Justin Bieber's Feud with Usher, Savannah Guthrie's Return Strategy, and JFK Jr.'s Dark Side

Summary

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The Nerve with Maureen Callahan

Episode: Justin Bieber's Feud with Usher, Savannah Guthrie's Return Strategy, and JFK Jr.'s Dark Side
Date: March 25, 2026
Guest: Rob Shooter (Naughty But Nice Substack)

Episode Overview

Maureen Callahan delivers a scathing, deeply skeptical breakdown of pop culture, reality TV, and the disturbing realities behind the scenes. Joined by celebrity reporter Rob Shooter, the episode journeys through the hypocrisy of television networks, the exploitation in reality TV, the dark sides of celebrity mentorships (including explosive details of the Justin Bieber/Usher feud), and an unsparing dissection of the Kennedy mythos through the lens of Ryan Murphy's "Love Story." The tone is unsparing, direct, darkly humorous, and refuses to accept the sanitized versions sold by mainstream media or industry PR.

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Major Topics and Key Discussion Points

1. The Bachelorette Scandal and Reality TV’s “Rotten Core”

[06:20–14:49]

• ABC’s Cancellation Decision:
  ABC (owned by Disney) cancels the latest season of The Bachelorette after viral resurfacing of cast member Taylor Frankie Paul assaulting her boyfriend—despite ABC's prior knowledge of her violent past.
• Corporate Complicity:
  "It goes right to the top. They all knew. They all approved her. They even humiliated people who work for ABC, including Lara Spencer on GMA and Kelly Ripa on her show, the day before they canceled." (Rob Shooter, [07:26])
• Ratings Over Morality: ABC executives ignored the red flags for ratings, only pulling the plug when advertisers dropped out.
• Child Endangerment:
  Maureen is forceful about the appalling disregard for the safety of children in pursuit of TV drama.
  "This is everything you say they knew at ABC and they don't care that a small child...is in danger with this woman. She's ratings. So nobody gives a sh—" (Maureen, [11:27])
• Industry Hypocrisy:
  Parallels drawn to Matt Lauer’s scandal (including the notorious “rape button”) to show repeated, institutional cover-ups.

Notable Quote:
“It’s a feature. Exactly. It’s a feature.” – Maureen Callahan [09:46]

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2. The Duggar Family, TLC, and Reality TV Exploitation

[14:49–22:40]

• TLC's Duggar Disaster:
  Newly uncovered sexual abuse allegations against another Duggar—a pattern of network protection, PR manipulation, and calculated ignorance.
• First-hand Experience:
  Rob recounts being pressured by TLC PR to “take down the gay a notch” before interviewing the Duggars.
  “I had to promise to take down the gay a notch—they didn't want...” (Rob, [16:46])
• Always-On Cameras:
  Discussion about the 24/7 surveillance nature of reality TV and production's ability to bury damaging content.
• Mental Health Manipulated:
  Psychological support on reality shows exists to exploit vulnerabilities, not actually help.
  “They were there almost as spies, almost as investigators to find out what is your sore spot, what is the button we can press.” (Rob, [20:37])

Notable Quote:
“If you’re on reality TV and you think you need to avail yourself of the services of a mental health professional, go outside the set, do not trust anybody production brings in.” – Maureen Callahan [20:07]

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3. Industry Decay: The Messy Line Between News, Ratings, and Human Cost

[23:19–24:06]

• Exploitation Relentlessly Marketed:
  Rob and Maureen describe ABC moving the Bachelorette through their promo machine (GMA, Kelly & Mark, Oscars carpet) even as controversy thickened, exposing the dehumanizing marketing machinery.
• Victims as Perpetrators:
  Frustration at media’s inclination to frame abusers as misunderstood victims with “trauma” narratives.

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4. The Justin Bieber/Usher Oscar Feud: Abuse, Betrayal, and Mentorship

[24:06–29:23]

• Feud Revealed:
  On Oscar night, beef boils over as Justin Bieber accuses Usher of failing to protect him from the predatory world of Diddy, pointing to industry ‘mentorship’ as camouflage for child exploitation.
• Usher’s Responsibility:
  Usher introduced Bieber, as a child, to Diddy’s notorious parties.
  “Usher introduced Justin Bieber. He found him as a teenager. He was strumming a guitar on the internet... One of the first people that Usher introduced Justin to was Diddy as a teenager.” (Rob, [25:52])
• Public Trauma:
  Maureen speculates that Usher may have been victimized himself and normalizing this cycle.
  “Usher may have been interfered with as a young man. That guy Diddy is a monster.” (Maureen, [27:42])
• Justin’s Mental Health:
  Both agree Bieber is visibly fragile and would be better off leaving the industry behind.

Notable Quote:
“He was hanging out there for weeks... Now he’s an adult... and he’s furious about it. Nobody protected him.” – Rob Shooter [26:03]

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5. Celebrity Culture’s Casual Cruelty: Chapel Roan and Jude Law’s Daughter

[29:23–31:52]

• Incident:
  Musician Chapel Roan’s security harasses Jude Law’s 11-year-old daughter for wanting to say hello at a hotel breakfast.
• Celebrity Entitlement:
  Chapel Roan’s "non-denial, denial" critique and the impact of one negative celebrity encounter on a child’s life.
• Set the Bar:
  Security behavior reflects explicit boundaries set by the celebrity, not a misunderstanding.

Notable Quote:
“If you ever see a little kid light up when they encounter someone who's famous... It's the sweetest, purest thing. And to just shit all over that because you need to feel important and make a child cry...” – Maureen Callahan [31:58]

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6. Savannah Guthrie’s Return and The Today Show's War Gaming

[33:39–36:30]

• Ratings and Tragedy:
  Discussion of NBC's machinations for Savannah Guthrie’s return after her mother’s disappearance—focusing on the ratings bump, not suffering.
  "Behind closed doors, it’s war gaming: How we get Savannah back, what day, for how many minutes, what time slot, where we get that ratings bump where we most fatally wound GMA." (Maureen, [35:07])
• Tone-Deaf Programming:
  Hoda Kotb’s “Joy 101” retreat proceeds regardless of the missing mother crisis.
• Countdown Coverage:
  Networks discuss giving Savannah’s return an “Olympics-style” countdown clock—Maureen and Rob savage this as "ghoulish."

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7. Nepo Babies: Sofia Coppola’s Daughter, Romy, and the Privilege Paradox

[39:52+]

• The Exhibit A:
  Maureen plays a viral TikTok by Romy Coppola, highlighting her flippant attitude toward privilege, references to parental absence, and drug use in childhood.
• Mainstream Media’s Double Standard:
  Sofia still lauded by Elle magazine and others, despite evidence of abdicated parenting.
• Note on Nepo Baby Distance:
  "If you're a woman who would like to have as part of your package like an actual personality and a point of view, you don't want to be Sofia Coppola." (Maureen)

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8. Kennedy Mythbusting: JFK Jr., Carolyn Bessette, and the Real Darkness

[52:00+]

• Ryan Murphy’s “Love Story” Critiqued:
  Maureen recaps episode 8—and attacks its romanticization and revisionist take on John and Carolyn’s doomed marriage.
• The REAL Fights:
  Maureen enumerates the destructive, drug-fueled, and mutually abusive reality behind the Kennedy marriage:
  "Carolyn's extremely heavy cocaine use. John's magazine failing... Anthony Radziwill dying... Both of them cheating on each other all through their relationship..."
• Kennedy Cover-Ups and Double Standards:
  Unvarnished accounts of Michael Kennedy’s abuse of his underage babysitter, John Jr.’s enabling of rapist boxers and cousins—the real carnage behind the myth.
• John Jr.’s Emotional Emptiness and the Final Flight:
  Maureen forcefully posits the theory that JFK Jr.'s crash was a murder-suicide born of entitlement, failure, and an inability to cope with public downfall:
  "He had zero emotional calluses. He had zero emotional or psychological scar tissue... You think this guy was going to be able to handle that level of public humiliation?"

Notable Quote:
"This was a tragedy. This was a horror show for the ages. The union of these two.” – Maureen Callahan [55:41]
"It’s just the Kennedys acting like Kennedys." – John F. Kennedy Jr. (via Steve Gillen, as quoted by Maureen, [84:28])

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It’s a cesspool. It really is. Hollywood, show business, television, all these people that are holier than thou...” – Rob Shooter [12:32]
• “Survivor with sex.” – Maureen Callahan [14:44]
• “God's a bitch. God bless you, Maureen.” – Rob Shooter [19:08]
• "They are depicting Carolyn as a non negotiable personality who is impossible to deal with. Impossible. Now that may well have been true, but so was John." – Maureen Callahan [55:41]
• "He was likely fucking another woman hours before flying his wife against her will in a plane. That...was a murder suicide mission. I do." – Maureen Callahan [82:20]

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Segment Timestamps

• [06:20] – Bachelorette scandal origins and ABC’s culpability
• [09:46] – Reality TV’s “messiness” as a feature, not a bug
• [16:46] – Rob pressured to “take down the gay” for TLC Duggar interview
• [20:07] – Reality TV psychologists as producers’ spies
• [25:36] – Justin Bieber & Usher feud: betrayal and child exposure in industry
• [31:58] – Chapel Roan incident and the power imbalance between fans and celebrities
• [33:39] – Savannah Guthrie’s return, ratings games, and morning show politics
• [52:00] – Ryan Murphy’s “Love Story” vs. the messy, dangerous Kennedy reality
• [84:28] – Maureen’s closing: The Kennedy curse as entitlement and destruction

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Episode Takeaways

• The mainstream media and entertainment industry persistently prioritize ratings, profit, and branding over morality, safety, or even legality—enabling abusers and exploiting trauma for entertainment.
• The reality behind celebrity culture is shockingly cynical—child endangerment, cover-ups, and psychological manipulation are systemic.
• The Kennedy family’s history, far from mythic, is riddled with abuses of power, predation, and media complicity, which continues to be whitewashed in popular retellings.
• Maureen Callahan and Rob Shooter refuse to let listeners forget the “human carnage” beneath cultural phenomena—whether reality TV, pop scandals, or American dynasty mythologies.

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Transcript

[Maureen Callahan]

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[Rob Shooter]

Thank you so much. I'm happy to represent. Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

Happy, your Hair looks amazing. Did you lighten it up a little bit?

[Rob Shooter]

No, I just got out the shower like half an hour ago. Yours looks so good.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, you sexy beast. Okay, we have to talk. First, I want to talk about the Bachelorette getting yanked by abc. And I'm really, really interested in your take on this because abc, owned by Disney, which also owns Hulu, this is a. This is a stew that everybody's involved in here. The Bachelorette who. You know, the video started going viral again last week of her assaulting her then boyfriend with her small child in the room. And allegedly that small child getting hit by a heavy metal stool. One of three that we saw her fling at this guy. ABC knew they cast her, casted her as the Bachelorette anyway, and now they're acting so shocked and they've got to pull it. And, you know, I mean, it's. Talk to me. Tell the troublemakers, basically how the levels, the levels up. An organization like Disney, a casting like this goes in a franchise like that.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, it's, It's. It goes right to the top. They all knew. They all approved her. They even humiliated people who work for abc, including Lara Spencer on GMA and Kelly Ripa on her show the day before they canceled. She did publicity. That's right, ABC show. So they were forging ahead. In fact, my insiders tell me the day that she was doing press, 24 hours before she was canceled, they were giddy at ABC. They thought they were going to get the biggest ratings maybe in the Bachelor history, or at least in the last decade, the numbers have slowly going down and down and down on the show. We saw a Mormon wife, a different Mormon on Dancing with the Stars, another ABC show, and the ratings went up, currently now on Broadway in Chicago. That lady is now the leader of the show, and it's breaking box office records. Chicago has been on Broadway for 29 years, and last week they grossed the highest number they had ever grossed. So there's something about these Mormon wives. So I don't.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, you know what it is, Rob? Let's just say what it is is that they all fuck each other's husbands in a practice that they call soft swinging. That's why that and exactly why ABC chose this woman, Taylor Frankie Paul with this, like, incredibly cumbersome name that you're like, is it a woman? Is it a man? I don't know. She's beating up her spouse regardless. Like, they knew. They legal departments at Disney, abc, Hulu, they do background checks on these people. Do you have a rap sheet? What's wrong, you know, and so they knew. They put her in there anyway. And then because this video went viral, it's not like they hadn't seen it. This video has been in the ecosystem for two years. They were like, oh, God, we have like our moral. Like, we're shocked. We're clutching our pearls like we couldn't possibly air this now.

[Rob Shooter]

That's exactly what the response was. This is an old video in the season debut, the very first of Mormon wives. Wives. She gets arrested on camera. So you did not need to be Sherlock Holmes to know who she was. This isn't a bug in the system. This is why they hired her.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's a feature. Exactly. It's a feature.

[Rob Shooter]

They wanted her. They wanted the drama, they wanted the messiness. I'm told that from people on the show that it was a really messy season, that this was. This was not something that she just put at the door. No, they encouraged her to be this person. And so now they are shocked. They are appalled. They have fired her. What I'm told is going on is it wasn't just the video that went viral. They were almost excited about that. It was advertisers. They'd had a huge advertiser dropout and more advertisers were going to follow suit. And once you start messing with money at ABC or any other network, that's when they make a really hard. Maybe not so hard, but they make a decision. And so this was about money. They didn't care that she's messy. They didn't care that the public was upset. They really were looking forward to. To popping champagne on Sunday and arguably having the highest ratings they've had in a while. Now there was some internal pushback. Abc, ABC News, still fancies themselves as kind of fancy. They're not Bravo. They're not this. This sloppy behavior. And so this is what networks, all networks are going through now. For a long time, the Today show didn't want the Real Housewives on. And it's part of the same company. It's all the universal. And so these shows now are trying to figure out how do we work together? What is. What is good for the goose? Is that good for the gander? How does all this fit together? It's a little bit more complicated than just saying they should never have cast her because they want hits. They want these shows to.

[Maureen Callahan]

I'm going to push back on you right there. That they never should have cast her. It's the video. It's not even the video of her arrest because the video of her arrest is just that. It's isolated. It's the video that. That went viral of her throwing three metal chairs at her spouse or her then boyfriend, of kicking him, hitting him, putting him in a chokehold of one of those metal chairs. He alleges hitting their very small. Her small child who was in the living room at the time. At the end of that video, you hear that child crying and he says, your daughter's right there. You're hurting her. This, to me, is so upsetting. It's not just another entertainment story where the people involved are kind of gross or sad. This is everything you say they knew at abc and they don't care that a small child or more than one child is in danger with this woman. She's raiding. So nobody gives a sh. There's like a level of amorality that can still shock me. Like, what's. Am I the outlier? Are we all here at the Nerve, the outliers?

[Rob Shooter]

I fear sometimes we might be more reading. That's why I'm so grateful we found each other. It's a cesspool. It really is. Hollywood, show business, television, all these people that are holier than thou. Let's remember Matt Lauer was accused of anally raping an assistant in Russia while he was working.

[Maureen Callahan]

And violently so, in a way that would be the most painful to her. And also accused of having a quote, unquote rape button on the bottom of his desk that was hidden from view so that whenever a woman walked in, he could lock them in and she would have nowhere to go. Somebody had to install that. And you know what it's like if you work a 9 to 5 job. And I did it all the time. You have to file an expense report which you have to itemize. So somebody very high up at NBC signed off on Matt Lauer's little remote button.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, yeah. These networks who for a long time have tried to fool us, how posh they are, how moral high ground they are, how their views are, the views that we should all buy into. I think once over and over again that they have proven themselves wrong. And this Bachelor Ed is just another prime example that they are no better. In fact, they are worse. They're worse hypocrites. They are absolute hypocrites here. Now, this video, these. You know, I think she taped 12, 15 episodes. They're in the vault at ABC. There's a chance that they could see light at some point. They got to figure out what they want to do next. And also to the franchise what are they going to do with this franchise? My sources tell me that definitely, definitely this season has gone. But moving forward, what are they going to do? They've delayed the start of the new Bachelor. The numbers are going down. We don't believe anymore, and it never was. But we used to believe, or at least I did foolishly, that it was a love story, that this was about falling in love. This was about finding your perfect partner who doesn't want to do that. It's hard dating. And if ABC could make it a little easier for everybody, what a wonderful thing. It's all a lie. This is just a show about drama, about exploiting people, about exploiting the viewers.

[Maureen Callahan]

Survivor with sex.

[Rob Shooter]

That's what it is. That is what it is.

[Maureen Callahan]

So let's talk about tlc, which for many, many, many years had the Duggar family as a linchpin of their network in their reality TV programming. And, you know, they were like a super Christian. Like, they're like that strain of Christianity that believes in, like, having as many kids as a woman could pump out without dying. So, like, it was. Their show was called 19 Kids and Counting. Josh Duggar went to prison for pedophilia. I believe he sexually abused a relative. I believe I have that right.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

And now there is a new arrest involving Joseph Duggar and Kendra Duggar, also involving, at least I believe, the direct charge against Joseph involves sexual abuse of a child as well. What are you hearing? And what do these arrests, these investigations, these stories, the public's outrage, do they move the needle at all in terms of how reality television conducts itself?

[Rob Shooter]

I have to hope the answer is yes. Sometimes I think that we're fighting a battle here that nobody else cares about, but they do care about money. And this is gonna really hit the bottom line over there. Just a little background here. When the Duggars were on television, they got millions of viewers. And I went to interview them, and I spoke to tlc. They'd seen me on different shows, and they asked me. They invited me to come and interview the Duggars. We went to Bob's Burger in Rockefeller's Center.

[Maureen Callahan]

When was this, Rob?

[Rob Shooter]

About 10 years ago. And I. But before they allowed me to meet the Duggar family, I had to promise not to swear. I had to promise to take down the gay a notch they didn't want.

[Maureen Callahan]

What?

[Rob Shooter]

Huh?

[Maureen Callahan]

Huh? What does that mean? When they say that to you? Do you say it? Please, enumerate, explain now.

[Rob Shooter]

I would. Back then, I was kind of a shy kid, and I wanted to talk to Celebrities. Back then, I wanted to. To break into this business. I. I was a publicist. I wasn't a reporter. So I felt like I had a real sort of, like, chip on my shoulder or people didn't take me seriously. And so I remember, like, the PR department at tlc really, really protecting, overly protecting this family who now clearly we needed to be protected from. But what my reporting tells me is that people knew. When you tape reality shows, and this is true of the Bachelorette, too, the cameras are on 24. 7. It's really, really easy to turn up on the Today show and be phony for two minutes or five minutes. It' easy to be a phony guest on a podcast when you're only on for four or five minutes. That's what's so exceptional about your show. You're up for half an hour. Your guests are. It's a real. It's a real conversation. It's real time.

[Maureen Callahan]

Thank you.

[Rob Shooter]

And this is just 30 minutes. Can you imagine if you and me, Maureen, were doing this 24 hours a day? Seven days, it'd be great. But 24, you get to really know each other. And so I'm told. Now what? There was stuff. There was stuff that happened. There was stuff that was said. What's on that tapes? I don't really. I'm not that interested in seeing the polished season of the Bachelorette. I want to see all the outtakes.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, 100%. You want to know what production saw, what the editing base saw, what was flown through legal. How do we bury this? How do we bury that? You know, that's just amazing to me. And that goes to the rank hypocrisy and decisive disgustingness of so much of reality tv. They come to you and say the horrible things they said to you. Oh, and don't swear. And this is. This is part of the reason I love profanity. They're saying, don't you dare. Probably take the Lord's name in vain would get you, because you're going to hell. They've got at least one child molester in that child army. At least one, probably two, maybe more. By the way. Wonder where those kids picked that up. You know what I'm saying? Know what I'm saying? And. But God forbid, Rob, that you show up as a gay man, you know, speaking your truth, as it were.

[Rob Shooter]

God's a bitch. God bless you, Maureen. But it was a weird hour and a half, two hours I spent with them. The dad was weird. Everything about it was really, really off. And now I Know why? These are just really the lowest of the low. The crimes that they have been accused of are absolutely shocking. It hasn't happened once. This is the second son. This is the second son in this family. And I think that corporations, company, broadcast networks now have to really ask very hard these questions. Let me be honest. I know people who have done reality shows. I'm living in New York. You get to know the housewives.

[Maureen Callahan]

Sure.

[Rob Shooter]

And they are funny. So they're a bit rude and obnoxious. And, you know, I think they. They always think they're on TV when they're not. They could take it down and not. But they've all had to go through psychological tests. They have psychiatrists talk to people. Where were those psychiatrists for the Duggars? Where were they?

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, also, Rob, though the thing is with the psychologists, they're not always there to help the cast members. They're there to, like, get in on their sore spots, their most traumatic moments, to activate them to behave badly. They get. It's like sleeping with the enemy. That's what that's for. If you're on reality TV and you think you need to avail yourself of the services of a mental health professional, go outside the set, do not trust anybody production brings in.

[Rob Shooter]

Right, right. Well, I am. I worked with tyra banks about 20 years ago when she was doing Top Model. And that's what the psychologists did. They came in not to check that the ladies were prepared for this process, a really intensive process. They were there almost as spies, almost as investigators to find out what is your sore spot, what is the button we can press. I remember that there was one young model who was abused and her mother was the abuser. And Tyra always asked her about no mother, her mother. Your relationship with your mother. I want to be your mother. No, just this to get them to explode. Now, your big question, Maureen, before we jumped into the segment was, well, things change. And they did change with really, really trashy Jerry Springer type television. On the Jenny Jones show, when somebody was killed, it got to that point where somebody on the Jenny Jones Show in the 90s, these daytime talk shows.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yeah, that's when Oprah made her turn, too. Oprah found positivity and the like.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, but she, she, she would have been canceled if she had an Oprah.

[Maureen Callahan]

Exactly.

[Rob Shooter]

As more of movie Povich, as Jerry Springer.

[Maureen Callahan]

She was, she was down in the gutter with the rest of them. But the thing that concerns me, Rob, is that that stuff has already happened. People have died on reality shows. People have Killed themselves. People have slid into alcoholism, drug addiction. A housewife on Atlanta just lost a son to drug addiction. And he was a major part of her storyline. And I'm telling you, those reality TV producers and Andy Cohen himself fucking loved it. Okay? Andy Cohen was on one of those reunions going, wow, that was really brave. You really helped a lot of people. No, she didn't. She exploited her son and had his drug addiction as her storyline, and he died of it. And I'm not blaming anybody, but I am. I am in terms of the reality TV ecosystem and human carnage is just the cost of doing business.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, it's the cost of doing business that is built into the system. That is built into. To the model until it isn't. They did not want to cancel this Bachelorette once again, after a video was. Was exposed, after conversations started again, they pushed her out. She went on Good Morning America and

[Maureen Callahan]

Kelly and Mark, and they're like, oh, oh, they put her on the freaking Oscars red carpet. They put this piece of shit. This piece of shit on the Oscars red carpet. Who doesn't love to see a child abuser? Just my opinion. On the red carpet at the Oscars, right?

[Rob Shooter]

And then they wonder why, when no one's watching, they wonder. They scream like, what happened to the ratings? This is what happened. Kelly. Kelly and Mark, they. She is on record. She is not a fan of this show. She does not like the way this show has been. The Bachelorette, The Bachelorette. And so she doesn't often have the Bachelorette on. Whenever ABC roll out a celebrity, one of their primetime shows, they have the View, they have Kelly, they have Tamron. They have shows in their stable that you can pop them on. And these shows sometimes just exist to promote the prime time.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right.

[Rob Shooter]

Kelly. To have Taylor on and to not ask her any questions. And now we've got that video where Kelly's actually sort of defending her and asking her, are you okay? And has this been a very difficult week for you? It's humility.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yeah. That line of questions where it's like the victim, the perpetrator is the victim, you know, and it's so sick because it wends its way into the culture. We live in a culture now where it's like almost anybody can commit any crime, but as long as you can find the trauma in their life, that explains it, that justifies it. And let's talk about how hard this has been for you. And I would die for Chris Harrison, who ABC fired from the Bachelor for what? Did he have an Affair, something. It was like consenting adults. They fired him for that. Helen Keller could have seen that one coming. The guy surrounded by young women, 24, 7. This is his show. He's got a lot of power. They fired him, but they were ready to, like, pull the trigger on this piece of shit. With our season of the Bachelorette, speaking of more abuse and more disgustingness in the culture, Justin Bieber and Usher apparently got into a fight on Oscar night. And we're seeing this Daily Mail headline up here. The quote, he just didn't protect him. Insiders reveal the real reason Justin Bieber and Usher's secret feud hit boiling point at oscars. Published on March 21, 2026. The quote, Usher brought Justin into that world when he was just a kid. The insider explains, Justin trusted Usher to look out for him, and now he feels like that did not happen. What do you hear?

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, Justin is right here. I worked with him, so I was around this monster. But the reason Justin was hanging with Diddy was because of Usher. Usher introduced. Introduced Justin Bieber.

[Maureen Callahan]

Was Usher's find, correct?

[Rob Shooter]

He found him on YouTube. He found him as a teenager. He was strumming a guitar on the Internet, trying to become a star.

[Maureen Callahan]

And he's a little kid, right? He was, like, 11 maybe.

[Rob Shooter]

It was. It was. He was a baby and he had nobody protecting him. But his family, who have their issues too, they thought that Usher would take him under his wing. And Usher has done a pretty good job of staying away from some of the really dirty darkness of the music business. And so as mentors go, Usher, at first sight, seems like a really, really good person. But that was not the truth. One of the first people that Usher introduced just into was Diddy as a teenager. He was going to Diddy's parties, He was spending the night at Diddy's. He was hanging out there for. For weeks. And so at the time, Justin, I think, just thought this was growing up, this was the music business. Now he's an adult, he's a father, he's suffered with his own mental health issues and he's furious about it. Nobody protected him. And, you know, in life, often it's not your responsibility to do that, but if you take somebody under your wing, if you want to be their mentor, you have to do it. And so this has been bubbling up for a while. In fact, sources tell me that this. This was going to explode. It just so happened they were in the same place. Justin's removed himself from the music business. I was surprised to see him at the party. In fact, if he wasn't married to Hayley, who really enjoys the spotlight, I don't think he would have gone to this party. I think he went because his wife wanted to be there. But one of the people he bumped into was Usher and he let him have it. And I'm told Usher had no response. How do you respond, Justin? I'm team Justin all the way.

[Maureen Callahan]

I'm team Justin all the way too. Usher gave a very interesting interview years ago to Howard Stern. You can still find it online. He also repeated this in Rolling Stone. That he. I forget which came first, but that he as a kid was living with Diddy. His mother sent him to live with Diddy as a teacher. Teenager. And he saw all manner of crazy. And he said he would walk into rooms and there would be full blown orgies going on. And he was a teenager. Obviously this somehow was normalized within him. I would bet. I have no evidence, just my supposition. Usher may have been interfered with as a young man. That guy did. He is a monster. And, you know, I wish that Justin would just take the money he got from selling his catalog and just go live a quiet life somewhere. This is. This is not. This is not a healthy scene for him on any level. On any level.

[Rob Shooter]

That's the only chance of happiness Justin has. He has profound mental health issues. I. I've interviewed. How could he not many times. And he. He straddles. You can really see him struggle. I remember I was once at a morning show and he was backstage going on to perform, and I was there doing celebrity news. You're not allowed to say gossip on those shows. It's got to be celebrities. Pretty nervous.

[Maureen Callahan]

I know.

[Rob Shooter]

And then they put the Bachelorette on.

[Maureen Callahan]

But I know, right?

[Rob Shooter]

I know.

[Maureen Callahan]

They bring the Bachelorette out. Hey, when's the last time you hit your kid?

[Rob Shooter]

And Justin was. Was in the green room with me strumming on a guitar. And he looked like a little sparrow. He looked like a little lost boy. It broke my heart. And then he went out on stage and he was great, but he just looked like he didn't want. He didn't realize that being a musician was also gonna be this. This whirlwind. And it doesn't have to be, but

[Maureen Callahan]

I think it doesn't have to be, but children really have no place in this world. They really should not be anywhere near it now. Speaking of Chapel, Roan made headlines over the weekend because as it turned out, Jude law has an 11 year old daughter. Jude Law, who I love. I love Him, I've always loved him. But, you know, you get within 50ft of that guy, he's gonna get you pregnant. He's got kids everywhere. So he's got an 11 year old who lives in Brazil with her mother and stepfather who is a soccer star. Their Chapel Roan is on tour there. The little girl is in the hotel restaurant with her mother. Chapel Roan comes down to have breakfast. The little girl just makes. Does it. Does a walk by Chapel's table just to make sure it's her. She's a real fan. And Chapel Roan's goons, like, went after this kid and we're like, get away. You know, and the girl wound up crying. Crying. Chapel Ron took like a day to address this, which means, you know, it went down the way the child described. We'll take a quick little look at Chapel's explanation and then we'll get into it. I did not ask the security guard to go up and talk to this mother and child. I did not. They did not come up to me. What do you make of that?

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, yeah. None. None of that.

[Maureen Callahan]

Non denial. Denial.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah. It's really tricky, isn't it? Because, you know, maybe she didn't say to her security guard in that second, go over and push that little girl away.

[Maureen Callahan]

Did she shoot them a look? Did she shoot them a look? That could kill.

[Rob Shooter]

They've had conversations. I've worked with big celebrities and they all have conversations with the star they work with about the access to fans. And a lot of the decent stars know very well that if no one's a threat to me physically and they want to come over and say hello, let them. And if somebody wants to come over and take a selfie, maybe not today. Because, I mean, like, they literally talk about this stuff in the cars. I've been in these cars. I've been in these rooms. So Chapel has clearly set a bar with her security.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Rob Shooter]

That nobody can come near us. No body. And this poor little girl, 11 years old, was in a posh hotel, a posh restaurant, peeked around the corner, saw a star sheet she liked. She didn't do anything inappropriate. And then the security guards snapped. And I think the problem here is, is not just the incident, it's the lies she should own.

[Maureen Callahan]

And, you know, she didn't bank on this kid being the child of someone who's very famous.

[Rob Shooter]

That's right.

[Maureen Callahan]

Very powerful. Her stepfather's very famous in Brazil. Very powerful. I just would like to say this. If you ever see a little kid light up when they encounter Someone who's famous, who they idolize. It is the sweetest, purest thing. And to just shit all over that because you need to feel important and make a child cry. And the other thing you're saying, too, about those parameters that celebrities set, you know, in terms of if a fan approaches, how they'll engage, that's a moment that that fan will remember forever. You, the celebrity will probably one of a million that come up to you and you won't recount it. That is something that person will carry with them probably forever. And why not make it pleasant for the people who are putting money in your pocket and fame in your otherwise empty black heart that will never be filled? And my final thought for chapel before we get to our last item, if you don't want attention, don't go down to the hotel restaurant and have a meal with your security. Retinue, order room service, you ungrateful bitch. Okay. Justice for Jude Law's little girl. Okay, now our last. Our last item, which we wanted to get to last week, but we didn't have time. Hoda is catching some shit for the timing of her Joy 101 retreat. She's still in that chair on Today as Savannah, lead banner item on page six in yesterday's post, is planning actively with NBC and Today show execs her return. What do you know about our favorite purveyor of joy and missing mothers?

[Rob Shooter]

She wasn't canceling this retreat. She had been working on this retreat. She's been working on this app, this join us new chapter of her life, for years. In fact, that's the real reason she left the Today Show. She said it was for the kids, but as we know, she's popping popped back. And so it was to launch this app. I think she's deeply disappointed. She thought it was going to be goop, and it's ended up being Meghan Markle. Nobody cares about 100. And so she's did this retreat in Arizona. Tickets were sold out before Nancy Guthrie disappeared, but she.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah, I don't know if they were sold out, Rob. I mean, Marlena tried to just get on the wait list for when they were going to put them on sale, and then Marlena's email landed in their inbox. And then Marlena was told hours later it was sold out. So.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, good point. I'll take it. I'll take it. Okay. And so Hoda was not canceling this. This is her passion now. This is what she. She wants to do. But as far as coming back to the Today show, it's really interesting because during the Olympics and during this awful story, this, this, this really horrific story that we've all been talking about, the Today shows ratings went through the roof. They're not high anymore. In fact, last week GMA got 80,000. No, it's that close now. So that's why I think Savannah's gonna be coming back shortly. Because the bump they got from this horrific story and the Olympics, it's starting to wane now. And so I think Savannah's gonna be coming back sooner than later because of ratings, which is how we started today. Ratings.

[Maureen Callahan]

I was just gonna say that, Rob. It's all full circle where there is no tragedy too unspeakable, including the abduction of this 84 year old, sickly old woman from her own bed in the dead of night. She remains missing as we're talking now we are into day 51 and this is what the real conversation. Behind closed doors in public. They're gonna say, we're a family. We're wearing our yellow ribbons. Behind closed doors, it's war gaming. How we get Savannah back, what day she comes back, for how many minutes, in what time slot, who's talking to her, where we get that ratings bumped where we most fatally wound gma. Yeah, that's. That's what they care about. That's it. That's it. And that's all Mother Guthri, best of luck to you. But that's all they give a shit about.

[Rob Shooter]

You're absolutely right. I'm even told they're talking about doing the countdown Savannah back in four days, three days, two days.

[Maureen Callahan]

What would be the logo that would go behind that countdown clock, Rob? Would it be. Would it be blood droplets? Would it be like, let's be as ghoulish as they are because this is ghoulish. It's not the fucking Olympics. It's a woman whose mother is still missing, who is in agony. They are so ghoulish.

[Rob Shooter]

I can't believe missing the whole point. I want to count down to the day that we find Nancy.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yes.

[Rob Shooter]

Down to her daughter coming back. She's still missing. And that's why Hoda was so tone deaf. She's still out there. She could be still in Arizona.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's just so good is having a five star retreat around the concept of joy in Arizona. I don't even think a votive candle got lit for Nancy. Because you know, Nancy, a missing mom is. It's a downer. It's a drag. Rob, we love you. I couldn't love you more. I couldn't love you more. But today's conversation just, I mean above and beyond. I, I just, I love you so much. And we eagerly await the release of your book which we're doing a book club with you on pub day, my friend. April20, which also happens to be the nerve's first birthday. The gods are smiling upon the Nerve and your book. See you soon, my friend.

[Rob Shooter]

Take care. You're the best. Bye everyone.

[Maureen Callahan]

Likewise. And that's it with Rob. We will be back. We've got a Nepo baby and the mother of this Nepo baby we've not yet covered on the Nerve and I've got a fair amount to say. And she will be recurring this month because of a movie she's got coming out and the New Yorker just panned it and you know, in the New Yorker, pan something, buy a pet. It's even worse than they're willing to tell you. Plus, we've got troublemaker feedback and our love story recap with additional materials that are the true story. We are back in a minute. Do you know that the condition of your hair, skin, nails, mental clarity and energy all begins with gut health? Adding quality colostrum to your daily routine can help with all of it. Today's sponsor, Cowboy Colostrum offers the highest quality bovine colostrum available, 100% American made from 100% American grass fed cows. Unlike other Colostrum brands, Cowboy Colostrum is true first day whole colostrum rich in bioactives. They also use ethical practices ensuring that they only collect the surplus Colostrum after calves have had their fill made with natural ingredients and no artificial flavors. Just add a scoop of their chocolate, Madagascar vanilla, matcha or strawberry into your morning smoothie. Get healthy from the inside out. For a limited time, our listeners get up to 25% off their entire order. Just head to cowboycolostrum.com Maureen and use code Maureen at checkout. That's 25% off when you use code [e-mail] Maureen get in the game with the college branded Venmo Debit card. Rep your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit [e-mail] the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo me stashterms max $100 cash back per month. This is brought to you by Colgate Total Active Prevention. Some routines make perfect sense, like securing your seatbelt before driving. Just as buckling up helps prevent injury, using Colgate Total helps prevent oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis before they start. So put yourself in the driver's seat of oral health and prevent problems before they start. With Colgate Total Active Prevention, available at a retailer near you. We are back. Now, before we get to troublemaker email, we get a lot of pushback in the culture from Nepo babies who are basically like, look, what else am I supposed to do? My mother is famous, my father is famous, they're both famous. I mean, I'm just supposed to be a dj or just take a look at at Brooklyn Beckham. Look at the failure, the multi pronged failure that is Brooklyn Beckham. I'm going to tell any Nepo baby who's wondering why there's so much animus against you. Guys, this is exhibit A. This is Sofia Coppola's daughter, Romy. She's a teenager. I believe she might be close to 18 now. Now, her father is also semi famous. He's in a very mediocre indie band, alt band called Phoenix. All their songs sound the same. They all sound the same, but they're French. So Sophia has yet another mediocre movie out. It's a documentary about Marc Jacobs. They have been friends forever. That's how you know it's not going to be any good. I will have a lot to say about this in a later nerve. The New Yorker just panned it. And you know, when the New Yorker attacks someone who is supposed to be untouchably cool in the culture, it's worse than they are willing to admit. I've got a lot of problem. I just think Sofia Coppola is extremely overrated and we'll get into why much later. Anyway, this is her daughter who was responding allegedly to a TikTok user about what it is to be quote unquote, written by Sophia. I guess because she's a Sophia creation. Listen to this girl in her very. You know, this is like, I'm so rich, I'm so privileged. I'm so bored. You guys have no idea what it's like to be me. I'm gonna give you a little bit. Let's do it together. We'll talk about it on the other side. Here we go. Let's clear this up. She's literally written by Sofia Coppola. Yes. I was birthed by Sofia Coppola. Is my story written by Sofia Coppola? Let's not put that into the universe, because what do the Sofia Coppola girls do? They themselves from the ceiling fan. Okay. Also, I was raised primarily by many different women in their twenties. You could ask any of my friends. A lot of my moms were also Sophia, my mom, but also mostly like, like just random girls in their twenties that were so unfiltered and like giving me weed at 11. I think there's a lot of truth in that. And it's ugly. It's really ugly. While the mainstream media, Elle magazine just put Sophia on the COVID gives this woman all kinds of plaudits herself. Another Nepo baby. It's her father who's the brilliant director. Her father, Francis Ford Coppola, who is the brilliant writer director. This girl, by the way, this girl went viral like in 2023 for bitching online that her father, she stole her father's credit card and it got denied when she tried to book a helicopter to take her from New York to like Maryland or vice versa. She was much younger, obviously. Then she's there. She's referring to her mother by her full name, which I find very weird. She's invoking suicide in a very flip way, which I find very disturbing. I don't like that. And then she's basically saying, my mother didn't raise me. I was actually raised by a bunch of random nannies. Like women in their 20s. That rings true. Random women in their 20s, she said, who gave me weed when I was 11. That rings true. Don't, don't envy these kids. Do not. It's also fucked up, you know, it's like there's this shiny version the mainstream media wants to. Oh, every girl wants to be Sofia Coppola. No, they don't. If you're a woman who would like to have as part of your package like an actual personality and a point of view, you don't want to be Sophia Coppola. Okay. Do you have an energy level that exceeds like two, you know. Hi, Maureen, OG listener here. I really wanted to write to you about Love Story today, but today, don't worry, we've got, we've got two more segments at least coming. This troublemaker saw a commercial for an older adult adult product. It was the 61 year old female ping pong player playing against some young guy. And when they showed the guy at the end, he looked exactly like Timothy Shamalama. Ding Dong. I was dying, Timmy's never gonna live this down. From troublemaker Tracy in Illinois. And you can use my name. Thanks, Tracy. Hi, Maureen. This troublemaker loves the minis on Saturdays. We love doing them. We're so happy you guys respond to them. To Saturday's Mini. We heard from a lot of you about our dissection of Sex in the City. Sarah Jessica Parker, who dated John Jr. Maybe had one date with him. Maybe it sounds like she's turned it into six months. Maybe Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, Michael Bergen and the rest. It shows even more the pathology that they all share. Questions? How is Trouble's tutelage going with Uber detective Teddy? Teddy, like many perfectionists, can't figure out why this 4 month old puppy just can't get with it immediately. You know, Teddy's like, I'm leaps and bounds ahead of you in terms of investigative skills and detection and you know, the, the puppy's just kind of like, teach me your ways. Teach me your ways. And Teddy will not even acknowledge him. Dear Maureen, loved the Oscars livestream. Thank you, Teddy Van Halen looked dashing. Yes, he did. The co hosts were everything. Is this something you can do for the Met gala? We're thinking about it. We are thinking about it. Regarding the arrest of Justin Timberlake. Now that we see the footage, this troublemaker. Jackie. Oh, Jackie, you've written before. She writes I loved so did we. How the cop had no idea who he was and why he would be on a tour because it goes to how JT is not as relevant as he thinks he is. What I found appalling, as discussed on yesterday's nerve, was his friend slash employee who came back to fetch him. First of all because she was like, oh my God, my hair's not good. She was on camera. Doesn't matter if it's a cop's body cam, you know, that's recording to make sure like God forbid, something goes sideways, everyone can see. You know, that's, you know, there's a grim reason that body cameras there but she's like, my hair, my hair. Welcome to summers out east in the Hamptons. Why would the police care what her hair looks like? Second, I didn't catch this part. Troublemaker Jackie. What was up with her telling them that she owns a spa? Was this some rich person flex? Was she trying to bribe him? Do police in the Hamptons care about facials and microdermabrasion? No, they do not. Okay? They are on the side of Route 27 Clocking drunk drivers and speeders with their radar. Okay, this Troublemaker from the Jersey Shore does not get it. The icing on the cake with the Chanel bag lady was when she expected the police to let him leave with her and when they were not giving into her entitled ads. I missed this part too. She started bringing up his songs. My understanding, says Jackie was that Bye Bye Bye came out before the cop was born. In fairness, Jackie, I believe Bye Bye Bye was an in sync number. And you know we really have to go to Justified, Justin's debut solo album, I Believe, produced by the Neptunes for, you know, the real. If you're going to talk about the Justin Cannon now, that arrest is also in the the Justin Cannon. Thank you Jackie. Keep your feedback coming. Email me at maureenvilmakeremedia.com or DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, Writer or at the Nerve Show. Remember to subscribe to the nerve substack. That is our weekly email. Go over to thenerveshow.com you will see a prompt. Would you like our sub stack in your inbox? Every Friday, after the last full Nerve of the week, put your email address in and there you go. It just shows up. Nothing more required. Coming up, episode eight eight of nine in Ryan Murphy's love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. There's Ryan's version and then there's the Nerves version, which is the true version. It's the better one. It's the more fucked up, compelling, dark and unthinkable one. And that's where we all live. We will see you in a minute. Troublemakers are banks cashing your interest checks while you are buried in debt? PDS Debt Can Help PDS debt has freed hundreds of thousands of people from credit card, personal loan and medical debt with tailored plans that put you first. No minimum credit score needed. They have gotten A plus from the Better Business Bureau and a nearly five star rating on trustpilot with thousands of real success stories. Every month you delay costs you more, so don't wait another month. Take back control in 30 seconds. Get your free personalized assessment and the best options for [e-mail] nerve that's pds.com nerve healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more. Hiring isn't just filling a role. It's about finding people who can drive results. Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you match with the right candidates faster. Target candidates by skills, certifications or location. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed. We are back now for one of our favorite weekly discussions. It's time to examine Ryan Murphy's love story. John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. And when I tell you I am about to I'm just gonna say this. I saw a very good friend of mine over the weekend, very smart person, very like savvy, sophisticated, lifelong New Yorker like me, obsessed with Ryan Murphy's love story. Told me with a straight face that she thought everything she's been watching was actually true. And the way it went down. And this is why here at the Nerve, we are taking this thing apart week after week because it is a very dangerous thing. This is more Kennedy myth making. And someone else was asking me why I thought that Jack Schlossberg was way up in the polls in New York in this run for a congressional seat. This is a 33 year old man who has never had a job, lives off of four trust funds and has successfully scrubbed most of social media of very unhinged behaviors. And I said, I think it's the show. And I think that like the Kennedy myth is like getting another breath. And we at the Nerve and ask not exist to extinguish that breath. Okay, episode eight, exit strategy. We're going to show the open. And we are showing it in part because, you know, I said at the very beginning that I find the title sequence for this show extremely morbid, very ghoulish. They died very violently. These bodies were shattered and severed and ripped apart and they were flesh was forced into metal. Okay. But this opening sequence has like two hands. What would be John's on the bottom and Carolyn's daintily on the top coming together. And in this episode, which is like kind of it's what they call a bottle episode, only the two of them are in it. They don't leave the apartment. It's one set. It's just dialogue between two people. It's got almost kind of like a jaunty feel to it. And again, and I find that very ghoulish. Like I don't know that they're really taking seriously. They're not taking it seriously. If they were taking it seriously, it wouldn't be a love story, okay? This was a tragedy. This was a horror show for the ages. The union of these two. We're going to take a look and I'm going to set this up. If you're only listening, you're going to hear a reworking of Mary ford's single, circa 1956, called Smoke Rings. It was redone by a guy who goes by Grammatic, but it's all about smoking and the joys of smoking. And we see Carolyn laying in very awkward positions around her apartment, sitting, reclining, what have you smoking. Okay, so here we go. Puff, puff, puff, puff your cares away. Carolyn at home, dressed in black tie evening wear and offer length black gloves, sitting in John's empty office where he pretends to be a businessman, a grown up businessman displayed awkwardly and very uncomfortably on her kitchen island table, which no one ever does. And then just standing in the kitchen staring into space. And then her husband comes home. So she puts out the cigarette and that's.

[Rob Shooter]

That's it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Now what is so strange, because I watched this episode in real time on fx and then the next day they put it up on Hulu. In the FX version, there's a shot of Carolyn underneath, like she's underneath a glass Japanese coffee table and she looks like a corpse. Like she's still. And what these images are really reflective of now this is late 90s when this is taking place. They're really reflective of heroin chic, which was popularized by first a photographer named Corin Day, who discovered Kate Moss and then Kate Moss went on to become like a superstar. And heroin chic became like the lingua franca of the 90s. Until her ex boyfriend's brother, Davide Sorrenti, died of a heroin overdose. And Bill Clinton helped a press conference in the White House and told the fashion industry to cut it the fuck out, which they did. So this is all very ghoulish, okay? And I don't know why they took out the like, why just. Why not just lean in? Was that too much? Was that like a bridge too far? Okay, now we're going to. This episode was sort of gunning for like a who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf vibe, but at least those two characters, as portrayed on film by Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, were literate, literary, sophisticated, highly verbal, psychologically astute. And they were directed by Mike Nichols, very psychologically Astute himself. This is not that. This is not. Not that. Okay, John and Carolyn are going to get into an argument about John wanting Carolyn to go back to work. This is. This. This I believe probably passes for the, the level of fight that they, they probably engaged in in real life. But on the back end of this, I'm going to tell you about all the things that they were really fighting about in real life, okay? And they would have made for much better drama. And as I said in my Daily Mail column the other day, it would have gotten this show at least three seasons, at least, if they had really dug into the real shit that was going on. You know, they're kicking themselves over at FX and Hulu and Ryan Murphy's production company. This show is a cultural phenomenon like no other. That's what you get when you play it safe. Here we go. You told me to go work for Petra. When 30 minutes ago at this dinner party you insisted on hosting. Petra was complaining about how difficult it is to find anyone with work experience willing to build something from the ground up and accept a pay cut. And you started yelling at me. Oh, I did not yell. Yeah, John, you were literally yelling. And I know that because you were seated at the other end of the table. All I said was that you had fashion experience and you didn't need money. Pr. I have PR experience. Alvin Klein. Isn't that fashion? That's fashion. Petra has a jewelry line, John. I'm not a jewelry designer. Well, I'm sorry. For instance, insinuating that you have great taste, that qualifies me to buy jewelry, not make it. They are depicting Carolyn as a non negotiable personality who is impossible to deal with. Impossible. Now that may well have been true, but so was John. And I feel that they are stacking this deck to make it Carolyn's fault that that plane took off late. That's not what caused the crash. John Kennedy jr's insolence, his entitlement, his stupidity, and frankly, his suicidality, which they do tip a nod of the hat to in this episode, are the reasons. But as I wrote in my column, here are the things they really were fighting about and that would have given them episode upon episode. Carolyn's extremely heavy cocaine use. John's magazine failing to the point where executives at Hachette sent him a letter saying they were completely done with him because he didn't know what the fuck he was doing in some. And substance. His cousin and best friend, Anthony Radziwill dying. His sister Caroline Kennedy, long among his Closest confidence, no longer speaking to him. Him. Carolyn making abusive phone calls multiple times a day and in the middle of the night multiple times more than once to his business partner Michael Berman, saying, john, can't stand you. Nobody can't can stand you. It would just be so much better if you left. Why don't you get the fuck out of our lives? The two of them in marriage counseling that was going nowhere. Carolyn on medication prescribed by another therapist she was seeing on her own, reportedly John's daily marijuana habit. Carolyn spilling humiliating details of her non sex life with him, and the both of them cheating on each other all through their relationship and through the marriage. Okay, and we're going to get to this. We are going to get to this because this is such revisionism and it's really dangerous. John Kennedy Jr. Depicted here as like a nice guy, just a nice guy trying to make his marriage work, trying to make his magazine work. Here's something John wrote in George. As George was failing, he had two cousins who were caught up in very public scandals. One, Joseph P. Kennedy, who as written about in Ask not had previously left a beautiful teenage girl named Pam Kelly paralyzed for life when he recklessly drove a Jeep. Got away with it. This current scandal he was in, he was running for office and it was a real problem because he got his marriage to a woman named Sheila Roche Kennedy annulled by the Pope behind her back. She had a problem with that. Kennedy women aren't supposed to have problems with anything their men do. He also wrote about his cousin Michael Kennedy, who had slammed into a tree. While playing football on skis with other Kennedys. And the resort had told them to knock it off. It was against the rules and regulations because they were putting the lives of other skiers at that resort in mortal danger. Did they give a shit? No, they did not. John's editor's letter, which was normally written by Steve Gillen, whose book I Took this from America's Reluctant Prince, but it's so poorly written that I believe John pretty much wrote this one himself in writing about his cousins in his editor's letter, which was also adorned with a photo again of this exhibitionist who wanted to be part of the media, would exploit himself and his own family members, including his beloved mother, for, you know, the commercial viability of his magazine. But don't, don't take pictures of his wife. You know, you cannot have it both ways. His editor's letter, I quote of his cousins. One left behind an embittered wife. Interesting choice. Embittered wife. How would John like it if his wife had the juice to go to the Vatican to call the Pope and say, hey, I'm just gonna sling enough money your way, and I'm a Kennedy. Give me an annulment. My spouse doesn't want one and she doesn't even know I'm talking to you. You know what I'm saying? And I say this as someone who's raised Catholic, so I know what I'm talking about. Another in what looked to be a hedge against morality. Now, I think that here Gillen made a mistake, and I think it's something of a Freudian mistake, because what John really wrote was mortality, what looked to be a hedge against mortality. But Gillen slipped and wrote morality. I continue, of the other cousin John's writing about in what looked to be a hedge against mortality, fell in love with youth and surrendered his judgment. In the process, both became poster boys for bad behavior. Now, that's terrible writing. Poster boys for bad behavior. That's a double cliche. It's so flat and unoriginal. That's why I think John wrote it now of the cousin Michael Kennedy, since deceased, who John wrote, fell in love with youth and surrendered his judgment. In the process. In the process is redundant. Again, terrible writing. I'm going to tell the real story of Michael Kennedy. Michael Kennedy. Now, Jerry Oppenheimer wrote about this in his excellent RFK Jr biography, which I devoured when it came out. This was also reported in all of the New York tabloids in time magazine in 1997 as part of a piece about these dual scandals, divorce, Kennedy style. And by the Chicago Tribune on April 25, 1997. I'm reading from the bulk of the Oppenheimer bio, but I'll tell you the other salient details, of course. Michael Kennedy went to rehab within hours of the shocking discovery by his then wife, Vicki Gifford Kennedy, who was the daughter of the famed football player Frank Gifford and the stepdaughter of Kathie Lee Gifford and Kathie Lee when she was on Regis and Kathy Lee. I love Kathie Lee, but she would always. She would always make reference to now being related to the Kennedys. She was not. It's very Carol Radziwill adjacent, you know what I mean? Within hours of the shocking discovery by Vicki Gifford Kennedy of her husband in bed with Marissa. I'm going to leave out her last name. She's moved on with her life. Marissa in one of the Kennedys spare bedrooms, she found her husband in bed with Marissa, who was their teenage babysitter. Who began babysitting for the family when she was 12 years old. The Chicago Tribune reported that fact. Now it was long reported that Michael began raping this child. There's no other way to put it. When she was 14. That age got bumped up to 16 in subsequent reports and or when the law started circling. I believe 16 was the age of consent in that state where they lived. Kennedy had blamed his drinking for his. This is how this was reported back then. And when I say to you guys like you need to read every word carefully. You could never word this report this way today. For his illicit affair. She was a child with the teenage babysitter and family friend and his wife believed him for the time being. Around that time, Michael Kennedy was caught stalker like on a security camera breaking into the garage where the teenager kept her car. He left behind a bizarre offering, a quote, artificial penis. So a dildo that he attached to the windshield. Having turned 18 and become a college freshman, Marissa decided to confess all to her parents who were high powered Kennedy political donors and friends of the family, or so they thought. Her mother was so devastated that the next day she climbed to the roof of the six story Boston building where she and her husband had a chic apartment and threatened to jump. Steve Gillen writes in his book that John really believed, and I quote, that both cousins that they had admirably chosen to pursue their passions. The real villain was the media that punished and judged them for their indiscretions. I'm proud to be a member of the punitive judgmental media. I'm proud of the nerve for telling the truth about these fucking savage animals. John Jr. Was no gentleman. Now we're going to turn to ask not and the part in the book where I write about the kind of guys John Jr loved to defend publicly. The kind of guys that John Kennedy loved to use his fame to defend and rehabilitate in the public square. Mike Tyson. John championed Mike Tyson even though the boxer had served a six year prison sentence for raping an 18 year old girl, a contestant in the Miss Black America pageant. As John wrote to Tyson in 1997. Most folks think you have considerable talent balanced by some faults, just like the rest of us. I don't know how many of you guys out there identify as rapists. John's support was more astonishing considering that Tyson's victim's testimony had been well publicized during his rape trial in 1992. She recalled that the famous boxer had brought her to his hotel suite and I'm going to stop anyone right there. Who says, well, she went up to his hotel. Right room gives you not any license to lay hand on a woman who says, no, I don't want that. The famous boxer had brought her to his hotel suite, saying he needed to make a phone call. She waited in the suite's foyer before, she testified, he asked her to join him in another room. I was terrified, she testified. I said, it's time to leave. He said, come here. This is graphic, so I'm just going to warn you. He grabbed my arm and stuck his tongue in my mouth. He pulled me fast toward him. This is the heavyweight champion of the world known as Iron Mike Tyson. I pulled back. He said, don't frighten. Don't frighten. Relax. That is very specific language. And I believe her people don't normally talk that way. That's very specific syntax. Don't frighten. And she, she says, he said it twice. I tried to punch him, but it was like hitting a wall. At the time, Tyson was 5 foot 11, weighed over 200 pounds, and was the most fearsome heavyweight boxer in the world. His teenage victim was 5 foot 3 and 108 pounds. The next thing I knew, he slammed me on the bed, she testified. He put his hand in my vagina. He jammed his fingers in me really hard. I said, ow, please stop. You're hurting me. My eyes were filling up with tears. And he started laughing like it was a game. Tyson forcibly performed oral sex on her. And then she said he raped her. It felt like someone was ripping me apart, she testified. And when he was done, he called her a baby, a crybaby. Tyson's prison sentence at the end of the 1992 trial was followed by another in 1998 for assaulting two men. John made a show of visiting Tyson at the Rockville Detention center in Maryland and compared Tyson's troubled reputation to that of his own father. I mean, the world knew the half of it it about his father, like a fraction whose legacy was becoming sullied by multiple reports of his own womanizing. I mean, again, in that letter to Mike Tyson, John said that his father's moral failings only showed how, quote, human he was. That's why John wrote, 35 years after his death, my father still sells books, miniseries, magazines, et cetera. That's the important stuff, right? As discussed with Rob, he sympathized with me in some way. Tyson recalled later defending someone accused of rape. Wasn't new for John. In 1991, his cousin, William Kennedy Smith, stood trial in Palm beach for raping a 29 year old single mother named Patricia Bowman. John showed up to court in a public display of support even though his mother Jackie refused to to do the same. John told his friend James Ridgeway. Dsigetsi, if I'm pronouncing that right, that the Kennedy family, quote, should have done something about Willie years ago when he first started doing this. Close quote, meaning I write raping women. Bowman's story was entirely credible. After meeting Smith at a high end bar in Palm Beach, Florida, she testified that she went back to the Kennedy estate again. I am going to insert my admonition there. She can go back home with whoever she wants. If she doesn't want to have sex, she gets to say so and that's the end of it. She went back to the Kennedy estate with Smith because she said there could be no safer place because, quote, she said there was a senator there, Smith's uncle, Ted Kennedy. And you see what I mean, that if the media had just told the truth about these people, women wouldn't have thought they were safe and open. Quote, I didn't feel I was in any danger whatsoever. Close quote. Smith then walked her down to the beach where she said he raped her so savagely that Bowman testified, quote, I thought he was going to kill me. How does it feel to be a character assassin, John? His friend James Ridgeway Desezge asked him after the verdict. How does it feel to be this woman's Lee Harvey Oswald? John hung his head. He always hung his head when confronted with something he didn't like. It was a signal to back off in his own defense. John muttered an explanation. You just don't understand the pressure I'm under. John's long term affair with, among many other women, a woman named Sybil Hill. And the National Enquirer was the only outlet bold enough to cover this story. It got picked up later by other outlets, but no one else would go near it. This was called JFK's Secret Lover. It was published in the year 2000 after they had died. And this is entirely credible. And the Inquirer stood this story up. That's the phraseology in journalism. You stand it up with sources. And they spoke to several friends of hers who said, yeah, she told me all this contemporaneously long before you guys came around. And she also had handwritten letters from him and a distraught. I'm reading from the article. John F. Kennedy Jr. Had a passionate affair with a beautiful blonde in the last two years of his troubled marriage, which lasted three years, four years. The woman is Sybil Hill 34, formerly of Manhattan, of Aspen, Colorado, a remarkable lookalike for Kennedy's wife, Carolyn. John was unhappy in his marriage, very unhappy. Sybil told the Inquirer the tender love Story. You know, they had to sort of goose her up a little bit. Close friends who know about the, the affair say she provided a sympathetic ear as John poured out his heart about his failing marriage. Now he reconnected with her after she left New York City. That's where they began their, their affair. He wasn't married at the time, but, you know, he always kept these women around. Julie Baker was another one. I'm going to mention her in a moment. Anyway, John flew into Aspen by himself to attend a bachelor party for a friend at the Caribou Club. These are all very details. Details are telling. It tells you this is likely true. Caribou Club in February 1998. John had met Sybil a few years earlier in New York, knew she'd moved to Aspen when he came to town. He came by the store where she worked, a cashmere shop, and picked her up for lunch. So he was seen, Sybil's friend added. They ate at a restaurant named Vinh Vin, which is a sort of out of the way spot, as John did with Sarah Jessica Parker. As your cultural criminal prosecutor, I am showing a pattern. He took her, she said, to out of the way places so they wouldn't be seen together again. That bled into Sex and the City too, but so he won't be caught cheating, he's got to hide these women and they have such low self esteem, they take it. John wore a baseball cap pulled down tightly as a disguise. Following lunch, they went back to her apartment. They had sex. Then he went off to the bachelor party. Then when he was done at the bachelor party at midnight, he called Sybil and told her not to pick her up. First of all, come pick me up like you're the help. Get a cab, you fucking asshole. Come pick her up so they can go back to her place and have sex again. But not in the front. She's got to pick. Pick him up in the back where all the trash is. Metaphor of all metaphor. He confessed his marriage to Carolyn was self destructing. After they had sex, John complained that his wife was open, quote, like this wonderfully cutesy, warm person one minute and an emotionless ice princess the next, next, the next. And that tracks. John wanted a baby, he said Carolyn did not. John was also upset with Carolyn's gay fashionista friends and her incessant jealousy. He said he was still Going to try to make the marriage work. Now, the other fucked up thing that this miniseries, so that. So the episode 8 date ends on John leaving the house and going to a hotel, the Stanhope Hotel. Also a Sex in the City similarity there. It's another show. And he stayed at the hotel up until they all left for the wedding on the Cape. The Kennedy wedding on the Cape. Now, this is how up John Kennedy was. Carolyn was up, too. Don't get me wrong. John had been begging and bullying Carolyn to the point where even his assistant, Rosemarie Terenzio, inserted herself and encouraged Carolyn to get on that plane and go to that wedding. Because otherwise the media would be talking about how John was their stag and clearly, clearly they were getting a divorce and the media would have been right. Everyone likes to say, you know, the media, they just like, they just root around and they make shit up. Journalists know what they're doing, okay? The night before that flight that John had bullied and harangued Carolyn into taking with him, he was at his hotel with an ex girlfriend named Julie Baker, who bore a substantial resemblance to Jackie, making it doubly fucked up. But, you know, she has always maintained, Julie Baker has, that they just chatted that night. She was always around. Whenever John called, she came running. So John is. In my opinion, she denies it, but, you know, it doesn't make any sense. John was likely fucking another woman hours before flying his wife against her will in a plane. That I believe. I believe that flight was a murder suicide mission. I do. The more I talk about it, you know, I theorize about it in Ask not, and I do offer evidence and Ask not, but the more I talk about it with you guys, the more I really do think so. And, you know, ask, sorry, love story in this last scene, we're gonna show it makes a nod to John's suicidality. It really does. The character here, as played, I think very well by Paul Anthony Kelly, is enumerating all of the things in his life that are going wrong. What remains unsaid, but we all know here, is that John Kennedy Jr. Had zero internal resources because he had been given a glide path through life. He was never told no. He had zero emotional calluses. He had zero emotional or psychological scar tissue. He didn't know how to deal with one major failure, let alone multiple losses. Grave losses. His cousin and best friend dying slowly and painfully of cancer at a very young age. His sister, his primary confidant, not speaking to him anymore. His magazine, his brainchild, was a laughingstock in New York City Media. It was failing, and nobody wanted to buy it and save it. His business partner, Michael Berman, had cut him out of his life. John thought it was kind of like a just a thing that Michael would get over because no one ever exited John F. Kennedy's life voluntarily. He was John fucking Kennedy Jr. Michael did, and John couldn't fucking believe it. Lastly, his wife, he knew, was fucking another man and was miserable, and his marriage wasn't going to make it. You think this guy was going to be able to handle that level of public humiliation? The mask coming off the world, recognizing that the emperor named John. John had no clothes. Here we go. There is nothing you can say to me that would hurt me more than you walking out that door. Do you know what it's like to see it in your eyes that I'm

[Rob Shooter]

failing at this marriage?

[Maureen Callahan]

Like I failed as a lawyer and now I'm failing as a magazine editor. I couldn't help my mom, and I can't help Anthony. And I don't think I can handle another failure right now. John, when I told you everything ends, you said, not us. What happened to not us? John, what happened to not us? What happened to not us? What happened to not us? Not us? What happened to not us? When I told you everything ends, you said, not us. What happened to not us? This isn't ending. Yes, it is. You're running away. I don't want to keep hurting you, Carolyn. I want to be with you. Then be with me. I don't want to fight. You have to. That's what people do. They fight.

[Rob Shooter]

Each day they fight.

[Maureen Callahan]

If we keep fighting, we're going to lose each other instead. He killed them. Now. Now we're going to get all into that, specifically in our episode next week, which will be covering the final episode that airs this Thursday on fx, the next day on Hulu. But I want to close this segment with what John F. Kennedy, Jr. Told his friend Steve Gillen, as recounted in Steve's book of his cousin Michael Kennedy's death. Death, who again was killed violently upon impact, smashing into a tree without a helmet while playing football on skis, having been told to knock it off by the resort, and doing what Kennedys do, ignoring it. That death was treated by the media as yet another Kennedy tragedy, as part of the Kennedy curse, much as John's imminent death and Carolyn and her sister Lawrence would be covered and perpetuated all the way into the year of our Lord 2026 by the demon known as Ryan Murphy about Michael's death here's what John Jr. Himself said to Steve, quoting from his book. They were warned about it, meaning Michael and the rest of the Kennedys. My aside, they were told to stop. They weren't warned. It wasn't an ask, it was a tell. But with the Kennedys, it's never a tell. It's always an ask. And the answer's always a fuck no. And now look what happened. John said. It's just the Kennedys acting like Kennedy's. That does it. That does it for this edition of the Nerve At Night. God that was packed. I loved it. We will be back on Friday with a full Nerve. If you haven't already, check out our [e-mail] be sure to subscribe. Plus nerve merch grab something for yourself or pick something up for a fellow hello [e-mail] we will see you back here on Friday for a full episode of the Nerve, where you will never guess what we're about to say next. Your new home is now ready. Dr. Horton, America's Builder has new homes that are ready today with new construction communities throughout the Puget Sound and Central Washington areas and more coming. Dr. Horton has the right home for you at Dr. Horton. We're still building with more construction, more communities and more homes available every day. Tap your screen now or visit drhorton.com to find your new home now ready. Dr. Horton, America's builder an equal housing opportunity builder get in the game with the College branded Venmo Debit Card. Rep your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit [e-mail] collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. select schools available. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo me termsterms max $100 cash back per month.