Tim McKay (4:08)

Tim.

Maureen Callahan (4:09)

Tim. This, for at least this year, is our final morning show hate watch. And you deserve kind of a medal. I mean, you've seamlessly gone from the and just like that, hate watch to the morning show. Ha. Watch. Even though I know, I know you do love Jennifer Aniston, acting ticks be damned.

Tim McKay (4:31)

I think that the and just like that show was much harder to get through because that was just absurd. I feel like every episode was just a parade of nonsense, whereas the morning show is a little bit more serious. And I will say I really liked this episode. I didn't love it. I almost loved it. Then they had to do something that ruined it at the end. And I was like, ugh. But we were like, okay, you and.

Maureen Callahan (4:50)

I are going to have our first fight. I hate to tell you, my friend, this episode.

Tim McKay (4:54)

You hated this episode.

Maureen Callahan (4:55)

I hated this episode. Okay, and we'll start. We're gonna start. First of all, my main problem with this episode, as you will see, as we will all see in the forthcoming clips, is there was a ton of exposition. The dialogue there. It was so expository. It was like perhaps you remember the last episode when my mother killed herself in front of me and you know why she did that? Oh, by the way, you know who buried the EPA report? We're on the EPA report. Okay. Ship useless simp Beta male, that is Chip, confronts Corey, the excellent Billy Crudup who deserves such Better writing than this. On.

Tim McKay (5:33)

On his movie set.

Maureen Callahan (5:35)

What?

Tim McKay (5:35)

On his mo. Sorry to interrupt you. On his movie set, though. I thought it was funny. He just walked right into his movie set, Corey's movie set, and that's where he confronted him.

Maureen Callahan (5:43)

In this episode?

Tim McKay (5:44)

Yeah, in this episode.

Maureen Callahan (5:46)

It was the office, right? We had to get up at the crack of dawn to watch this thing because it didn't drop until, you know.

Tim McKay (5:51)

I thought it was like he was in front of a big movie screen. And then Chip walks in and he's like, hey, no, no, no, no.

Maureen Callahan (5:56)

That's on. That's on the set of. This is how poorly the show is written, Tim, A visual person. You didn't get this? They were on the set of the morning show, but they were having technical difficulties with the virtual backdrop.

Tim McKay (6:07)

Oh, that's what it was.

Maureen Callahan (6:09)

That's what that was.

Tim McKay (6:10)

Oh, my God.

Maureen Callahan (6:10)

All right, we're going to take a look. Here we go.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (6:12)

There's something weird. The internal numbers at Martel don't match the EPA report on Wolf River. You know anything about this? No, I don't. Really? You? Totally in the dark. As I explained to Bradley, Legal told me to move on from the story in 2019, so I did. I turned that page in my life. And I'm not trying to go back. I get it. But even if it means we bring. Get Bradley back home, the only people that can help Bradley right now are the fine folks at the State Department. I agree. And if we break Bradley's story, then it'll put pressure on them to get on it, right? Yeah, well, that's certainly a theory. Come on, man. Like, I don't really know what's going on between.

Maureen Callahan (6:58)

Brad, come on, man.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (7:00)

They're clearly not bending over backwards to help her right now. Well, yeah, I mean, karma sucks that niche. What is wrong with you?

Tim McKay (7:09)

Come again?

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (7:11)

She's in a gulag, man. I understand you're mad at her or something, but like, man, as I'm sure you know, she script mine, my phone, and, I don't know, my soul on all things Wolf River. Perfect timing, by the way. It really set me up for the last couple of weeks. I don't know if you've ever had the honor of picking out an urn for the pile of dust formerly called your mother. There's so many choices. They got rosewood, they got ceramic, they got biodegradable, they got engraved. It is fantastic how we've managed to incorporate death into the consumer economy. While we're on the subject, quick question. What do you think is worse pretending to love someone so you can them over or killing yourself in front of them. It's, you know, artistic. Okay, I'm gonna go. Well, that's the best idea you have all day.

Maureen Callahan (8:02)

I love that scene. I love the way Billy Crudup's character just demolishes once again, the useless chip who is just in servitude, endless servitude to these terrible women who he doesn't even work for anymore.

Tim McKay (8:16)

Yeah. And I mean, he's not wrong. I mean, is it like. I mean, it was wild that his mom committed suicide in front of him? I think that's the craziest thing that's ever happened.

Maureen Callahan (8:26)

Well, he did. Technically, Corey had stepped away, so she. It was something of a surprise when he came back to see her dead body there.

Tim McKay (8:34)

Yeah. Because I don't know if. I don't know if I'd ever come back from that, but especially if it's like, you know, you're having a fun afternoon with your mom right back. But he's. Then he's talking about. I'm guessing he's insinuating Bradley there, saying that like, tricking someone to falling in love with you. I'm like, for what? Like two episodes? Like, for like an episode in the beginning of the season, we already forgot about it. All I think about is you and Maddie on cotillage. So, I mean, I just think it's funny. I was like, they're really trying to push hard. Oh. But then they had the flashback of them in bed. So they're really trying to drive home that they were in love, that this was all the relationship. And so to make it, you know.

Maureen Callahan (9:08)

That much more impactful again, it's that kind of sloppy writing. It's like, oh, shit, we gotta underscore this bullshit storyline we set up that nobody's buying as this grand love story. The balance of power was always with the Rhys character. You know, Cory was in love with her from the beginning. She was never gonna give him the time of day, so. But Cory, Reg, regardless, moved on very, very, very quickly. While his Ex girlfriend of 5 minutes is in a gulag having horrors visited upon her, which this show really pussyfoots around. Corey confronts Marion. Here we go.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (9:43)

Did you have something to do with Bradley getting taken? Cory, hey, just tell me.

Maureen Callahan (9:52)

Of course not.

Meg Josephson (9:55)

Why would you think that?

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (9:56)

Well, your family must have a financial interest in Martel since you paid Fred to bury the story.

Maureen Callahan (10:02)

I thought we put this behind more.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (10:04)

Exposition, but Bradley brought it back. She was getting close. Just getting close. To something and now not even get in to see her.

Tim McKay (10:18)

His acting is great, though. His acting is so good.

Maureen Callahan (10:21)

I had something to do with that.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (10:23)

I don't know what to think.

Tim McKay (10:29)

Villain, villain, villain. No one knew she was wearing black, making mysterious faces.

Maureen Callahan (10:36)

Ask anyone. I think you should accent get her out.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (10:40)

And I think I can help your family. Chip is looking into all of this and he's circling around the EPA report, but he doesn't know that I have the real one o the one that reveal all these reports mar for all the things they did to those people. And once Bradley is back, you and your family can have the report, an insurance policy, do whatever the.

Maureen Callahan (11:12)

We get it. Why are they over explaining this to us? My family, they can't wave a magic wand.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (11:18)

They can do something.

Maureen Callahan (11:25)

Maybe.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (11:30)

I'll call them.

Maureen Callahan (11:33)

For you. You know, Tim, I want to talk about the really important thing in that scene, which is Marion's makeup, which I think is on point. I think it's perfect. End of day executive. It's worn off the face a bit. The eye makeup is just smudgy in perfect. Perfect way. Am I right?

Tim McKay (11:53)

You're absolutely right. I think she looks stunning. And it still has this air of like that. They still use contouring and shadows to kind of give her darkness.

Maureen Callahan (12:00)

Yeah.

Tim McKay (12:01)

And I don't know, lighting, of course, helps too, but I think the makeup looks great. I always wonder what happened before this scene because doesn't she wake up from sleeping? And. And she's like, Corey. So it's like, did he come home from the park after thinking. And then like, was she already asleep? I don't know. I just try to think about what they don't show in the episode because I'm like, oh, like, did he go to sleep? He went to bed with her. Like, everything was fine. And then he got up in the middle of the night. I don't know. So that's what I was wondering when I watched that.

Maureen Callahan (12:27)

Yeah. Again, we're demanding sense from a show that has a writer's room that is, you know, paying. It has. I don't even know if they have, like, a real Bible. You know how shows have, like a Bible with, like, everything that I don't think that they.

Tim McKay (12:40)

And just like, that didn't. They clearly didn't because they messed up so many things on that show.

Maureen Callahan (12:43)

Right. They killed a character twice.

Tim McKay (12:45)

Yeah. They had no Bible. They had a pamphlet that they looked at once in a while.

Maureen Callahan (12:49)

You know, Sarah Jessica Parker, that great reader who we're going to talk about In B block. Okay, Now Jennifer Aniston is doing what she does best. She's stalking around the halls again. This is all she does. Every episode. She's stuck in around the halls in her 6 inch Louboutins. She's going to take some names and roll some heads and she's going to confront Marion Cotillard. Because Jennifer Aniston, again, this show exists in service to her ego and she's the real boss. Even though the Marion Cotillard character is supposed to be the boss. And her family apparently owns the country of France and like you know, any, any number of Middle Eastern and Eastern European despots worldwide. Here we go, talking stocking. Ms. Levy, you lied to me. You lied. The Iranians did not create that deep fake. You did. Do you know how much that me up? You stole my voice. You used me.

Meg Josephson (13:50)

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Maureen Callahan (13:52)

You were going to use that video to get me fired. And the only reason you didn't is because things got complicated with Zeke and those protesters. Exposition. Forgot about that single thing you have done since you got here. Preach sisterhood and then you edge all of us out. Laura, me, Stella.

Meg Josephson (14:13)

Oh, oh, so now you're blaming me.

Maureen Callahan (14:15)

For her up too?

Meg Josephson (14:16)

Great point.

Maureen Callahan (14:17)

Your resignation by the end of today. Otherwise I go to the board and the New York Times. I'm sorry, I'm not resigning. You are. And why would I do that? Do you know how many laws you broke when you went to the opera? Idiot. You did business with the Russian oligarch sanctioned by the US Government. The FCC position down for a stunt like that. As an executive at this company, you acted against the well being of UBN and its shareholders. General confused to step down. I'm sorry. Marion Cotillard's character is totally in the right there. And I would die to know that shade of pink lipstick she's wearing.

Tim McKay (15:04)

Tim, I just think it's funny that Alex once again comes in like with the subtlety of a hand grenade, and she just has to flip out and thinks she owns the thing. She always does this. Every episode she thinks she owns the situation and then it's like egg on her face every single time. It's just funny. She didn't help Bradley and then Bradley gets trapped in the other country and I don't know, I just feel like every episode there's something that she does that she makes some decision and then it goes wrong and she's oh, completely flabbergasted and now she's lost her job now she's fired.

Maureen Callahan (15:35)

You know what? Jennifer Aniston loves to play. And I think this tells us a lot about her own psyche. She loves to play aggrieved self righteous fury.

Tim McKay (15:45)

Oh yeah. Someone who's been through it.

Maureen Callahan (15:47)

Yeah. And in every given scene, even when she is course corrected and called on her bullshit as Marianne just did right there. Hey, you went to the opera in public and tried to cut a backroom deal with a sanctioned Russian oligarch. That sister, is called treason. You're fired. You know, she's like, what? What I did what? It's like she doesn't get it. Which also says to me something about the Jennifer Aniston psyche. Like she doesn't seem to get basic logic.

Tim McKay (16:17)

I know for the show they wanted to make it dramatic in this big burst in scene, but like in real life, when you learn that information, like wouldn't you gather some people with you? Like wouldn't. Like I wouldn't go by myself to the office to confront the villain. Like it's just that big showdown. Like I just think I'm like, come on. Like the first thing in the morning. Like you haven't even had a chance to process what you've just learned about this villain and you're just going to burst into her office and tell her everything you know, like okay, cool, just.

Maureen Callahan (16:39)

She would all your cards, her thousand dollar an hour lawyer. She would call her agent. She would call her manager. She would call in her most trusted advisors. She would call Jon Ham, a billionaire who seen some shit and get some advice from him. But no, because again, she's brilliant, right? I think so. Okay, so then Jon Hamm shows up. Now Jon Hamm, as stated, is the devastatingly handsome billionaire who cannot get over this middle aged mediocrity known as Jennifer Aniston. And he is going to beg her to accompany her on her suicide mission to Belarus to get Bradley Jackson back. Because if there's only one person who could do it, it's Jennifer Aniston. Here we go. She knows Ivanov. The we were trying to make everything.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (17:32)

I should have never reached out to him. I knew this could blow back on us. How the did she find out?

Tim McKay (17:37)

I don't know.

Meg Josephson (17:37)

I don't know.

Maureen Callahan (17:39)

She just told me that I have 24 hours to resign or. Or she's gonna call the feds.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (17:44)

Alex, that cannot happen. Nobody can find out about this.

Maureen Callahan (17:47)

I know. Bradley. What about Bradley? State Department already dragging its feet. Celine. She knew something like this would completely compromise. Compromise her case.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (18:00)

Bradley Jackson stuck in a gulag in Eastern Europe and she's still a human wrecking ball exposition.

Maureen Callahan (18:07)

Believe this? 22 years. This is how it ends. I work. So please. So, yeah, they're talking about Bradley in a gulag where, you know, sexual torture is a real thing. Okay, this. This show does not address it, but let's get real. And Jennifer Aniston immediately pivots back. I've been at that company for 22 years. This is how they do me.

Tim McKay (18:31)

It's all about her. Completely.

Maureen Callahan (18:33)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim McKay (18:34)

That's what you want to focus on right now. It's like, this is the way that I have to go out. Like, okay, well, there's also your friend being tortured in a different country right now.

Maureen Callahan (18:43)

Maybe possibly never to return. Now, there were some other things that I wanted to address with you, actually. Marlena. Producer Marlena texted this morning with some great observations. First of all, Tim, where is BRO.

Tim McKay (19:00)

Oh, yeah, they didn't include him in the finale. They talked about him. They mentioned him. Like, oh, what is it? Some conspiracy theory like BRO Would come up with? They just. All they think about right wing people is just that it's full of conspiracies, that everything is just a big conspiracy theory. And I'm like, this is just like such foolish representation. But I will say the one and only part of this episode I liked was like, the public. You know, the public outing of like, of a villain. Like, I always love when it's done well. And like, they almost did that. Well, they kind of did that here. Marion Courtyard. Like, it was silly, but I'm thinking about movies like Jawbreaker or Cruel Intentions. Like at the end when everyone finds out publicly, like, who the villain is. Like, I love when that happens. So I almost loved it in this show. But then, like, I don't know, I thought she'd be taken to jail or something. And she wasn't. Like, she just got on her plane and flew back home. So, yeah, I was almost loving it. I was almost loving it.

Maureen Callahan (19:50)

Jan Aniston would have tipped off the feds to be outside the UBN office building or outside of Marion Cotillard's office door to arrest her and per walk her in a collar for the ages. A star making case. But no, this is. This is again why I love this show, why I hate this show. Hate. Watch it. Jennifer Aniston decides to do what everybody tells her she can't possibly do again. Self righteous fury. She goes down to a courthouse in lower Manhattan to hold a press conference with, you know, the marble pillars behind her and all of that. And she's giving it in one of the most echoey places known to man. Like a broadcasting professional would be like, I need better acoustics. It can't be there. Right?

Tim McKay (20:37)

That's so true. That's so, so funny to hear. I didn't even think about that. That's so true. Yeah, it is very echoey.

Maureen Callahan (20:43)

She's echoing through the halls and then. And then. Okay, so it turns out in. In. In far too neat of US of a story wrap that. That the EPA mole was Corey's mother. Again, the epa. Like, you know this show, there's a brief moment where they're fighting in the control room and you hear in the background the news that they're broadcasting is the Dems like debating whether they should throw Joe Biden under the bus because, like, he can't possibly make it now. It's obviously the debate has happened. You know, there are all these like actual real world exciting news threads they could be following, but instead it's decades old EPA scandal, which is like the most boring, unsexy thing going. Like even real journalists struggle to report stories like that because they're so dull.

Tim McKay (21:34)

I know that is true. Like, I kind of like, I do love a show like SVU that like kind of has. Has current events in it.

Maureen Callahan (21:41)

So you're like from the headlines cases, you're like, oh, you know, I know that story.

Tim McKay (21:45)

Like, I know what they're doing here. Yeah. And. And this show does it. But I don't know if it's because Covid messed up everything. Like it delayed the show so much that like they like. Because then that happened. Like by the time they came out with season two or season three, I don't remember which one it was, it was like so much time had passed, so they had to go so further backwards. And. And I just feel like that that's why the show is so behind now. And I just feel like it's. We're. Yeah. Hearing of events that happened last year we don't care about. And you know.

Maureen Callahan (22:12)

Well, you know, this show's real problem is. So it was originally conceived as. And written as like a much different plot line. And then Matt, the Matt Lauer scandal exploded. So they ripped up everything that they had written and they decided to start from scratch and make the Mitch Kessler character, played by Steve Carell, a me too villain.

Tim McKay (22:33)

Really?

Maureen Callahan (22:34)

Yeah. Yeah. So it already set the show way back in their own timeline. And then by the time it aired, like everybody had forgotten about it. And nobody's buying Steve Carell as a sex pest. It's just not. It's just not happening. He was cast to play a different character than the one he wound up having to portray.

Tim McKay (22:54)

Is that what happened? Because I can so see that he doesn't seem like the hot, like, I don't know, almost like a Jon Hamm or something.

Maureen Callahan (23:00)

Exactly. John Hamm, who is, you know, deviant in real life. Go look at episode one of the Nerve. You know, just my opinion. You need an actor who feels dangerous. You need an actor who has edge and sexual magnetism where you could buy for several episodes that maybe these girls are making it up, you know, because they're trying to get ahead. And who wouldn't want to have sex with that guy? You know what I mean?

Tim McKay (23:24)

Yeah. No, I totally agree. I totally agree. So I find that so fascinating because I'm like, I wonder what the original show was supposed to be about. I wonder what that was. You know, what was the. Do you know what? The original.

Maureen Callahan (23:33)

I think it was just supposed to be sort of like the. The goings on and the infighting and the. The ego battles at, like a morning network. It was based on a nonfiction book about morning show wars.

Tim McKay (23:44)

You know, I didn't even know that. Wow.

Maureen Callahan (23:46)

Yeah. But no, Jennifer Aniston was turned into a me too firebrand, you know, and we end this episode. This is the worst, right? If you haven't seen this episode, it's a spoiler fast forward. But I thought the best way to end this episode would be Jennifer again refusing the offer of a billionaire to accompany her to a, like, a country where she too could actually get arrested and thrown in a gulag. Okay. No, I've got to do it on my own. I am a strong woman who's going to board my Gulf Stream 5 by myself and land in Belarus looking perfectly refreshed, perfect. My hair is perfect. I haven't slept on the plane. My clothes don't have a wrinkle on them, and I'm de planing I'm getting off the plane. I'm on the tarmac, which is freshly watered down, so it looks great at night. And here comes Bradley. Here come. They should have ended it on a cliffhanger. They should have ended it on a cliffhanger. We don't know what's happening to Bradley, if she's even still alive. And you know, but no, they wrap it up with a bow like the dullards they are over there.

Tim McKay (24:46)

I agree. I agree. I will say, just because I'm a little sensitive, that my eyes watered A little bit. When, like when they.

Maureen Callahan (24:53)

Sweet.

Tim McKay (24:54)

I'm not even joking, sweetheart. I think it was because we had to watch it so early this morning that like I was still tired maybe, but I. When, like when Bradley walks like towards her, I even said out loud, I was like, what are they gonna run to each other? And then they kind of do. And my eyes started watering. I was like, wait. And then the embrace. I don't know, I did find that a touch emotional just cause I'm a little bit of a softie, but. And I will say that Alex's hair looked very Rachel at the end of this episode. It was doing the flipping image thing and I don't, I don't know if she's bringing that back, but like I loved that like late 90s, early 2000s, when the hair went inwards and I noticed that they were doing that with her.

Maureen Callahan (25:27)

She had way too much volume at the Crown for a 16 hour flight.

Tim McKay (25:31)

I think that's so funny that you say that. She's like, I'm gonna see my disheveled, beaten up toward, like broken down friend and I'm gonna show up.

Maureen Callahan (25:37)

I get off a six hour flight looking a lot worse for wear, you know, and I don't like to fly coach. Like, I fly, I fly.

Tim McKay (25:44)

Before she got off, she was like, I want to make sure I look good, see my beaten up friend.

Maureen Callahan (25:47)

And you know what? I'm gonna, I'm kind of. I'm gonna try to knock a little bit of the sentimentality out of you, my friend, because they end the embrace. It's the soap opera hug. It's. It's the one shot with the two faces. You know, Real Housewives figured this out a long time ago. When you're hugging a castmate, either you're consoling them or you're trying to put them down a little bit. It's side to side. It's the faces go side to side so we can see, get the full expressions. It's never a hug that like. Like the back of somebody's head is in the shot, right? And so they were. Do. They were boarding the plane like that, like.

Tim McKay (26:21)

Exactly.

Maureen Callahan (26:21)

I fucking hate this show. I hate it.

Tim McKay (26:25)

You see right through it, Maureen. You see right through everything.

Maureen Callahan (26:28)

It's a gift and a curse. What can I say, Tim? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for going on this wild ride with me. And you know, we'll have to find a new hate watch very soon.

Tim McKay (26:39)

I mean, there's plenty. I feel like there's always a new show coming Out. We will definitely find another hate watch.

Maureen Callahan (26:43)

I have one in mind. I will text you.

Tim McKay (26:46)

Okay. And I just wanted to say really quick. I was reached out to by a troublemaker who was on the cruise.

Maureen Callahan (26:53)

No, on the Hallmark cruise.

Tim McKay (26:54)

On the Hallmark cruise. Her name is Donna Parker Fortney. And I just wanted to say thank you for reaching out and letting me know that you. She had a blast. She had the best time on the cruise. She already bought her tickets for the next cruise next year. And that makes me happy now that I know that there is another cruise, because I want to make sure I work on that again.

Maureen Callahan (27:09)

So I'm sure you will. And I love the overlap between the Hallmark movie viewer and the troublemakers. I love it. So.

Tim McKay (27:16)

Hi, Donna. Thank you for reaching out. And next time, maybe I'll see you on the cruise.

Maureen Callahan (27:21)

Sounds great. I'll talk to you soon, Tim.

Tim McKay (27:22)

Bye, Maureen.

Commercial Announcer (27:24)

Bye.

Maureen Callahan (27:25)

We're gonna follow this up really quickly with Jennifer Aniston's new boyfriend, who she gave, like, a. She. She made some brief comments about him. You know, the professional hypnotist who likes to go on Instagram and look dead into his iPhone, camera, and go, repeat after me. I am lovable. I am enough. I am worthy.

Tim McKay (27:52)

Because I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.

Maureen Callahan (27:57)

Jen Aniston is like, this guy is so special, and he's really making a huge contribution to the world. Okay, this is his most recent. This guy is so basic. He's a dummy. Okay? He's. He's dumb. He's clever enough to have hooked enough, like, worked his way into A list Hollywood circles and to now have an A list Hollywood girlfriend who is helping to move his merch and his shitty book, which I have here somewhere in. In this studio. And I misplaced it because it's, like, this thin and it's full of QR codes. Like, it's a pamphlet with QR codes. Anyway, he posts this to Instagram. He had a birthday party recently. She threw it for him, I guess. And the caption he wrote is, if this is a dream, I don't want to wake up. That's an original mind at work. Am I right? Am I right? I mean, this is the kind of thing you would see as, like, word art at, like, home goods. Get out. Get out. Okay, next up, we have troublemaker feedback. Back in a minute. If you're looking for a holiday gift that shows real taste, care, and personality, check out Firecracker Farm Hot Salt. It's the kind of gift that sparks joy and flavor. Now this is a small family run operation and they care deeply about quality and craft. I love this stuff. The flavor is a refined, savory heat. There's no brute force with this and it elevates everything from scrambled eggs to reverse seared steak to roasted veggies and even popcorn. The catch? It's small batch and in high demand. This is not an Amazon panic buy. It requires planning. They are going to sell out. So skip the forgettable filler. Think ahead. Get Firecracker Farm hot salt before it's gone. Get an actual gift instead of clutter that's going in the back of someone's pantry. Will it change your life? Yeah, it probably will. Go to Firecracker Farm and use Code the nerve for 10% off while you can. That's Firecracker Farm and you can thank me later. AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com that's.

Tim McKay (30:44)

R U-B-R-I-K.com Extra value meals are back for just $5. Get a savory and sweet sausage, egg and cheese McGriddles plus hash browns and a coffee only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary.

Actor (Billy Crudup's character or related role) (30:59)

Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.

Tim McKay (31:01)

And for delivery foreign.

Maureen Callahan (31:07)

We get into some of your feedback. We've got some recidivists to address. The first one is our sprightly 900 year old heroine who started showing up in my algorithm more than usual. Okay? And I am telling you, either Sarah Jessica Parker or one of her paid employees is watching the Nerve. Okay, remember when we did that little segment saying she was so full of shit for that mini interview she did for the New Yorker? The New Yorker is also watching the show because they're now running mini interviews. We did it first with our mini get out. And they're not even giving us credit for our intellectual property. And anyway, so Sarah Jessica Parker adorably does this mini interview with her mini tote bag and she's asked a mini question. Sarah, you're such a. You're such a literary icon. What? You're not just a dumb actress, you're a literary lion. What's the best place to read in New York City? And she goes the subway And I said, that is such. No real New Yorker is reading on a subway platform or on the subway because it's overrun with the mentally ill and drug addicted homeless people and real criminals who are looking for anybody to shove in front of a moving train or rob or sexually harass or masturbate in front of for real. So nobody's reading a book on the subway. And look what she posted. Look what she posted online. And if you are listening, you have got to go to the YouTube channel and watch this part because she is on the subway in full hair and makeup. The mane is full of like 80 pounds of hair extensions. And you know what else? She's. She's not even wearing like apple earbuds. Which if you really feel like you gotta listen to something on a lower volume, you can see a street smart New Yorker is going to conceal those with their hair or with a hat. So it looks like you are. All of your senses are fully operational. No, no, no. This trick gets on the train with her big like Beats by Dre headphones. You know, she's so hip. She's. She's like 85 years old, but she's really hip. Okay? So look at this, look at this. And then she's like. There's another clip of her, like walking down the subway platform. Like, she's such hot shit. I mean, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Now she has also been announced as the recipient of the upcoming I adore Carol Burnett. I adore Carol Burnett. I was raised on that show, okay? She is going to be awarded the Carol Burnett Award at the Golden Globes this year. And our eyes are all over it, okay? Just know that. And also there was an unveiling of an SJP wax figure. Listen, we're all going to take it down at the Nerve Awards, okay? And whoever made that wax figure, by the way, I suspect a secret troublemaker. Their troublemaker army is everywhere. It really is. Okay, to your emails. Hi, Maureen. This is troublemaker Naomi, fellow troublemaker and operative of the Nerve. I love it. She believes that the Nerve is doing the Lord's work. We appreciate that. We are. We take our mission very seriously here. As you know, I'm writing to share some intelligence I gathered this weekend on one Michelle Obama. I was in Barnes and Noble. I asked a cashier if she knew where the Michelle Obama books were. She directed. Oh, this was another customer who asked where the Michelle O. Books were. The cashier director directed her. Excuse me. All the way to a back corner in the store and said if you're unable to find any books there, we have an unopened box in the back. That means the book isn't moving and the Nerve is doing it its job. As we said, that book is gonna have hit the New York Times bestseller list in its first week out. But if we're doing our job, it drops right off a cliff, okay? And it does not survive. I couldn't help but smile and think what a fitting place it was to display Michelle Obama's piece of work in a box in the back in the dark, you know, so as not to pollute the actual literary art one can find in a bookstore. Couldn't agree with you more, Naomi. Dear Maureen, in response to your coverage of the second part of the A Rod documentary, I would like to suggest we refer to him from now on as Alexander. He belongs in the same category as his woodshed contemporaries William Marr and Andrew Cohen. Just my opinion. Say hey to Bill from Brooklyn for me. And please continue to have him on regularly. That's a done deal. He's a regular as okay as a mo bro. It's a mo bro writing. It's just easier to justify my watching fashion videos if I can pretend there's a chance Bill from Brooklyn will be making an appearance. Bill. By the way, troublemaker Bill from Brooklyn can relate. As discussed on an earlier Nerve, he used to sneak his neighbors, US weeklies, and star magazines up to his apartment and read them before they got home and even knew they were missing and then secretly redeposit them back in the mailbox. Maybe a felony, but you know, I think there's a statute of limitations on that. Keep your feedback coming. Email me at maureenevilmaycaremedia.com or DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, writer, or at the Nerve show. Remember to subscribe to the nerves substack. That's thenerveshow.substack.com and tonight I am going to be with Megan Kelly on her Anaheim stop of her live tour. I cannot wait for this. And I'll also be doing the meet and greet. So if you've got tickets for that, I really I cannot wait to see troublemakers out in the wild. Coming up, navigating. Excuse me. I'm already getting a little stress voice. My nerves, you know. Okay. Coming up, navigating the holidays, our friend Meg Josephson, the New York Times bestselling author of the phenomenal book are you mad at me? Which is for people pleasers everywhere. I don't normally love self help books at all. I love this book. I love this book and I love Meg. She will be with us to talk all of our dilemmas as Thanksgiving approaches. We will see you in a minute. If you have ever read the label on a typical bag of chips, you know. You know you're poisoning yourself. Just my opinion. It's a science experiment of seed oils, MSG dyes and vague natural flavors. But still, sometimes you just want the chips. There is an answer. Vandy Crisps Vandy is part of the growing movement to bring back real food. They're made of just three ingredients. 100% pesticide free potatoes, sea salt and grass fed beef tallow. No junk. These chips taste amazing and they leave you feeling light, energized and satisfied. No crash, no bloat or mindless endless binging to follow. 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Maureen Callahan (39:59)

The holidays are upon us. Us. And we're going to talk about the holidays in a very nerve way. The holidays can be really brutal, okay? There's a lot of stress baked in family events, complicated family dynamics, guests who are going to be there who you would rather not deal with. People who somehow have a way of like activating all of your worst insecurities, your tender spots. To say nothing of the way politics has just fractured families like crazy. For some people, it's one of the loneliest times. Whether you're alone or with other people, there's so much pressure to have the perfect picture postcard version of Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah, whatever you may observe or celebrate. So today we have one of the nerves favorites. Okay? Meg Josephson came on back when we were a true baby show and she was promoting her new book which has since become a New York Times bestseller. Are you mad at me? Which is an incredible book. If you suffer from people pleasing as so many of us do, this is the book for you. And she has come to the Nerve to help us work through some of our questions, your questions, anxieties, concerns. So Meg, welcome back to the Nerve.

Meg Josephson (41:29)

Thank you, thank you so much for having me and for that warm and kind introduction.

Maureen Callahan (41:33)

Oh, we're so thrilled to see you and congratulations on the book's well deserved success.

Meg Josephson (41:40)

I appreciate it.

Maureen Callahan (41:41)

Okay, we're gonna get into it. This, this question comes from one of our original troublemakers from like day one. As a fawner in recovery, you speak about, about fawners in Are you mad at me? How do I loosen the grip of how can I make the holidays extra special for everyone at the cost of my health, sanity and oh, my budget?

Meg Josephson (42:03)

Oh well, it's such an understandable and relatable feeling and something that's so important to remember about people pleasing. And the fawn response in general is that we, we find safety in doing more, in trying harder. And so I imagine historically perhaps that has been say for you of I need to try harder to be loved. I need to be perfect. Major air quotes to be loved. And of course that tendency and pattern is going to spill into the holidays where it's supposed to be this expression of love where we're, we're showing people how much we love them. I Two things come to mind. The first one being let's first acknowledge and accept that that voice that says you're not Doing enough will continue to be the there. And that's okay because that's a protective part of you that's working really hard to keep you safe. But this is an instance where we don't need that voice. And so we're going to notice that voice without giving it power. I think more tangibly, it's helpful to almost. And when you're in a grounded, calm place, define what enough is this holiday season so that you can come back to that reminder. When that anxious voice is telling you you need to do more or try harder or be more perfect, you can come back to this reminder from your past self.

Maureen Callahan (43:21)

Very good advice. Okay, next question. You are sitting at the holiday dinner table and a sensitive topic comes up. There's always one shit stir, of course. What is your advice, Meg, on the best way to approach, minimize or diffuse this type of conversation?

Meg Josephson (43:42)

Oh, it's so tricky. It's such a tricky balance of when is this not worth getting involved in and when am I neglecting myself by not speaking up? And I find that to be a very challenging balance to find and only you can really know, I think, what that feels like to you. In my book, I talk about this practice of leaning back where we're still in the room, but we're practicing leaning back. So I want you to actually lean back in your chair at the table. Physically do it.

Maureen Callahan (44:12)

Physically lean back.

Meg Josephson (44:13)

Physically press your back against that chair.

Maureen Callahan (44:16)

What does that do for you? What does that tell the brain?

Meg Josephson (44:18)

It's telling the brain we're slowing down. I don't need to lean in so much. I can release some of this urgency. I want you to lean back and take a few deep breaths. And that small shift, it'll take two seconds to do, but you're going to be able to see the situation a bit more clearly where you're not immediately reacting just by inserting that pause and inserting that breath, you're going to respond instead. You might choose to involve yourself, you might choose to not. But just by inserting that pause, you're able to see the situation from a clearer lens.

Maureen Callahan (44:51)

This is how you'll know if you have a troublemaker at your table. They lean back. They're going to lean back. This Thanksgiving during a. During a tricky convo. Yeah. Okay. When a family member keeps putting you down. And I would like to get into this in the sense of. Because this is. This is how I've experienced it with my own extended family. These are often insults couched as jokes.

Meg Josephson (45:19)

Yes.

Maureen Callahan (45:19)

Or like, my familiarity with you is such That I can just poke you a little bit, even though I'm really trying to insult you. How do you deal with that?

Meg Josephson (45:28)

Oh, it's so challenging. I think the first. First of all, releasing this expectation that you'll be able to make them understand that it was hurtful or trying to get them to see your side. I don't know if that's possible in this lifetime for that person. And so I think instead it's shifting the focus to how can I move through this? Instead of like, how can I fix the other person or control the other person, how can I allow myself to move through the discomfort of this? I actually find it be a quite a powerful response to let it kind of hang there for a second instead of immediately, you know, getting defensive. Or maybe your usual script that you go to letting it, Let it be there for a second, choose a new way. Or maybe you would say, sorry, can you repeat that? Or what did you mean by that? Or just allow there to be some openness or curiosity and space with what they said. And this isn't to say, oh, they'll have this light bulb moment that it was hurtful and they shouldn't have done that. But I think just choosing a new way, you're automatically breaking the script and therefore breaking the pattern, at least for one of us.

Maureen Callahan (46:44)

Would you recommend, Meg, that people actually practice that before, like a big gathering, a big dinner? I have to say, like, you know when you wrote about the fawn response in your book and how the response is sort of like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to de escalate this by just, you know, smoothing the feathers of the person who's really causing me problems. I find that in family dynamics like that, they're so well established and it's considered part of the lingua franca. Oh, this is just how we relate. We mock each other, we hurt each other, we hurl some insults that your actual reflexive nature can be to just sort of like, try to laugh it off or minimize it or respond in a way that kind of moves it along. And I think you'd really kind of have to practice, right? Like, there's a discomfort in that. In that, in that quiet of letting a question hang or a statement hang on.

Meg Josephson (47:39)

It's wildly uncomfortable. And I would say family dynamics, these are the big leagues of conflict boundaries. That is, that takes a lot of discomfort tolerance. I think, leading up to the holidays, whatever day you're watching this, if you can practice on someone that feels safe, if you're practicing setting A boundary, even if it's just like talking to a friend. Hey, I only have 30 minutes to chat. What's up?

Maureen Callahan (48:05)

Up.

Meg Josephson (48:05)

You're. You're setting a boundary on the time. Start with someone that feels safe and small. Because if we start right away with someone that we know will have a big reaction, it will feel very shocking to the nervous system. And I also want to validate that when we return to old environments, no matter how much work we've done, no matter how much therapy we've been to and how much healing we've accomplished, we will kind of revert back to our old ways. Because our bodies in this environment with these people, that we associate it with this past time in our lives, more often than not, we're more reactive in these old environments because our body is like, oh, I'm, I'm 12 again, or I'm 19 again.

Maureen Callahan (48:49)

Interesting. Yeah. So there's like a physiological reaction that can help explain why a lot of these dynamics not just perpetuate, but they, they, they're really very alive. Very alive.

Meg Josephson (49:03)

And this is why leaning back, breathing, slowing down is so important. Because by doing so, we're coming into the present. We're telling our bodies we're here. Now it's 20, 25. I am X years old. I'm not in that age. So by coming into the present, by coming into our bodies now, we're telling our bodies we're not there, we're here.

Maureen Callahan (49:26)

What about just removing yourself and going for a walk?

Meg Josephson (49:30)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, don't underestimate just the power of space and agency. I think a question to ask yourself all the time with people pleasing. Do I need to be people pleasing right now? Do I need to do this right now? What would happen if I took a walk around the block? Like, I think the holidays. I'm all for having hard conversations and facing conflict head on, having productive, honest conversations. I don't. The holidays aren't always the best time to do that. So I think the focus should instead be, how can I move through this? How can I get through this? How can I soothe myself, take walks, take breaks, go to the bathroom and just sit there for a few minutes to collect yourself, do what you need to do. Take in small bites of regulation so that you can feel okay.

Maureen Callahan (50:24)

I love that. Okay, what okay, you are feeling. What do you do if you are feeling pressured to attend a family event or be around a family member that you do not want to be around? And we've talked about this a bit before, Meg, you know, the Idea that it's usually the most chaotic, difficult family member that the family bends itself gymnastically around to try to appease, to try to accommodate, rather than looking at that person as the problem and trying to nullify that problem.

Meg Josephson (50:58)

You know, of course, and the holidays are hard because will it be the time where other family members are open to hearing how this person is dysfunctional and there will be probably not. Like, it's probably going to be the traditional. It's exactly what always happens. And so what I like to say is first asking yourselves, do I have to go? Is this necessary? Sometimes it is. Sometimes, you know, for whether it's your culture, whether it's whatever dynamic is happening, you do have to be there. But then asking yourself what's absolutely necessary and what is less necessary? Maybe a better question is, if I could set any boundary in the world, what would I want do? Okay, Knowing that, what can I do? What's actually possible here? Maybe it's leaving early. Maybe it's excusing yourself halfway through to take a bathroom break and take a few deep breaths. What are some things that you can integrate to allow it to be easier on yourself as opposed to kind of white knuckling it, being like, well, I have to do this as I always do, and I have to do it perfectly. What can be different this year so that you can move through it with more ease?

Maureen Callahan (52:13)

How do you set a boundary, Meg, if, let's say, you're traveling a great distance to go home for the holidays and you have family, be they parents or siblings or in laws, who are insisting that you stay with them, and you would much rather stay in a hotel because, you know, for everybody's sanity, it's going to be better. But then the would be hosts start guilt tripping you and saying, well, what, we're not good enough? Or, you know, we want to see you, you don't want to see us? Like, how do you deal with that? That.

Meg Josephson (52:43)

Yeah, stay in the hotel, it's okay. They will not understand. If they will. If they're taking it personally, if they're taking it as rejection, that doesn't mean that you have to internalize that that's there. You're breaking the script, right? Like, you're going. You're doing something unfamiliar. They're naturally going to have discomfort simply because it's new, not because you're doing something bad. And so often feel guilt like, oh, maybe I'm a bad daughter, son or whomever because I'm. I'm not pleasing them. But so often we Feel guilt not because we're doing something bad, but because we're doing something new.

Maureen Callahan (53:22)

I love this.

Meg Josephson (53:23)

So having that distinction is, is really important. Also, let's read, let's define what is a boundary. A boundary is not saying to the other person you need to do this. A boundary is about what we will do. So for example, if it was, I'll give a non holiday example. And then a holiday example of a boundary isn't stop calling me while I'm at work. A boundary is I wanted you to know if you call me at work, I'm not going to be able to get back to you until my lunch break.

Maureen Callahan (53:51)

Yes.

Meg Josephson (53:52)

It's about what we will do in around the holidays if someone starts name calling or yelling at you. It's not stop yelling at me, it's I'm going to leave the room if you keep talking to me like that. And so it's focusing back on our behaviors. So maybe it's, I will be my best self if I'm rested and have my space. I need alone time and I will be able to show up to the house ready to go, ready to socialize, ready to be with you if I have my own space. That is such a beautiful boundary.

Maureen Callahan (54:23)

I love that. And I also love what you said about sometimes we feel guilt not because we're doing something wrong, but because we're doing something new. I would also also argue that sometimes we feel guilt when we're doing something that's actually really good for us. And that is so often framed as being selfish. And it's. I don't think it is. I think it's akin to that adage of put on your own oxygen mask when the plane's going down before you put on your child's or your partners. Like you have to take care of yourself before you can be any good for anybody.

Meg Josephson (54:53)

Absolutely. And that is. Let's even talk about what what is. What is guilt? Guilt says it's. It's a messenger. And it says I did something bad. I did something that wasn't in alignment with my values. Okay. You staying in a hotel so that you can be your best self when you go stay with your family, when you go visit your family. Is that out of alignment? Is. Are you doing something bad there or are you actually just taking their discomfort and metabolizing it as guilt because you've learned to. That you're responsible for other people's emotions.

Maureen Callahan (55:23)

Yeah. Yes.

Meg Josephson (55:24)

You're not doing anything bad in doing that. So it's an important distinction.

Maureen Callahan (55:29)

And I Think that's also very key to keep in mind during the entirely stressful holiday season. You aren't responsible for other people's emotions. You'll never, ever regulate somebody else's emotions. You know, it's impossible to do. So. This is a question I've seen quite a bit. If you are divorcing or splitting up and you don't want to announce to the entire extended family during the holidays, but you're also really struggling to put on a united front and there are children involved, what is your best advice? Do you maybe just opt out of a big holiday event this year? Or, you know, if you're worried that you're gonna send antenna up, why are you doing that? Like, what's the best way to preserve your own integrity and emotional. Just safety during a really traumatic time like that?

Meg Josephson (56:26)

Yeah. That's such a hard situation to navigate. And I don't think that there's one size fits all for, you know, one family. One person might have something might feel good versus what will feel good for another person. I think starting with the question of what do I need?

Maureen Callahan (56:44)

Need.

Meg Josephson (56:44)

What do I need here? What's. What's the need of mine that needs. That has to be met in this situation is that, am I craving quality time with my children? Am I. Am I craving quality time with my extended family? And I just. I need to make it work without disclosing something I'm not ready to disclose. I think it totally depends on your family situation. But starting with that question of what do I need?

Maureen Callahan (57:10)

Need?

Meg Josephson (57:10)

Because when we shove down that question, that's when resentment happens, that's when anger happens. We feel like, oh, I'm doing something for everyone else and not for me.

Maureen Callahan (57:20)

Yeah.

Meg Josephson (57:21)

So starting with the question of what do I need? What's happening here? That's the way to go. And I think your intuition will. Will let you in on where to go from there.

Maureen Callahan (57:30)

Meg, what do you do if you've got. Let's say you're not hosting or you are hosting and you've got a family member or a guest who says, I'm not coming. If so, and so is there, I'm not coming because that person either voted in a way that I don't agree with or believes in something that I find offensive. You know, we are currently in an era where I read one too many, like, syndicated advice columnists who've been in the game for a very long time say, you know what? It's the moral thing to do. You should absolutely excise family members or friends who don't agree with you. What do you. How do you handle that? If somebody lays down an ultimatum, I won't be there. If so. And so is there.

Meg Josephson (58:14)

Well, it's a really good. So in that situation, that person, if that's their boundary, because that's what they're doing, I will not attend if this person is there. They're allowed to not attend if that person is there. But you as the host, you get to decide what are your needs. What's happening for you. Is it so important that that person is the person that. How am I saying this? The person that the other person is saying they can't be there. Is it important for that person to be at the. At the table for you? Just because they. If they are having a need that they're meeting for themselves, you're also allowed to have the people that you want. Want at your table. And so I. I think of it similarly. What do I need? Who do I want there? And I think you can respect other people's decisions, but you can also have a stance and opinion that is different. I think it's tricky if. If this family member is abusive or really toxic. Of course, I think that's where the conversation changes. If someone's like, this person abused me, I'm not going. I think the conversation certainly changes. I think we're talking about lighter topics in this instance.

Maureen Callahan (59:30)

Yeah. We're not talking about abusing children. Yeah. Violence.

Meg Josephson (59:35)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (59:35)

Alcoholism, that is destructive. But I do. I'm gonna. I'm gonna move it into an area that I think far too many of us have had experience with. And that's like the sleazy male relative. Okay.

Meg Josephson (59:48)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (59:48)

You wouldn't necessarily put in the abuser category.

Meg Josephson (59:51)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (59:52)

But is definitely inappropriate and like a sleaze and is likely married to somebody you really love.

Meg Josephson (59:58)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (59:59)

You know, how do you deal with that guy?

Meg Josephson (60:01)

Oh, it's so hard. And again, I think it just. It just depends on what your. What your relationship to. Like, who are you? What's your relationship to different people? What feels. Which relationships are safe to you. But I think as the person hosting, you have power. You have agency to decide who is let into your home. It's such an intimate thing. You get to decide who is brought into that really intimate gathering. And so I think attuning to maybe asking, why am I inviting this person? Am I inviting this person because I. It's coming from a people pleasy place or is because I really want them here? And there might be an instance where you have to. You you have to. You feel like you have to invite them. Or it would. It feels worth it to invite them anyway. Or maybe not. You might be like, you know what? It's going to be a smaller Thanksgiving this year. But I think that question is important. Why am I doing this? What is my motive? What's my intention? In which whatever you choose, you're already breaking the pattern because you're looking inward first. Remember that people pleasing is all about looking outward to approve your decision. So I'm going to invite this person just because I know it'll please everyone else just by looking in. Well, what do I think of this?

Maureen Callahan (61:26)

First?

Meg Josephson (61:26)

You're already healing because you're choosing. You're looking in before immediately looking out.

Maureen Callahan (61:31)

Meg, how do you know the difference between people pleasing and going? You know what? There are battles worth fighting and there are battles worth avoiding. And if I exclude this family member because of their partner, you know, because he's a little sleazy, or I don't like the way, you know.

Meg Josephson (61:51)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (61:52)

You know, it's a fine line, right? Because you want to be true to yourself and you want to say, like, hey, I don't want to be talked to like that or looked at like that or, you know, someone trying to touch me. Me versus, you know what? It's once a year. It keeps the peace with the relative I really do love. She's never going to leave this guy. Like, how? Like, how do you know when you're like, is there like, is it like just a gut feeling where you're like, okay, like, I'm being pretty true to myself right now?

Meg Josephson (62:17)

You're exactly right. And this is where. This is where I'm always saying it depends and what do you feel and what do you need? Because there we are pro social beings, right? We crave harmony, we crave family and connection. And so it's never boundaries. I think we talk about them in mainstream psychology in a very simplified way where it's like, just do this or just do that. It's never that simple. We have different relationships that we're balancing.

Maureen Callahan (62:43)

Yeah.

Meg Josephson (62:44)

So I think understanding first, being attuned to your inner world, being attuned to what's happening for you, but knowing that it's not necessarily a per. It's not black or white. It's not going to be like, this is perfect or it's this. There's always going to be some give and take. So I think of it more as, like, what's worth it to me? What am I prioritizing here? If you, if you're kind of sleazy relative, is really close to the aunt that you love and you really want to see her, is it worth it? It might be worth it for him to come in order for you to see her. And so you're always. I think we're always weighing the pros and cons with these sorts of things.

Maureen Callahan (63:23)

Yeah.

Meg Josephson (63:25)

But I also. I have in my book, too, this distinction of.

Maureen Callahan (63:28)

Of.

Meg Josephson (63:28)

Of when am I avoiding conflict and when am I just avoiding drama? Avoiding drama is like, I'm not going to get involved in this conversation because you can't change, and this is exhausting. So I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna observe what's happening versus avoiding conflict. Might be. I'm feeling so resentful, but I'm not gonna say anything because I need to be easy and perfect and good. And so knowing that distinction to why am I avoiding this? Where is this coming from? Is also an important process.

Maureen Callahan (63:59)

I couldn't agree with you more.

Meg Josephson (64:01)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (64:01)

This is a question we got from someone, and I. I know it's so common, and this is like, this is where the inner child really, really comes alive. During the holidays. Your parents are divorced. Oh, yeah. They live far away from each other, and it's a constant tug. Which parent do you spend the holidays with? Yeah. What do you do? And especially what do you do if you feel whether, let's say you've got a relative. I know I have so many friends with this issue. Older parent, widowed or widower, living alone. And it's a. There's a tug. There's a feeling like, well, we gotta spend every holiday with this person because they don't have anybody else. Like, how. So let's take the divorced segment of that first. Okay. You've got divorced parents. You might be in your 30s, you might be in your 40s and married with your own kids. But it's a thing. Who are you. Who are you spending Christmas with this year, Thanksgiving with this year, Hanukkah? What do you do?

Meg Josephson (65:03)

Oh, well, first, I think it's so important to acknowledge the grief in both of those examples that you gave the divorced or the elder parent. The grief of what things are, aren't. And I think holidays really amplify our deepest wounds because our expectations come out of what we wish it could be. If you wish that it was so simple and you could just be with your family, or if you wish it, it was that you could be in two places at once acknowledging grief about a relationship that won't ever be what you want it to be, or acknowledging grief that, you know, you won't maybe have that, that parental or sibling or partner relationship that you really long for. Acknowledging that grief is really important because I think sometimes that grief can kind of fog our lens of how we're seeing it and we're acting from that place of, well, maybe I'll just overextend myself and do what I really don't want to do because maybe this year will be different. Maybe this year it'll be the year I've been hoping for, and it won't be because that same wound is going to repeat itself. So I'm speaking more broadly here of just first acknowledging that grief. You'll have to remind me what your initial question was before I went.

Maureen Callahan (66:23)

So your parents are divorced, okay. And they live far away from each other. And it's a battle, like whether it's overt or covert guilt. Yeah. You mean you're gonna go spend Thanksgiving with your father again this year? Yeah, it's my turn this year. Why aren't you coming to me? You know, I'm alone. I miss you. I don't get to see the grandkids that often, you know? And you really want to be over with the father.

Meg Josephson (66:49)

Yeah.

Maureen Callahan (66:50)

Like, that's just for one example.

Meg Josephson (66:51)

Yeah. Well, I think this is a good, A good example of it becomes, it becomes black or white. It becomes this or that. It becomes their feelings of rejection. The either parent starts to get involved and then you're taking care of their discomfort. You're managing their emotions and neglecting your needs in the process. So again, I think first, starting from that place of like, well, what do I want? If I could do anything I wanted this year, where. Where would I go? Which parent would I go to? Okay, and now given the, given the circumstance, what's possible? Is it that I'm going to mom and we're having an hour long facetime with dad? Is, is it vice versa? Like, what am I actually able to do given the circumstances? But I think this is a perfect example of that. Pros and cons of like, no, there won't be a perfect situation here. Either way, there's going. Someone's going to be disappointed, someone's going to feel hurt, someone's going to be uncomfortable. That's going to happen. Which would I rather have? Which path of discomfort would I rather have? Would I rather do what I want and disappoint this parent? Or would I rather neglect my needs and please the other parent? Either way, there's some discomfort to have to swallow. Which one would I rather have this year? That's the path I would take.

Maureen Callahan (68:11)

Okay, I'm gonna ask you something that I went through all the time as a kid, and I would fight with my mother constantly about this, and she would be like, just do it. Yeah, okay. Thanksgiving, the only people who were asked to help shop prep.

Meg Josephson (68:28)

I already know what you're gonna say.

Maureen Callahan (68:29)

And clean up the girls and the women drives me nuts. It drives me up the wall. And then you've got the men in the living room watching football with their feet up going, where's my coffee and dessert? Like, belching, you know, and it's like, it would be considered anathema to ask them to lift a finger 100%.

Meg Josephson (68:50)

Oh, I cannot relate to this more. And also, even if you were to say, okay, I'm going to delegate this year, you need to do this. You need to this. Can we acknowledge you're still taking on the emotional labor because you are still the one managing and organizing the cleaning and the cooking by. Even by delegating, you're doing that. I think assigning roles ahead of time is very important so that people can go into the holiday knowing what there is expected from them and making it clear. Having clear communication, being direct. It's really easy to fall into passive aggression of like, well, I guess I'll just do it all by myself. Or practicing clear, honest, direct communication about this needs to get done. This is who's going to do it.

Maureen Callahan (69:42)

It.

Meg Josephson (69:42)

Yes, there will be grumbles, there will be eye rolls, whatever. But at the very least, some resentment will be soothed because you're communicating that.

Maureen Callahan (69:52)

What do you do, though, if you find yourself, like, maybe it's not your. You're not hosting and you're not saying, hey, guy X over here. I need you to, like, bring, you know, car. The main thing they do is carve up the turkey. That's what the man does. That's it. And, you know, you think he was a returning hero, you know, but how do you deal if you find yourself and you're like, oh, my God, it's just girls. It's just women in the kitchen. And like, I. Cause I always think, like, kind of what messaging is this? Sending, like, younger girls in the room that, like, domesticity is just the realm of women, you know? And like, you can't. You can't. You can't say anything because you're a guest, you know?

Meg Josephson (70:28)

But I see in the guest. In the guest space, I think I. Choosing someone as in. As an Ally in that situation, whether it's a fellow girl or woman, whether it's a man, a good egg in the men group of like whether it's your partner or your brother that you adore or your cousin, someone that is a trusted person amongst any of these people and supporting each other, I think in dividing up the work so that it doesn't have to all fall on you. And I also think it can be done in a not like fun way, but I think it can be done in a, in a light hearted way without self gaslighting. Without. Yeah, you know, it can be like hey guys, what the heck? Are we just gonna be out and doing it on our own? It can be like fun but also you don't need to diminish what you're feeling because this is such a common problem, especially around the holidays, but also always. And it's okay to feel it, but I think having someone to support you in that, whether it's, whether it's the someone from the woman crowd or the man crowd, I think is helpful in that.

Maureen Callahan (71:44)

Yes. So just a message to those manly men out there who watch the Nerve even though they're have lots of straight sex and work blue collar jobs. You can help load the dishwasher and clear the table. And it goes a long way. Goes a long way.

Meg Josephson (72:02)

I would also say, don't say what can I do to help?

Maureen Callahan (72:05)

Just do it. Just help. Just do it.

Meg Josephson (72:07)

Just do it. Because they're probably gonna say, oh please, take a seat, have a beer. No, get up, just do it. Be helpful. Do something that you don't usually do each year.

Maureen Callahan (72:18)

I love it. I guess we'll leave it there.

Meg Josephson (72:20)

Guess so.

Maureen Callahan (72:21)

Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on the Nerve and helping us out.

Meg Josephson (72:23)

Thank you for having me.

Maureen Callahan (72:24)

Anytime, holiday season.

Meg Josephson (72:26)

Anytime, any holiday. I'll be here.

Maureen Callahan (72:29)

Awesome. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye. And well, that's it. That's it with Meg. She's amazing. We love her. We love her. She's got like the best, most level headed, commonsensical advice and the big takeaway I think is that you will never change any of your troublesome relatives or you know, usual guests at any given holiday gathering. So it's really just a, it's like really. I think what it is is just getting yourself in the right headspace to deal with it as best you possibly can. And if you want to leave early, take off early. That's it. That does it. That does it. For our Friday edition of the Nerve, come back and see us tomorrow on our mini oh my God, I can't wait. I cannot wait for this one. One of my favorite people and one of my least favorite people. And it's going to be averse. Okay, that drops on YouTube at 10am Eastern on Saturday. And if you haven't already, check out our substack atthe nerve show.substack.com Be sure to subscribe. It's like five bucks a month and it helps the show to grow. Plus your nerve merch. Grab something for yourself or pick something up for a fellow troublemaker@shop thenerve.com Also, the nerve is now available on Megan's podcast playlist every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 9am Eastern on the SiriusXM channel 111, which is now the Megan Kelly Channel. We will see you tomorrow for the Mini and then again next week right here at the Nerve, where you will never guess what we're about to say next. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving report. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast I've.

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