow the fuck up? Here's the maid talking about underwear and Vaseline. Sarah.

[Adrian McManus]

I didn't know who they belonged to because the little boys started wearing Michael's briefs and they would leave their underwears inside his drawer.

[Coleman Domingo]

The more Adrian saw, the more convinced she was that Michael Jackson was a predator. A feeling she says was shared by other staff at Neverland.

[Adrian McManus]

There was a lot of Vaseline at Neverland. Sometimes it was found in the golf carts when Mr. Jackson would take off with the boys.

[Coleman Domingo]

Vaseline?

[Adrian McManus]

Yeah, Vaseline. And there was a lot of Vaseline in Michael's bedroom. It was actually all over the ranch.

[Coleman Domingo]

Is there possibly an innocent explanation for that?

[Adrian McManus]

I don't think so.

[Maureen Callahan]

Speaking for us all. Speaking for us all.

[Rob]

And you know, this story is viable and relevant because Sean Combs is going

[Maureen Callahan]

to get out soon.

[Rob]

And you know the Vaseline Flash forward

[Maureen Callahan]

circa now Baby oil. The raid on Neverland Ranch, which I like, it kills me to even call it that. That raid followed allegations brought by a 12 year old cancer patient, a boy who said that Michael Jackson fed him booze and pills. This kid was probably on chemo, booze and pills at Neverland Ranch. We're going to hear from Detective Ruby Wolf, who was part of the team of law enforcement raiding Michael Jackson's ranch and bedroom. Here she is in finding Neverland. And we are actually going to see more of Michael's bedroom, by the way, there's video of law enforcement having to drill the door to his bedroom open because clearly not a single staffer in that house, not a single individual aside from Michael Jackson had a key to that bedroom, which not for nothing is a fire hazard. Anyway, here is Ruby.

[Detective Ruby Wolf]

We asked the housekeeper, where's the bedroom? That's when we were told no one was permitted into his bedroom and nobody had a key for his bedroom.

[Maureen Callahan]

The drilling,

[Detective Ruby Wolf]

We were able to make entry and when we walked in, it was a mess. Papers, clothes covering the whole floor. I found some pepperoni sausages that were just thrown in there. I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is filthy. Drawers weren't closed. Right. You know, I'm sure everyone has a junk drawer. There were a lot of junk drawers. If you would just stuff thrown all over. In the area where the grand piano was, that's where I located a briefcase, opened it up and there were some magazines with the pornographic materials in them. So that was a significant item because it supported what Gavin said.

[Cheryl Hines]

You know, in that moment.

[Detective Ruby Wolf]

Your whole point of the investigation is to seek the truth. When you talk about an innocent child who's been taken advantage of, that's going to stir anger in anyone. And. And. I think that Gavin was very courageous to be able to come forward and say what happened.

[Maureen Callahan]

She's alluding to child porn because she says that all supported what Gavin was saying. And we see Gavin here. That's the same Gavin we met in the Martin Bashir interview, who like many victims, child victims, is defending his abuser, Latoya Jackson. In the book that Stacy and I were referencing growing up in the Jackson family, page 83, quote, he, meaning Michael, doesn't keep just papers and books lying around. Michael saves everything, and I do mean everything. Sweetly sentimental. He keeps family members photographs and mementos such as all of my report cards and his young nieces and nephews first shoes, first outfits, even their first soiled diapers. Among his very personal souvenirs is his own nose cartilage extracted during surgery. This is one of the most disturbed minds I've ever read about, and I've read a lot. I've written about a lot of disturbed minds.

[Rob]

His own daughter thinks he's guilty.

[Maureen Callahan]

Paris Jackson taking to Instagram very recently to disown this film. Here we go.

[Paris Jackson]

The film panders to a very specific section of my dad's fandom that still lives in the fantasy. And they're gonna be happy with it. The thing about these biopics is they're. It's Hollywood.

[Rob]

So this is, this is, it's.

[Paris Jackson]

It's fantasy land. It's not real, but it's sold to you as real. And a lot of sugar coated, like the narrative is being controlled and there's a lot of inaccuracy and there's a lot of just full blown eyes.

[Maureen Callahan]

You can watch the, the longer portion of that on her Instagram. But the Daily Mail has very, very good sourcing. It's in a piece that's up available right now saying that Paris believes her father is guilty of abusing these boys sexually.

[Rob]

Let's look at Entertainment Tonight's extensive coverage

[Maureen Callahan]

of this film, this.

[Rob]

That aired leading up to the movie's Release day on Friday, April 24. I refuse to call this movie a biopic. I do.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's a fantasy.

[Rob]

It's a fucking fairy tale.

[Maureen Callahan]

Sample questions. How long were you in hair and makeup? What scene or moment while filming made you feel the most emotional?

[Rob]

And putting more top spin on that banality, which performance was the most emotional for you?

[Maureen Callahan]

Here is Jafar Jackson, who plays his uncle. And talk about a family sickness. I mean, the Kennedys are sick. We're getting to it in C block. The Jackson family is among America's sickest, sickest. My opinion, Jafar Jackson on playing his

[Rob]

uncle, a child predator, great with a tune, did the moonwalk, invented it, whatever. I think Michael, even in a later

[Maureen Callahan]

interview, another interview that we're going to discuss at a later point, Michael admits he stole the moonwalk.

[Rob]

You know, he stole it, refined it, whatever.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay.

[Rob]

Here's Jafar with Entertainment Tonight's Kevin Frazier at a Michael Jackson interview. Michael Jackson exhibit, excuse me, in Berlin. And Kevin saying to Jafar, hey, man, this movie's a piece of hot. This is just the beginning for you. Just the beginning for you. Your stars on the rise. Playing a child predator.

[Maureen Callahan]

You're playing a pedophile.

[Rob]

Now, of course, we didn't get to that in this movie. This is only part one. Can't tell the whole story. Can't give it all away. No, you gotta.

[Maureen Callahan]

Gotta make people want to know what's coming up. Anyway, here's Kevin telling Jafar what a bright future he's got and asking a

[Rob]

question for the ages.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go.

[James Manley]

Now, this is. This movie is just the beginning.

[Stacy Brown]

So what will we see in the

[Maureen Callahan]

next phase of this?

[Rob]

Kevin, are you for real? What are we going to see in the next phase of this? There's only one story to tell, my man. I don't think you want the answer to that. Coming up, your feedback. See you in a minute.

[Maureen Callahan]

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[Rob]

And for a limited time, Nerve listeners

[Maureen Callahan]

get up to 25% off their entire order.

[Rob]

Just head to cowboycolostrum.com Maureen and use code MAUREEN at checkout.

[Maureen Callahan]

That's 25% off when you use code

[Rob]

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[Angie Hicks (repeat)]

directed hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. For decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Angie, the one you trust to find the the ones you trust. Find a pro for your [e-mail]

[Rob]

we are back.

[Maureen Callahan]

It is time for the best part

[Rob]

of every Nerve Troublemaker feedback.

[Maureen Callahan]

But first we have a very exciting announcement. We're excited anyway, but we think you will be too.

[Rob]

The Nerve is going live for our

[Maureen Callahan]

first live stream of the Met Gala,

[Rob]

the 76th annual Met Gala, but the first Met Gala to be presented to us by Amazon Prime Whole Foods next Monday.

[Maureen Callahan]

We begin May 4, 8pm Eastern. Some of your very favorite troublemakers will

[Rob]

be in the house. And trust me when I tell you, we at Team Nerve have been brainstorming about props, sight gags, audio, who we're covering, how we're covering it, and we

[Maureen Callahan]

have been having more fun than anyone has a right to have at work.

[Rob]

But we don't even consider this work

[Maureen Callahan]

because we love the Nerve so much

[Rob]

and we love bringing you the kind

[Maureen Callahan]

of unhinged content frankly, we hope you're coming for.

[Rob]

So check out the Nerve's Instagram page

[Maureen Callahan]

at the Nerve show for more details. I will be posting on my own

[Rob]

page as well, but yes, next Monday, 8pm ET. Now this weekend was also a big anniversary for me.

[Maureen Callahan]

It wasn't just that the Nerve turned one last week, but this weekend marked the first anniversary of my inaugural space flight.

[Rob]

You know I don't like to brag

[Maureen Callahan]

about this, but yes, I too am an astronaut.

[Rob]

Gail was interviewed by Page Six at

[Maureen Callahan]

an event over the weekend.

[Rob]

I Believe. And she said that she had.

[Maureen Callahan]

I have to pull this up from Sophie over at Team Nerve, who texted

[Rob]

it to me this morning. The lovely Sophie, she's an astronaut. And I'm reading from the item. Gayle King is under no illusions that her 10 minute jaunt on the Blue Origin mission alongside.

[Maureen Callahan]

We know who she was alongside, is

[Rob]

in any way comparable to the Artemis

[Maureen Callahan]

2's recent trip to see the moon.

[Rob]

Quote, they are the true astronauts. Gail told page6.com's Nikki Gossett.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, my gosh, she's at the time 100 gala.

[Rob]

The most influential people. Would you believe Dakota Johnson was at that thing? Get real. Okay. Quote, it was such a moment for all of us to see what they did. King added, I'm not putting myself in that category. You're not? Are you sure? Because here's Gail talking about Blue Origin and demanding that we, all of us out here, we're not supposed to call it a ride. No, that's sexist.

[Maureen Callahan]

That's sexist.

[Rob]

And by the way, there's more. This is Gail, just one year ago. Okay, April 15, 2025. A day that will live in infamy.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go.

[Sunny Hostin]

Have you been?

[Maureen Callahan]

Have you been?

[Sunny Hostin]

If you've been and you still feel

[Maureen Callahan]

that way after you come back, please, let's have a conversation. Number three, please don't call it a ride. That is not a friggin ride.

[Rob]

Gail. Gail, I too have been. I'm totally open to having a conversation about the ride I took with Megan Kelly and with Sarah, the hairstylist who, who was Lauren Sanchez. I'm totally open to it. Let's have a chat. You know, it's a very small club. We belong to Gail. I mean, I understand there may be a conflict of interest because we are

[Maureen Callahan]

also actively searching for Steadman's remains.

[Rob]

You are among our prime suspects, along with Oprah. But I would like to think we

[Maureen Callahan]

could put that aside. We could put that aside as women of space. Outer space.

[Rob]

Now, this was one other thing that

[Maureen Callahan]

Marlena caught over the weekend and she called me and we were cracking up over it.

[Rob]

You know how if you go on the YouTube channel and it will say

[Maureen Callahan]

how long, how long ago or how recently any given segment was published on the channel.

[Rob]

Like, oh, like this segment on, you know, Michael Jackson. It went up like five hours ago. There was one on our channel, an episode of the Nerve, and they dated

[Maureen Callahan]

it as going up 56 years ago.

[Rob]

50? I wasn't even born 56 years ago. So like I said to her, are we like, is it like Jack Nicholson in the Shining? Can we show this portrait, you know,

[Maureen Callahan]

at the end of the Shining?

[Rob]

You know, Jack Nicholson? We wind up seeing him in one of the photos behind the bar of like all the people from like the 1930s. Like, he's always been there. Like, was he always there? Like, how did he get there? That's. I feel like is, did. Is something happening in the space time

[Maureen Callahan]

continuum with the Nerve?

[Rob]

Like, did something happen to us? Did we, did we piss off the wrong person? Anyone?

[Maureen Callahan]

If anything happens to the Nerve or to your humble troublemaker in chief, Gail and Oprah. Gail and Oprah.

[Rob]

Hi, Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

My wife and I love your podcast. Thank. Thanks, Phil.

[Rob]

I think you guys have written before the headline.

[Maureen Callahan]

Mike Vrable, if I'm saying his name right, or Vrabel and Diana Rossini.

[Rob]

Have you been following the football coach

[Maureen Callahan]

and sports commentator affairs?

[Rob]

Yes.

[Maureen Callahan]

Apparently this has been going on for several years. Oh, there's a lot more to this story. Phil thinks so. I think so too.

[Rob]

Check it out if you have a chance. We have added this to our agenda

[Maureen Callahan]

for Bill from Brooklyn's next appearance.

[Rob]

We've got several things we need Bill

[Maureen Callahan]

to weigh in on, explain to us, etc.

[Rob]

Troublemakers coming out against Jon Hamm. So you know the Criterion Closet, the Criterion Collection, which is that like very

[Maureen Callahan]

curated collection of film of like, what, what is considered like, cinema, you know, foreign and domestic art house, groundbreaking, independent, all of it. I'm a huge fan of the Criterion Collection. I have a subscription. I can think of nothing that would be more fun than to do one of those segments like, go get it. Get a chance to be in the Criterion Collection and, and pick like your five movies. So Jon Hamm, Melanie says it's okay

[Rob]

to use your name. Troublemaker Melanie went into the esteemed Criterion Closet and out came, as of 6pm Friday, at least five commenters regarding his felonious frat fuckery Melanie. Love the alliteration.

[Maureen Callahan]

Love it.

[Rob]

High culture, low culture. Troublemakers are everywhere.

[Maureen Callahan]

And that's what makes troublemakers untouchable.

[Rob]

Dear Maureen, Love Story, Lovebirds is the headline. I wonder how many other troublemakers caught this. I certainly did not. In the final frames of Love Story,

[Maureen Callahan]

episode nine, beginning at about 54 minutes as they pan out over the ocean, there are two seabirds, almost imperceptible, flying over it. Were these supposed to represent John and Carolyn? Flying free, I would bet. So Troublemaker C. That, that's a great catch. It's, you know what, and that's really fucked up. Of the filmmakers, there was nothing. I've said it many times before, but

[Rob]

I also want to add, there's a great piece on the Daily Mail. Plus, it's an interview with one of Carolyn's oldest, closest friends, a designer she

[Maureen Callahan]

met at Calvin Klein named Gordon Henderson. Now, Gordon had some very, very interesting things to say about Carolyn. And I think. I think some of Carolyn's friends are, like, shiving her.

[Rob]

You know, they feel like enough time has elapsed. I. One of her friends who spoke to me for Ask not told me it took her a minute to really decide to do it. She remains anonymous, but because Carolyn was

[Maureen Callahan]

such a powerful presence that she feared Carolyn even in death. This is a very smart, sophisticated, accomplished, talented, bright woman.

[Rob]

But that's the kind of force, the powerful personality Carolyn Bessette had.

[Maureen Callahan]

And so Gordon Henderson let Carolyn.

[Rob]

He said she crashed with him, but

[Maureen Callahan]

really she lived with him rent free for six months. He had a very fashionable address in downtown New York. And once she got with John, she became the entitlement was through the roof. He came home one time to find clothes that he had bought on a trip, like to Japan or something. A real shop that he had done thoughtfully. All those clothes were on the floor. They had been unpacked from his expensive luggage that he had just purchased because she needed that luggage. She was taking it on a trip to Hyannis with the Kennedys.

[Rob]

So not enough.

[Maureen Callahan]

You're living with a guy rent free and probably not even paying for a meal. You steal his stuff, his expensive stuff while he's away. He also said that something that she and John would do to him very often. You're not going to believe this. Like, these two were terrible. And it's a good thing they never had kids. They would leave their dog Friday in front of Gordon's apartment door, like, while Gordon was out at work for hours or whatever, unannounced. And Gordon would come home and find this poor dog who had been there for hours without food or water or anything, a bathroom break

[Rob]

just there. And that was Gordon's way of knowing

[Maureen Callahan]

that Jean and Carolyn had taken off

[Rob]

for the weekend or however long they were gone for. Up on the Cape, you know, with the Kennedys and, you know, it's his job to watch their dog for free. Keep lionizing these. Keep at it. Okay. Dear Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, you may have seen this, but here's the link.

[Rob]

So much of what passes for celebrity

[Maureen Callahan]

beauty journalism, like, hey, Demi Moore, what are the products you use?

[Rob]

You know, Cindy Crawford's got, like, a

[Maureen Callahan]

infomercial that runs over the weekends.

[Rob]

Like, hey, it's meaningful beauty. It's my special skincare line I developed with my high class, expensive Beverly Hills dermatologist. And every woman in America can also look like me. You can't, okay? Not unless you have a private nutritionist, a private trainer, and a plastic surgeon on speed dial.

[Maureen Callahan]

That's how Cindy Crawford looks.

[Rob]

Like that. I also suspect I have no inside knowledge of such. But I do suspect Cindy Crawford is

[Maureen Callahan]

also taking human growth hormone, which has been very popular in Hollywood for a very long time because it retards the physical aging process. But one of the side effects of HDH is if you are feminine, it will make you look masculine. And Cindy Crawford looks really masculine.

[Rob]

She is aged in a very masculine manner. The article is a promotional stint, of course. This troublemaker Britchick writes.

[Maureen Callahan]

But the excuses Demi deems to convey,

[Rob]

especially about her cheekbones.

[Maureen Callahan]

Those are either surgical implants or they are done with filler. Look at photos of Demi Moore as a young woman. She did not have cheekbones. She did not have much in the way of facial bone structure. She did not.

[Rob]

And her recipe for a healthy and vibrant life is about being curious. It's bs. Stop it right now. You've been under the knife more times this troublemaker says, than a hooker has been under Bill Maher. Sorry, Marlena. That is the actual. Aside from troublemaker Britchick, Marlena. Also, I just want to say the algorithm knows that I am involved with

[Maureen Callahan]

the Nerve because into it the other day came rumor Willis Rumer Willis, disturbed young woman. Wonder how she got that way, showing her face and looking like it.

[Rob]

It had like just like a.

[Maureen Callahan]

One major slick of Vaseline over it.

[Rob]

And it was.

[Maureen Callahan]

The skin was so aggravated and she was writing about how she picks her skin on her face and it's like a lifelong compulsion that she's still. She's still engaging in it. That's a disturbed person. That's you.

[Rob]

I Rob and I say this to

[Maureen Callahan]

each other all the time. Thank whoever your God is every day that you weren't born to famous people.

[Rob]

Oh my God, Maureen, you had me at Jon Hamm. It's a theme. Gorgeous but grotesque. Yes, yes, yes. At the end of your first birthday episode, you and Marlena joked about Oprah and Gail. This troublemaker thinks that we, meaning Marlena and I, are more akin to Betty and Veronica. Good and evil, depending on who's wanting what. I love that.

[Maureen Callahan]

Thank you. Our final email today.

[Rob]

Hi Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

Happy birthday to the Nerve.

[Rob]

My son is constantly watching Blackish and

[Maureen Callahan]

I always like a good troublemaker. Like a good troublemaker. Troublemaker D I always want to hit the pause button and tell him this is a man writing to us.

[Rob]

By the way that woman exfoliates in public. Never ever choose such a woman.

[Maureen Callahan]

I never do, Troublemaker D writes. But someday his son, he says, is a little too young to be a troublemaker. But when the time comes, he'll be a mo bro, raising him right.

[Rob]

Troublemaker D Am I a masochist for enjoying Marlena's punishment? I don't know, Troublemaker D I forget

[Maureen Callahan]

what her punishment even was.

[Rob]

And finally, our Austin based troublemaker says,

[Maureen Callahan]

I think we need two new shirts for Nerve Merch.

[Rob]

One that says get out and the other that says fuck all the way off. Keep your feedback coming. Email me at maureenvilmakeremedia.com or DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, writer, or

[Maureen Callahan]

at the Nerve show. Remember to subscribe to the Nerve Substack. That is our weekly email.

[Rob]

It's all of the content we couldn't

[Maureen Callahan]

get into the show, plus bonus stuff.

[Rob]

My recommendations Troublemaker Talk. Just a ton of great stuff.

[Maureen Callahan]

Go over to thenerveshow.com the mothership, our website. You will see a prompt. Would you like to subscribe to the Nerve Substack? Please do. Really, why else are you on this earth?

[Rob]

Then you'll have an option to subscribe

[Maureen Callahan]

and we encourage you if you can. Please do. It's only five bucks a month and

[Rob]

otherwise it helps the show grow.

[Maureen Callahan]

You know, in addition, I should say rather, in addition, it helps the show to grow.

[Rob]

And another friendly reminder, if you would like to enter the Nerves first contest to win a signed copy of Rob's new novel, his dishy, scandalous showbiz novel

[Maureen Callahan]

based on his time hosting a morning show over on cable tv. Send in your favorite celebrity scandal of all time. It could be Marilyn Monroe and jfk. It could be Anthony and Cleopatra.

[Rob]

It could be Brad and Angie. Send it in. Tell us why.

[Maureen Callahan]

It could even be Marlena snuck this in. Marlena, it is time for another intervention.

[Rob]

She said it could even be producer

[Maureen Callahan]

Marlena and Bill Maher secretly meeting in the woodshed.

[Rob]

Listen, if you must hook up with him, have at it. Just do not be foul the woodshed, okay? I do not want to have to desecrate the woodshed with a blue light and luminol, okay? As it is, we're trying to keep Ryan Reynolds from starting fires in that thing. Up to you guys. Up to you. Email emily lmaycare media.com with your favorite

[Maureen Callahan]

celebrity scandal NY to enter for one of five signed copies of Rob's new book. We will announce the winners on a future nerve.

[Rob]

Up next, another.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh my God. You know, I'm happy to see that Ask not has a long tail. Not long enough apparently, because there is

[Rob]

yet another Kennedy wife who has yet

[Maureen Callahan]

to get the memo. And even as we show you you this video footage that will make you laugh and cry at the same time.

[Rob]

She's not going anywhere. See you in a minute. A lot of skincare companies out there

[Maureen Callahan]

are purporting to sell wholesome natural products. The trouble is, most of the big names out there are owned by mega corporations and private equity firms that prioritize profit over quality. Fortunately, one company is doing things differently and that is Van Man. They started the tallow trend a few years back with their grass fed tallow moisturizers and they have been crushing it ever since. Tallow makes for a great moisturizer because the fatty acids in tallow are nearly identical to the oils in our own skin so our bodies actually recognize it. One use and you will feel the difference. And I can tell you I have tried their moisturizer and their lip balm. I love them both. This is true. Plus, there are no chemicals, no filler. And a little of this product goes a long way, making it very economical. Tallow balm isn't just a moisturizer. It can also replace your night cream

[Rob]

as discussed, wrinkle cream, even Neosporin and diaper balm. It's powerful enough to heal the skin, yet safe enough to spread on your toast.

[Maureen Callahan]

These are real ingredients. How many other companies can say that? If you are ready to ditch the corporate chemicals, go to Vanman Shop Maureen and use code Maureen for 15% off your first order. That's Maureen for 15% off your 1st order.

[Rob]

Van Man.

[Maureen Callahan]

Real ingredients, no exceptions.

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[Rob]

Why have I asked my H Vac

[Angie Hicks (repeat)]

guy I found on angie.com to change

[Rob]

my grandpa's trachea tube?

[Angie Hicks (repeat)]

I was so amazed at how we replaced our air ducts. I knew I could Trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.

[Rob]

I think we should call a doctor,

[Angie Hicks]

Angie, the one you trust to find

[James Manley]

the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]

[Maureen Callahan]

before we get into the video of this particular alpha male Kennedy and his clearly long suffering wife that was taken over the weekend as the ballroom at the Washington Hilton was being evacuated after an active shooting shooter was shot by law enforcement and Secret Service. I just want to talk a little bit about how that could have happened because I've been to that dinner in the past several years. I was not there this weekend. I had friends who were there and were, I mean, really shaken up, understandably so. But the media coverage I have been seeing by the very same media, by

[Rob]

the very same journalists who are in

[Maureen Callahan]

that ballroom, they keep asking, like, how could this have happened? How could this have happened?

[Rob]

And I just want to say exactly

[Maureen Callahan]

how this could have happened.

[Rob]

Like, I just want to say, and

[Maureen Callahan]

this is how it happened. This is how it happened. In the years I have gone to that event, I have been booked into that same hotel, the Washington Hilton, for expediency, right?

[Rob]

You go, you go from your room, you take the elevator down to the

[Maureen Callahan]

ballroom, you go to the dinner. If you want to be done at the end of the night, you're back

[Rob]

in your room in five minutes flat. That hotel is enormous.

[Maureen Callahan]

Every time I have checked into that hotel for that, for that gala, the only thing they ask me for is

[Rob]

just like when you check into any

[Maureen Callahan]

hotel, ID and your credit card, there's no security there. Only, only in the hours leading up to the event do they establish a perimeter and do they have security.

[Rob]

But I've always found it incredibly lax.

[Maureen Callahan]

And it always blew my mind that anybody in the hours and days leading up to that event where the President of the United States and top administration officials will be for hours, could check into that hotel and have complete access. You really could. As we see, they did. And I don't see how that hotel can ever host that event again. An event like that needs to be held at a site where nobody stays there indefinitely based on how much money they spend. It needs to be a closed location with only entrance and egress. And it's completely surrounded by security.

[Rob]

And Secret Service has done background checks on everybody who's coming.

[Maureen Callahan]

Do you know what I'm saying? This was just a matter of time. And it was, it's a real near miss that nothing. It could have been a lot worse. It could have been a lot worse.

[Rob]

Now onto the the thing that just.

[Maureen Callahan]

You cannot help but laugh. You cannot help but laugh.

[Rob]

After they got Trump out, President Trump and the first lady, then they go for J.D.

[Maureen Callahan]

vance, and then. And then Secret Service goes. And they grab, you know, it's by

[Rob]

hierarchy, it's by line of succession, right? And they. They grab RFK Jr. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who it's all in ask not, you know, everything he did to his wife.

[Maureen Callahan]

He made Mary Richardson Kennedy's life a living hell. A living hell. He and Cheryl Hines. He was still legally married to Mary, and he and Cheryl Hines both.

[Rob]

My opinion, my interpretation of facts based

[Maureen Callahan]

on the many people I spoke to for this book, really enjoyed making Mary's life a misery.

[Rob]

And Bobby continued to do so even in death.

[Maureen Callahan]

You know, he fought Mary's siblings to

[Rob]

have Mary buried in the vaunted Kennedy plot up in Massachusetts. And then, like days later, he had

[Maureen Callahan]

her coffin secretly exhumed without permits in the middle of the night and moved to be buried alone on the side of a hill facing traffic. Would it surprise you to know that this guy ducked and ran for cover

[Rob]

under big burley Secret Service agents and left his wife to fend for herself in a strapless dress and high heels while an active shooting is taking place? That as far as they know. And by the way, it's not like she didn't grab his suit jacket and tug on it from several feet behind as if to say, hey, wait up. Don't leave me exposed out here. I don't want to die. Would that surprise you guys? We're going to enjoy it together. We're going to enjoy it together. Sit back, settle in and watch.

[Maureen Callahan]

Here we go. There they go, running, running, running.

[Rob]

And here comes Cheryl, her arm outstretched. She can barely move in her heels grabbing for him. And nobody's.

[Maureen Callahan]

Nobody's turning around, not even her husband.

[Rob]

He doesn't give a shit. He doesn't give a shit. All.

[Maureen Callahan]

Listen, sister, I must.

[Rob]

I must avail yourself, okay? Even Jackie Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe were expendable, okay? Having starred on a premium cable show

[Maureen Callahan]

for a few seasons.

[Rob]

That's nothing, sister. That's nothing. But here she is. She took to Instagram within hours to make sure that we all don't think

[Maureen Callahan]

we saw what we saw with our own eyes.

[Rob]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Maureen Callahan]

We all misunderstand. Here she goes.

[Cheryl Hines]

So we were there and we heard shots and everybody got under the tables. Nobody knew what was going on. And then, you know, Bobby's security detail surrounded us and took us. Him, I mean, really, like, had to lift me over chairs because I'm in heels. And a gown.

[Rob]

What?

[Cheryl Hines]

And they took us through all of the back.

[Rob]

Okay, that's enough. That's enough. That's enough. We saw it. We saw it. He didn't care who he left behind. Cheryl, you're an afterthought at best. You're.

[Sunny Hostin]

You're.

[Rob]

You're an adornment. You're his insulation from being the disgusting, womanizing, misogynistic cretin he is. You're just the window dressing. And if that doesn't make you file for divorce, you've got everything else karmically coming to you. That's it. That's it for our Tuesday edition of the Nerve. Come back and see us tomorrow, won't you? For the Nerve at night, if you haven't already, check out our substack.

[Maureen Callahan]

That is our weekly email to which you can subscribe [e-mail] our mothership, our homepage, thenerve show.com. it's all there.

[Rob]

Be sure to subscribe.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's five bucks a month. It helps the show to expand.

[Rob]

Plus nerve merch. Grab something for yourself or a fellow troublemaker atshopthe nerve.com and remember, one week from last Monday. Right, one week from yesterday, it's the Nerves First Met Gala Live stream. We will begin the ceremony at 8 a. Oh, sorry.

[Maureen Callahan]

8pm 8pm Eastern. Monday, May 4, 8pm Eastern.

[Rob]

The nerves Met Gala live stream with

[Maureen Callahan]

some of your favorite troublemakers in studio. Teddy might be there. He might. He's negotiating his terms. Very difficult. Very difficult. We will see you back here tomorrow

[Rob]

at the Nerve, where you will never

[Maureen Callahan]

guess what we're about to say next.

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[Angie Hicks (repeat)]

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