Family Estrangement During the Holidays, 'Golden Child' vs. 'Scapegoat,’ and Reconciliation

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Nerve with Maureen Callahan

Episode Title: Family Estrangement During the Holidays, 'Golden Child' vs. 'Scapegoat,’ and Reconciliation
Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Maureen Callahan (MK Media)
Guest: Professor Sam Vaknin

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Overview

In this thought-provoking holiday episode, Maureen Callahan and psychology professor Sam Vaknin dissect modern family estrangement—especially the increasing trend of going "no contact" with family members over disagreements. They critically examine viral cultural messages that laud familial cut-off, delve into the psychology of the “golden child” and “scapegoat” sibling roles, and debate what true reconciliation can look like as adults.
With skepticism, humor, and psychological expertise, they challenge listeners to face complex family dynamics with maturity and empathy, especially during the holidays.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of Family Estrangement and "No Contact"

(Begins ~03:36)

• Definition & Origin
  • Sam Vaknin describes how he originally coined the term “no contact” in the 1980s as a clinical strategy for situations of genuine abuse—physical, psychological, or emotional—not mere discomfort or disagreement.

    “At no point did I or anyone else imply that no contact is applicable to situations where you simply disagree with someone.” (Vaknin, 05:53)

• Estrangement vs. No Contact
  • Estrangement is reluctance to invest in a family relationship; it’s often based in entitlement and self-indulgence rather than necessity.

    “Estrangement is a form of entitlement—narcissistic. It's when you decide... you're entitled to special treatment.” (Vaknin, 07:15)

2. Cultural Trends Fueling Estrangement

(08:37–13:00)

• Narcissism & Social Bubbles

  • Maureen and Sam observe that narcissism has seeped into social norms, with people lauding themselves for moral superiority in breaking ties over disagreements (often political).
  • Maureen references the political climate post-2016 as supercharging this mindset.

    “There are virtue signalers who believe to have any relationship with a family member who may have voted for Trump is to sully oneself.” (Callahan, 08:57)

• Atomization & Technology

  • Sam introduces “atomization”—how technology enables isolation so effectively that even non-abusive family connections seem optional or burdensome.

    “Other people are perceived as a burden.” (Vaknin, 10:57)

  • The pandemic amplified this trend; people did not rush to reconnect once lockdowns ended.

• Malignant Tolerance and Hypervigilance

  • Hypervigilance, a narcissistic trait, has been elevated to a cultural ideal, creating paranoia and self-isolation.

    “People have elevated hypervigilance and rendered it an ideology. They've idealized it. It's a religion.” (Vaknin, 12:24)

3. The Psychology of Aloneness and Infantilization

(14:54–22:56)

• Self-Sufficiency and Decline of Socialization
  • Pew studies show a stark drop in close friendships from ~10 per person in 1980 to less than 1 today.

    “People are not having friends anymore, and they don't want to see their families... Alone is empowering.” (Vaknin, 17:32)

• Infantilization of Adults
  • A culture of leisure and easy living, especially for white collar professionals, blurs adulthood, leading to more childish, solipsistic (self-focused) behavior.

    “It's very difficult to tell [adults] apart from adolescents, if not children.” (Vaknin, 21:10)

  • This ties to narcissism, as both are forms of arrested development.

4. Sibling Roles: Golden Child vs. Scapegoat

(25:50–41:09)

• Exploring the Classic Dynamic (East of Eden Clip)
  • Maureen references the depiction of these roles in the film “East of Eden.”

    “The emotional shifts in that one scene alone are just wild.” (Callahan, 29:15)

• Role Theory & Projected Splitting
  • Families unconsciously assign “roles” (fixer, conciliator, golden child, scapegoat).
  • Sam introduces his concept of “projected splitting”—parents divide themselves into “all good” and “all bad,” then project those halves onto their children.

    “She divides herself into a part that is all good and a part that is all bad. And then she projects these parts onto the children.” (Vaknin, 33:08)

• Projective Identification
  • Parents subtly insist children act out their assigned roles; compliance becomes proof of love.

    “You want you to behave this way... it's validating me, it means you love me.” (Vaknin, 36:45)

5. Possibility (and Limits) of Reconciliation

(41:06–46:07)

• Siblings Can Reconcile

  • Positive change can occur if siblings recognize the dynamic and form understanding, but often the process slips into simply demonizing the parents—a less healthy but common phase.

    “You need to create an integrated, nuanced view of your parents, which includes forgiveness... but does not require forgetting.” (Vaknin, 41:06)

• The Struggle to Escape Assigned Roles

  • People regress to childhood roles around parents—even highly successful adults feel themselves revert at holiday dinners.

    “I am a mother, I have a career, I am a wife, I'm across from my father, and I become eight.” (Callahan, 45:54)

• Neuroscience Revelation

  • New studies show our personalities are largely shaped by age nine.

    “Recent studies in neuroscience have demonstrated pretty conclusively that we are completely shaped by age nine.” (Vaknin, 47:10)

6. On Forgiveness, Expectations, and Self-Compassion

(50:28–59:03)

• Parents’ Humanity & the Terror of Parenting
  • Empathy is key: Most parents do their best amid ignorance, terror, and external expectations, even when they falter.

    “There is no job more terrifying than… parent. The majority of people are not equipped to be parents.” (Vaknin, 51:12–51:29)

  • Maureen adds: “There are more people walking around than not who have kids ... because it was the expected thing to do.” (Callahan, 51:40)
• Letting Go of Perfectionism (in Self & Others)
  • Everyone deserves self-forgiveness; both parents and children are limited, flawed, and merely doing their best.

    “There's no call for you to be angry at yourself, to criticize yourself... You're always doing your best.” (Vaknin, 53:31)

7. The Dark Side of Estrangement: Othering and Aggression

(56:13–59:03)

• Estrangement as “Othering” and Aggression
  • Estrangement for trivial reasons is closely tied to intolerance and aggression, the very traits often decried in others.

    “Estrangement... is a form of othering. This is exactly what the woke movement is all about. You shouldn't reject people just because they're not like you. Why are you rejecting your parents because they're not like you?” (Vaknin, 56:13)

  • No-contact (when not for abuse) is an “externalized act of aggression.”

    “All other forms of no contact are actually expressions of unmitigated externalized aggression ... a manifestation and expression of antisocial narcissism.” (Vaknin, 58:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Meaning of Estrangement:
  “Estrangement is a form of self indulgence... an act of entitlement... a form of narcissism.” (Vaknin, 07:15)

• On Cultural Atomization:
  “Given the chance, people avoid each other with alacrity and cheer... The default seems to be aloneness, not togetherness.” (Vaknin, 15:11)

• On Assigned Roles in Family:
  “You internalize your parents. They become introjects and they speak to you from the inside... This is your role. If you love me, you're gonna fulfill the role.” (Vaknin, 46:25)

• On the Illusion of Final Freedom:
  “When the parents pass away, that doesn't resolve the issue... They're always going to be inside your head.” (Vaknin, 49:38)

• Reconciliation and Forgiveness:
  “Forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to forget. You should not forget. Remembering is a crucial element in healing.” (Vaknin, 41:27)

• On the Nature of Parenting:
  “There is no job more terrifying than being a parent... And also, the majority of people are not equipped to be parents.” (Vaknin, 51:13)

• On the Dangers of Estrangement as a Trend:
  “No contact is an aggressive act. It is externalized aggression. No other way to describe it. I mean, except if you're being abused.” (Vaknin, 58:04)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 03:36 – Introduction to no-contact and estrangement
• 06:28 – Definitions: Estrangement, role theory, and narcissism
• 10:46 – “Atomization” and the tech-fueled culture of aloneness
• 12:24 – Malignant tolerance, hypervigilance, and cultural isolation
• 15:11 – Humans as social animals & post-pandemic isolation
• 17:32 – Decline of close friendships and voluntary socializing
• 21:25 – Infantilization and the arrested development of adults
• 26:55 – Golden child vs. scapegoat: Psychological mechanics
• 33:08 – Projected splitting and the origin of sibling roles
• 36:45 – Projective identification and parental expectations
• 41:06 – Stages of sibling reconciliation and the danger of parent-demonization
• 45:54 – The “eight-year-old at the holiday table” phenomenon
• 47:10 – Neuroscience: Personality is formed by age nine
• 49:38 – The inescapability of internalized parents
• 51:13 – The terror and inadequacy of parenthood
• 56:13 – Estrangement, othering, and the culture of intolerance
• 58:04–59:03 – No contact as aggression; wrapping up the episode

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Closing Reflection

Maureen and Sam challenge the audience to see estrangement through a new lens—warning against confusing momentary discomfort or familial difference for genuine grounds for rupture. They urge a more mature, forgiving, and nuanced approach, especially during the holidays. With empathy and deep psychological insight, they leave listeners both unsettled and encouraged to look for connection—even where it isn’t easy.

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For more, visit The Nerve at thenerveshow.com or subscribe on your favorite platform.

Transcript

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[Maureen Callahan]

Hello and welcome to your Tuesday edition of the Nerve. I am your host, Maureen Callahan and we have so much to get to today with our very special guest, Sam Vacnin. And we are going to talk the ongoing trend of no contact with family members, which really, really resonated with you guys after our most recent segment. And we're going to talk too about very difficult sibling dynamics, one known as golden child versus the scapegoat. We had again, seven so many emails from troublemakers asking if we could get into this with someone as well versed as Sam. And so we are giving you exactly what you asked for. That's why we're here. Here we go. Are you searching for that thoughtful holiday gift? Cove Pure water purifier, is it? I have one of these and I love it. Cove Pure lets you select hot, cold or warm water instantly. No more waiting for the kettle. Hydration is we know, but we don't always meet our body's daily needs. Cove Pure sizing, however, makes it. Their sizing presets make it effortless to do so. Just hit the 16oz button a few times a day and stay on track. Plus, the water tastes pristine. It's pure with no aftertaste. And most importantly, Cove Pure is lab certified to remove up to 99.9% of contaminants like PFAS, pharmaceuticals, fluoride, lead and arsenic. So if you're looking for a gift that's good for your loved ones and that they'll actually use, don't think twice. It's Cove Pure. And because the Nerve has partnered with COVID Pure, they're giving our Troublemakers a special $250 holiday discount with link covpure.com/ nerve. That's C-O-V-E-P-U-R E.com nerve to get $250 off covpure.com nerve. Hurry before the sale ends. It's the holidays, and that's when complicated family dynamics tend to flare up. So we decided who better to bring in for a chat about how to navigate this stuff. The Nerve's favorite psychology expert, Professor Sam Vacnin. Sam, welcome back to the Nerve.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Thank you for having me. Good to see you again, Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's good to see you. Where are you coming to us from?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Don't ask. I've been traveling. Over. Over traveling.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, over traveling. Sounds like such a sophisticated problem.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yes, indeed.

[Maureen Callahan]

So we originally were going to tackle the golden child versus the scapegoat, which is a very common family dynamic, and we will do it today. But before that, I wanted to touch on, or rather really talk to you about this concept of going no contact with family members who have aggrieved you. We're not talking about going no contact with family members who have abused you, who have really either sexually, physically, emotionally, psychologically really abused you. No, we're talking no contact because you don't like the way somebody voted. You don't like the way somebody get doles out advice. You know, it could be minor things. Now this video has gone viral. We're gonna. We're gonna show it. For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is again, one of the darkest forces at work today. One Oprah Winfrey moderating a room full of people in New York City who say that they've gone no contact with their family for years and they're happier for it. We're gonna take a look, and then, Sam, I'm gonna ask you to get into it. Here we go. So maybe you all can relate in some way to this growing phenomenon known as going no contact. That's when a person cuts off ties to someone in their family. A Cornell University study now shows that almost one third of Americans are. One third are actively estranged from a family member. Sam, what do you make of this? And what do you think explains the. The way in which this has caught fire among the general population?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

I coined the phrase no contact actually in the 1980s to describe. To describe a set of 27 strategies that apply to a situation where. Where you have an abuser as a family member. So these are 27 strategies are pretty complex. I'm not going to all this at no point did I or anyone else imply that no contact is applicable to situations where you simply disagree with someone or you don't feel comfortable with someone, or. So we make a distinction in clinical psychology or family psychology, we make a distinction between no contact, which is a valid mainstream strategy nowadays, mainstream strategy for coping with abuse, and estrangement, which is a completely different ball game.

[Maureen Callahan]

What's the difference?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Estrangement is when you are unwilling to invest the necessary resources in order to maintain a relationship, or at the very least, an interaction with a family member. So, and it doesn't have to be a blood family member, could be a spouse, could even be a boyfriend or girlfriend, someone in an. In an intimate setting. So where intimacy is involved, we have estrangement.

[Maureen Callahan]

So estrangement can. Is there something that somehow feels more valid about estrangement versus no contact? Is there something that feels less finite about estrangement than the no contact?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Estrangement is a form of self indulgence. It's a form of self indulging oneself. It's a form of entitlement, in effect. And in this sense, ironically, estrangement is narcissistic. It's when you decide that the minimal investment necessary in order to maintain a frictionless environment where you are able to accommodate other people's points of view, other people's behavioral modes, other people's quirks and frailties and vulnerabilities and weaknesses and demands on your time and other resources. When you decide that all these are too much for you, that you're entitled to special treatment, that therefore you are superior morally and ethically to other people, and that any form of compromise is the equivalent of a surrender. So estrangement usually involves a power play. It's usually. It's a form of a power play where you withdraw, you disengage as a manipulative tactic, as a way to exert and exhibit power, to show how strong you are, how superior you are.

[Maureen Callahan]

Interesting. So what's going on with these. What has become not only extremely acceptable, but laudable means of disengagement? I think there's a sort of. It's a coalescing of two distinct things that have risen in the culture, I think, to a dangerous degree. One, the culture of narcissism, I think it's been amplified by social media and finding your hives and your bubbles and living in that there and then. It's political. And I really think this is just my opinion. From what I observe, the election of Trump in 2016 really gave rise to this idea of no contact, that there are virtue signalers who believe to have any relationship with a family member who may have voted for Trump is to sully oneself to be emboldening. You know, racism. He's Hitler, basically. He's Hitler. Right. And so you see, at least in America, you know, I read these venerated advice columnists who've been syndicated for years who have bought into this and who promulgate this idea. They'll get letters from people saying, this Thanksgiving, you know, my MAGA voting uncle is going to be there, and I just don't think I can sit at the same table. And they're told, you know, you're absolutely right, you're defending democracy and protecting your own moral center. So go do it. I mean, Sam, can you talk about this?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

There is a strand of narcissism known as pro social or communal narcissism, or where self indulgence, selfishness and entitlement are cloaked. They are disguised as something commendable.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Socially and otherwise. And it is a form of, of narcissism. But I think there's a, there are other trends at play which, which preceded even the rise of narcissism, the recent rise of narcissism, and I think the foremost amongst which is atomization.

[Maureen Callahan]

Atomization.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Atomization. Where, where people have been rendered self sufficient by technology. They don't need other people anymore.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And so other people are perceived as a burden.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes. Because they have needs and wants.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yes. Because they have needs and wants and demands and expectations even. Yeah, Even unexpressed expectations. Their very presence is perceived as intolerable and burdensome.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And there was a rise in what I call malignant tolerance.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yeah, tell us about that.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

It's, it's, it's a situation where any speech act and any behavior and any choice and any decision can be construed as form of injury. As, as a slight. Yeah, this is, this is a clinical term. This has a clinical term. It's known as hypervigilance. Narcissists scan the room, they scan other people. They're always on the alert. And they interpret innocuous behaviors and innocent acts of speech. They interpret them as deliberate attacks. They become very defensive and very aggressive and possibly at times violent. So hypervigilance is a key clinical feature in pathological narcissism. And I think people have elevated hyper vigilance and rendered it an ideology. They have idealized.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's a religion.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

It's a religion. They've idealized it. They've idolized it and they've rendered it and organizing an explanatory principle of social relations. And so hyper vigilance has two sides. On the one hand, it inhibits speech. Like there are things you can't say, things which are taboo, and if you do say them, you're being injurious, you're being immoral and amoral, you're being an a hole and worse and so on and so forth. You're being maybe Hitler. Yeah, yeah. And this is political correctness and all these manifestations of, of this facet of malignant tolerance. And the other facet of malignant tolerance is self isolation. Because if you are attuned all the time to possible slights and insults and attacks and so on, you're going to end up developing paranoid ideation. And then you're going to isolate yourself in order to minimize the surface of injury, the surface of attack, so to speak. So you're going to isolate yourself. Now, initially in the 1960s and 70s and 80s, it was very difficult to isolate yourself because the interdependence between people was huge. But nowadays, with modern technologies, each and every one of us can be entirely self sufficient. Like you could stay in your apartment for the rest of your life, never ever exit the door. You could be agoraphobic, basically, and survive well into your 90s without any, you know.

[Maureen Callahan]

But Sam, this is so fascinating not to cut you off, but you know, we just emerged from that very thing. We just emerged from COVID It was the blink of an eye when we were all in lockdown and the profound isolation that we all came to feel. One would think once those doors and windows were open would have brought about a renewed appreciation for our interdependence, for our need for each other, for all of the benefits of socializing. And instead it seems people have retreated even further into their corners. And as you said, with these emerging technologies, now we've got chatbots, we've got debates going on in the culture as to whether human relationships with either AI or robots, be they platonic or sexual, are going to be legitimate. I mean, I, I don't know that there's any. Dialing this back before it's too late. I mean, what do you see? What do you see coming down the road?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Well, first of all, the underlying supposition, underlying assumption that human beings are social animals is not new. It dates back to Aristotle who called, called people zone, politicon, the social animal.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And yet it seems that given the chance, people avoid each other with alacrity and cheer. And joy. Given the chance, people isolate themselves. The default seems to be aloneness, not togetherness. It seems that collective action, collaboration, cooperation, all these things, pulling resources, sharing, all these things were forced upon us by the exigencies of scarcity and famine and war and by the lack of appropriate technology. Having been given the chance nowadays to avoid other people, Pew center studies show that at least half of all people make this choice. 42% of adults, for example, make this choice.

[Maureen Callahan]

But is it a chicken or the egg thing? Sam, you know, without modern technology, without the sort of substitute interaction with people online or with AI or with chatbots, what have you, would people be so easily able to default to that aloneness?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

I subscribe to the view that technology is responsive. It is not a driver of change. It is responsive to change. So I think what preceded technology was the need to be alone, which has not been satisfied for thousands of years. And finally we had breakthroughs which allowed us to be alone, and then we embraced this technology. Take, for example, the following fact. The pandemic is over. People refuse to return to the office.

[Maureen Callahan]

I would push back on that, though, because that is not a voluntary act. You have a boss, you have demands. You are told, my time is annexed by you. You, because I pay you, and so you're going to commute two hours a day. And like, your life is a misery. And we've all seen it much easier.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

That's not what the studies show. When we ask people, why do you refuse to. To return to the office? They say, because I don't want to see my colleagues.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, that also I would push back on. That's forced. Like I don't get to choose my colleagues, you know, and it's. It's different than a family or it's different than friends who you choose. Right, exactly.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

But they don't have family. They don't have family and friends. In 1980, a typical American, according to studies, had 9.8 good friends. The question in the study, the studies at the time, was, if you had a secret or a problem, how many people would you share it with? And the answer was, on average, 9.8 people. The number today is 0.9. So there's been a decline not only in forced socializing, like in the workplace, Right. But there is a. Has been a enormous decline in voluntary socializing. People are not having friends anymore, and they don't want to see their families. They disguise it. They. They create ideologies and they create theories, and they create, you know, they are disguising it. Estrangement. Is simply and simply an indication of the underlying psychology of alone is good, alone is empowering. When I'm alone, I can shape my environment and my life to fit me snugly, like handing glove. But when I'm surrounded by people, you know, they push back. It requires an investment of energy and resources and it's aggravating, it's irritating. I don't want any of this. There is, of course, also another trend, and that is a trend of infantilization.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

People are immature. Seriously?

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes. Yes. What is that about? Does that dovetail with the narcissism? Just the refusal to brook anybody else's needs or wants is equal to, if not at times superseding one's own.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

It's. It has to do with narcissism. Of course. One of the key elements in pathological narcissism is arrested development or stunted development. These people are basically children narcissists. We've discussed it in previous. Okay. On previous occasions. But it's not only. It's not only narcissists who are immature or regressed into an infant state. It's. It's vast swathes of the population, I would say. And I think the reason is that we have it easy. We don't have to work to produce our food. Yeah, we work a few hours a day. I mean, people used to work 16 hours a day.

[Maureen Callahan]

If you're a white collar professional, you work.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

You can watch your white collar. But yeah, I mean, people on the lower levels of the socioeconomic economic ladder have to work several jobs in order to make ends meet. That's quite accurate. But the ethos, the ideal, the aspiration is to work less. Whereas in previous periods in history, the ideal was to work more. The work dignified you, your job dignified you. Your job defined you, your identity was your job. So this very day in Japan, for example. But nowadays it's. It's, you know, I want to work less, I want to have more leisure. I want to, you know, I want to. Entertainment has become the predominant feature of modern life. Not erudition, not hard work and so on. Now, I'm not expressing an opinion here. I'm not saying it's bad or good, but these are the facts. So when we look at the lives of adults nowadays, it's very difficult to tell them apart from, let's say, adolescents, if not children.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And this is not a new observation. This started in the 70s and they.

[Maureen Callahan]

Coined the me decade.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

The me decade, Peter Pan syndrome. And then they coined the phrase puerto, which means Eternal adolescent or puela eterna for a woman. And so this is not a new observation. And regressive infantilization of society means that you're much less likely to enjoy interactions with other people because children are pretty solipsistic. Children are self focused, their empathy is not well developed. Children are incapable of cooperating with other children on a sustained basis. Children are high conflict, they're antagonistic. And children basically walk away or run away if you don't comply with their wishes and don't meet their expectations. So we see these infantile behavior patterns coupled with atomization, coupled with technological empowerment, coupled with self sufficiency, coupled with all these things, narcissism. I mean, put all of these together and you end up having a situation where we glorify and glamorize the aloneness, the state of being alone. I'm not saying loneliness because loneliness is a reaction to being alone. Yes, loneliness is a psychological reaction to being alone. And it's a negative reaction.

[Maureen Callahan]

Like if you don't, it's a negative one. And it's a, it's a predictor of early mortality, more so than a lot of other true physical ailments. And I do think, you know, you said you're not saying whether it's bad or good. I think it's a force for bad, I think it's a force for darkness. And I think the likes of Oprah Winfrey standing up there and talking to millions of people and saying, hey, this is a basically underscoring that this is a valid choice, that if somebody in your life is just annoying you, somebody who has earned a real place in your life is annoying you, the best thing to do is just cut them off like a useless limb. You know, I think it's an extremely dark message that is being swallowed whole by a population that's been narcotized in this way. Today's show is brought to you by Oxford Natural, home of the natural Optimum Day and Optimum Night supplements. Are you trying to lose weight after having a baby? Or are you prepping for your wedding or just ready to feel like yourself again? Thousands of men and women across the US and UK are already doing it with Oxford Natural. Optimum Day powers you with steady energy, it crushes cravings and it keeps your metabolism firing all day. Optimum Night helps you relax, sleep deeply, recover and keep burning fat while you rest. England soccer legend Michael Owen lost 40 pounds and Robbie, the face of AFTV, dropped over 100 pounds. This has worked for others too, with customer testimonials raving about Oxford Naturals effectiveness. Now it's your turn. Scan the QR code or click the Link and grab 70% off your first order with code Nerve. No gimmicks, no needles, just results. Oxford Natural let's get to work. This season everyone deserves a little more and Mazda delivers with the extended driving range of the CX50 Hybrid so you can spend more time together. Standard all wheel drive in every Mazda CUV including the CX5 and room to bring everyone with three row seating in the CX90. Find more reasons to celebrate the season at the Mazda Mortimov Sales event.

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[Maureen Callahan]

Now that the holidays are truly upon us, I wanted to get to a sibling dynamic that is extremely common. We've gotten a lot of emails about this and it is the golden child versus the scapegoat. The one or both parents anointing one child. The good one, the other child, the bad one. And sometimes these two roles flip. It's kinetic, it's dynamic. One of my favorite depictions of this is in the 1955 film east of Eden. It's a Cain and Abel story adapted from the John Steinbeck novel. James Dean plays Cal, the scapegoat. And I forget the actor who plays Aaron, you know, because it's James Dean's movie. But he's the good one. And so we're gonna show a clip of the James Dean character exploding on the father for his neglect, if not just outright dislike. Palpable contempt for him, for him, For California. Here we go.

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

Where's Aaron? Iron Milk.

[Maureen Callahan]

Not my brother's keeper.

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

Where did you go?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

For a ride.

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

What did you quarrel about?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

You. You're angry about the money?

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

I'm not angry. I like it. I think it's great. I'm gonna go away. I'm gonna take that money with me and I think I'll start me a little business. Just like my mother did. What do you know about your mother? I know where she is, know what she is. And I know why she left you. Couldn't stand it. You didn't really love her any more than you do me. Because your goodness, your rightness. You never gave either one of us an inch, ever, for what you thought was right. You kept on forgiving us.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

You never really loved us.

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

I know why you didn't love me. Cause I'm like my mother. And you never forgave yourself for having loved her. I'm not gonna forgive him. I'm never gonna forgive him.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Where's Aaron?

[James Dean (Character in East of Eden Clip)]

He's with her. With his mother. She's over there in Monterey, if you want to know. She owns one of them houses. I took Aaron there tonight. Cause I was jealous. I've been jealous all my life. Jealous. I couldn't even stand it. Tonight. I even tried to buy your love. But now I don't want it anymore. I can't use it anymore. Don't talk to your father like that. I don't want any kind of love anymore.

[Maureen Callahan]

Such an incredible movie. So, Sam, talk to us about how the dynamics of the golden child versus the scapegoat tend to. What their origins tend to be. I know everything is case by case, and family dynamics are often specific, but this is a very, very common thing that happens in families.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, just for. For historical record's sake, it's Richard the Valos, the. The other actor.

[Maureen Callahan]

Did you just Google that, Sam, to show me up?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

No, I'm not. I'm not criticizing you. It's. It's an obscure actor. He's not like, you know.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, is he? Yeah, I've seen that movie like 20 times. But the guy who plays Aaron always fades in my memory because James Dean is so vivid, you know, and he. The emotional shifts in that one scene alone are just wild. But anyway, talk to us.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, no, I'm a movie buff. I have like a collection of 25, 000 movies. So.

[Maureen Callahan]

Now you're talking my language.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, I love movies. Okay. To understand the emergence of scapegoats and golden children in families, we need to explore two concepts which are pretty interesting and important because they apply to other. Other types of settings in life.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

The first concept is known as role theory. And it says that people allocate roles when people are in a unit, a social unit. Could be a family, could be any. Any other type of collective friend, group. Yeah, whatever. They tend to allocate Roles to each other. So in family, you would have the fixer, you would have the. The conciliator, you would have the scapegoat, you have the golden child. You. There are many types of roles allocated to the children. And, and they're known as emergent roles. That is to explain or. Or to make clear that scapegoat and gold golden child are two possible roles, but there are many others.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Okay. So the second and much more relevant concept is something that I came up with, High coin. And it's projected. Projected splitting. To understand projected splitting, we need to go even further, deeper and get acquainted with two infantile primitive defense, psychological defense mechanisms known as splitting and projection.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Splitting is simply when you divide the world and everyone in it into all bad and all good, all black and all white. This is known as dichotomous thinking.

[Maureen Callahan]

Dichotomous thinking. Okay.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And the other element is projection. It's when there are parts of you that you find uncomfortable that you reject, that you're unhappy with. Rather than confront these parts and integrate them, rather than be honest with yourself, what you do is you attribute them to other people. You say, it's not me. They are like that. I'm not like that. They're like that.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's kind of the theory that the thing that the characteristics you may find most grating in others are the ones that you yourself have and either are in denial about them or just cannot look at them.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Exactly. This is projection. And then you would attribute them to other people. And this gives you the right to criticize them, to denigrate them to, you know, because you now have attained the high moral ground, you're purified. Projection is an act of purification and purging. Okay, now combine the two into my new construct of projected splitting. When you combine the two, what you have, you have a situation where there's an immature parental figure. Could be a narcissist, could be a depressive person, could be. But it's a person who is unable to function. A dysfunctional person.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And so I'm going to use she, although it equally applies, of course, to fathers, not only mothers.

[Maureen Callahan]

Sure, let's demonize the women. We got it. Cool.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

A male chauvinist. And, you know, I'm old enough to be Victorian. So if you, when. When you have a mother, for example, who engages in splitting, she would tend to see some of. Of her children as all good and some of her children is all bad. But that's not enough. What she does, then she self splits. She divides herself into a part that is all good and a part that is all bad. And then she projects these parts onto the children. So there would be a child which would become the receptacle or the container of everything that is good in the mother or everything the mother considers to be good. And there would be another child who would become the repository of everything that is bad in the mother or everything the mother dislikes about herself, rejects, denies, you know, hates about herself. So there's splitting, self splitting, and then projecting these parts onto the children. The child who is lucky enough who has won the lottery and got the good parts of the mother becomes the golden child. And the child who is the container or repository of the bad parts, that's a scapegoat.

[Maureen Callahan]

You know, I often think, though, there's. There are a lot of downsides to being the golden child. And I think there are a lot of upsides to. To being the scapegoat. You know, being the scapegoat sort of gives you free rein to be as bad as you want to be. You know, it sort of. It liberates a child very early on from these ideas, if you're self aware enough that there is such a thing as all good or all bad. Unless we're talking about psychopathy. Why I love the east of Eden example is because it's the father who, as James Dean rightly points out, the psychology of this book and this movie are so incredible. The father hates himself for having loved the mother who now the father has moralized and elevated himself even higher because the mother's now running a brothel up in Monterey. So the mother's a real sinner. Right. And he's got to protect the golden child from knowing his true origins. But the father hates Cal the Seeker. He's the scapegoat. He wants the truth. He wants to know why he's so unloved. He's so unloved because he reminds the father of the mother, but really of the father's failure for falling in love with someone he thinks is a bad woman. So what I want to ask you is how it can be possible. Because I think the real damage comes when the siblings themselves are unable to realize the machinations at play and that they have been manipulated into believing that one of them is good and one of them is a hopeless case is bad. And how, especially if you're adult siblings and this perhaps has calcified a golden child and a scapegoat can begin to talk to each other and see each other as actually both victims.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, to respond to this elaborate question, we need to introduce the another concept from psychology known as projective identification. Projected identification simply means that once I've projected something onto you, a part of myself that I dislike and reject, now I attribute it to you. I want you to behave this way. I want you to confirm my projection. I want you to comply with my projection. So it's not only that the parent allocates roles, and it's not only that the parent kind of deposits her good side with a golden child, her bad side with the scapegoat, but the parent also wants the children to behave accordingly. So the parents. The parent communicates expectations to the child. You are a bad, unworthy, inadequate child. And if you love me, you're going to behave this way. Yes, you're going to be a bed. A bad boy or a bad girl. Because when you are a bad boy or bad girl, that means you agree with me, means you're validating me, and it means you love me.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

So this is projective identification. And this is the reason why children actually comply with the assigned roles. As you could ask yourself, why don't children rebel? Because children are rebellious by nature. Why don't they rebel against this assignment of roles? Because it guarantees love. They are loved only. Only if they play by. By the script, if they play out the script, if they. If they comply with the. With the rulebook. So this illicit and subtle communication of, you know, you're bad, you're evil, you're unworthy, but if you behave this way, you're also lovable. You're lovable only if you're bad.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And of course, the other type of communication is you're lovable only if you comply with my wishes, realize my fantasies, fulfill my dreams, and.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes, and so on.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

The. It's exceedingly difficult to exit these roles lifelong unless the parent reassigns them.

[Maureen Callahan]

Can the adult siblings find liberation on their own? Whether they're in therapy, whether they are liberated? You know, this is. It would be considered a dark thought, but it's often quite true when a parent dies. You know, some people really come into their own because they're free. They're free of, of the. Of the prison guard, frankly, the emotional prison guard. You know, I. This is a lesser example, but I know siblings who have open communications about this. My sibling and I among are among them. Oh, you were, you were so. You were the father's favorite. You were dad's favorite. You were mom's favorite. That's just the way it is. Nobody's fault. Nope. It's not our fault, it's not your fault, it's their fault. It's their fault. You know, it was their issues. So I, I do wonder if there is, if there is hope where a golden child could reach out to a scapegoat and say, hey, like, I see, I see what went on and I didn't like it.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Inter sibling reconciliation and inter sibling understanding and so on are definitely possible and very common, actually.

[Maureen Callahan]

I love this. I love this.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Siblings form a common front against the abusing parents. So the golden child teams up with a scapegoat and they both vilify and demonize the parents. That's pretty common. It's not only an awakening, it usually goes way beyond that. The parents are mythologized somehow and there's a morality play where the children are all good. And so ironically, what siblings tend to do, they tend to adopt splitting as a defense. The, the parents infantile defense mechanisms which I've mentioned before, like splitting and projection kind of affect the siblings and, and they tend to apply these, these weapons against the parents. It's not a healthy dynamic.

[Maureen Callahan]

Are you talking about as a mode of reconciliation?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

No, I mean, in. Siblings can, can definitely reach a situation where they, they love each other, they realize what has happened to them, they understand they've been victimized, and so on and so forth.

[Maureen Callahan]

Okay, so you're not saying that, that, that in order to do that. That's another pathology at work where you're demonizing the parent rather than just acknowledging what went on. There's a difference.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Studies then show that having gone through this stage of awakening, most people proceed into the next stage, which is not healthy, which is vilifying, demonizing the parents, creating a morality play where the children were all good and the parents were all bad. Splitting the parents, like my parents are evil and I'm, I'm pure angelic.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right, right.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And so on. So this is an unhealthy phase. You need to create an integrated, nuanced view of your parents.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Which includes forgiveness.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Includes understanding, includes putting yourself in their, in their shoes, which is empathy. And includes the realization that you, you're an adult and now you can understand them much better.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes. And I love this. Go ahead. Sorry not to cut you off.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to forget. You should not forget. Remembering is a crucial element in healing. But there's a difference between forgetting and forgiving. You can remember and forgive, and you can remember and not forgive. The various combinations.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

It's critical to understand the limitations of your parents, vast majority of parents are not evil. This was not premeditated. It was not a cunning, scheming, psychopathic ploy to destroy your life and victimize you and ruin you. They were simply limited people. They were limited maybe by their own mental illness, their own upbringing, their own historical background, their own There are numerous constraints and pressures that parents go through and understanding your parents in this way, I think is a crucial step. Unfortunately, many people go the wrong way. They, they and this is estrangement. Coming back to the previous topic.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes, exactly.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

They say, you know, my parents are all bad and I'm never ever going to have any contact with them again. And that's not healthy because then it's the situation is unresolved and it's not healthy for you.

[Maureen Callahan]

I think again to get to the if anybody most people act can be animated to act out of self interest and it is not healthy to through life demonizing and vilifying. Again, we're not talking about abusers. We're not talking about sexual, psychological, verbal, physical abuse. We're talking about recognizing that as even. We're talking about the splitting between a golden child and a scapegoat. That many parents are limited and are products of their generation, their time, their own parenting. Each successive generation tries to do better. Find your calm this holiday season with Peak. Peak is a luxury wellness brand powered by rare plants and cutting edge ingredients, offering the perfect remedy for this season's hustle and bustle. Their science backed botanicals, minerals and vitamins support metabolic function, immune health, sustained energy and it'll give you radiant skin. Their Sun Goddess Matcha is an organic superfood blend that redefines your daily ritual. Crafted from the purest tea leaves, it provides its smooth, sustained energy for a calm mind. And that radiant glow plus the nutrients can help curb sugar and hunger cravings, making it easier to stick to your wellness goals. If you are ready to gift the glow, unlock 20% off for life for yourself and everyone on your list. Give the gift of glowing health this holiday season. Get started at peak life.com/thenerve that's P I Q U E life.com thenerve.

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[Professor Sam Vaknin]

There is. There is a caveat.

[Maureen Callahan]

There's always a caveat with you, Sam.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, of course there is. Studies have shown that when people interact with their parents, they revert to the assignment.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes. Yes. So we got so many emails about this. Like, I go to the holiday dinner table and I turn into an 8 year old.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

I am a mother, I have a career, I am a wife, I'm across from my father and I become eight. How does one fight back against that? Can you. Should you?

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

It's very difficult to fight back against that. The assigned roles, as I said earlier, are pretty lifelong. And they, they are a determinant of identity. And you internalize your parents. They become introjects and they speak to you from the inside.

[Maureen Callahan]

Interjects. I love that word.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Yeah, they speak to you from the inside. And one of the messages is, this is your role. If you love me, you're gonna fulfill the role. You're gonna comply with the role, you're gonna play the role. You know, if you love me, that's proof of love. You need to prove your love. Your love needs to be performative. These are very sick family dynamics. Let it be clear, these are not healthy family dynamics. And yet a lot of this is internalized and carried forward to the end of life. So the best you can do is reconstruct your family with your siblings and other members of the family, like aunts and uncles and grandmothers and grandfathers and so on. Reconstruct your family. Essentially accept that your mother and father were not gods. They were. They were gods with clay feet. They were limited. They were. They did their best, but the best wasn't good enough. You have to accept this. People fail. They have failed you. They haven't. It's not about victimizing. It's not that they have victimized you. They have failed you. It's a failure. And so you have to accept that people fail. You have to be adult about it, you have to be mature about it and you have to accept that when you're in the presence of your parents, you're going to revert to your assigned role, you're going to regress, you're going to become an infant. That is totally normal. No need to be anxious about this, no need to be angry about this. It's totally normal thing. And when you live, when you leave, return to your home and to your life, I mean, it's transient, it doesn't have long term consequences or anything. So there are inevitabilities in life. There are ineluctable things that there's very little we can do about. We're shaped. We're shaped and we are formed. Recent studies in neuroscience have demonstrated pretty conclusively that we are completely shaped by age nine. Whoa. The brain, the brain has four ages and one of them is age nine. So now we know that the formative years are zero to nine, not zero. Wow. This is very recent. This is the bleeding edge. This is like a few days ago. And so we have to accept this. We have been shaped, we have been molded, we have been sculpted. And to some extent, some parts of us are going to be like that. What is the solution to give up on your life? If you give up on your parents, you're giving up on, on a crucial part of your life and an enormous portion of your identity. This is, this is self sabotage. This is self defeating. This is not a good way forward. This is self denial. You're denying yourself. It's very likely to result in phenomena such as anxiety and depression. You have to confront your life, embrace it, integrate it. You have to become one with your life. And your parents will always be there. They're inside your head. There's nothing you can do about it. They're always going to be inside your head. They're an integral part of your personal biography. They form your, what we call episodic memories. You can get rid of your parents by going, no contact. That is delusional. That's not only infantile, it's also delusional. It's not working. I mean, had it, had it, had it worked, I may have said, you know, it's a great idea. It's not working. It's not going to work because your parents are inside your head. They're not out there. And this is the answer to your other question. When the parents pass away, this, that doesn't resolve the issue. People believe that. It resolves the issue. They convince themselves. It's like the placebo effect. You know, they convince themselves my mother is. Is. You know, passed away. Now I'm free. Now I'm. That's. That's. That's for. That's fake. That's not real.

[Maureen Callahan]

I got to tell you something. I had a shrink once. So I had been hospitalized for pneumonia years and years and years, and I was put. I was put from the emergency room up into a room with. There was an elderly woman in the bed next to me, and she was dying. She was, like, actively dying, and she was maybe 90. She looked like a wraith. She looks like that wraith in seven when the cops go into the room and they're like. They think the guy's dead. And he, like, you know, and she was screaming, mommy, Mommy, Mommy. She was like, screaming this. And I said to my shrink, when I got out of the hospital, I was like. Like, it never ends, does it? And she goes, no, it never does.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Never does.

[Maureen Callahan]

True, never does. Mommy's always there.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

But if we have two more minutes, I. I would like. I would like maybe to restore some proportion.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

There is no job more terrifying than a parent.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Not the President of United States. Not the Chief Justice. Not. The most terrifying job by far is parent, mother, or father.

[Maureen Callahan]

You're so right.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

And also, the majority of people are not equipped to be parents.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

They were not trained to be parents. They didn't learn or study how to.

[Maureen Callahan]

And I'm gonna say something that might be controversial, but I believe it's true. I think there are more people walking around than not who have kids or had children because it was the thing to do. It was the. It was the expected thing to do.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

People have kids for a variety of wrong reasons and so on. But I'm talking now about the innate capacity to parent understood. People don't know how to parent because they had a bad example at home growing up or because they think parenting is like driving a car. You know, it's kind of an automatic thing. Or because they've been misled by society to believe that having children is a thing to do or for a variety of reasons.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

So put the two together. The terror, the absolute terror of having a child. The fear of getting it wrong. The ignorance. Am I doing the right thing? The. The expectations. Multiple expectations, including of your own parents. And put. So there's an ambience of terror coupled with inadequacy in a majority of cases. Now, imagine how terrifying this is. Your parents. I mean, I'm not talking. As you said, I'm not talking about incest and sexual Abuse. I don't know about these things. These, these are beyond the pale.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

A typical pair of parents, including parents who, who, who split and divide children into assigned roles of, of golden child and scapegoat, which is very common, more common than you would think.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

They, they were doing their best. You, you must accept this. They were doing their best. That's the best they could do. Are you angry at them for being who they are or who they were? Are you angry at them? What are you angry them for? Let me understand. That's, that's what, that's the maximum they could have done. That's it. The same applies to yourself. You have to forgive yourself. You're always doing your best. If the outcome is less than optimal, if you keep failing, whatever. There's no call for you to be angry at yourself, to criticize yourself, to vilify yourself, to. Then no reason for any of this. You're doing your best. We are all doing our best all the time. But we're limited. We're helpless. We are, you know, and very often we fail. And especially when we're in panic, panic mode. And all parents I know are constantly in panic mode. And panic mode never ends. Even when the child is 16 and even when the child is 26 and even when the child is 46, the panic mode never ends. It's taxing. Being a parent is taxing. I don't want to go into studies because I don't want to dissuade people, but it's really, it's a tough job. It's a, it's a horrible job. It's a tough job. And if you get it wrong, you ruin someone's life. You're ruining someone's life. It's, I mean, the stakes are enormous. I mean, give them, give them, cut them some slack, you know, give us, give them a break. I mean, they did, they did what they could. Stop being so, you know, self focused and self righteous. Self righteous and sanctimonious. And what makes you think you would have done a better job?

[Maureen Callahan]

I gotta say, Sam, I love everything you're saying. I hope that this, the, the conversations that you and I are having at the Nerve have some pushback in a culture still led by Oprah Winfrey, who had on that show that we, we showed at the top of the Nerve, a guy like a 28 year old guy who said, yeah, I've been no contact with my parents for years now, and you want to know why? They wanted me to succeed. They wanted me to go to An Ivy League school and perform well. That's his gripe. They wanted a good life for him, so no contact for them. They're gone. They're floating in space, you know. And I think everything that you have had to say here today has been incredibly enlightening. Some of it's complicated, some of it's difficult to absorb, but some of it is extremely, I think gives consolation and encouragement to many people who this holiday season will be sitting around a table wondering why they feel like they're eight and maybe reaching across to the scapegoated kid and saying, hey man, like, you know, let's go outside and take a walk. You know, I think, I think I know what went on there.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Can I add one more sentence?

[Maureen Callahan]

Of course.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Estrangement, the rejection of others going no contact for no good reason is because you cannot accept the fact that other people are different to you. You cannot accept the otherness of people.

[Maureen Callahan]

Very true.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

This is a form of othering.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

This is exactly what the woke movement is all about. You shouldn't other people alterity, you know, you shouldn't reject people just because they're not like you. Then why are you rejecting your parents? Because they're not like you. Why are you rejecting, why are you rejecting your Trump voting brother because he's not like you. Why is the much hallowed tolerance and openness when it comes to your own family? You know, so you need to accept that people are not like you. Shockingly, shockingly shocking. People are not like you and not everything revolves around you. I know it's unbelievable, but it happens to be true. And the people have a life and they have a mind. They make their own decisions and choices, analysis and conclusions and so on, so forth. And very often they're not like yours. You need to develop othering skills. You need to develop the ability to accept other people and their differences. It is a huge irony of course, that all these super tolerant, you know, people.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Are only as only tolerant towards people who are like minded, only tolerant within silos, thought silos and only tolerant within the in group while rejecting wholeheartedly and, and sometimes aggressively the out and who.

[Maureen Callahan]

Have turned that notion of going no contact into a religion.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

No contact is an aggressive act. It is externalized aggression. No other way to describe it. I mean, except if you're being abused.

[Maureen Callahan]

Exactly. With that exception, you know, well stated, well established here, but it is a profound act of cruelty and it cuts family members off from successive generations. I mean there were many people in that special talking about having zero relationship with their own grandchildren. And that is a cruelty.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

With the exception of abuse.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yep.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

All other forms of no contact are actually expressions of unmitigated externalized aggression. And in this sense they are very typical of psychopaths and narcissists and so on. We are coming back full circle. It is definitely a manifestation and expression of antisocial narcissism. Not only narcissism, but the antisocial kind.

[Maureen Callahan]

Sam, I wish I could go on with you forever, but for now we will leave it there. This is one of the kind of holiday conversations we at the Nerve love to have. Thank you again for joining us and see you soon.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Thank you for having me. Good to see you again and see you merry and happy. You know, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year.

[Maureen Callahan]

Merry and happy to you, Sam.

[Professor Sam Vaknin]

Thank you.

[Maureen Callahan]

That does it for our Tuesday edition of the Nerve. Come back and see us tomorrow for the Nerve at Night. If you haven't already, check out our [e-mail] be sure to subscribe. Plus nerve merch there's new holiday stuff over there, troublemakers. Grab something for yourself or pick something up for a fellow traveler@shop thenerve.com Also the nerve is now available on Megan's podcast playlist every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 9am Eastern on Sirius XM channel 111, the Megyn Kelly channel. We will see you back here tomorrow at the Nerve, where you will never guess what we're about to say next.

[Greenlight/DSW Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, Automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast holiday PSA from DSW.

[Maureen Callahan]

This is your reminder that shoes are a gift.

[Greenlight/DSW Advertiser]

Literally. So unwrap something good, like boots that.

[Maureen Callahan]

Inspire your next big adventure, or cozy.

[Greenlight/DSW Advertiser]

Slippers that give you an excuse to.

[Maureen Callahan]

Stay in, or sneakers that feel like pure joy. Because shoes aren't just shoes, they're exactly what you wanted. Let us surprise you so you can surprise them. Find shoes that get you and everyone on your list at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or dsw.com.